A question, inspired by a nationalist Irish coworker.
Why was there never an attempt by England to force the Irish to convert to Anglicism (Irishism? A Church of Ireland?) You had the Ulster plantations, but those weren't quite the same thing; that was an attempt at settlement, not an attempt to break Irish culture.
Or was there an attempt, and it was just so unsuccessful that there's no trace of it today?
England didn't have any missionaries, its innovative slider was too high.
The Ulster Plantation was about it. Cromwell pretty much ruined the chance of conversion, anyway.
Wilie has an article about half-hearted attempts.
I thought that the entire Orangist movement was about it, no? The fact is that where missionary activity is closely correlated with imperialistic colonisation/occupation, it is rarely effective, as the local church is seen / acts as a supporter of local nationalism as well. This is the same reason why Poland never really managed to convert Ukraine (or, during the brief sojourn there, Russia) to Catholicism, while itself staying Catholic during being partitioned between three powers, out of which only one was Catholic, and the other two were Orthodox and Protestant, respectively.
Quote from: DGuller on July 03, 2012, 07:29:30 AM
England didn't have any missionaries, its innovative slider was too high.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
God would not allow it.
Cause nobody cared. The "natives" were illiterate, irrelevant and subjugated. There were substantial numbers of protestant Irishmen and to the whole world as well as the Irish elites the natives were merely wallowing in backward Catholicism and once improved they would convert to civilized religion. Their Catholicism was just as relevant as any Englishman's Catholicism - it was a social, economic and political stigma. The great Irish revolts were usually led and organized by Presbyterians rather than Catholics (viz Wolf Tone). It's not until the Romantic Nationalism of the 1800's and the Emancipation Debates in England that Catholicism becomes associated with Irish Nationalism.
In short English tolerance (their innovative slider) which didn't much differentiate between an English Catholic (to be despised and ignored as much as possible) and an Irish Catholic.
I'll have more when I get home from work. But a Church of Ireland was established (in all senses of the word) and oddly enough a number od great nationalists, like Yeats, came from it.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 03, 2012, 09:03:42 AM
I'll have more when I get home from work. But a Church of Ireland was established (in all senses of the word) and oddly enough a number od great nationalists, like Yeats, came from it.
Yep. Here's the brief wiki article I mentioned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation_in_Ireland
Are there any examples of attempts by Protestants to convert Catholics, or vice versa?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2012, 01:58:33 PM
Are there any examples of attempts by Protestants to convert Catholics, or vice versa?
Elaborate.
Because not even the Christian god wants the Irish.
Quote from: ulmont on July 03, 2012, 02:08:31 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2012, 01:58:33 PM
Are there any examples of attempts by Protestants to convert Catholics, or vice versa?
Elaborate.
Elaborate what?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2012, 01:58:33 PM
Are there any examples of attempts by Protestants to convert Catholics, or vice versa?
Yes.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2012, 01:58:33 PM
Are there any examples of attempts by Protestants to convert Catholics, or vice versa?
No they just magically ended up that way.
There were plenty of attempts of convert Ireland to Protestantism. Less interested in converting the Irish.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2012, 02:18:35 PM
Quote from: ulmont on July 03, 2012, 02:08:31 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2012, 01:58:33 PM
Are there any examples of attempts by Protestants to convert Catholics, or vice versa?
Elaborate.
Elaborate what?
On what you're looking for. Otherwise the answer is an obvious "Yes."
Quote from: ulmont on July 03, 2012, 05:25:03 PM
On what you're looking for. Otherwise the answer is an obvious "Yes."
Give examples.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2012, 05:29:06 PM
Quote from: ulmont on July 03, 2012, 05:25:03 PM
On what you're looking for. Otherwise the answer is an obvious "Yes."
Give examples.
Martin Luther? Calvin? John Knox? The Counter-Reformation? The 30 Years War?
Okay, I'm back from work so I can answer a bit more fully. There was an attempt at a Reformation in Ireland, it's probably the least successful magisterial Reformation in Europe. The primary cause of that failure was that it clashed directly with every other aspect of Tudor policy towards Ireland which, in turn, left Ireland open to probably the most successful Counter-Reformation in a non-Catholic state.
