There is something wrong with my back. I can barely move. Some of you may have noticed this from other threads. I decided that instead of polluting other threads with my bitching I would put it all in one thread. That way, the more heartless amongst you can safely ignore it, and I still can pain-post till I recover or die. Currently taking 750 mg of Robaxin twice ever six hours and 350 mg of Oxycontin twice every four hours. It has little effect. I can somewhat hobble around my house with a cane, but it's slow and I fall down a lot. I do get a little dizzy though and sometimes sleepy, though getting up after having slept for a some time is extremely hard. All my muscles contract and it's very difficult to move like that. The doc thinks it's just a strained or torn muscle and will heal itself (which is much better news then a damaged spine). I will keep Languish posted.
I think that's a pretty hefty dose of oxy.
I'd try and get off that shit as soon as possible if you can. Stick with the robax of course.
Get better, dude.
Yeah, I don't even always take the Oxy. It doesn't do much. At least not for the pain. I have a very high tolerance for the medications. Don't feel them, don't become addicted, don't even become stoned. I really surprised the docs in the hospital with the drugs they pumped into me on the IV. They put three times the normal dose before I could walk ( or stumble around at least). The nurse looked at me a bit shocked and said that dosage normally floors people. 10 years in and out of mental hospitals gives me an impressive resistance to drugs.
Still - 350 x 6 = 2 grammes of oxycontin. Very few docs over here would prescribe even a tenth of that dose to someone your age.
Quote from: Lucidor on May 18, 2012, 04:29:03 PM
Still - 350 x 6 = 2 grammes of oxycontin. Very few docs over here would prescribe even a tenth of that dose to someone your age.
Looking at the bottle, I think it's mixed with something else. Looks like Tylenol. My age? I'm 30.
Is Raz: Newt Gringrich's not-quite-so-evil twin?
Evidence:
1. Girth
2. Heavy Oxycontin usage
3. Difficulty relating to human beings
4. Strong views on political matters expressed in logically confused fashion.
5. Makes people put them on ignore.
6. Newt is severely narcissistic; Raz swings the other way towards self-loathing
Hmm . . .
Serious, Raz, I hope you feel better soon.
I'm not a doctor, but isn't Oxycontin typically undiluted? I know Vicodin has Tylenol mixed in to prevent abusers from remaining alive, but I thought that Oxy was always pure.
Raz, I hope you get better soon. :hug:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2012, 05:02:00 PM
Is Raz: Newt Gringrich's not-quite-so-evil twin?
Evidence:
1. Girth
2. Heavy Oxycontin usage
3. Difficulty relating to human beings
4. Strong views on political matters expressed in logically confused fashion.
5. Makes people put them on ignore.
6. Newt is severely narcissistic; Raz swings the other way towards self-loathing
Hmm . . .
Serious, Raz, I hope you feel better soon.
I actually respect Gingrich. He's really quite clever. He's insane and unpleasant, but he's clever. He should stick to teaching. Also he has a better luck with the ladies.
Quote from: DGuller on May 18, 2012, 05:12:31 PM
I'm not a doctor, but isn't Oxycontin typically undiluted? I know Vicodin has Tylenol mixed in to prevent abusers from remaining alive, but I thought that Oxy was always pure.
I don't really know. Drugs aren't my bag. Just the stuff doctors give me. Beyond that, I'm clean. Avoid the stuff like the plague.
Oh and I had some really tasty blueberries on Thursday. They cam with some pancakes. Madison Wisconsin is a really nice town, I wish either I lived there or my sister and her daughter lived closer to Jefferson City. My niece is pure wonderful.
Good luck man. That's the worst.
Go to the witch doctor, and hear what he said.
I highly recommend a heating pad. Helps when my back goes out, anyway.
Take care, Raz. Hope it gets better soon. :hug:
Go to a masseuse. A real one. They know what they're doing, what they're looking at. And they know damned good chiropractors.
I can't tell you how my world turned after meeting mine. Constant neck twinges, pinched nerves down my back, my IT band acting up. It is more PT than it is massage.
It took months, but she finally straightened me out to the point that I'm 100% better off than I was before. I had been in discomfort for so many years, I didn't even realize it until she loosened me up.
Quote from: Scipio on May 18, 2012, 07:35:52 PM
Go to the witch doctor, and hear what he said.
I tried but all he said was, "Oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang"
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on May 18, 2012, 05:02:00 PM
Is Raz: Newt Gringrich's not-quite-so-evil twin?
Evidence:
1. Girth
2. Heavy Oxycontin usage
3. Difficulty relating to human beings
4. Strong views on political matters expressed in logically confused fashion.
5. Makes people put them on ignore.
6. Newt is severely narcissistic; Raz swings the other way towards self-loathing
Hmm . . .
:lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 18, 2012, 08:37:26 PM
Go to a masseuse. A real one. They know what they're doing, what they're looking at. And they know damned good chiropractors.
I can't tell you how my world turned after meeting mine. Constant neck twinges, pinched nerves down my back, my IT band acting up. It is more PT than it is massage.
It took months, but she finally straightened me out to the point that I'm 100% better off than I was before. I had been in discomfort for so many years, I didn't even realize it until she loosened me up.
I wary of chiropractors and masseuses. Waking up and having to go up several flights of stairs before I get to the bathroom is not good. I tried to go without the oxy for a while. I ended up screaming a lot. Just standing is torture. It's like standing on a broken bone. I'm going to try to get some sleep again.
Damn, dude, that's all fucked up. :(
Doesn't sound like you can be wary of any potential solutions at this point. Is the chiropractor gonna make anything worse?
Quote from: sbr on May 19, 2012, 08:13:32 AM
Doesn't sound like you can be wary of any potential solutions at this point. Is the chiropractor gonna make anything worse?
It definitely can.
Quote from: sbr on May 19, 2012, 08:13:32 AM
Doesn't sound like you can be wary of any potential solutions at this point. Is the chiropractor gonna make anything worse?
I could have less money and still be injured.
You're taking Oxycocet, not Oxycontin. Oxycocet is usally 325mg of tylenol with 5mg of oxycodone.
Oxycotin is oxycodone unmixed, and it doesn't come in 350mg form.
I meant the highest does of oxycontin in pill form is 80mg anyways.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 19, 2012, 11:54:45 AM
Quote from: sbr on May 19, 2012, 08:13:32 AM
Doesn't sound like you can be wary of any potential solutions at this point. Is the chiropractor gonna make anything worse?
I could have less money and still be injured.
What do those people who live in the house above you say? Do you think those people could help you somehow?
