From the LA Times, circa 2010; don't ask how I tripped over it.
But it is an interesting read. Some interesting little "what ifs" and for those of you that know "Empire" was the epoch, well...we know who to blame for all that, now don't we?
QuoteDid 'Star Wars' become a toy story? Producer Gary Kurtz looks back
LA TIMES Aug. 12, 2010
"We had no idea what we were starting," said Kurtz, who was the producer of the first two "Star Wars" films and also a second-unit director. "That simple concept changed Hollywood in a way...."
There was a bittersweet tinge to Kurtz's voice, and it's no surprise. This year is the 30th anniversary of "The Empire Strikes Back," the "Star Wars" sequel that many fans consider the pinnacle moment in a franchise that has pulled in $16 billion in box office and merchandising. But 1980 was also the year that Kurtz and Lucas realized the Jedi universe wasn't big enough for the both of them.
"I could see where things were headed," Kurtz said. "The toy business began to drive the [Lucasfilm] empire. It's a shame. They make three times as much on toys as they do on films. It's natural to make decisions that protect the toy business, but that's not the best thing for making quality films."
He added: "The first film and 'Empire' were about story and character, but I could see that George's priorities were changing."
This weekend, Kurtz steps back into the "Star Wars" galaxy as a special guest at Star Wars Celebration V, a massive convention in Orlando, Fla., organized by Lucasfilm and expected to draw thousands of fans who will come to buy collectibles, attend panels, get cast-member autographs or even visit the event's themed tattoo parlor or wedding chapel.
Kurtz's presence speaks to his vital role in the franchise's history — he is, for instance, the one who came up with the title for "The Empire Strikes Back" — but the Lucasfilm leadership is already fretting about the Jedi galaxy expatriate's appearance. They may have good reason; during a recent visit to Los Angeles, the filmmaker, who just turned 70, showed a willingness to speak out against the priorities of an old partner.
"The emphasis on the toys, it's like the cart driving the horse," Kurtz said. "If it wasn't for that the films would be done for their own merits. The creative team wouldn't be looking over their shoulder all the time."
No fan of conflict, Kurtz has remained relatively quiet through the years but over coffee on a sunny Southern California afternoon he spoke at length about his lightsaber days.
Like many fans, Kurtz — who characterizes his relationship with Lucas as "professional" — was too invested in the "Star Wars" universe to skip the second trilogy: 1999's "Star Wars: Episode I — The Phantom Menace," 2002's "Star Wars: Episode II — Attack of the Clones" and 2005's "Star Wars: Episode III — Revenge of the Sith." (Lucas retitled the three original movies as "Star Wars: Episode IV — A New Hope," "Star Wars: Episode V — The Empire Strikes Back" and "Star Wars: Episode VI — Return of the Jedi.") But as he sat in the dark with the follow-up "Star Wars" films, he squirmed in his seat.
"I don't like the idea of prequels, they make the filmmakers back in to material they've already covered and it boxes in the story," Kurtz said. "I think they did a pretty good job with them although I have to admit I never liked Hayden Christensen in the role of Anakin Skywalker. I just wished the stories had been stronger and that the dialogue had been stronger. It gets meek. I'm not sure the characters ever felt real like they did in 'Empire.'"
A spokeswoman for George Lucas said he was unavailable for comment.
Kurtz's sentiments speak to a churning pop-culture debate about the enduring legacy of Lucas and the trajectory of his still-unfolding "Star Wars" mythology. The first trilogy of films ended in 1983 with "Return of the Jedi" and the second trilogy brought a whole new generation into the universe but also left many fans of the original feeling sour or disengaged. A seventh feature film, an animated movie called "The Clone Wars," was released in 2008, which, along with video games and toys, speaks to a young 21st century constituency that may be only vaguely aware of the 1977 film.
The same passion pulling fans to Orlando also stokes the debate about Lucas and his creation. Alexandre Philippe is the director of "The People vs. George Lucas," a documentary that just had its West Coast premiere at the Los Angeles Film Festival. He says that Kurtz has become a figure of integrity to the fans who believe that Lucas has followed the wrong path.
Philippe said the departure of Kurtz was a major moment in "Star Wars" history and deeply unsettling to all involved. "The cast and crew were crushed when George and Gary went their separate ways," said Philippe, who added that Mark Hamill, who portrayed Luke Skywalker, later explained it in broken-family terminology. "He said it was like mom and dad getting a divorce. They were both equally loved and respected on the set."
For Kurtz, the popular notion that "Star Wars" was always planned as a multi-film epic is laughable. He says that he and Lucas, both USC film school grads who met through mutual friend Francis Ford Coppola in the late 1960s, first sought to do a simple adaptation of "Flash Gordon," the comic-strip hero who had been featured in movie serials that both filmmakers found charming.
"We tried to buy the rights to 'Flash Gordon' from King Features but the deal would have been prohibitive," Kurtz said. "They wanted too much money, too much control, so starting over and creating from scratch was the answer."
Lucas came up with a sprawling treatment that pulled from "Flash Gordon," Arthurian legend, "The Hidden Fortress" and other influences. The document would have required a five-hour film but there was a middle portion that could be carved out as a stand-alone movie. Kurtz championed the project in pitch meetings with studios and worked intensely on casting, scouting locations and finding a way to create a believable alien universe on a tight budget.