The Church under Henry was largely left to the existing Lord Deputy who was himself religiously loyal to Henry but rather conservative. He was also very experienced and used to dealing with the Irish chiefs. He managed, more or less, to get all the Bishops in Ireland to move to the Church of Ireland (with Henry as its head). Far greater effort was made under Edward VI. A Latin Book of Common Prayer and approved Bible were issued to use until Gaelic ones could be produced. With the exception of Ulster the Book of Common Prayer and Protestant (Latin) Bible were in widespread use when Mary came to the throne. But the Reformation is never as rigorously enforced in Ireland. The Chantry-houses weren't banned until the 1620s and there are municipally funded Corpus Christi parades right up until the 1630s.
One of the ironies of Irish history is that a lot of the problems start with the Catholic Queen Mary. It is under Mary, inspired in large part by her husband, that plantations of the 'new English' begin in Ireland. They weren't initially a religious policy. Rather it was an economic and foreign policy decision to bind Ireland to England through colonial exploitation.
Elizabeth's reign sums up the difficulties of the Reformation in Ireland. She personally sponsored and funded the production of a Gaelic Book of Common Prayer and Bible (neither was finished until the 1680s, as it happened) and established Trinity College which was to provide a firm educational basis for the Protestant ascendancy. But it was all rather slow, it's only after 1600 that there's any significant Protestant literature in Gaelic.
At the same time plantations were increased and became the dominant English policy towards Ireland, especially towards the end of her reign, and both the Irish and the Old English increasingly tie Catholicism with their position against the encroaching New English. In addition they often allied with Spain which was the centre of the Counter-Reformation and by the end of Elizabeth's reign Ireland is being reclaimed by Jesuits and Franciscans, both of whom have a permanent presence by the 1590s (and the Jesuits have a Church in Dublin a couple of decades later). It's at this point that the link is made between a sort of enduring Catholicism and Celtic Christianity. From the 1590s until the civil war there six separate training colleges are established in Spain just for Ireland.
After the Tudors you get the focus on the Ulster settlement. Ulster was the most Catholic and most conservative and most recalcitrant province. Militarily it was the heart of all Irish revolts and so it was to be broken, largely by the import of Scots from the borders. This, in James's reign, and the increasing presence of Puritanism in the English settlers at the end of Elizabeth's is another source of conflict because they push the established Protestant Church of Ireland in a far more Calvinist direction - directly inspired by Scotland. They think there's too much Popery, Latin and tolerance of damned ways by the Church - as established by Henry and Edward.
Diarmuid MacCulloch, who I've stolen lots of this from, makes an interesting comparison between Ireland and Wales. Both were historically religiously very conservative. But there's a Welsh Bible, Book of Common Prayer and Welsh Protestant literature by the 1570s. There's a Welsh college established in Oxford. Interestingly the new Protestant class in Wales makes a link between Celtic Christianity and Protestantism, against corrupt Romanism - like continental Protestants see themselves as succeeding the Church Fathers. Above all, however, Wales remains a province the Tudors are sensitive to and a nation rather than a colony to be exploited. The consequence is that Wales has one of the most thorough-going Reformations in the British Isles and is probably as devoutly, Low Church Protestant as, say, East Anglia.
In Ireland on the other hand none of the intellectual stuff happens quickly enough and the colonial policy means it's ineffective anyway. The consequence there is a Jesuit Church complete with Counter-Reformation high altar, confession boxes and all the rest - and, a few hundred miles to the North, a Protestant Cathedral in Londonderry based on the design of the 'ideal' English village parish church of the time.
Quote from: Faeelin on July 03, 2012, 07:26:51 AMOr was there an attempt, and it was just so unsuccessful that there's no trace of it today?
To be fair the Church of Ireland still exists. It's probably 5% of the Irish population and there are many great Irish Protestant figures like Swift, Yeats and Wolfe Tone.
Weren't the Tudors themselves Welsh? Surely that must have played a part.
