Dude, seriously, how to recover from a stall is like Flight School 101. I have only flown a real aircraft a few times (plus a ton of FS experience) and *I* know you do not DECREASE airspeed to do it. Mind boggling :blink:
Also, other articles have made it clear the chick was making all of $16,000 a year. I'm pretty sure like assistant managers at McDonalds make more than that. It gives a good indication of the value Colgan places on human life. :rolleyes:
QuoteRecorder picks up idle chitchat, then plane crashes
Capt. Marvin Renslow and Rebecca Shaw were the pilot and co-pilot, respectively, of a commuter plane bound for Buffalo, N.Y., when it crashed in February. A transcript recounts their final moments.
WASHINGTON — From their takeoff in Newark to about five miles from Buffalo Niagara International Airport — where their commuter plane plummeted to the ground and slammed into a house — the pilot and his first officer chatted, joked and yawned, according to a transcript of the cockpit voice recorder released on Tuesday by the National Transportation Safety Board.
But they failed to fly fast enough to keep the plane aloft, killing all 49 on board and one person on the ground.
Disclosures about the pilots' level of experience and issues of casual conversations during crucial times in the flight have raised questions about safety standards and the ability of airlines to monitor the training of their crews.
The pilot of Flight 3407, Capt. Marvin Renslow, 47, and his first officer, Rebecca Shaw, 24, of Maple Valley, talked about family, about other models of airplanes, about a Texas air traffic controller who liked to make jokes, and about their dislike of flying in the crowded and inclement Northeast.
Shaw also complained about a head cold and asked if they could descend early so that her ears could pop. Then, noting ice accumulating on the windshield, she said she would not mind getting more experience in ice before becoming a captain. But they did not talk much about the procedures for flying in ice.
The icing conditions were far from severe on the night of Feb. 12, however, and the plane was minimally affected by it, a fact made clear on the first of three days of hearings here before the safety board.
The crash occurred for a much simpler reason. According to documents released by the board, in a 27-second period while the pilots prepared their Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 for landing, they lowered the landing gear and cut the power.
The airspeed deteriorated from a comfortable 185 knots, or more than 200 miles an hour, to 131 knots, and when a warning system came on, the response by the captain was precisely the opposite of what it should have been. He pulled the nose of the turboprop up instead of pushing it down, leading to an aerodynamic stall, a condition in which the combination of speed and airplane angle reduces the flow of air over the wings so that they lose lift.
During the preparations for landing, the discussion between the pilot and his first officer had wandered. After completing an extremely hurried pre-landing checklist, Capt. Renslow announced, "rock and roll." But when they realized they were in trouble, with the plane pitching up and then rolling to one side, there was barely any conversation.
"Jesus Christ," said Renslow, 20 seconds before the crash, followed by, "we're down."
The final words heard on the recording were those of Shaw, who said, "We're ... " and then a scream.
In addition to violating a rule of the Federal Aviation Administration that forbids nonpertinent conversation when operating below 10,000 feet, the pilot and his first officer had also set themselves up for problems in the hours before they even arrived for work.
Renslow had flown to Newark from his home in Florida the previous evening and had apparently slept in the crew lounge of Newark Liberty International Airport, a room not much different from a frequent-flier-club lounge. Pilots are warned that sleeping there can lead to dismissal.
As for Shaw, she had left her home in Maple Valley, and taken an evening flight in the cockpit of a FedEx cargo jet to Memphis, and in the middle of the night transferred to the cockpit of another plane bound for Newark.
According to board officials, at one point Colgan Air, which operated the flight to Buffalo for Continental, warned crew members who lived far from Newark, its base of operations, not to try to fly in on the same day a shift began.
Another issue is the pairing of two pilots with little experience. Renslow had only about 110 hours in the Dash 8, and Shaw fewer than 800 hours.
Indeed, Renslow told Shaw as they descended that he had not seen as much ice build up on the wings in a long time, and that he had only 625 flying hours in the region.
Shaw replied that was "not much" for when he got hired, adding that she "wouldn't mind going through a winter in the Northeast before I have to upgrade to captain."
Throughout the flight, Renslow appeared to take the role of a mentor, describing his training and providing Shaw with advice about her career options.
"I've never seen icing conditions," she said. "I've never de-iced. I've never seen any — I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that and make those kinds of calls. You know, I'd've freaked out. I'd've, like, seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh, we were going to crash."
The safety board, which is gathering evidence during these three days of hearings, will probably not issue a report until early next year.
