Colgan Air Flight 3407 crash update

[Caliga]

Dude, seriously, how to recover from a stall is like Flight School 101.  I have only flown a real aircraft a few times (plus a ton of FS experience) and *I* know you do not DECREASE airspeed to do it.  Mind boggling

Also, other articles have made it clear the chick was making all of $16,000 a year.  I'm pretty sure like assistant managers at McDonalds make more than that.  It gives a good indication of the value Colgan places on human life. 

Recorder picks up idle chitchat, then plane crashes

Capt. Marvin Renslow and Rebecca Shaw were the pilot and co-pilot, respectively, of a commuter plane bound for Buffalo, N.Y., when it crashed in February. A transcript recounts their final moments.

WASHINGTON — From their takeoff in Newark to about five miles from Buffalo Niagara International Airport — where their commuter plane plummeted to the ground and slammed into a house — the pilot and his first officer chatted, joked and yawned, according to a transcript of the cockpit voice recorder released on Tuesday by the National Transportation Safety Board.

But they failed to fly fast enough to keep the plane aloft, killing all 49 on board and one person on the ground.

Disclosures about the pilots' level of experience and issues of casual conversations during crucial times in the flight have raised questions about safety standards and the ability of airlines to monitor the training of their crews.

The pilot of Flight 3407, Capt. Marvin Renslow, 47, and his first officer, Rebecca Shaw, 24, of Maple Valley, talked about family, about other models of airplanes, about a Texas air traffic controller who liked to make jokes, and about their dislike of flying in the crowded and inclement Northeast.

Shaw also complained about a head cold and asked if they could descend early so that her ears could pop. Then, noting ice accumulating on the windshield, she said she would not mind getting more experience in ice before becoming a captain. But they did not talk much about the procedures for flying in ice.

The icing conditions were far from severe on the night of Feb. 12, however, and the plane was minimally affected by it, a fact made clear on the first of three days of hearings here before the safety board.

The crash occurred for a much simpler reason. According to documents released by the board, in a 27-second period while the pilots prepared their Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 for landing, they lowered the landing gear and cut the power.

The airspeed deteriorated from a comfortable 185 knots, or more than 200 miles an hour, to 131 knots, and when a warning system came on, the response by the captain was precisely the opposite of what it should have been. He pulled the nose of the turboprop up instead of pushing it down, leading to an aerodynamic stall, a condition in which the combination of speed and airplane angle reduces the flow of air over the wings so that they lose lift.

During the preparations for landing, the discussion between the pilot and his first officer had wandered. After completing an extremely hurried pre-landing checklist, Capt. Renslow announced, "rock and roll." But when they realized they were in trouble, with the plane pitching up and then rolling to one side, there was barely any conversation.

"Jesus Christ," said Renslow, 20 seconds before the crash, followed by, "we're down."

The final words heard on the recording were those of Shaw, who said, "We're ... " and then a scream.

In addition to violating a rule of the Federal Aviation Administration that forbids nonpertinent conversation when operating below 10,000 feet, the pilot and his first officer had also set themselves up for problems in the hours before they even arrived for work.

Renslow had flown to Newark from his home in Florida the previous evening and had apparently slept in the crew lounge of Newark Liberty International Airport, a room not much different from a frequent-flier-club lounge. Pilots are warned that sleeping there can lead to dismissal.

As for Shaw, she had left her home in Maple Valley, and taken an evening flight in the cockpit of a FedEx cargo jet to Memphis, and in the middle of the night transferred to the cockpit of another plane bound for Newark.

According to board officials, at one point Colgan Air, which operated the flight to Buffalo for Continental, warned crew members who lived far from Newark, its base of operations, not to try to fly in on the same day a shift began.

Another issue is the pairing of two pilots with little experience. Renslow had only about 110 hours in the Dash 8, and Shaw fewer than 800 hours.

Indeed, Renslow told Shaw as they descended that he had not seen as much ice build up on the wings in a long time, and that he had only 625 flying hours in the region.

Shaw replied that was "not much" for when he got hired, adding that she "wouldn't mind going through a winter in the Northeast before I have to upgrade to captain."

Throughout the flight, Renslow appeared to take the role of a mentor, describing his training and providing Shaw with advice about her career options.

"I've never seen icing conditions," she said. "I've never de-iced. I've never seen any — I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that and make those kinds of calls. You know, I'd've freaked out. I'd've, like, seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh, we were going to crash."