Quote from: Zoupa on May 19, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
You're taking Oxycocet, not Oxycontin. Oxycocet is usally 325mg of tylenol with 5mg of oxycodone.
Oxycotin is oxycodone unmixed, and it doesn't come in 350mg form.
Okay, if you say so.
I was just reading the what the bottle said. "Oxycodone/acetaminophen 325 mg"
Raz.. :(
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 19, 2012, 03:20:44 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 19, 2012, 11:54:45 AM
Quote from: sbr on May 19, 2012, 08:13:32 AM
Doesn't sound like you can be wary of any potential solutions at this point. Is the chiropractor gonna make anything worse?
I could have less money and still be injured.
What do those people who live in the house above you say? Do you think those people could help you somehow?
Only my dad lives above me. I haven't asked him his opinion on "vital energy" and "innate intelligence". I'll bring it up in the near future.
Hope you feel better soon Raz. My back acted up recently, so I have some idea of how limiting it can be. I had a hard time getting dressed for a day or two, and doing other simple things. Much better now though; just sore sometimes. Chiropractor usually helps me out pretty well with a sore back.
Gunna see a doc today. I have a feeling I'll be disappointed. Hopefully he'll refill my prescriptions and maybe find a PT program at the hospital. I'd bet good money he'll tell me I need to lose weight or something else that is obvious. If he tells me I need to start jogging I'm going to beat him with my cane.
You can get a steroidal injection into your spine. That will usually work for me.
Stupid Raz and his contagion. Had to break out the heating pad and Motrin myself yesterday. :mad:
WTF all you people are falling apart.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on May 21, 2012, 07:17:20 AM
You can get a steroidal injection into your spine. That will usually work for me.
I was wondering about that one. That might stop the inflammation.
Quote from: katmai on May 21, 2012, 07:25:18 AM
WTF all you people are falling apart.
Hehe. I've had back problems since I was in my twenties, having hurt it on a construction job. But even with that, I kept very active, as I was heavily into exercise of all kinds, and loved being in shape. Health clubs, sports, martial arts stuff (karate, kick boxing, boxing). I wasn't a really good athlete, just loved keeping in decent shape. I don't do much of that stuff now though.
Well, I don't know if it's because I slept wrong, or because I threw it out maneuvering my penis into Chubbie Subbie's face Saturday.
Think I slept on it wrong.
Sciatica stalks me every moment of the day.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 21, 2012, 07:35:17 AM
Well, I don't know if it's because I slept wrong, or because I threw it out maneuvering my penis into Chubbie Subbie's face Saturday.
Think I slept on it wrong.
You gotta stretch beforehand.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 21, 2012, 08:25:36 AM
You gotta stretch beforehand.
I stretched, when I reached over to pull her hair and drag her to my cock.
My avatar is pleased.
:nelson:
That's not very nice.
He was the best Zeus. Those terrible re-makes piss on the proud name of Wrath of the Titans.
Christ that was painful. I went to the doc and he sent me to the hospital to get X-rays. Walking isn't easy with a cane and there was a lot of it in the hospital. Laying on the table in funny positions was not easy either. I'm exhausted and in lots of pain. At least I get a week more of meds.
Raz, you could have requested a wheelchair, and someone to help push it. Next time do that instead of walking. Hope you're feeling better soon!
Yeah, half way though I realized I should have opted for the wheel chair.
I need to start getting better soon. I think the pain is getting worse. I'm in real agony here.
You could play Katawa Shoujo. A game about the disabled might be more relatable to you right now.
I was already disabled. I also can't read Japanese.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2012, 01:25:23 AM
I need to start getting better soon. I think the pain is getting worse. I'm in real agony here.
Hey! You posted that on FB. No double posting! :homestar:
It was slightly different.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2012, 01:52:39 AM
I was already disabled. I also can't read Japanese.
It's a game made by non-japanese, for non-japanese. It's the nips who are squealing in their effete voices for a translation, which is still in progress.
It was released to the public free, and received considerable acclaim among visual novel enthusiasts. I think you'd really like Rin.
Edit: a link for lazy razgovories
http://katawa-shoujo.com/
My balls hurt. :(
The nut nerves come out of the sacroilliac. I've been hobbled by a bad back and my huevos have been hurting too.
Assuming its muscular you'll have to move around. Short walks at least or your back and leg muscles will just continue to stay all locked up. But listen to your doctor and all. But if they do say to move, you really should do so, else improvement will be slow and painful rather than slightly less slow and painful.
Are you icing?
I'm beginning to suspect the first doc was wrong and it's some kind of spinal nerve damage. My testicles don't hurt anymore (I took three pills before that stopped hurting). I was expecting a call from the doc today, but didn't get it. I was hoping for more information. Today we are back to leg and back pain. The pain is getting close to intolerable. I'm tempted to just check myself into the hospital for the IV drip alone.
I'm just a simple country doctor, but that sounds like sciatica.
Back pain. check
Shoots down leg? check
Nut pain? check.
Have you considered offering a burnt sacrifice to your local dealer?
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 22, 2012, 07:26:15 PM
I'm just a simple country doctor, but that sounds like sciatica.
Back pain. check
Shoots down leg? check
Nut pain? check.
I think you may be right.
I feel a bit better today. Today is the day my social worker comes, but I don't think I'll be going out. On the plus side I've lost like 10 pounds.
Well, hurt like a bitch today. I'm so tired of this. :(
Not to be all doctory but I'm assuming you're maxing the NSAIDs, like Diclofenac 150-200 mg a day, Naproxen 1000 mg or Ibuprofen 2400 mg a day?
Quote from: Lucidor on May 24, 2012, 04:08:44 PM
Ibuprofen 2400 mg a day?
Soooooooooooooooooooo not good for you, even though they recommend 800mg x 3, you really don't want to do that very long.
Just take lot's of antacids to compensate.
MRI request denied by insurance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PepQF7G-It0 Thanks guys.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 25, 2012, 09:19:35 AM
MRI request denied by insurance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PepQF7G-It0 Thanks guys.
Your doctor can override that with a medical necessity request. They do it all the time.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 25, 2012, 09:20:29 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 25, 2012, 09:19:35 AM
MRI request denied by insurance. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PepQF7G-It0 Thanks guys.
Your doctor can override that with a medical necessity request. They do it all the time.
He not a my family physician (I don't actually have one of those). He's the guy the hospital sent me to. He said he would only see me once. On account of insurance. They said they've done all they can. At least they let me listen to Conservative talk radio when they put me on hold. Did you know that the National Debt was only 6 trillion when Obama took office? Neither did I!