Wow. hard to imagine that all those people died because...what, exactly? Nothing really "went wrong" mechanically or out of the ordinary, just not paying attention to a deteriorating situation, and then not reacting properly to a "routine" emergency that both of them had surely practiced a hundred times in simulators.
This is going to become a case study in pilot training.
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 01:10:51 PM
Also, other articles have made it clear the chick was making all of $16,000 a year.
Working fulltime? If that's the case, I'd crash the plane on general principle. Shit, people make better money than that working at the drive-through.
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2009, 01:30:24 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 01:10:51 PM
Also, other articles have made it clear the chick was making all of $16,000 a year.
Working fulltime? If that's the case, I'd crash the plane on general principle. Shit, people make better money than that working at the drive-through.
I don't know if she was working more or less than 40 hours a week, but another article I saw indicated at one point she was living in Norfolk, Va. while working as a pilot and moonlighting at a Starbucks to make ends meet. :mad:
"Renslow had flown to Newark from his home in Florida the previous evening and had apparently slept in the crew lounge of Newark Liberty International Airport, a room not much different from a frequent-flier-club lounge. Pilots are warned that sleeping there can lead to dismissal."
Where was Colgan management? A homeless Captain. This whole crew story is so tragic and trashy. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 01:25:11 PM
Wow. hard to imagine that all those people died because...what, exactly? Nothing really "went wrong" mechanically or out of the ordinary, just not paying attention to a deteriorating situation, and then not reacting properly to a "routine" emergency that both of them had surely practiced a hundred times in simulators.
This is going to become a case study in pilot training.
The only other thing worth mentioning (or reminding people of, since we've discussed crashes on Languish before) is that human error is usually the cause of crashes, and often it comes down to mind-boggling stupidity or just "dumb luck" catastrophic mistakes. The best example ever is the Aeroflot crash on a Moscow-Hong Kong flight that happened because a pilot
let his kid play with the controls in mid-flight. His kid yanked the control stick which forced the autopilot off, but the pilots somehow didn't realize it had shut off in time.
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 01:25:11 PM
...that both of them had surely practiced a hundred times in simulators.
This is going to become a case study in pilot training.
I don't think either of them spent any time in simulator.
Not exactly Sully.
Yes but as we see here, these Regional carriers are pretty Mickey Mouse Club.
Fortunately I do not have to fly them (and in fact select a Mainline carrier even if times are not good/longer layover) at all.
Quote from: citizen k on May 13, 2009, 01:37:30 PMI don't think either of them spent any time in simulator.
:huh: Unpossible, unless you mean they spent no time on a simulator working through this particular scenario on this particular aircraft model.
Quote from: Habsburg on May 13, 2009, 01:38:09 PM
Yes but as we see here, these Regional carriers are pretty Mickey Mouse Club.
Fortunately I do not have to fly them (and in fact select a Mainline carrier even if times are not good/longer layover) at all.
:yes:
One time I had to fly Comair from Atlanta to Gainesville, Florida. I was seated in a wing aisle and thus had a great view of the turboprop engine leaking oil the entire flight. :(
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 01:35:24 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 01:25:11 PM
Wow. hard to imagine that all those people died because...what, exactly? Nothing really "went wrong" mechanically or out of the ordinary, just not paying attention to a deteriorating situation, and then not reacting properly to a "routine" emergency that both of them had surely practiced a hundred times in simulators.
This is going to become a case study in pilot training.
The only other thing worth mentioning (or reminding people of, since we've discussed crashes on Languish before) is that human error is usually the cause of crashes, and often it comes down to mind-boggling stupidity or just "dumb luck" catastrophic mistakes. The best example ever is the Aeroflot crash on a Moscow-Hong Kong flight that happened because a pilot let his kid play with the controls in mid-flight. His kid yanked the control stick which forced the autopilot off, but the pilots somehow didn't realize it had shut off in time.
Yikes.
I guess I always imagine that most "pilot error" accidents are an error on the pilots part in reaction to soem actual emergency, or unusual situation that they should have been able to deal with, even if they did not.
This was not the case at all though. And they weren't really fucking around either - just not paying attention when they should have, and then screwing up when something went wrong.
What's the suage situation?
The co-pilot was pretty hot, too. The pilot may have been distracted by this. NO HOT CHICKS IN THE COCKPIT. :mad:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.postchronicle.com%2Fimages%2Farticles%2Frebecca_shaw_flight_3407.jpg&hash=fe796d7238202089f99587e75ece6756fe172920)
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 02:34:31 PM
The co-pilot was pretty hot, too. The pilot may have been distracted by this. NO HOT CHICKS IN THE COCKPIT. :mad:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.postchronicle.com%2Fimages%2Farticles%2Frebecca_shaw_flight_3407.jpg&hash=fe796d7238202089f99587e75ece6756fe172920)
Butterface
How much does this illustrate the gap in competency in pilots between major airlines and the regional commuter world? Or is it just an outlier?
