Poll
Question:
Who was worst?
Option 1: Irvin Mcdowell
votes: 1
Option 2: George McClellan
votes: 18
Option 3: John Pope
votes: 4
Option 4: Ambrose Burnside
votes: 3
Option 5: Joe Hooker
votes: 4
Option 6: George Meade
votes: 0
Option 7: Ulysses Grant
votes: 2
Yes, I know that Grant and Pope didn't technically command the Army of the Potomac (did McDowell?). I included them anyway. Deal with it.
As far as my vote goes, quite of a few of them were poor commanders. Only McClellan, however, was handed a golden opportunity to destroy the Confederate army piecemeal and pissed it away.
Lil Mac
That sounds like a rapper
Voted for McClellan, he had some good points but they didn't involve actually commanding the army. He should have been able to destroy the Army of Northern Virginia (or badly wound it), at Antietam.
An arguement can be made for Burnside regarding length of command.
If McClellan only had the Peninsula to his credit it might be harder to figure out who was worse, him or Burnside. The inclusion of Antietam* makes it no contest.
What I can't get is why McClellan's troops were so nuts about the guy.
* Do you guys say An-TEE-tum or Aunty Etam?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 06, 2012, 06:58:21 PM
* Do you guys say An-TEE-tum or Aunty Etam?
SHARPS-burg.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 06, 2012, 06:58:21 PM
If McClellan only had the Peninsula to his credit it might be harder to figure out who was worse, him or Burnside. The inclusion of Antietam* makes it no contest.
What I can't get is why McClellan's troops were so nuts about the guy.
* Do you guys say An-TEE-tum or Aunty Etam?
First one. McClellan did a lot to raise morale and fought to get his troops the best amenities. His strategic incompetence wasn't clear at the time, and wouldn't be entirely clear until years after the war. The average soldier didn't know how he badly overestimated the enemy numbers, or how indecisive he was, or that he was a megalomaniac. After all they didn't have access to the statistics concerning the other side, or the opinions of his fellow officers (not to mention Lincoln), or his personal letters. We do have access to all of this and can make a much better judgement of the man.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 06, 2012, 06:58:21 PM
* Do you guys say An-TEE-tum or Aunty Etam?
If you go to the battlefield, the park ranger dudes say "An-TEE-tum". I've never heard the other pronunciation.
McClellan.
And I want to know who the fucker was that voted Grant.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 06, 2012, 08:51:29 PM
McClellan.
And I want to know who the fucker was that voted Grant.
Guess.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 06, 2012, 08:51:29 PM
And I want to know who the fucker was that voted Grant.
Three people voted Hooker. :grr:
Quote from: Caliga on January 06, 2012, 08:20:54 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 06, 2012, 06:58:21 PM
* Do you guys say An-TEE-tum or Aunty Etam?
If you go to the battlefield, the park ranger dudes say "An-TEE-tum". I've never heard the other pronunciation.
I definitely learned it as "An-TEE-tum" in school... never heard the other way either, though I don't get involved in many discussions of Civil War battles in my daily life.
John Pope was, by far, the worst general and person on the list, so by definition the worst commander on the list.
Was it politically possible for Lincoln to replace McClellan quite a lot earlier?
He seems to have done a decent job of constructing the army, but just didn't know how to use it.
McDowell - didn't actually get to command the army. Was following from the generals tent at Bull Run. His generaling can be summed up by the phrase "Hey guys lets go to Mannasses."
McClellan - had some excellent qualities and never forget that he built the Army of the Potomac. McClellan's Army charged Mary's Heights at Fredricksburg, McClellan's Army held Little Round Top and McClellan's Army filled up the Crater. He built the Army of the Republic. Usually the "story" of the ACW is brilliant Southern Generals fighting for glory against solid Union Soldiers fighting for the Union and to make men free. McClellans unwillingness to fight is the fatal flaw.
John Pope - was sabotaged by McClellan and his staff. That said, 2nd Bull Run was really badly generaled. Pope could justifiably argue that his McClellan friendly staff or Stonewall Jackson was the deciding factor rather than himself.