Here, have some free NHS advice:
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Sciatica/Pages/Treatment.aspx (http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Sciatica/Pages/Treatment.aspx)
Until you can get a scan, stay active (lying down makes back pain worse), apply hot or cold, whichever feels more comfortable, alternate ibuprofen with paracetamol to avoid killing your liver.
Quote from: Brazen on May 25, 2012, 09:35:20 AM
Here, have some free NHS advice:
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Sciatica/Pages/Treatment.aspx (http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Sciatica/Pages/Treatment.aspx)
Until you can get a scan, stay active (lying down makes back pain worse), apply hot or cold, whichever feels more comfortable, alternate ibuprofen with paracetamol to avoid killing your liver.
I can't actually walk with out a cane and heavy medication. And even then I can't walk very far. I wouldn't be able to get the the test for at least four more weeks. My meds run out Monday.
Only option left is to go back to the hospital (since they can't refuse me, and see if I can get a referral to a pain management place (they won't take me without a referal). The pain joint will only see me in June, but it's the only shot I have. Perhaps at least the hospital will refill my meds if I show up.
Heating Pad, $24.99, Rite Aid.
Quote from: Lettow77 on May 22, 2012, 02:36:53 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 22, 2012, 01:52:39 AM
I was already disabled. I also can't read Japanese.
It's a game made by non-japanese, for non-japanese. It's the nips who are squealing in their effete voices for a translation, which is still in progress.
It was released to the public free, and received considerable acclaim among visual novel enthusiasts. I think you'd really like Rin.
Edit: a link for lazy razgovories
http://katawa-shoujo.com/
Raz's next post.
QuoteMy balls hurt. :(
Sorry buddy, just thought that was funny right after crackhead's post.
Get better.
I saw another doctor today! A better doctor. Or at least a better looking one. New meds! Naproxen Sodium (I can buy that over the counter), and Cyclobnzaprine.
QuoteCyclobnzaprine
Ahhhh, Flexeril. How do I love thee.
I could go with some Flexeril. Friday is 90 minute Power Yoger night. It is my drug of choice when I have no percoset.
The new meds really don't cut it. I woke up and couldn't walk. I stretched a bit and took my meds and finally hobbled my way to the bathroom. Sat down on the crapper and oh boy. My back and legs really, really hurt. Took about 10 minutes before it stopped. Like screaming hurting. I don't know what to do. The last doctor I saw still thinks it's a muscle problem. After memorial day I may go back to hospital. I'd rather be there then with an IV and some meds then here in agony.
It is a muscle issue. Go see a fucking masseuse already and deal with it already, goddammit. Fuck.
I wonder what they'll do when I ask them massage my balls.
OK, fuckwit, you don't want to do anything about it, stop bitching about it. Meds and bitching doesn't solve a musculature problem. So STFU already.
I thought there was a study that said bitching actually did help people deal with pain. Or maybe it was just cursing.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 27, 2012, 08:10:52 AM
I thought there was a study that said bitching actually did help people deal with pain. Or maybe it was just cursing.
Old Jewish maid's tale.
Mythbusters proved cursing helps with pain.
Mythbusters sucks.
Quote from: sbr on May 27, 2012, 12:48:53 PM
Mythbusters proved cursing helps with pain.
Tell that to Human Resources.
My HR director said he needed to talk to me for a moment, and then asked me to haul up sandwiches from his car for company lunch. <_<
I only did it because he said if I did I'd get first dibs. :P
You people sure like your dibs.
Quote from: Jaron on May 27, 2012, 02:14:29 PM
My HR director said he needed to talk to me for a moment, and then asked me to haul up sandwiches from his car for company lunch. <_<
I only did it because he said if I did I'd get first dibs. :P
A male HR director? A RARE DUCK INDEED.
Quote from: Jaron on May 27, 2012, 02:14:29 PM
My HR director said he needed to talk to me for a moment, and then asked me to haul up sandwiches from his car for company lunch. <_<
I only did it because he said if I did I'd get first dibs. :P
company man.
House Mexican.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 27, 2012, 02:29:31 PM
A male HR director? A RARE DUCK INDEED.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohiohistorycentral.org%2Fimages%2Fdrew_carey.jpg&hash=e215b3d27e24117ad2195e0532d892bb50125b4f)
Quote from: 11B4V on May 27, 2012, 07:40:40 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 27, 2012, 02:14:29 PM
My HR director said he needed to talk to me for a moment, and then asked me to haul up sandwiches from his car for company lunch. <_<
I only did it because he said if I did I'd get first dibs. :P
company man.
Sure, it starts with delivering sandwiches to company functions.
But it ends with serving them out of an oversize novelty sombrero. ;)
Our HR also has an male director.
Dude's only goal is to keep HR alive. Pretty good at it too.
I hate him.
I looked around for a spine wizard, but I can't afford one an my insurance doesn't cover it. Recently the testicles have been hurting more and more. I just took two of the oxys with only a hour between each dose. I get dizzy and have a hard time concentrating. I was out at a restaurant last night and I have a lot of difficulty concentrating on what my dad was saying (it doesn't help that he's boring sometimes). I have a hard time understanding why people would be interested in take these meds. Not being able to concentrate is not a pleasant experience.
Quote from: Caliga on May 27, 2012, 10:16:56 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 27, 2012, 02:29:31 PM
A male HR director? A RARE DUCK INDEED.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ohiohistorycentral.org%2Fimages%2Fdrew_carey.jpg&hash=e215b3d27e24117ad2195e0532d892bb50125b4f)
Aw fuck. I'm wearing the same glasses.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 01, 2012, 04:04:32 PM
I looked around for a spine wizard, but I can't afford one an my insurance doesn't cover it. Recently the testicles have been hurting more and more.
Jesus H Christ, man.
At least you didn't fold to the chiropractic scam. :yes:
Quote from: sbr on June 02, 2012, 01:48:06 AM
At least you didn't fold to the chiropractic scam. :yes:
I did that when I had severe back pain about ten years ago.
Thank god I did. Ten treatments later, I was done and never had the problem recur. It's not as dramatic as the kidney transplant scam, or the LASIC scam, but it is as good, if you have the right chiropractor and the right problem.
For lower back muscle problems, something like http://www.amazon.com/Zewa-Body-Relax-Relief-System/dp/B002L6LXQG/ref=pd_bxgy_hpc_text_b works pretty well.
How would the testicles be effected by back pain? :hmm:
Perhaps Raz has such large testicles that his back is straining to support their weight?