"Our plan was to do 'Star Wars' and then make 'Apocalypse Now' and do a black comedy in the vein of 'M*A*S*H*,'" Kurtz said. "Fox insisted on a sequel or maybe two [to 'Star Wars']. Francis [Ford Coppola] ... had bought the ["Apocalypse Now"] rights so George could make it. He eventually got tired of waiting and did it on his own, of course."
The team of Lucas and Kurtz would not hold together during their own journey through the jungles of collaborative filmmaking. Kurtz chooses his words carefully on the topic of their split.
After the release of "Empire" (which was shaped by material left over from that first Lucas treatment), talk turned to a third film and after a decade and a half the partners could no longer find a middle ground.
"We had an outline and George changed everything in it," Kurtz said. "Instead of bittersweet and poignant he wanted a euphoric ending with everybody happy. The original idea was that they would recover [the kidnapped] Han Solo in the early part of the story and that he would then die in the middle part of the film in a raid on an Imperial base. George then decided he didn't want any of the principals killed. By that time there were really big toy sales and that was a reason."
The discussed ending of the film that Kurtz favored presented the rebel forces in tatters, Leia grappling with her new duties as queen and Luke walking off alone "like Clint Eastwood in the spaghetti westerns," as Kurtz put it.
Kurtz said that ending would have been a more emotionally nuanced finale to an epic adventure than the forest celebration of the Ewoks that essentially ended the trilogy with a teddy bear luau.
He was especially disdainful of the Lucas idea of a second Death Star, which he felt would be too derivative of the 1977 film. "So we agreed that I should probably leave."
Kurtz went straight over to "The Dark Crystal," a three-year project with old friend Jim Henson, whom Kurtz had brought in on the creation of Yoda for "Empire."
After that he shifted into a lower gear as far as his career and, relocating to England, turned to British television productions. He's now working on a ramping feature-film project called "Panzer 88" that he says will begin filming later this year and will feature visual effects by Weta, the same New Zealand outfit that populated Middle-earth in the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy.
The producer said that huge films hold little allure for him now and that he is more interested in smaller, more nimble productions that put an emphasis on "human stories." That might speak to his alienation from the "Star Wars" universe, but when he talks about Lucas and their shared history the stories are still tinted by nostalgia, admiration and affection.
On casting the 1977 film: "We had a lot of people, hundreds, that we saw. It was quick and dirty. You talk to each person, jot down a note or two. Are they a score of five or higher? Do they deserve a callback? On those lists were a lot of interesting people — John Travolta, Sly Stallone — who were great but just not right. I went to New York to do an interview with Jodie Foster, for instance, but she was just too young for Leia. A lot of it comes down to luck and timing."
On Harrison Ford, who became a Hollywood icon after "Star Wars" but keeps the fervent fandom at arm's length: "He's always been somewhat cynical, since the beginning of his career, about everything. In a way he tried not to take notoriety or the fans too seriously. Movies are movies and real life is his ranch."
On the moment he knew that "Star Wars" was becoming a pop-culture sensation: "On opening day I was on the East Coast and I did the morning-show circuit — 'Good Morning America' and 'Today' ... in the afternoon I did a radio call-in show in Washington and this guy, this caller, was really enthusiastic and talking about the movie in really deep detail. I said, 'You know a lot abut the film.' He said, 'Yeah, yeah, I've seen it four times already.' And that was opening day. I knew something was happening."
Kurtz isn't sure what to expect in Orlando but he says that "Empire" may be the shining moment of his career, the confluence of commercial and artistic success. His work as a second-unit director and his hands-on efforts with the visual effects make him especially proud.
"I took a master class with Billy Wilder once and he said that in the first act of a story you put your character up in a tree and the second act you set the tree on fire and then in the third you get him down," Kurtz said. " 'Empire' was the tree on fire. The first movie was like a comic book, a fantasy, but 'Empire' felt darker and more compelling. It's the one, for me, where everything went right. And it was my goodbye to a big part of my life."
My God, can you imagine the train wreck Apocalypse Now would've been if Lucas had directed it?
Quotethat essentially ended the trilogy with a teddy bear luau.
No shit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np6vAuS0KNs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np6vAuS0KNs) :D
I like the ewoks, but my favorite part of Jedi was always the opening part on Tatooine.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 12, 2012, 09:48:12 PM
I like the ewoks,
Go fuck yourself and your teddy bears.
Speaking of Lucas, I saw Red Tails. Cliche city.
Fuck you Lucas.
Killing Han in the middle of the movie would've sucked. Maybe killing him at the end, had he flown the Falcon against the Death Star, and his death advanced something. But not getting picked off by some stormtrooper on the Forest Moon.
"Emotionally nuanced"? Motherfucker ever seen the movies he made? AIN'T A GRITTY REALISTIC WAR STORY GUY
P.S.: Luke did walk off alone. Did you see him with anybody? Yeah, a bunch of dead people. Awesome for him, right?
P.P.S.: Yes, the idea of Lucas directing Apocalypse Now is chilling.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 12, 2012, 10:01:24 PM
Killing Han in the middle of the movie would've sucked. Maybe killing him at the end, had he flown the Falcon against the Death Star, and his death advanced something. But not getting picked off by some stormtrooper on the Forest Moon.
In retrospect maybe. He had already been gone for a long time by that point. Also it is a "war" movie, every death doesn't need to advance something, sometimes good guys die for no good reason.
Quote
P.S.: Luke did walk off alone. Did you see him with anybody? Yeah, a bunch of dead people. Awesome for him, right?