The safety board, which is gathering evidence during these three days of hearings, will probably not issue a report until early next year.

[Berkut]

Wow. hard to imagine that all those people died because...what, exactly? Nothing really "went wrong" mechanically or out of the ordinary, just not paying attention to a deteriorating situation, and then not reacting properly to a "routine" emergency that both of them had surely practiced a hundred times in simulators.

This is going to become a case study in pilot training.

[Neil]

Also, other articles have made it clear the chick was making all of $16,000 a year.

Working fulltime?  If that's the case, I'd crash the plane on general principle.  Shit, people make better money than that working at the drive-through.

[Caliga]

Also, other articles have made it clear the chick was making all of $16,000 a year.

Working fulltime?  If that's the case, I'd crash the plane on general principle.  Shit, people make better money than that working at the drive-through.

I don't know if she was working more or less than 40 hours a week, but another article I saw indicated at one point she was living in Norfolk, Va. while working as a pilot and moonlighting at a Starbucks to make ends meet. 

[Habsburg]

"Renslow had flown to Newark from his home in Florida the previous evening and had apparently slept in the crew lounge of Newark Liberty International Airport, a room not much different from a frequent-flier-club lounge. Pilots are warned that sleeping there can lead to dismissal."

Where was Colgan management?  A homeless Captain.  This whole crew story is so tragic and trashy. 

[Caliga]

Wow. hard to imagine that all those people died because...what, exactly? Nothing really "went wrong" mechanically or out of the ordinary, just not paying attention to a deteriorating situation, and then not reacting properly to a "routine" emergency that both of them had surely practiced a hundred times in simulators.

This is going to become a case study in pilot training.

The only other thing worth mentioning (or reminding people of, since we've discussed crashes on Languish before) is that human error is usually the cause of crashes, and often it comes down to mind-boggling stupidity or just "dumb luck" catastrophic mistakes.  The best example ever is the Aeroflot crash on a Moscow-Hong Kong flight that happened because a pilot let his kid play with the controls in mid-flight.  His kid yanked the control stick which forced the autopilot off, but the pilots somehow didn't realize it had shut off in time.

[citizen k]

...that both of them had surely practiced a hundred times in simulators.

This is going to become a case study in pilot training.

I don't think either of them spent any time in simulator.

[The Brain]

Not exactly Sully.

[Habsburg]

Yes but as we see here, these Regional carriers are pretty Mickey Mouse Club.

Fortunately I do not have to fly them (and in fact select a Mainline carrier even if times are not good/longer layover) at all.

[Caliga]

I don't think either of them spent any time in simulator.

Unpossible, unless you mean they spent no time on a simulator working through this particular scenario on this particular aircraft model.

[Caliga]

Yes but as we see here, these Regional carriers are pretty Mickey Mouse Club.

Fortunately I do not have to fly them (and in fact select a Mainline carrier even if times are not good/longer layover) at all.

One time I had to fly Comair from Atlanta to Gainesville, Florida.  I was seated in a wing aisle and thus had a great view of the turboprop engine leaking oil the entire flight. 

[Berkut]

Wow. hard to imagine that all those people died because...what, exactly? Nothing really "went wrong" mechanically or out of the ordinary, just not paying attention to a deteriorating situation, and then not reacting properly to a "routine" emergency that both of them had surely practiced a hundred times in simulators.

This is going to become a case study in pilot training.

The only other thing worth mentioning (or reminding people of, since we've discussed crashes on Languish before) is that human error is usually the cause of crashes, and often it comes down to mind-boggling stupidity or just "dumb luck" catastrophic mistakes.  The best example ever is the Aeroflot crash on a Moscow-Hong Kong flight that happened because a pilot let his kid play with the controls in mid-flight.  His kid yanked the control stick which forced the autopilot off, but the pilots somehow didn't realize it had shut off in time.

Yikes.

I guess I always imagine that most "pilot error" accidents are an error on the pilots part in reaction to soem actual emergency, or unusual situation that they should have been able to deal with, even if they did not.

This was not the case at all though. And they weren't really fucking around either - just not paying attention when they should have, and then screwing up when something went wrong.

[The Brain]

What's the suage situation?

[Caliga]

The co-pilot was pretty hot, too.  The pilot may have been distracted by this.  NO HOT CHICKS IN THE COCKPIT. 

[Ed Anger]

The co-pilot was pretty hot, too.  The pilot may have been distracted by this.  NO HOT CHICKS IN THE COCKPIT. 

Butterface