Blue balls is true! :o
Quote from: Queequeg on June 03, 2012, 06:30:33 PM
How would the testicles be effected by back pain? :hmm:
His rage permeates his entire being, causing sympathetic vibrations in his major humours.
Quote from: Queequeg on June 03, 2012, 06:30:33 PM
How would the testicles be effected by back pain? :hmm:
Same reason back problems can cause pain in the legs. The nerves that terminate in the nuts get pinched.
The question is then: Who pinches Raz's nuts?
Quote from: Jaron on June 03, 2012, 08:38:06 PM
The question is then: Who pinches Raz's nuts?
Dobermans.
Keith Dobermans?
:bleeding:
<sigh>
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2012, 04:57:59 PM
I did that when I had severe back pain about ten years ago.
Thank god I did. Ten treatments later, I was done and never had the problem recur. It's not as dramatic as the kidney transplant scam, or the LASIC scam, but it is as good, if you have the right chiropractor and the right problem.
For lower back muscle problems, something like http://www.amazon.com/Zewa-Body-Relax-Relief-System/dp/B002L6LXQG/ref=pd_bxgy_hpc_text_b works pretty well.
I have really mixed feelings on chiropractors. I mean on one hand if you actually read about them, there are some serious scam warning bells and some really dicey stuff that goes on. For example when my wife was in medical school two guys were forced out due to failing too many courses, both became chiropractors. That's apparently a somewhat common source of practitioners of chiropractic. (Now, FWIW, because medical school is so difficult to get into even the rare guys who flunk out aren't idiots, they probably had 3.5-4.0 GPAs and strong general academic performance to get in, and would have had to pass fairly difficult biology and chemistry courses as an undergrad.)
The problem I think a lot of people have with chiropractors is historically they were strong advocates of "manual manipulation" as a "holistic health treatment." Basically they believed that by subjecting a patient to manual manipulation it could fix a
wide variety of ills, not just stuff relating to the musculoskeletal system. That aspect of it is pretty much baseless woo, and unfortunately some chiropractors still practice in this trade. Even worse, some of the ones who do this stuff do really risky "manipulations" to the neck and other areas and have actually inadvertently fractured people's necks and etc.
On the other hand, over the past 30 years chiropractors as a field have moved away from that by and large. Many of them are more about specifically treating musculoskeletal problems and some specializing in sort of helping coordinate general physical therapy and etc in conjunction with what they do themselves to get you back in shape. Apparently that part of it is genuinely respected and accepted as legitimate by "real" doctors.
Just as a side point, while my wife is an MD, a lot of people she works with (including several surgeons) are DOs. The only real difference between the two medical schools (DOs for anyone who doesn't know are fully licensed physicians who can become surgeons or any other type of specialist physician you can imagine, with all the same authority and licensure) is DO schools still teach manual manipulation--because they got their start at the end of the 19th century by a guy who practice manual manipulation as a "holistic healthcare" system. DOs have long gotten rid of that woo part of it, but they still learn a lot of chiropractic techniques and generally stand by their effectiveness.
Quote from: Jaron on May 27, 2012, 11:12:12 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on May 27, 2012, 11:03:02 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on May 27, 2012, 10:54:25 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 27, 2012, 10:39:16 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 27, 2012, 08:10:21 PM
House Mexican.
What the fuck?
I guess term "cabana boy" has gone out of vogue.
Isnt that Teh Gay version of mexican house boy? :hmm:
Gay? I'll show you gay.
I'll cut your face!
Stealing my re-told anecdotes?
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 04, 2012, 09:44:58 AMJust as a side point, while my wife is an MD, a lot of people she works with (including several surgeons) are DOs. The only real difference between the two medical schools (DOs for anyone who doesn't know are fully licensed physicians who can become surgeons or any other type of specialist physician you can imagine, with all the same authority and licensure) is DO schools still teach manual manipulation--because they got their start at the end of the 19th century by a guy who practice manual manipulation as a "holistic healthcare" system. DOs have long gotten rid of that woo part of it, but they still learn a lot of chiropractic techniques and generally stand by their effectiveness.
DO's do offer a refreshing alternative to the current "script first, ask questions later" methodology of a lot of today's medical schools. The DOs I've met have been pretty down to earth, too.
In Raz's case, he really needs to find somebody that can identify and adjust his soft tissue issues, whether it's a chiro or a frigging good masseuse, because pain killers aren't going to be solving anything.
Building better lives through pharmaceutical products. :)
Quote from: Queequeg on June 03, 2012, 06:30:33 PM
How would the testicles be effected by back pain? :hmm:
Metastatic cancer to the spine...
Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on June 04, 2012, 09:44:58 AM
Quote from: grumbler on June 03, 2012, 04:57:59 PM
I did that when I had severe back pain about ten years ago.
Thank god I did. Ten treatments later, I was done and never had the problem recur. It's not as dramatic as the kidney transplant scam, or the LASIC scam, but it is as good, if you have the right chiropractor and the right problem.
For lower back muscle problems, something like http://www.amazon.com/Zewa-Body-Relax-Relief-System/dp/B002L6LXQG/ref=pd_bxgy_hpc_text_b works pretty well.
I have really mixed feelings on chiropractors. I mean on one hand if you actually read about them, there are some serious scam warning bells and some really dicey stuff that goes on. For example when my wife was in medical school two guys were forced out due to failing too many courses, both became chiropractors. That's apparently a somewhat common source of practitioners of chiropractic. (Now, FWIW, because medical school is so difficult to get into even the rare guys who flunk out aren't idiots, they probably had 3.5-4.0 GPAs and strong general academic performance to get in, and would have had to pass fairly difficult biology and chemistry courses as an undergrad.)
The problem I think a lot of people have with chiropractors is historically they were strong advocates of "manual manipulation" as a "holistic health treatment." Basically they believed that by subjecting a patient to manual manipulation it could fix a wide variety of ills, not just stuff relating to the musculoskeletal system. That aspect of it is pretty much baseless woo, and unfortunately some chiropractors still practice in this trade. Even worse, some of the ones who do this stuff do really risky "manipulations" to the neck and other areas and have actually inadvertently fractured people's necks and etc.
On the other hand, over the past 30 years chiropractors as a field have moved away from that by and large. Many of them are more about specifically treating musculoskeletal problems and some specializing in sort of helping coordinate general physical therapy and etc in conjunction with what they do themselves to get you back in shape. Apparently that part of it is genuinely respected and accepted as legitimate by "real" doctors.