He wasn't alone, his sister was almost dry-humping him.
QuoteP.P.S.: Yes, the idea of Lucas directing Apocalypse Now is chilling.
No kidding.
I think Kurtz's complaints have been floating around the internet amongst Star Wars fans for a decade now. I remember some of my friends who were really into Star Wars showing articles where Kurtz was bitching. Eh, I'm not that big of a Star Wars fans. I liked the films okay. I thought the third one started off well, thought blowing up the death star again was a silly idea. I did like the initial battle in the desert with the slug guy. That was exciting and interesting.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 12, 2012, 10:01:24 PM
"Emotionally nuanced"? Motherfucker ever seen the movies he made? AIN'T A GRITTY REALISTIC WAR STORY GUY
You sir, are obviously not emotionally nuanced.
QuoteP.S.: Luke did walk off alone. Did you see him with anybody? Yeah, a bunch of dead people. Awesome for him, right?
I dunno; last time I saw him, he was at a teddy bear luau.
It wasn't really a war movie though.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 12, 2012, 10:19:23 PM
I dunno; last time I saw him, he was at a teddy bear luau.
There was an additional 15 minutes to the ending where the bears tore apart Luke and ate him while raping Leia, but Lucas came to the conclusion that it clashed with the overall tone.
It's sad how, with the tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars he would have made normally had he not reduced the franchise to a mere marketing machine, Lucas would be prepared to sabotage his magnum opus and reputation to make still more money.
Sure, buying your 5th luxury car for your collection would be nice, but after some level of material comfort, I'd rather have my immortal works live on as best I could make them.
Quote from: sbr on April 12, 2012, 10:08:35 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 12, 2012, 10:01:24 PM
P.P.S.: Yes, the idea of Lucas directing Apocalypse Now is chilling.
No kidding.
The horror... The horror...
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 12, 2012, 10:29:39 PM
It's sad how, with the tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars he would have made normally had he not reduced the franchise to a mere marketing machine, Lucas would be prepared to sabotage his magnum opus and reputation to make still more money.
Sure, buying your 5th luxury car for your collection would be nice, but after some level of material comfort, I'd rather have my immortal works live on as best I could make them.
He already has loyalty of millions of nerds. Would making the films better change anything? Nobody was going to think this was high art.
Yeah I remember thinking it was silly they did the Death Star thing again.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 12, 2012, 10:29:39 PM
It's sad how, with the tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars he would have made normally had he not reduced the franchise to a mere marketing machine, Lucas would be prepared to sabotage his magnum opus and reputation to make still more money.
Sure, buying your 5th luxury car for your collection would be nice, but after some level of material comfort, I'd rather have my immortal works live on as best I could make them.
Didn't stop Gene Roddenberry.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
He already has loyalty of millions of nerds. Would making the films better change anything? Nobody was going to think this was high art.
Lucas is a pretty hated man. I used to think he was laughing all the way to the bank but it seems to have really gotten to him.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 12, 2012, 09:53:44 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 12, 2012, 09:48:12 PM
I like the ewoks,
Go fuck yourself and your teddy bears.
Not my fault you were too old to appreciate it when it came out.
Quote from: Valmy on April 12, 2012, 10:43:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
He already has loyalty of millions of nerds. Would making the films better change anything? Nobody was going to think this was high art.
Lucas is a pretty hated man. I used to think he was laughing all the way to the bank but it seems to have really gotten to him.
In 1984? This is before the prequels.
Quote from: Valmy on April 12, 2012, 10:43:25 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
He already has loyalty of millions of nerds. Would making the films better change anything? Nobody was going to think this was high art.
Lucas is a pretty hated man. I used to think he was laughing all the way to the bank but it seems to have really gotten to him.
IIRC, one of GL's goals was to become independent of the film studios to be able to pursue his "artistic vision". After Star Wars and Indy he's basically achieved that to a very large degree. Problem is that his visions aren't as popular as he thought they might be and that by the time of the prequels he was surrounded by yes-men who didn't dare challenge his ideas and concepts.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2012, 10:59:48 PM
In 1984? This is before the prequels.
I thought you were asking if things would have turned out differently if the films had been better.
Quote from: Valmy on April 12, 2012, 11:32:12 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2012, 10:59:48 PM
In 1984? This is before the prequels.
I thought you were asking if things would have turned out differently if the films had been better.
Eh, I was thinking about the third one. Even with the teddy bears it had the fanboy devotion.
Quote from: Syt on April 12, 2012, 11:15:54 PM
Problem is that his visions aren't as popular as he thought they might be and that by the time of the prequels he was surrounded by yes-men who didn't dare challenge his ideas and concepts.
The prequels made a shitload of money. But man I was amazed at the time and am still rather puzzled by just how bad they were as films. It is almost like Lucas forgot the basics of how to do a script and develope characters and make story arcs and the whole deal.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2012, 11:35:26 PM
Eh, I was thinking about the third one. Even with the teddy bears it had the fanboy devotion.
It is because people loved the characters. And it was not like Return of the Jedi wasn't without its moments. It just seemed to lack coherence in a way the previous ones didn't. The three climaxes at the same time was particularly awkward I think.
Quote from: Valmy on April 12, 2012, 11:40:07 PM
The three climaxes at the same time was particularly awkward I think.
That's what she said...
Sorry, couldn't resist. :P
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2012, 10:38:05 PM
He already has loyalty of millions of nerds. Would making the films better change anything? Nobody was going to think this was high art.