Ambrose Burnside - had the great virtue of knowing he wasn't suited for command at Army level. He marched quickly and almost caught Lee out of position. Delays in getting bridging equipment meant that rather than marching on Richmond he had to assault Mary's heights. At this point the good commander would have refused to attack. Burnside was a good soldier and followed orders, he could have been a great general and sought a battle on better ground.
Joseph Hooker - much like Burnside, moved quickly and did catch Lee out of position. Then had mental breakdown and ceased to be a factor.
George Meade - cautious and careful. Like McClellan after Antitam he refused to pursue after Gettysburg.
U.S. Grant - was never Commander of the AoP, Meade was his army commander. Grant realized what was needed to end the war with victory and agreed with Lincoln. He promptly did that. However he was rightly criticized for his bloody advance through virginia.
To be blunt, once McClellan builds the army the failures are (with the exception of Pope who got fucked over by his staff) at command level. Though, strangely Burnside at Fredricksburg suggests that McClellans caution was sensible and Meads non-pursuite after Gettysburg suggests that McClellans non-pursuite after Antietam was not just his mental issue. All the non-Grant generals didn't understand what was needed to win the War. Burnside and Hooker were able to move their armies into position quickly and aggressively putting Lee in tough positions. McClelland and Mead were not able to move but they were able to win their battles. Pope got fucked over by his staff while McDowell was merelly present during his battle.
I have to vote for McDowell for the simple reason that while he was Commander of the Army he was not in "command". He had none of the virtues of Burnside, Hooker, McClelland or Meade but all of their faults. Pope and Hooker managed to have armies in the field when Stonewall Jackson ambushed them, McDowell had an unsteady rabble when Jackson arrived.
McJaron.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on January 07, 2012, 08:02:00 AM
Was it politically possible for Lincoln to replace McClellan quite a lot earlier?
He seems to have done a decent job of constructing the army, but just didn't know how to use it.
Yes, particularly since so many in Congress despised McClellan. But there was a tremendous amount of pressure Lincoln was dealing with regarding McClellan from other elements on the Hill, the press and the populace, particularly at the outset. McClellan was a known figure at the time, and everything that McClellan had done or accomplished in his career said "this is the guy" to Lincoln, who was humble enough to leave military matters to military men. Even Robert E. Lee said he was one of America's ablest soldiers.
The political value of his victories surrounding Rich Mountain outweighed the military value, but while the AotP was getting its teeth kicked in, there was this young major general recently recalled from civilian life with less then 10,000 troops under his command, met rebel forces several times larger than his own in western Virginia, beat them at every turn and swept his region of the enemy. The press sucked it up, and he proved he could win. And Lincoln waited for that McClellan to appear.
Fucker voted for Douglas, though.
Even when Lincoln acknowledged that McClellan had "the slows" and was not as aggressive as he would've wanted him to be, Lincoln knew McClellan to be a superior engineer and administrator who could build the army he wanted. Hell, that's why he reappointed him to the AtP the second time, to rebuild a demoralized force. It was Lincoln who was the last to want to replace McClellan.
Quote from: Viking on January 07, 2012, 08:04:25 AM
John Pope - was sabotaged by McClellan and his staff. That said, 2nd Bull Run was really badly generaled. Pope could justifiably argue that his McClellan friendly staff or Stonewall Jackson was the deciding factor rather than himself.
Pope did argue that he was betrayed and it wasn't his fault that he got hopelessly "suppressed" by a less-numerous foe whose location and intentions were simply unknowable. The Schofield inquiry (hose conclusions were backed by Grant, Sherman, and Thomas) demonstrated that his excuses were bullshit and he was just an incompetent fuck who could have been beaten by a pack of cranky Cub Scouts. The fact that Pope tried to weasel out of his own blunders by throwing his staff under the bus simply reinforces the historical verdict that he was a serious contender for the worst general of all time.