Just as a side point, while my wife is an MD, a lot of people she works with (including several surgeons) are DOs. The only real difference between the two medical schools (DOs for anyone who doesn't know are fully licensed physicians who can become surgeons or any other type of specialist physician you can imagine, with all the same authority and licensure) is DO schools still teach manual manipulation--because they got their start at the end of the 19th century by a guy who practice manual manipulation as a "holistic healthcare" system. DOs have long gotten rid of that woo part of it, but they still learn a lot of chiropractic techniques and generally stand by their effectiveness.
Grumbler's pain most likely would have disappeared in the absence of any treatment. What he went through is the placebo effect. He'll never admit to it and that's quite fine, but that's what the science shows.
Most of them shouldn't be near patients. Their profession is a hot bed of anti-vaccination fanatics that poison the well and actively hurt public health in the United States. Fine, practice your voodoo all you want but don't fucking try to convince parents that their kids should get spinal manipulation to cure Johnny's asthma and that vaccines cause autism or cancer.
Try to get a double blind randomized control study for effectiveness on most of their "procedures". It never happens because they don't want their practices put under the same microscope of scrutiny that aspirin or any other medical intervention is put under. They do not believe in the scientific method.
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
Most of it is placebo. Grumbler's pain most likely would have disappeared in the absence of any treatment. He'll never admit to it and that's quite fine, but that's what the science shows.
Why would he admit that it didn't help him if no one can speak definitively on his case in either direction? :huh:
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2012, 10:49:07 AM
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
Most of it is placebo. Grumbler's pain most likely would have disappeared in the absence of any treatment. He'll never admit to it and that's quite fine, but that's what the science shows.
Why would he admit that it didn't help him if no one can speak definitively on his case in either direction? :huh:
He's bought into the religion. Correlation does not equal causation. The natural history of his disease resolved around the time he started getting spinal manipulations. The lack of double blinded RCTs to support most chiropractic interventions speaks in my direction.
This is similar to how parents swear vaccines cause autism. The time when you start to notice developmental delays occurs roughly around the same time babies are at the pediatrician getting their vaccines. Yet studies show no difference in autism rates in the presence or absence of the MMR vaccine. These parents, like grumbler with his pain, will believe the lie until their death beds.
Fate's embrace of chiro-hate has caused me to question my own chiro-hate. :mellow:
Quote from: Barrister on June 04, 2012, 11:10:47 AM
Fate's embrace of chiro-hate has caused me to question my own chiro-hate. :mellow:
I also believe that vaccines are the greatest medical development in the history of man kind and that physicians should practice evidence based medicine. I hope you don't start questioning those things as well. :lmfao:
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
Try to get a double blind randomized control study for effectiveness on most of their "procedures". It never happens because they don't want their practices put under the same microscope of scrutiny that aspirin or any other medical intervention is put under. They do not believe in the scientific method.
How would you do a double-blind study of chiropractic procedures? What would you do to the control group, crack their knuckles?
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 10:56:06 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2012, 10:49:07 AM
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
Most of it is placebo. Grumbler's pain most likely would have disappeared in the absence of any treatment. He'll never admit to it and that's quite fine, but that's what the science shows.
Why would he admit that it didn't help him if no one can speak definitively on his case in either direction? :huh:
He's bought into the religion. Correlation does not equal causation. The natural history of his disease resolved around the time he started getting spinal manipulations. The lack of double blinded RCTs to support most chiropractic interventions speaks in my direction.
This is similar to how parents swear vaccines cause autism. The time when you start to notice developmental delays occurs roughly around the same time babies are at the pediatrician getting their vaccines. Yet studies show no difference in autism rates in the presence or absence of the MMR vaccine. These parents, like grumbler with his pain, will believe the lie until their death beds.
I think you are over analyzing what he posted.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2012, 10:23:25 AM
DO's do offer a refreshing alternative to the current "script first, ask questions later" methodology of a lot of today's medical schools. The DOs I've met have been pretty down to earth, too.
Because I grew up in Des Moines - home of one of the better DO medical schools in the country - and the hospital my mom worked at was a DO hosptital, all of my doctors were DOs. It was quite a culture shock to move to Chicago where they're all MDs. The only MDs that I've found that follow the DO methodology are those from India or Africa. They look at medication as a last resort, not the first, and they often try to find the root of the problem instead of just treating the symptoms.
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2012, 11:49:45 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 04, 2012, 10:23:25 AM
DO's do offer a refreshing alternative to the current "script first, ask questions later" methodology of a lot of today's medical schools. The DOs I've met have been pretty down to earth, too.
Because I grew up in Des Moines - home of one of the better DO medical schools in the country - and the hospital my mom worked at was a DO hosptital, all of my doctors were DOs. It was quite a culture shock to move to Chicago where they're all MDs. The only MDs that I've found that follow the DO methodology are those from India or Africa. They look at medication as a last resort, not the first, and they often try to find the root of the problem instead of just treating the symptoms.
We already know about how your body talks to you.
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2012, 11:50:26 AM
We already know about how your body talks to you.
Paying attention to how my body works has saved my life at least twice. If you want me to apologize for that, you'll be waiting a long while.
Quote from: merithyn on June 04, 2012, 11:55:42 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2012, 11:50:26 AM
We already know about how your body talks to you.
Paying attention to how my body works has saved my life at least twice. If you want me to apologize for that, you'll be waiting a long while.
Not at all. Hearing your hippy thoughts on medicine: :x
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 11:21:01 AM
Quote from: Barrister on June 04, 2012, 11:10:47 AM
Fate's embrace of chiro-hate has caused me to question my own chiro-hate. :mellow:
I also believe that vaccines are the greatest medical development in the history of man kind and that physicians should practice evidence based medicine. I hope you don't start questioning those things as well. :lmfao:
I certainly do. The greatest medical development in the history of mankind is very clearly antibiotics, and to say otherwise is madness. :mad:
The idea that there is something to spinal manipulations being an effective treatment for lower back pain is intriguing. It's really because of chiro's ongoing connection to all that other mumbo-jumbo that gives me the biggest problem with chiropractic treatment for back injuries.
Quote from: DGuller on June 04, 2012, 11:40:50 AM
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
Try to get a double blind randomized control study for effectiveness on most of their "procedures". It never happens because they don't want their practices put under the same microscope of scrutiny that aspirin or any other medical intervention is put under. They do not believe in the scientific method.
How would you do a double-blind study of chiropractic procedures? What would you do to the control group, crack their knuckles?
Essentially, yeah. You'd use sham procedures.