It doesn't need to be "high art" to achieve greatness. There is such a thing as demotic great art. And I think had Lucas kept up the quality of episodes 4 and 5, he could be remembered as a visionary who created an immortal story that drew on our universal archetypes, instead of how he is thought of now.
Regarding using the Star Wars franchise to finance other visions, one can't help be reminded of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle who felt the same about his Sherlock Holmes books. Of course, nobody remembers anything about him now but the Sherlock Holmes stories...
Lucas followed his vision: make money and use racist stereotypes.
Actually I think that the later movies demonstrate how he later refocused on artistic vision. He can't seriously have believed that total crap would maximize his profits, but he went for it anyway. His vision demanded Der Stürmer level antisemitism and minstrel show sensitivity to black issues.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 12, 2012, 10:56:28 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 12, 2012, 09:53:44 PM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 12, 2012, 09:48:12 PM
I like the ewoks,
Go fuck yourself and your teddy bears.
Not my fault you were too old to appreciate it when it came out.
I was 14. It was enough to wreck my childhood.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 12, 2012, 09:36:35 PM
My God, can you imagine the train wreck Apocalypse Now would've been if Lucas had directed it?
"Mr Clean's My first Bong (weed not included)" toy set as merchandise. Weed would have been made legal decades ago.
Chef's Severed Head Playset?
Quote from: Neil on April 13, 2012, 07:30:49 AM
Chef's Severed Head Playset?
Never Get Out Of The Boat That's Goddamned Right Boat Action Set!
Return of the Jedi should have forced Luke to decide between taking control of the Empire, destroying the Empire (but also Tatooine for some reason), and turning into a pie. Only this would have reflected the fact that you cannot have a true victory where everyone celebrates a triumph over evil because it's art, man.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2012, 06:07:47 AM
I was 14. It was enough to wreck my childhood.
Most people are well into adolescence by 14. :P Though some of us never leave it. :blush:
Actually, this is making me look at the way I've defended Jedi, and it's making me realize that I've been defending it on the merits of some cherrypicked parts- the rescue at Jabba's palace, the space battle (ignoring the giant "PART 2" hovering over the whole thing), the showdown when we weren't sure if one or two people would make it out of the throne room, or which ones it would be...
Also, I suspect Leia getting shot in the arm was probably the point where Han was supposed to bite it. In retrospect, it was kind of OOC for Leia to be hanging out in the open, firing off her gun, while Han was cowering behind the door frame.
Long story short, if I stop and look at it objectively, Jedi had a lot of potential, but it was strung together with a lot of weak, fanwanky filler (Death Star 2, Ewoks, Line to Nowhere about "Many Bothans died to bring you this information..."). I'm usually more a fan of happy endings, but Jedi's did feel contrived (Luke spent the whole movie alienating everyone just to get pulled back in to the party? WTF?).
In his defense Lucas did fix Return of the Jedi some years later.
Well yeah it was not like Jedi did not have some great scenes. Darth Vader arriving at the new Deathstar at the beginning was just awesome. But as a film it was pretty weak because it failed on the basics of story telling, the very things they did so well in the first two films.
I was like at some point Lucas was just like 'plot arcs, characters, writing, bah who needs em'. While it was annoying in Jedi it still had the characters we had grown to love from the first two films so overall it was an enjoyable film. But man those problems came back in spades in the prequels and this time there was no solid foundation that had us invested to save it....as a good films anyway. As a revenue generating franchise the prequels were brilliantly marketed, particularly with all the toys and video games and all that noise, and a huge success.
If Lucas had had complete creative control and mountains of money to do whatever he wanted back in '77 the original Star Wars would have turned out a lot like the prequels, which is to say like absolute shit. Thank god Lucas was surrounded by people who actually knew how to make movies back then.
Anyway, the Red Letter media dudes interviewed Alexander Phillipe, the guy who made the film documentary "The People vs. George Lucas" referred to in the article. It's a pretty interesting discussion about the films and George Lucas as a director. Here's the link. (http://redlettermedia.com/half-in-the-bag/the-people-vs-george-lucas-and-star-wars-discussion/)
Quote from: DontSayBanana on April 13, 2012, 10:50:04 AM
Actually, this is making me look at the way I've defended Jedi, and it's making me realize that I've been defending it on the merits of some cherrypicked parts- the rescue at Jabba's palace, the space battle (ignoring the giant "PART 2" hovering over the whole thing), the showdown when we weren't sure if one or two people would make it out of the throne room, or which ones it would be...
Oh, please...the thing with those movies was exactly that: so goody-goody, you knew exactly how it was going to unfold. You knew Luke would survive, the Emperor would fail, and Vader would find salvation.
QuoteAlso, I suspect Leia getting shot in the arm was probably the point where Han was supposed to bite it. In retrospect, it was kind of OOC for Leia to be hanging out in the open, firing off her gun, while Han was cowering behind the door frame.
Any gunslinger worth his salt knows you take cover. Too bad her ass didn't learn that in fucking princess school.
QuoteLong story short, if I stop and look at it objectively, Jedi had a lot of potential, but it was strung together with a lot of weak, fanwanky filler (Death Star 2, Ewoks, Line to Nowhere about "Many Bothans died to bring you this information..."). I'm usually more a fan of happy endings, but Jedi's did feel contrived (Luke spent the whole movie alienating everyone just to get pulled back in to the party? WTF?).