That's what I meant by them always being aware of and more sensitive to the Welsh. But they played up their Englishness and, really, by Elizabeth it's pretty irrelevant.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 03, 2012, 08:17:21 PM
That's what I meant by them always being aware of and more sensitive to the Welsh. But they played up their Englishness and, really, by Elizabeth it's pretty irrelevant.
Yeah for sure.
Sheilbh, that is interesting. What book was it you got this from?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2012, 01:58:33 PM
Are there any examples of attempts by Protestants to convert Catholics, or vice versa?
Are you talking about Ireland or in general? :huh:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2012, 08:05:00 PM
Weren't the Tudors themselves Welsh? Surely that must have played a part.
Wha...? :huh:
Henry V married Catherine de Valois. After his early death she had an affair with a Welshman called Owen Tudor, there were several children. Henry VII was her/his grandson, though his claim to the throne was as a great-great-grandson of John of Gaunt of course; via his mother Margaret of Beaufort who married Edmund Tudor (Catherine and Owen's eldest son).
I recommend reading up, at least a little bit, on the "Old English" in Ireland Faeelin. These were the Anglo-Norman types who started turning up in Ireland back in the 12th century. They were Catholic of course and mostly remained Catholic at the time of the Reformation. Prominent families such as the Fitzgeralds and Butlers are examples. They are an additional complexity in Ireland's affairs that seem to be often forgotten.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 04, 2012, 02:02:43 AM
Henry V married Catherine de Valois. After his early death she had an affair with a Welshman called Owen Tudor, there were several children. Henry VII was her/his grandson, though his claim to the throne was as a great-great-grandson of John of Gaunt of course; via his mother Margaret of Beaufort who married Edmund Tudor (Catherine and Owen's eldest son).
I know that. That does not make the Reformation-era Tudors culturally Welsh (Henry VIII was born near London etc.) and even if they were Welsh, the alleged influence of their Welshness on their treatment of Irish catholicism went completely over my head.
Quote from: Martinus on July 04, 2012, 02:35:16 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on July 04, 2012, 02:02:43 AM
Henry V married Catherine de Valois. After his early death she had an affair with a Welshman called Owen Tudor, there were several children. Henry VII was her/his grandson, though his claim to the throne was as a great-great-grandson of John of Gaunt of course; via his mother Margaret of Beaufort who married Edmund Tudor (Catherine and Owen's eldest son).
I know that. That does not make the Reformation-era Tudors culturally Welsh (Henry VIII was born near London etc.) and even if they were Welsh, the alleged influence of their Welshness on their treatment of Irish catholicism went completely over my head.
Let me walk you through what happened.
1. Sheilbh says
QuoteDiarmuid MacCulloch, who I've stolen lots of this from, makes an interesting comparison between Ireland and Wales. Both were historically religiously very conservative. But there's a Welsh Bible, Book of Common Prayer and Welsh Protestant literature by the 1570s. There's a Welsh college established in Oxford. Interestingly the new Protestant class in Wales makes a link between Celtic Christianity and Protestantism, against corrupt Romanism - like continental Protestants see themselves as succeeding the Church Fathers. Above all, however, Wales remains a province the Tudors are sensitive to and a nation rather than a colony to be exploited. The consequence is that Wales has one of the most thorough-going Reformations in the British Isles and is probably as devoutly, Low Church Protestant as, say, East Anglia.
2. Yi says
QuoteWeren't the Tudors themselves Welsh? Surely that must have played a part.
The Tudors certainly weren't culturally Welsh but definitely had pride in their Welsh routes and were rather big on the whole original Britons thing.
This was more the early tudors and as said became irrelevant later on.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 03, 2012, 08:05:00 PM
Weren't the Tudors themselves Welsh? Surely that must have played a part.
Well William Wallace and Robert the Bruce were Normans but that didn't seem to matter much. I think Nobles do not really worry about things like their nationality.
It may have more in the Tudor times (when Nationalism was starting to get going) then it did in the Norman times. I'm not sure that having a ancestor who was Welsh really mattered that much though.
Quote from: Valmy on July 04, 2012, 02:41:57 PM
Well William Wallace and Robert the Bruce were Normans but that didn't seem to matter much. I think Nobles do not really worry about things like their nationality.