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 12:14:20 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 04, 2012, 11:40:50 AM
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
Try to get a double blind randomized control study for effectiveness on most of their "procedures". It never happens because they don't want their practices put under the same microscope of scrutiny that aspirin or any other medical intervention is put under. They do not believe in the scientific method.
How would you do a double-blind study of chiropractic procedures? What would you do to the control group, crack their knuckles?
Essentially, yeah. You'd use sham procedures.
It's interesting. I thought to myself "surely someone must have done such a research study on the effects of chiro".
But a few minutes of web searching shows - nope. They haen't. There are studies that compare the effects of chiro manipulation to other therapies (with the result being that chiro manipulation is no more effective than anything else) but nothing that compares it to, well, doing nothing.
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2012, 11:41:08 AM
I think you are over analyzing what he posted.
I don't think he is analyzing what I wrote at all. He just saw that I had posted, and proceeded with a diatribe that had nothing to do with what I said, and everything to do with what he wanted to spew at the slightest provocation.
I used a chiropractor once, after my doctor's pharma-based approach did nothing over a long period of time. The c'practor described what he was going to do, and why, and how long it would take, and everything went exactly as described. Ten treatments later, I was done, and the problem hasn't recurred in the last 15 years. I can't ask for more than that. If that's a scam, then I am in favor of those kinds of scams. The MD-based pain-killers-and-muscle-relaxors scam wasn't so good a scam as the chiropractor one, other than being more expensive.
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 12:14:20 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 04, 2012, 11:40:50 AM
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
Try to get a double blind randomized control study for effectiveness on most of their "procedures". It never happens because they don't want their practices put under the same microscope of scrutiny that aspirin or any other medical intervention is put under. They do not believe in the scientific method.
How would you do a double-blind study of chiropractic procedures? What would you do to the control group, crack their knuckles?
Essentially, yeah. You'd use sham procedures.
I see at least two obvious problems. How would control group participants be fooled? It's hard to perceive a spine being cracked without having your spine cracked. Secondly, double-blind means that those administering treatment should be unaware as well. How can someone administering spinal adjustment ever be unaware of whether he's supposed to do the real thing, or crack just for show?
Quote from: grumbler on June 04, 2012, 12:22:43 PM
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2012, 11:41:08 AM
I think you are over analyzing what he posted.
I don't think he is analyzing what I wrote at all. He just saw that I had posted, and proceeded with a diatribe that had nothing to do with what I said, and everything to do with what he wanted to spew at the slightest provocation.
I used a chiropractor once, after my doctor's pharma-based approach did nothing over a long period of time. The c'practor described what he was going to do, and why, and how long it would take, and everything went exactly as described. Ten treatments later, I was done, and the problem hasn't recurred in the last 15 years. I can't ask for more than that. If that's a scam, then I am in favor of those kinds of scams. The MD-based pain-killers-and-muscle-relaxors scam wasn't so good a scam as the chiropractor one, other than being more expensive.
I'm very happy that this worked out well for you grumbler. :)
I know several people who have had very positive experiences in dealing with chiros as well.
The problem is that there are people who also swear by the healing power of prayer, or tiger penises, or whatnot. That's why we rely on Fate's new favourite phrase "evidence-based" treatments.
The studies done don't seem to support chiro manipulation as having any particular benefit.
Here's the best study I could find for free online.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447290/
What I've been told by some of the doctors is that this kind of thing tends to work itself out. Whether it be a muscular thing or a nerve thing. If Grumbler had the same thing as I did, then it's very likely his would have healed over time as well. If true, then he was scammed.
It's interesting that many people who scoff at religion (My sister, Grumbler), have no problem with unscientific treatments.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 04, 2012, 12:45:49 PM
What I've been told by some of the doctors is that this kind of thing tends to work itself out. Whether it be a muscular thing or a nerve thing. If Grumbler had the same thing as I did, then it's very likely his would have healed over time as well. If true, then he was scammed.
It's interesting that many people who scoff at religion (My sister, Grumbler), have no problem with unscientific treatments.
I don't think it's fair to say he was "scammed". His back hurt, he went to a chiro after the doctor wasn't able to treat his back, and after his treatments his back felt better. It's all very logical from grumbles point of view.
Lots of things are logical if you have a poor sense of cause and effect.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 04, 2012, 01:01:25 PM
Lots of things are logical if you have a poor sense of cause and effect.
The placebo effect is still an example of cause and effect. :contract:
Holy hell, my sciatica flared up today. Flexaril time.
And painkillers in reserve.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 04, 2012, 12:45:49 PM
What I've been told by some of the doctors is that this kind of thing tends to work itself out. Whether it be a muscular thing or a nerve thing.
Yeah, it'll work itself out...months from now. If it's simply not masked by something else, like your musculature overcompensating for it. You'll never even realize how much discomfort you're in.
QuoteIf Grumbler had the same thing as I did, then it's very likely his would have healed over time as well. If true, then he was scammed.
It's interesting that many people who scoff at religion (My sister, Grumbler), have no problem with unscientific treatments.
Soft tissue massage and manipulation works. But if you're not going to do anything about other than pop pills, the STFU and let this thread die. I'm tired of hearing fucking your whining.
You don't have to come here.
Quote from: garbon on June 04, 2012, 11:59:26 AM
Not at all. Hearing your hippy thoughts on medicine: :x
Hippy thoughts? :huh: Well, as I'm not a hippy, I find it hard to believe that I think like one, but if you say so. :)
A lippy hippie?
Quote from: Razgovory on June 04, 2012, 03:21:47 PM
You don't have to come here.
You're in my litter box, kitten. So stop kicking it out on the floor.
Quote from: DGuller on June 04, 2012, 12:24:33 PM
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 12:14:20 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 04, 2012, 11:40:50 AM
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 10:46:07 AM
Try to get a double blind randomized control study for effectiveness on most of their "procedures". It never happens because they don't want their practices put under the same microscope of scrutiny that aspirin or any other medical intervention is put under. They do not believe in the scientific method.
How would you do a double-blind study of chiropractic procedures? What would you do to the control group, crack their knuckles?
Essentially, yeah. You'd use sham procedures.
I see at least two obvious problems. How would control group participants be fooled? It's hard to perceive a spine being cracked without having your spine cracked. Secondly, double-blind means that those administering treatment should be unaware as well. How can someone administering spinal adjustment ever be unaware of whether he's supposed to do the real thing, or crack just for show?