The Jews didn't win at Jerusalem in 71AD, the the Spartans didn't win at Thermopylae, and Teddy Bears don't win against an entire legion of the Emperor's best troops.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2012, 11:25:36 AM
QuoteAlso, I suspect Leia getting shot in the arm was probably the point where Han was supposed to bite it. In retrospect, it was kind of OOC for Leia to be hanging out in the open, firing off her gun, while Han was cowering behind the door frame.
Any gunslinger worth his salt knows you take cover. Too bad her ass didn't learn that in fucking princess school.
Also, she was completely coked up and probably thought she was invincible.
Also, I've recently watched the Star Wars XXX Parody. It was surprisingly funny.
"Your father was the best starpilot in the galaxy."
"My uncle said he was a psychotic whiner."
"And the best starpilot!"
"How did my father die?"
"He was killed by Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine, until I cut his arms and legs off and left him burning in lava . . . "
". . . I want to go home now."
Quote from: Syt on April 13, 2012, 11:34:10 AM
"He was killed by Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine, until I cut his arms and legs off and left him burning in lava . . . "
And that's why you don't do prequels unless you know what you're talking about.
"I was telling the truth...from a certain point of view." Really, Sir Alec? That's the best you can do?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2012, 11:25:36 AM
Oh, please...the thing with those movies was exactly that: so goody-goody, you knew exactly how it was going to unfold. You knew Luke would survive, the Emperor would fail, and Vader would find salvation.
The throne room throwdown was easily the best part of the film, and belongs right up there with the Trench Run and Luke v. Vader Part 1.
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 13, 2012, 11:45:06 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2012, 11:25:36 AM
Oh, please...the thing with those movies was exactly that: so goody-goody, you knew exactly how it was going to unfold. You knew Luke would survive, the Emperor would fail, and Vader would find salvation.
The throne room throwdown was easily the best part of the film, and belongs right up there with the Trench Run and Luke v. Vader Part 1.
NOOO
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 13, 2012, 11:45:06 AM
The throne room throwdown was easily the best part of the film,
Yeah, but that still ain't saying much.
Quoteand belongs right up there with the Trench Run and Luke v. Vader Part 1.
Sure, if you rank it #3 on that list.
But nothing will beat Vader schooling Skywalker. :) He honestly tried to kill that snotty motherfucker.
I'll agree with that.
I think the thing to note in Empire's duel was that Vader was sorta toying with Luke the whole time, and I take him at his word that he wanted Luke to join him to defeat the Emperor and to rule the galaxy together.
What's interesting about the ROTJ duel is that yeah, Luke has improved as a fighter but he still isn't really a match for Vader. He only defeats Vader once he UNLEASHES THE HATE-HULK after Vader taunts him about turning his sister to the dark side.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2012, 11:51:39 AM
Sure, if you rank it #3 on that list.
But nothing will beat Vader schooling Skywalker. :) He honestly tried to kill that snotty motherfucker.
:huh: Eh, what? He chucked a few things at Luke and then that snotty motherfucker threw a temper tantrum and took a die-dive. At least, in Jedi, he didn't let up until Luke beat the old man into a wheezy standstill.
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 13, 2012, 12:02:07 PM
I think the thing to note in Empire's duel was that Vader was sorta toying with Luke the whole time, and I take him at his word that he wanted Luke to join him to defeat the Emperor and to rule the galaxy together.
Oh, I disagree; Vader's offensive stance and strikes were by no means parrying blows or attempts to string out the combat; he was definitely taking major cut strikes, and trying to whack that motherfucker.
As far as I'm concerned, my interpretation of Vader's approach was: if he joins, fine, if I kill him, that's fine, too. He only tried to get Luke to join when he was no longer in a position to slice off his other fucking hand.
QuoteWhat's interesting about the ROTJ duel is that yeah, Luke has improved as a fighter but he still isn't really a match for Vader. He only defeats Vader once he UNLEASHES THE HATE-HULK after Vader taunts him about turning his sister to the dark side.
Concur. Although I was immensely disappointed in Vader's inability to parry such an undisciplined attack. He was, after all, bigger stronger faster.
I'd have to watch the movie again, but if I remember correctly Vader is fighting one-handed throughout the first portion of the fight, which might indicate that he's pulling his punches a little. He's trying to trick Luke or injure him enough to turn him into a klondike bar with the carbonite freezer thingie.
You're right I think when they're fighting on the catwalk later on in the duel. Vader lunges viciously at him from ambuscade. I guess he's tired of Luke's crap now. Especially after Luke nicks him on the shoulder. I figure he's said "Fuck it, I'll do it live" and just takes Luke's hand off.
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 13, 2012, 12:30:04 PM
I'd have to watch the movie again, but if I remember correctly Vader is fighting one-handed throughout the first portion of the fight, which might indicate that he's pulling his punches a little. He's trying to trick Luke or injure him enough to turn him into a klondike bar with the carbonite freezer thingie.
You're right I think when they're fighting on the catwalk later on in the duel. Vader lunges viciously at him from ambuscade. I guess he's tired of Luke's crap now. Especially after Luke nicks him on the shoulder. I figure he's said "Fuck it, I'll do it live" and just takes Luke's hand off.
Sorta; he's still aggressive in the carbonite room, though; tried to curb stomp that fucker from the top of the stairs.