William Wallace was Norman? :huh:
Just thought of a more recent example of intra-Christian proselytizing: Latin American evangelicals.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2012, 06:01:32 PM
William Wallace was Norman? :huh:
Just thought of a more recent example of intra-Christian proselytizing: Latin American evangelicals.
What do you mean :huh:?
Both William and Wallace are Norman names.
Quote from: Valmy on July 04, 2012, 07:53:36 PM
What do you mean :huh:?
Both William and Wallace are Norman names.
I mean "golly, whoduthunkit?" I mean "gee, I'm surprised."
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2012, 08:01:16 PM
I mean "golly, whoduthunkit?" I mean "gee, I'm surprised."
Ah. Got it :blush:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2012, 06:01:32 PM
Just thought of a more recent example of intra-Christian proselytizing: Latin American evangelicals.
Also Tim Tebow's family...when you're doing missionary work in the Philippines, you're not exactly targeting pagans.
Quote from: ulmont on July 04, 2012, 08:52:18 PM
Also Tim Tebow's family...when you're doing missionary work in the Philippines, you're not exactly targeting pagans.
Unless they were down on the island with the Muslims.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2012, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: ulmont on July 04, 2012, 08:52:18 PM
Also Tim Tebow's family...when you're doing missionary work in the Philippines, you're not exactly targeting pagans.
Unless they were down on the island with the Muslims.
Wouldn't they be heathens, not pagans?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2012, 09:04:37 PM
Quote from: ulmont on July 04, 2012, 08:52:18 PM
Also Tim Tebow's family...when you're doing missionary work in the Philippines, you're not exactly targeting pagans.
Unless they were down on the island with the Muslims.
At a quick search, at least some of the Baptist missionaries appear to be working in Cebu City, which doesn't seem to be down in the Muslim area.
The church I grew up in has missions all over the world, including many christian and post-christian countries.
Quote from: Valmy on July 04, 2012, 08:03:28 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 04, 2012, 08:01:16 PM
I mean "golly, whoduthunkit?" I mean "gee, I'm surprised."
Ah. Got it :blush:
Don't worry. I find Yi perplexing as well.
I saw some missionaries today. They were Mormons. Silly.
Quote from: Faeelin on July 03, 2012, 10:48:28 PM
Sheilbh, that is interesting. What book was it you got this from?
Bits are from Austin Woolrych's Britain in Revolution, but mostly from Diarmaid MacCulloch's Reformation. His select bibliography on the Reformation in Ireland recommends the Protestant Reformation in Ireland by Alan Ford which focuses on the early Stuart Church of Ireland.
One other interesting titbit is that because of the ties with Spain Ireland's one of the only bits of North-Western Europe to avoid witch trials totally. The Spanish Inquisition tended to downplay the existence of witches, though they thought they were real. It was probably because they actually had conversos and the like to hunt down. But because Ireland was officially Protestant she missed both the Inquisition and the witch frenzy that hit England, Scotland, Wales and big chunks of Germany.
Quote from: Neil on July 05, 2012, 12:03:01 AM
I saw some missionaries today. They were Mormons. Silly.
Speaking of which, has anyone ever succeeded or knows anyone who succeeded in seducing them? I sometimes think about it when I see them, as they are young and often quite good looking (in the Mormon, sanitized, dorky way) but then I wonder if it's worth the bother - probably would be a novelty thing though.
Why would you want to do that? You'd probably leave them with serious mental issues, depression, etc. :hmm:
Quote from: Caliga on July 05, 2012, 05:43:32 AM
Why would you want to do that? You'd probably leave them with serious mental issues, depression, etc. :hmm:
Ask Berkut. It doesn't matter. It's all biology and instinct.
Quote from: Martinus on July 05, 2012, 05:49:03 AM
Quote from: Caliga on July 05, 2012, 05:43:32 AM
Why would you want to do that? You'd probably leave them with serious mental issues, depression, etc. :hmm:
Ask Berkut. It doesn't matter. It's all biology and instinct.
If that was true, we could cure you.