I don't know enough about their pseudoscience to make a proper study. Presumably you can do chiropractic manipulation "wrong." Or maybe there's no wrong way, which honestly wouldn't surprise me given that it doesn't use peer reviewed science to support its practices.
You'd probably have to use first time patients who haven't been to a chiropractor before so they wouldn't know what they "should" be getting. Or you can just put them under during the procedure, but I'm sure that messes up the energy fields or chi lines. Although that removes the power of their bullshit because it's all about conscious manipulation.
The study could still be double blind - the patient doesn't know which treatment they're receiving and the researchers don't know which patients received which treatment. The person giving the treatment is kind of irrelevant in terms of blinding. We double blind so that we can minimize bias on the part of the researcher.
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 04:22:41 PM
I don't know enough about their pseudoscience to make a proper study. Presumably you can do chiropractic manipulation "wrong." Or maybe there's no wrong way, which honestly wouldn't surprise me given that it doesn't use peer reviewed science to support its practices.
You'd probably have to use first time patients who haven't been to a chiropractor before so they wouldn't know what they "should" be getting. Or you can just put them under during the procedure (which I'm sure messes up the energy fields or chi lines and renders a proper pseudoscience study invalid since there's no way to consciously manipulate them, which is what most scam artists do to achieve the placebo effect.) The study could still be double blind - the patient doesn't know which treatment they're receiving and the researchers don't know which patients received which treatment. The person giving the treatment is kind of irrelevant in terms of blinding. We double blind so that we can minimize bias on the part of the researcher.
I thought the point of double-blind studies was to also blind someone administering the treatment, to avoid him tipping off the patient, on purpose or inadvertently.
Quote from: DGuller on June 04, 2012, 04:28:25 PM
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 04:22:41 PM
I don't know enough about their pseudoscience to make a proper study. Presumably you can do chiropractic manipulation "wrong." Or maybe there's no wrong way, which honestly wouldn't surprise me given that it doesn't use peer reviewed science to support its practices.
You'd probably have to use first time patients who haven't been to a chiropractor before so they wouldn't know what they "should" be getting. Or you can just put them under during the procedure (which I'm sure messes up the energy fields or chi lines and renders a proper pseudoscience study invalid since there's no way to consciously manipulate them, which is what most scam artists do to achieve the placebo effect.) The study could still be double blind - the patient doesn't know which treatment they're receiving and the researchers don't know which patients received which treatment. The person giving the treatment is kind of irrelevant in terms of blinding. We double blind so that we can minimize bias on the part of the researcher.
I thought the point of double-blind studies was to also blind someone administering the treatment, to avoid him tipping off the patient, on purpose or inadvertently.
I mean your nurse knowing she's injecting experimental chemo vs gold standard chemo doesn't change the study results. Of course she can't tell the patient what she's injecting, but that is still the patient side of the blinding. The double in double blind comes from the researcher. If the researcher knew who was getting what treatment as the study was going on they'd consciously or subconsciously bias the outcome. So we give a third party the "key" and only unmask who got what after the study has been completed.
The way it was explained to me in the high school statistics class, the nurse shouldn't be informed, because she can tip off the patient by her demeanor when administering treatment or placebo.
Quote from: DGuller on June 04, 2012, 04:43:03 PM
The way it was explained to me in the high school statistics class, the nurse shouldn't be informed, because she can tip off the patient by her demeanor when administering treatment or placebo.
It does impact outcome but that's the patient side of things. The patient knows what treatment they're getting so they behave differently. Single blinding is an effort to prevent the patient from knowing what treatment they received.
A double blinded study isn't one where the nurse is unaware of the treatment, the patient is unaware of the treatment, the researcher is aware of the treatment. That would be a single blinded study. I guess your class might have been conflating the researcher and the person administering the treatment, but they don't necessarily have to be the same person, and they usually aren't.
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 04:58:47 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 04, 2012, 04:43:03 PM
The way it was explained to me in the high school statistics class, the nurse shouldn't be informed, because she can tip off the patient by her demeanor when administering treatment or placebo.
It does impact outcome but that's the patient side of things. The patient knows what treatment they're getting so they behave differently. Single blinding is an effort to prevent the patient from knowing what treatment they received.
A double blinded study isn't one where the nurse is unaware of the treatment, the patient is unaware of the treatment, the researcher is aware of the treatment. That would be a single blinded study. I guess your class might have been conflating the researcher and the person administering the treatment, but they don't necessarily have to be the same person, and they usually aren't.
Ok, I'll take that. My objections still stand, they just apply to even single-blind studies. You still would prefer the guy doing the cracking to be in the dark as to whether he cracks for treatment, or cracks for placebo. That seems to be downright impossible, because snapping spines is not like giving pills.
Quote from: Barrister on June 04, 2012, 12:40:01 PM
I'm very happy that this worked out well for you grumbler. :)
I know several people who have had very positive experiences in dealing with chiros as well.
The problem is that there are people who also swear by the healing power of prayer, or tiger penises, or whatnot. That's why we rely on Fate's new favourite phrase "evidence-based" treatments.
The studies done don't seem to support chiro manipulation as having any particular benefit.
Here's the best study I could find for free online.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1447290/
I am perfectly willing to accept the idea that what I experienced isn't typical, which is why I couched my conclusion so carefully.
I have never recommended that anyone undergo chiropractic treatment. I simply noted my one experience with it. If that was a scam, then I am happy I was scammed. If it was just the placebo effect, then I am happy I experienced the placebo effect. All I know is that ten months of pain disappeared completely and permanently after something like ten days.
I think your study should be examined by anyone thinking about undergoing chiropractic treatment, and I am delighted that I never saw it before I did so myself! :lol:
How about acupuncture?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 04, 2012, 05:49:17 PM
How about acupuncture?
He thinks chiro is a shame; you think he's going to fall for Tiger Penis Soup?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 04, 2012, 05:49:17 PM
How about acupuncture?
Are there any randomized control trials supporting its efficacy? I mean it's not that medical doctors are intrinsically against traditional practices in all forms. But if we're going to use a medical intervention on a patient, there has to be a proven benefit. I tried doing a quick search and couldn't find any studies major US studies that show a statistically significant benefit of acupuncture versus sham acupuncture. At the very least we can say it's not harmful, so we won't tell a patient to avoid doing it if they believe it is helpful.
The placebo effect is quite powerful for subjective symptoms (which mean things like pain, malaise, feeling "bad", etc.) Up to 20-30% of people may observe a beneficial relief by sugar pill so as long as you tell them it will cure the subjective symptoms that they are describing. It's the same phenomenon with acupuncture and chiropractors.