But once he pulled the trigger on the freezer and missed the opportunity, it was game on.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2012, 11:25:36 AM
Too bad her ass didn't learn that in fucking princess school.
There is a whole school just for fucking princesses? I wonder how I can enroll...
Quote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2012, 02:13:38 PMThere is a whole school just for fucking princesses? I wonder how I can enroll...
Just dress like a princess.
This thread reminds me of my foolproof detection method for discovering fucking faggots. All you have to do is ask someone if they hate Return of the Jedi. If they say yes, they're a fucking faggot.
Quote from: Neil on April 13, 2012, 04:31:27 PM
This thread reminds me of my foolproof detection method for discovering fucking faggots. All you have to do is ask someone if they hate Return of the Jedi. If they say yes, they're a fucking faggot.
Bet you used to masturbate into your stuffed Ewok.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 12, 2012, 09:36:35 PM
My God, can you imagine the train wreck Apocalypse Now would've been if Lucas had directed it?
Sweet Jesus :mellow:
Stopped reading when I got to that bit :bleeding:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2012, 04:37:45 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 13, 2012, 04:31:27 PM
This thread reminds me of my foolproof detection method for discovering fucking faggots. All you have to do is ask someone if they hate Return of the Jedi. If they say yes, they're a fucking faggot.
Bet you used to masturbate into your stuffed Ewok.
Never had a stuffed Ewok. Besides, why would anyone masturbate to anything Star Wars related other than Carrie Fisher in the gold bikini?
Quote from: Neil on April 13, 2012, 04:31:27 PM
This thread reminds me of my foolproof detection method for discovering fucking faggots. All you have to do is ask someone if they hate Return of the Jedi. If they say yes, they're a fucking faggot.
If they say no, they are also fucking faggots.
It is, indeed, foolproof.
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2012, 06:49:23 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 13, 2012, 04:31:27 PM
This thread reminds me of my foolproof detection method for discovering fucking faggots. All you have to do is ask someone if they hate Return of the Jedi. If they say yes, they're a fucking faggot.
If they say no, they are also fucking faggots.
No, probably not.
I'm a non-fucking faggot...I'm Marti? :(
Quote from: Neil on April 13, 2012, 06:53:20 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2012, 06:49:23 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 13, 2012, 04:31:27 PM
This thread reminds me of my foolproof detection method for discovering fucking faggots. All you have to do is ask someone if they hate Return of the Jedi. If they say yes, they're a fucking faggot.
If they say no, they are also fucking faggots.
No, probably not.
Only a fucking faggot would say that. It's foolproof, as you say.
In the MMORPG alien NPCs talk a lot about "chunky faggota". :hmm:
I actually like ROTJ, but I agree that Empire is way better. But I always found the Jabba scenes to be awesome, as well as the final battle on the Death Star, Vader's death, etc. The Endor scenes... :x
Quote from: Caliga on April 14, 2012, 05:21:00 AM
I actually like ROTJ, but I agree that Empire is way better. But I always found the Jabba scenes to be awesome, as well as the final battle on the Death Star, Vader's death, etc. The Endor scenes... :x
If they had made the Ewoks a tribe of Wookies and had the imperial shuttle full of advanced weaponry to buy the support of one of the wookie tribes then that whole thing would have made much more sense. The Ewoks pissed me off at the time and I was 8 back then.
My inner Lucas apologist always told me the Ewoks were just poorly costumed- that they were meant to be essentially little furry lumps of muscle. An angry wookiee might be able to pull the arms off a gundark, but I figured the average angry ewok could still pull the arms off a stormtrooper. Since the garrison's heavy vehicle complement seemed to only be 4 AT-STs and 1 AT-AT, it seemed believable to me that the rebels could whip the little fellas into a frenzy and take out a good enough portion of the foot soldiers to even the odds. It also made the slingshot scenes a little more palatable- it was a lot easier to stomach when I figured the stormies were being pelted with the equivalent of a small avalanche.
I think GL said a few years ago that (retcon alert) the Ewok attack was only a diversion at the bunker back door, not a full fledged frontal assault.
Quote from: Syt on April 14, 2012, 06:35:06 AM
I think GL said a few years ago that (retcon alert) the Ewok attack was only a diversion at the bunker back door, not a full fledged frontal assault.
:bleeding: One shuttle. One freaking shuttle which held, what, a squad of 20? No armored troops, no suppression fire (since the Rebels don't seem to be able to drop a pair of stormies and "liberate" an E-WEB)...
Perfect segue: thank God Coppola didn't let Lucas do Apocalypse Now. <_<
I like to think of the entire Ewok thing as propaganda. Probably not at all what REALLY happened, but it made for a nice PR story, and who was there to say different than the official Rebel sources?
I've actually thought a "non-fiction" history of the Rebellion told in the style of a military historian that only used "canon" as an assumed biased source would be kind of a cool idea for a series of books.
Quote from: Berkut on April 14, 2012, 08:24:35 AM
I like to think of the entire Ewok thing as propaganda. Probably not at all what REALLY happened, but it made for a nice PR story, and who was there to say different than the official Rebel sources?
I've actually thought a "non-fiction" history of the Rebellion told in the style of a military historian that only used "canon" as an assumed biased source would be kind of a cool idea for a series of books.
"And then this nobody from the ass end of tatooine who just miraculously happened to be the son of Lord Vader, Brother of Princess Senator Leia and Pupil of General Kenobi showed up at the last minute was given, despite his total lack of training on the equipment, an X-Wing fighter and got a lucky shot which destroyed the Death Star."