Quote from: Viking on January 07, 2012, 08:04:25 AM
McClellan's Army filled up the Crater. He built the Army of the Republic.
:hmm: Not a lot of black soldiers in McClellan's army.
Quote from: grumbler on January 07, 2012, 09:42:45 AM
The fact that Pope tried to weasel out of his own blunders by throwing his staff under the bus simply reinforces the historical verdict that he was a serious contender for the worst general of all time.
Wasn't one of McClellan's cronies - Franklin, I think - cashiered for disobeying Pope's orders during 2nd Bull Run?
Quote from: grumbler on January 07, 2012, 09:42:45 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 07, 2012, 08:04:25 AM
John Pope - was sabotaged by McClellan and his staff. That said, 2nd Bull Run was really badly generaled. Pope could justifiably argue that his McClellan friendly staff or Stonewall Jackson was the deciding factor rather than himself.
Pope did argue that he was betrayed and it wasn't his fault that he got hopelessly "suppressed" by a less-numerous foe whose location and intentions were simply unknowable. The Schofield inquiry (hose conclusions were backed by Grant, Sherman, and Thomas) demonstrated that his excuses were bullshit and he was just an incompetent fuck who could have been beaten by a pack of cranky Cub Scouts. The fact that Pope tried to weasel out of his own blunders by throwing his staff under the bus simply reinforces the historical verdict that he was a serious contender for the worst general of all time.
I believe Porter was vindicated of sorts after the war.
Quote from: Kleves on January 07, 2012, 09:53:59 AM
Quote from: grumbler on January 07, 2012, 09:42:45 AM
The fact that Pope tried to weasel out of his own blunders by throwing his staff under the bus simply reinforces the historical verdict that he was a serious contender for the worst general of all time.
Wasn't one of McClellan's cronies - Franklin, I think - cashiered for disobeying Pope's orders during 2nd Bull Run?
I think you mean Fritz-John Porter
Quote from: 11B4V on January 07, 2012, 11:43:31 AM
I believe Porter was vindicated of sorts after the war.
Completely vindicated by the Schofield inquiry. Grant, Lee, Sherman, Longstreet, and Thomas all prominently supported this vindication, even though Pope was a darling of the Radical Republicans and still as prominent a political general as there was in the post-war army.
Porter's court-martial didn't rehabilitate Pope in the way Pope and his allies had desired (it was just too obvious that Pope never had a clue as to how to command troops or conduct operations), but it allowed the administration to avoid the embarrassment of actually rusticating him, and he was sent off to commit atrocities against the Sioux.
Quote from: Viking on January 07, 2012, 08:04:25 AM
U.S. Grant - was never Commander of the AoP, Meade was his army commander. Grant realized what was needed to end the war with victory and agreed with Lincoln. He promptly did that. However he was rightly criticized for his bloody advance through virginia.
Meh hard to defeat The Army of Northern Virginia without getting anybody hurt. Lee was not going to be strategically or tactically tricked, you were going to have to wear him down.
Anyway I think Pope certainly stands out. He and McDowell were the only ones to be routed. At least when McClellan ran away he did so because he was a coward and did so with proper military precision.
Did Pope ever command the AoP?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 09, 2012, 03:39:32 PM
Did Pope ever command the AoP?
I believe his army was, technically, the Army of Virginia; though it was made up of troops who had been/would be part of the Army of the Potomac.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 09, 2012, 03:39:32 PM
Did Pope ever command the AoP?
His army contained three corps from the AoP
Hmm . . . don't see how Pope can be attacked for his command for the "Army of the Potomac" for the same period of time that someone else is in command of a formation with the same name.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 09, 2012, 04:04:02 PM
Hmm . . . don't see how Pope can be attacked for his command for the "Army of the Potomac" for the same period of time that someone else is in command of a formation with the same name.
He can be because a wise man once said
Quote from: Kleves on January 06, 2012, 06:17:26 PM
Yes, I know that Grant and Pope didn't technically command the Army of the Potomac (did McDowell?). I included them anyway. Deal with it.