Quote from: Fate on June 04, 2012, 08:26:08 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 04, 2012, 05:49:17 PM
How about acupuncture?
Are there any randomized control trials supporting its efficacy? I mean it's not that medical doctors are intrinsically against traditional practices in all forms. But if we're going to use a medical intervention on a patient, there has to be a proven benefit. I tried doing a quick search and couldn't find any studies major US studies that show a statistically significant benefit of acupuncture versus sham acupuncture. At the very least we can say it's not harmful, so we won't tell a patient to avoid something. The placebo effect is quite powerful. Up to 20-30% of people may observe a beneficial relief by sugar pill as long as you charge them a lot of money and tell them it will cure the subjective symptoms they are describing. It's the same with acupuncture and chiropractors.
Yes.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 04, 2012, 08:27:57 PM
Yes.
It's a randomized control trial. You don't pay to take the sugar pill. The researcher pays you, or at least provides treatment for free. :P
According to the first google hits I got for "randomized acupuncture control trial", it seems acupuncture rates as being somewhat effective (varied from "moderate" to "positive but not statistically significant in this study". I'm not sure how credible the studies are, but here they are:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18065731
QuoteRESULTS:
The mean number of hot flashes per day was reduced from 8.7 (standard deviation [SD], 3.9) to 6.2 (SD, 4.2) in the true acupuncture group and from 10.0 (SD, 6.1) to 7.6 (SD, 5.7) in the sham group. True acupuncture was associated with 0.8 fewer hot flashes per day than sham at 6 weeks, but the difference did not reach statistical significance (95% CI, -0.7 to 2.4; P = .3). When participants in the sham acupuncture group were crossed over to true acupuncture, a further reduction in the frequency of hot flashes was seen. This reduction in hot flash frequency persisted for up to 6 months after the completion of treatment.
CONCLUSION:
Hot flash frequency in breast cancer patients was reduced following acupuncture. However, when compared with sham acupuncture, the reduction by the acupuncture regimen as provided in the current study did not reach statistical significance. We cannot exclude the possibility that a longer and more intense acupuncture intervention could produce a larger reduction of these symptoms.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16178942
QuoteRESULTS:
Patients who received only medical management did not demonstrate improvement in any of the standardized measures. Daily pain severity scores trended downward but did not differ between treatment groups (P= .60). Relative to medical management only, medical management plus acupuncture was associated with an improvement of 3.0 points (95% CI, 1.0 to 4.9) on the Headache Impact Test and an increase of 8 or more points on the role limitations due to physical problems, social functioning, and general mental health domains of the Short Form 36 Health Survey. Patients who received acupuncture were 3.7 times more likely (CI, 1.7 to 8.1) to report less suffering from headaches at 6 weeks (absolute risk reduction 46%; number needed to treat 2).
CONCLUSION:
Headache-specialty medical management alone was not associated with improved clinical outcomes among our study population. Supplementing medical management with acupuncture, however, resulted in improvements in health-related QoL and the perception by patients that they suffered less from headaches.
http://www.cmaj.ca/content/184/4/401.abstract
QuoteRESULTS:
Compared with patients in the control group, patients in the acupuncture groups reported fewer days with a migraine during weeks 5–8, however the differences between treatments were not significant (p > 0.05). There was a significant reduction in the number of days with a migraine during weeks 13–16 in all acupuncture groups compared with control (Shaoyang-specific acupuncture v. control: difference –1.06 [95% confidence interval (CI) –1.77 to –0.5], p = 0.003; Shaoyang-nonspecific acupuncture v. control: difference –1.22 [95% CI –1.92 to –0.52], p < 0.001; Yangming-specific acupuncture v. control: difference –0.91 [95% CI –1.61 to –0.21], p = 0.011). We found that there was a significant, but not clinically relevant, benefit for almost all secondary outcomes in the three acupuncture groups compared with the control group. We found no relevant differences between the three acupuncture groups.
INTERPRETATION:
Acupuncture tested appeared to have a clinically minor effect on migraine prophylaxis compared with sham acupuncture.
http://www.hindawi.com/journals/ecam/2012/309762/
Quote5. Conclusion
According to this study, acupuncture is a highly acceptable adjunctive medical modality that could be integrated into current hospital systems. However, in this already short-stay population, it was unable to reduce length of stay.
I suggest Neurontin (gabapentin), they prescribe it for just about everything, and it's not scheduled (unlike its close cousin Lyrica [pregabalin] which is Schedule V, iirc).
Quote from: Jacob on June 04, 2012, 08:40:28 PM
According to the first google hits I got for "randomized acupuncture control trial", it seems acupuncture rates as being somewhat effective (varied from "moderate" to "positive but not statistically significant in this study". I'm not sure how credible the studies are, but here they are:
Hmm. Alright, the main resource physicians go to these days for meta-analysis of all of the studies out here is a service called UpToDate. It's behind an institutional pay wall so I can't link it directly, but here's their verdict on the whole body of evidence for acupuncture.
Quote from: UpToDate article on acupuncture
Summary — These studies suggest that there is little difference in the effects on pain between acupuncture and sham acupuncture. A meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials of acupuncture for pain that included both sham acupuncture and no treatment arms (three-armed trials) found that the superiority of acupuncture over sham acupuncture, if real, appeared to be too small to be clinically important [114].
One likely explanation for the results is that both acupuncture and sham acupuncture moderate pain through a strong placebo effect. An alternate possibility is that sham needling at nonacupuncture points to minimal depths has physiologic effects on pain. Against this latter possibility is the result of a randomized trial that examined the effects of acupuncture and sham acupuncture on postoperative nausea and vomiting [62]. This trial used a sham device that did not penetrate the skin and still found similar effects with acupuncture and sham acupuncture.
As discussed above, it is difficult to know whether acupuncture constrained by the requirements of a clinical trial has the same efficacy as when it is performed according to the practitioner's preferences. However the marked superiority of acupuncture and sham acupuncture over untreated controls demonstrates the strong effects of treatment seen even under study conditions.
So do acupuncture, sham acupuncture, magnet therapy, chiropractic manipulation, rain dances, prayer, or sugar pills. It'll have more benefit for subjective symptoms (e.g. pain) than doing nothing. But it's likely that acupuncture isn't what's relieving the person's symptoms given that there is little to no benefit over "sham" acupuncture (defined as needles at non-traditional points, without proper penetration.) The belief that an intervention can provide relief can result in the patient feeling relief when you're dealing with subjective symptoms rather than objective symptoms.