No, I think not. I prefer not knowing, trying to compare some idiotic tripe to the aura of coolness that missing history has in my head will only sully Star Wars. It's unnecessary exposition, just like Midichlorians.
Quote from: Berkut on April 14, 2012, 08:24:35 AM
I like to think of the entire Ewok thing as propaganda. Probably not at all what REALLY happened, but it made for a nice PR story, and who was there to say different than the official Rebel sources?
I've actually thought a "non-fiction" history of the Rebellion told in the style of a military historian that only used "canon" as an assumed biased source would be kind of a cool idea for a series of books.
There was a Star Wars comic arc that followed an Imperial company fighting desperately against a large number of primitive aliens. It was basically
Zulu set in the Star Wars universe, with Imperials.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages1.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20090521175915%2Fstarwars%2Fimages%2Fthumb%2F2%2F22%2FBattleofMaridun.jpg%2F830px-BattleofMaridun.jpg&hash=e15e11d3137f0f4b40b2d7fd6d73cc41ffe0d33b)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.wikia.com%2Fstarwars%2Fimages%2Fb%2Fb9%2FSWEMP18-FC.jpg&hash=557de596b8e90855457286d21eb17aabf6bc6601)
A thousand nerd voices just cried out in orgasm.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 14, 2012, 09:20:02 AM
A thousand nerd voices just cried out in orgasm.
If I can't root for the guys killing Imperial Storm Troopers then it isn't Star Wars. It was one of the things that made the first series unsatisfactory. Seeing Yoda fight side by side with Stormtroopers? Unpossible.
The first three movies were supposed to answer the question of how Anakin the good guy (as described by Alec Guiness in A New Hope) became Vader the bad guy. It didn't answer that question satisfactory to any level of credulity.
You guys are over thinking this.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2012, 09:30:32 AM
You guys are over thinking this.
You did not lose much nerd cred, for, God knows, you did not have much to lose; but you lost all you had.
Good. :)
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2012, 09:30:32 AM
You guys are over thinking this.
Dude, I'm paid to be a music and movie snob. It's what I do.
Quote from: Ed Anger on April 14, 2012, 09:20:02 AM
A thousand nerd voices just cried out in orgasm.
No shit. :lol:
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
If I can't root for the guys killing Imperial Storm Troopers then it isn't Star Wars.
Well, the comic has the stormies as cannon fodder. There's a senior, competent commander (later killed), plus a few junior officers. The most junior one is competent, though without connections, so his incompetent colleagues (from wealthy families) scoff at him. The junior gets several battlefield commissions, but they're in the end revoked by high command, because the other surviving officers won't corroborate his story, and he's in fact reprimanded for the high losses and the near destruction of the unit. So there's a bit to hate on in the Imperials.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on April 14, 2012, 10:31:40 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2012, 09:30:32 AM
You guys are over thinking this.
Dude, I'm paid to be a music and movie snob. It's what I do.
I haven't said anything lately, but this seems like an aspirational (gross?) mis-characterization.
What does DSB do?
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 14, 2012, 10:52:56 AM
What does DSB do?
Dunno, In norway they work for disaster and terrorism preparednes as well as setting health and safety standards, while in Denmark they run the trains.
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 14, 2012, 10:52:56 AM
What does DSB do?
When I worked at Barnes & Noble, I was not paid to be a book snob.
Quote from: garbon on April 14, 2012, 11:08:48 AM
Quote from: Pitiful Pathos on April 14, 2012, 10:52:56 AM
What does DSB do?
When I worked at Barnes & Noble, I was not paid to be a book snob.
I suspect you did that for free.... :P
How is liking Star Wars "snobbery" in any way, shape, or form?
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
The first three movies were supposed to answer the question of how Anakin the good guy (as described by Alec Guiness in A New Hope) became Vader the bad guy. It didn't answer that question satisfactory to any level of credulity.
Nope. Totally sucked.
Could've been great on two premises: kept Darth Maul around for the series, and actually made Anakin something other than a whiny little emo cutter fuck.
And filming the massacre of all the little Jeditos at the temple would've been cool.
Alas, we were stuck with a teenage romance, with all the drama of 6th period study hall.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2012, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
The first three movies were supposed to answer the question of how Anakin the good guy (as described by Alec Guiness in A New Hope) became Vader the bad guy. It didn't answer that question satisfactory to any level of credulity.
Nope. Totally sucked.
Could've been great on two premises: kept Darth Maul around for the series,
I disagree there, Darth Maul had to die. What was he going to do, Kill Qui Gong and then run away when, now, he was only fighting Obi Wan? It's Luke that escapes in the original movies, not darth vader.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2012, 11:35:35 AM
and actually made Anakin something other than a whiny little emo cutter fuck.
I can't disagree with that.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2012, 11:35:35 AM
And filming the massacre of all the little Jeditos at the temple would've been cool.
Nope, too many kiddies watching. I would rather have seen the jedi temple destroyed when Anakin was trying to save Padmé by saving poor palpatine who was being held by the power mad jedis who wanted to kill her by not letting palpatine save her life. That would have made more sense.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2012, 11:35:35 AM
Alas, we were stuck with a teenage romance, with all the drama of 6th period study hall.
Jake Lloyd gets to be a little kid and Hayden Christensen gets to be an emo teen. Why an adult Padme would even think about having junior high hayden christensen schtup her isn't exactly magical.