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 02:37:07 PM
How much does this illustrate the gap in competency in pilots between major airlines and the regional commuter world? Or is it just an outlier?
There must be some correlation between salary and competency. My co-worker's husband is a UPS veteran pilot, who (though she's never been specific) must make six figures-plus to fund their lifestyle, and he's been with them for 13 years I think, and prior to that was a C-130 pilot in the Coast Guard.
Regional airlines. What an interesting concept.
Quote from: garbon on May 13, 2009, 02:42:07 PM
Regional airlines. What an interesting concept.
I hate open mike night.
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 01:25:11 PM
This is going to become a case study in pilot training.
And damages lawsuits. :P
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 13, 2009, 02:48:00 PMMy standards have kept me safe and sound since 1986.
:rolleyes: You would have extended her flaps and ridden her in for the touchdown flare, admit it.
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 02:49:03 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 13, 2009, 02:48:00 PMMy standards have kept me safe and sound since 1986.
:rolleyes: You would have extended her flaps and ridden her in for the touchdown flare, admit it.
Seriously, I doubt it.
$16,000? Pilots (Lufthansa) here make that per month.
Quote from: Zanza2 on May 13, 2009, 03:01:45 PM
$16,000? Pilots (Lufthansa) here make that per month.
But they probably know their letters and shit.
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 02:49:03 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 13, 2009, 02:48:00 PMMy standards have kept me safe and sound since 1986.
:rolleyes: You would have extended her flaps and ridden her in for the touchdown flare, admit it.
She's too old for him. You know what MB loves about high school girls and child brides? He gets older, but they stay the same age.
Quote from: Neil on May 13, 2009, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 02:49:03 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 13, 2009, 02:48:00 PMMy standards have kept me safe and sound since 1986.
:rolleyes: You would have extended her flaps and ridden her in for the touchdown flare, admit it.
She's too old for him. You know what MB loves about high school girls and child brides? He gets older, but they stay the same age.
:D
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 02:49:03 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 13, 2009, 02:48:00 PMMy standards have kept me safe and sound since 1986.
:rolleyes: You would have extended her flaps and ridden her in for the touchdown flare, admit it.
I would screw up the landing at the last minute so that we had to circle around and try again. :boff:
Quote from: lustindarkness on May 13, 2009, 03:14:06 PM
I would screw up the landing at the last minute so that we had to circle around and try again. :boff:
:lol:
"Abort! Abort! Abo---ohhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!" :perv:
This didn't have to happen, as you guys are pointing out. The aircraft stalled, even had an auto device to lower the nose and increase airspeed in case the aircraft got close to a stall. But the pilot reacted wrong, and practicing stalls and recovery from them has to be something pilots train for a lot.
Also, the copilot was saying that she'd never flown in icing conditions, was untrained and/or was unfamiliar with the process. Have to wonder why she was flying in cold weather without proper training. Maybe this kind of thing happens a lot, and as long as one flight crew member was familiar with icing then that fits FAA regs? No idea on that.
She must have practiced icing situations in the simulator, too, but her prior flying experience was mostly in the US southwest. If you read the cockpit transcripts, IIRC the captain was bragging to her about how he was OSSUM at dealing with icing situations. :lol:
Good bye, Colgan Air, you won't be missed.
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2009, 04:09:20 PM
Good bye, Colgan Air, you won't be missed.
The thing is that there are like dozens of other regional carriers that are exactly like Colgan.
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 04:15:35 PM
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2009, 04:09:20 PM
Good bye, Colgan Air, you won't be missed.
The thing is that there are like dozens of other regional carriers that are exactly like Colgan.
But none of them crashed an airplane due to incredible incompetence, so they are fine. For now.
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 04:15:35 PM
Quote from: DGuller on May 13, 2009, 04:09:20 PM
Good bye, Colgan Air, you won't be missed.
The thing is that there are like dozens of other regional carriers that are exactly like Colgan.
Probably, but their shocking incompetence won't be in the news until they kill their own planeload of passengers. This is starting to remind me of the Greek budget airline accident, where the plane was left unpressurized, and everyone was killed once the pilots ascended to a high altitude.
That's the accident I talked about in the previous post: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios_Airways_Flight_522 . I guess people weren't killed when the plane ascended, they were killed when it descended into the mountain once everyone lost consciousness and the plane ran out of fuel. Not only did the airline stop operating, but some fo their executives are facing criminal charges.
Quote from: Caliga on May 13, 2009, 02:34:31 PM
The co-pilot was pretty hot, too. The pilot may have been distracted by this. NO HOT CHICKS IN THE COCKPIT. :mad:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.postchronicle.com%2Fimages%2Farticles%2Frebecca_shaw_flight_3407.jpg&hash=fe796d7238202089f99587e75ece6756fe172920)
Fat.
Quote from: Siege on May 13, 2009, 05:36:22 PM
Fat. Not anorexic and pre-pubescent looking.
:)
I don't Cal to be my wingman. He'll direct me to tubbos, uggos, and butterfaces.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 14, 2009, 07:06:53 AM
I don't Cal to be my wingman. He'll direct me to tubbos, uggos, and butterfaces.
:( I want to be your: Goose.
Quote from: Caliga on May 14, 2009, 07:13:03 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 14, 2009, 07:06:53 AM
I don't Cal to be my wingman. He'll direct me to tubbos, uggos, and butterfaces.
:( I want to be your: Goose.
Are you: Wedge Antilles or Porkins?
Test: failed.
Hey, Cal, you can be my wingman, anyday! :)
Quote from: garbon on May 14, 2009, 11:19:54 AM
Hey, Cal, you can be my wingman, anyday! :)
Yahoo? :huh:
<_<
:huh:
:unsure:
uh....
WE BUILT THIS CITY, WE BUILT THIS CITY ON ROCK AND ROLLL....
:huh:
I feel a-tragic like I'm Marlon Brando
errr....
SHE'S SO MEAN, BUT I DON'T CARE
I LOVE HER EYES AND HER WILD, WILD HAIR....
I like peeing on my own thread. :yeah:
You're my obsession
Who do you want me to be
To make you sleep with me
I try not to pee in public.
Quote from: Martinus on May 13, 2009, 02:46:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on May 13, 2009, 01:25:11 PM
This is going to become a case study in pilot training.
And damages lawsuits. :P
Case study they won't teach in B school: if you are going to poorly train commercial airline pilots and pay them so little they have to work part time at Starbucks, stay thinly capitalized. :blush:
Question for the lawyers: the victims families seem to have a favorable case against Colgan, but it seems possible they will be bankrupt soon. What are the implications for a lawsuit? Settle quickly before the assets are gone, go after third parties, proceed with the normal course of litigation in order to collect from the bankruptcy assets?
Quote from: garbon on May 14, 2009, 11:19:54 AM
Hey, Cal, you can be my wingman, anyday! :)
Bullshit, you can be mine.
HIGHWAY TO THE DANGER ZONE
Cal would flame out over the titty gulf, and would need to be hoisted out by a Sea King.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 14, 2009, 03:44:32 PM
Question for the lawyers: the victims families seem to have a favorable case against Colgan, but it seems possible they will be bankrupt soon. What are the implications for a lawsuit? Settle quickly before the assets are gone, go after third parties, proceed with the normal course of litigation in order to collect from the bankruptcy assets?
Also,
would any third parties be culpable, unless Colgan relied on third-party sources for training and pilot certification?
Quote from: DontSayBanana on May 14, 2009, 05:03:12 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on May 14, 2009, 03:44:32 PM
Question for the lawyers: the victims families seem to have a favorable case against Colgan, but it seems possible they will be bankrupt soon. What are the implications for a lawsuit? Settle quickly before the assets are gone, go after third parties, proceed with the normal course of litigation in order to collect from the bankruptcy assets?
Also, would any third parties be culpable, unless Colgan relied on third-party sources for training and pilot certification?
You need to start thinking like an attorney: who trained the pilots, who gave them their licenses, who made the aircraft parts that may have contributed, who made the aircraft, should the aircraft have been allowed to fly in those conditions (who made that decision), who programmed the autopilot, who was responsible for maintainance, who sold the tickets to the unsafe airline, who saw the pilots before they flew and should have known they were unfit to fly, were there any people on the flight for business that could expose their employers to liability, should air traffic control had kept them out of that region due to weather, and probably a few more parties I'm not thinking of right now.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 14, 2009, 07:47:55 AM
Quote from: Caliga on May 14, 2009, 07:13:03 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 14, 2009, 07:06:53 AM
I don't Cal to be my wingman. He'll direct me to tubbos, uggos, and butterfaces.
:( I want to be your: Goose.