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2012, 12:02:59 PM
I disagree there, Darth Maul had to die. What was he going to do, Kill Qui Gong and then run away when, now, he was only fighting Obi Wan? It's Luke that escapes in the original movies, not darth vader.
Nonsense.
Part of the attraction to Vader is that he had 3 films to develop a true identity of baddie evhulness.
Darth Maul would've been an awesome baddie to continue to develop over time. Alas, he was a cookie cut-out.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2012, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2012, 12:02:59 PM
I disagree there, Darth Maul had to die. What was he going to do, Kill Qui Gong and then run away when, now, he was only fighting Obi Wan? It's Luke that escapes in the original movies, not darth vader.
Nonsense.
Part of the attraction to Vader is that he had 3 films to develop a true identity of baddie evhulness.
Darth Maul would've been an awesome baddie to continue to develop over time. Alas, he was a cookie cut-out.
Aw come on. Vaders baddie evhulness cred is established within 60 seconds of him first appearing on screen. Maul has a full scene of exposition where he is "commanded" to go after our heros.
BTW
C3PO: Did you hear that? They've shut down the main reactors! We'll be destroyed for sure. This is Madness!
R2D2: Beep Beep Wee-Ooo [Madness? This is Sparta!]
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2012, 12:34:03 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2012, 12:13:33 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2012, 12:02:59 PM
I disagree there, Darth Maul had to die. What was he going to do, Kill Qui Gong and then run away when, now, he was only fighting Obi Wan? It's Luke that escapes in the original movies, not darth vader.
Nonsense.
Part of the attraction to Vader is that he had 3 films to develop a true identity of baddie evhulness.
Darth Maul would've been an awesome baddie to continue to develop over time. Alas, he was a cookie cut-out.
Aw come on. Vaders baddie evhulness cred is established within 60 seconds of him first appearing on screen. Maul has a full scene of exposition where he is "commanded" to go after our heros.
No shit. Vader is large and in charge, tossing around some rebel soldier like he was made of pillowfluff, and the Imperial troops defer to him. Maul, on the other hand, just walks around and is talked to. Maul definitely had potential, but the construction of his scenes turned him into a bitch.
Quote from: Neil on April 14, 2012, 01:14:46 PM
No shit. Vader is large and in charge, tossing around some rebel soldier like he was made of pillowfluff, and the Imperial troops defer to him. Maul, on the other hand, just walks around and is talked to. Maul definitely had potential, but the construction of his scenes turned him into a bitch.
Of course it did; after all, this was from the guy that brought you Boba Fett's Death By Bitch.
Oh, yeah, and I'm paid to use my legal expertise to help litigate a major consumer lawsuit.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 14, 2012, 11:35:35 AM
Nope. Totally sucked.
Could've been great on two premises: kept Darth Maul around for the series, and actually made Anakin something other than a whiny little emo cutter fuck.
And filming the massacre of all the little Jeditos at the temple would've been cool.
Alas, we were stuck with a teenage romance, with all the drama of 6th period study hall.
It would have been better if Lucas had actually used backstory material from the Expanded Universe instead of shitting on the whole lot and making things up.
Because the expanded universe wasn't made up? :hmm:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fweknowmemes.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F11%2Fi-would-hit-that-like-the-side-of-a-tree-on-endor.jpg&hash=0d197b483e2ff8f61d3815044db5e3f329d3ebfe)
Quote from: Syt on April 14, 2012, 06:35:06 AM
The first three movies were supposed to answer the question of how Anakin the good guy (as described by Alec Guiness in A New Hope) became Vader the bad guy. It didn't answer that question satisfactory to any level of credulity.
teenager, totally not in control of his emotions, loses his mother to a band of savages, proceed on killing said savages, feels pleasure about this, yet it is contrary to all he is told. Now, he's told the right thing is to let is girlfriend die, he doesn't like it one bit, finally snaps.
Beats becoming a psycho after a wolf bite anytime of the day, imho.
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2012, 12:02:59 PM
Jake Lloyd gets to be a little kid and Hayden Christensen gets to be an emo teen.
Hayden Christensen kept on being an actor after these sub-par performances. That surprised me.
The only other movie I've seen Christensen in is a flick he did before Ep. 2. In it he plays Kevin Kline's emo teenage son.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0159789/
Quote from: viper37 on April 16, 2012, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2012, 12:02:59 PM
Jake Lloyd gets to be a little kid and Hayden Christensen gets to be an emo teen.
Hayden Christensen kept on being an actor after these sub-par performances. That surprised me.
You can't blame the kid. Lucas made everyone involved in the prequels seem retarded. Natalie Portman, Samuel L. Jackson, Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson. Nobody came out looking like a winner in those things.
Quote from: Neil on April 16, 2012, 01:07:17 PM
Quote from: viper37 on April 16, 2012, 12:57:48 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 14, 2012, 12:02:59 PM
Jake Lloyd gets to be a little kid and Hayden Christensen gets to be an emo teen.
Hayden Christensen kept on being an actor after these sub-par performances. That surprised me.
You can't blame the kid. Lucas made everyone involved in the prequels seem retarded. Natalie Portman, Samuel L. Jackson, Ewan McGregor, Liam Neeson. Nobody came out looking like a winner in those things.
Oddly enough, Ian McDiarmid gave the IMHO best performance in the prequels. Up till the "transformation" scene after which he turned the ham up to eleventy-eleven.