Are you: Wedge Antilles or Porkins?
An interesting question. On the one hand, Porkins and his entire wing were annihilated. In Wedge's case, 2 out of 3 wing members survived, but Wedge bailed on his wingmen, and only the timely intervention of Han Solo saved Luke. Biggs wasn't so lucky.
Now, because you'd clearly be Biggs in this situation (you are definitely a beta male, as evidenced by your attraction to sub-optimal females (juveniles) and your choice of career (HR attracts mainly broken people who hate themselves and everyone else)), I would suggest that the right answer is Porkins. If you are going to go down in flames, you want your whole party to go down in flames. You don't seem like the type to be satisfied by hanging out at the club by yourself while the alpha male busts off a piece of ass in the back seat of your car out in the parking lot.
Quote from: Neil on May 14, 2009, 07:09:43 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 14, 2009, 07:47:55 AM
Quote from: Caliga on May 14, 2009, 07:13:03 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 14, 2009, 07:06:53 AM
I don't Cal to be my wingman. He'll direct me to tubbos, uggos, and butterfaces.
:( I want to be your: Goose.
Are you: Wedge Antilles or Porkins?
An interesting question. On the one hand, Porkins and his entire wing were annihilated. In Wedge's case, 2 out of 3 wing members survived, but Wedge bailed on his wingmen, and only the timely intervention of Han Solo saved Luke. Biggs wasn't so lucky.
Now, because you'd clearly be Biggs in this situation (you are definitely a beta male, as evidenced by your attraction to sub-optimal females (juveniles) and your choice of career (HR attracts mainly broken people who hate themselves and everyone else)), I would suggest that the right answer is Porkins. If you are going to go down in flames, you want your whole party to go down in flames. You don't seem like the type to be satisfied by hanging out at the club by yourself while the alpha male busts off a piece of ass in the back seat of your car out in the parking lot.
:D
Quote from: Neil on May 14, 2009, 07:09:43 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 14, 2009, 07:47:55 AM
Quote from: Caliga on May 14, 2009, 07:13:03 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 14, 2009, 07:06:53 AM
I don't Cal to be my wingman. He'll direct me to tubbos, uggos, and butterfaces.
:( I want to be your: Goose.
Are you: Wedge Antilles or Porkins?
An interesting question. On the one hand, Porkins and his entire wing were annihilated. In Wedge's case, 2 out of 3 wing members survived, but Wedge bailed on his wingmen, and only the timely intervention of Han Solo saved Luke. Biggs wasn't so lucky.
Now, because you'd clearly be Biggs in this situation (you are definitely a beta male, as evidenced by your attraction to sub-optimal females (juveniles) and your choice of career (HR attracts mainly broken people who hate themselves and everyone else)), I would suggest that the right answer is Porkins. If you are going to go down in flames, you want your whole party to go down in flames. You don't seem like the type to be satisfied by hanging out at the club by yourself while the alpha male busts off a piece of ass in the back seat of your car out in the parking lot.
:lol: POTM worthy.
Quote from: Fireblade on May 14, 2009, 04:43:32 PM
Bullshit, you can be mine.
HIGHWAY TO THE DANGER ZONE
Aren't wingmen supposed to help you look better? I'm not sure how I could help you with that.
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2009, 09:29:39 AM
Quote from: Fireblade on May 14, 2009, 04:43:32 PM
Bullshit, you can be mine.
HIGHWAY TO THE DANGER ZONE
Aren't wingmen supposed to help you look better? I'm not sure how I could help you with that.
Queer Eye for the Hillbilly.
Quote from: Neil on May 15, 2009, 09:48:18 AM
Queer Eye for the Hillbilly.
It seems like all those gays helped people do was turn from straight to gay.
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2009, 10:00:51 AM
Quote from: Neil on May 15, 2009, 09:48:18 AM
Queer Eye for the Hillbilly.
It seems like all those gays helped people do was turn from straight to gay.
Fortunately for you, Fireblade's halfway there. You people are generally quite lazy, so that should appeal to you.
Quote from: Neil on May 15, 2009, 10:40:53 AM
Fortunately for you, Fireblade's halfway there. You people are generally quite lazy, so that should appeal to you.
Why would I want him to be gay?
Quote from: garbon on May 15, 2009, 09:29:39 AM
Quote from: Fireblade on May 14, 2009, 04:43:32 PM
Bullshit, you can be mine.
HIGHWAY TO THE DANGER ZONE
Aren't wingmen supposed to help you look better? I'm not sure how I could help you with that.
Fireblade will look better in comparison.