This thread needs a hijack.
Quote from: grumbler on January 07, 2012, 07:41:14 AM
John Pope was, by far, the worst general and person on the list, so by definition the worst commander on the list.
I thought about him, but went with Burnside instead. I kinda feel guilty about voting Burnside since he didn't really want the job but took it out of a sense of duty. But his inability to figure out how to cross rivers and his Grand Division bullshit stick out in my mind more than the other guys' failings.
McClellan arguably had the biggest blunders, but what bails him out in my mind is how he organized & trained the Army, making its later successes possible under Meade & Grant.
Quote from: PDH on January 09, 2012, 04:26:25 PM
This thread needs a hijack.
How about those Roundheads, eh? Eh?
Quote from: derspiess on January 09, 2012, 04:46:28 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 07, 2012, 07:41:14 AM
John Pope was, by far, the worst general and person on the list, so by definition the worst commander on the list.
I thought about him, but went with Burnside instead. I kinda feel guilty about voting Burnside since he didn't really want the job but took it out of a sense of duty. But his inability to figure out how to cross rivers and his Grand Division bullshit stick out in my mind more than the other guys' failings.
McClellan arguably had the biggest blunders, but what bails him out in my mind is how he organized & trained the Army, making its later successes possible under Meade & Grant.
Don't feel bad about naming Burnside - after all, he'd be the first to agree with you. :D
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 09, 2012, 04:04:02 PM
Hmm . . . don't see how Pope can be attacked for his command for the "Army of the Potomac" for the same period of time that someone else is in command of a formation with the same name.
Neither did Grant or McDowell technically. But I took it as worst Federal commander in the East. I mean excluding Ben Butler and his Army of the James or the various losers in the Shenandoah Campaigns.
Quote from: grumbler on January 09, 2012, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 09, 2012, 04:04:02 PM
Hmm . . . don't see how Pope can be attacked for his command for the "Army of the Potomac" for the same period of time that someone else is in command of a formation with the same name.
He can be because a wise man once said
Quote from: Kleves on January 06, 2012, 06:17:26 PM
Yes, I know that Grant and Pope didn't technically command the Army of the Potomac (did McDowell?). I included them anyway. Deal with it.
OK, but the point is not purely pedantic.
Part of Pope's problem was Mac playing sitzkrieg in the Peninsula with the actual AoP.
Quote from: Kleves on January 07, 2012, 09:49:39 AM
Quote from: Viking on January 07, 2012, 08:04:25 AM
McClellan's Army filled up the Crater. He built the Army of the Republic.
:hmm: Not a lot of black soldiers in McClellan's army.
The coloured brigade that was trained for the crater operation was replaced last minute by a regular brigade which ran into the crater rather than go around the edges like the black brigade trained for. Once the regulars were in the crater the blacks were sent in after. The black regiment was replaced for anti-racist reasons, the thought was that for such a dangerous operation Burnside and Grant might be charged with squandering their lives if the losses got too high.
So the soldiers of the AoP filled the Crater, the blacks joined them later.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 09, 2012, 06:27:26 PM
Quote from: grumbler on January 09, 2012, 04:23:47 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 09, 2012, 04:04:02 PM
Hmm . . . don't see how Pope can be attacked for his command for the "Army of the Potomac" for the same period of time that someone else is in command of a formation with the same name.
He can be because a wise man once said
Quote from: Kleves on January 06, 2012, 06:17:26 PM
Yes, I know that Grant and Pope didn't technically command the Army of the Potomac (did McDowell?). I included them anyway. Deal with it.
OK, but the point is not purely pedantic.
Part of Pope's problem was Mac playing sitzkrieg in the Peninsula with the actual AoP.
My jibe at Pope was slightly disengenous I'll agree. But, seriously. Pope has serious interpersonal skills when dealing with his "new" subordinates suggesting emphatically that the easterners were lilly livered losers who didn't know how to fight. His command style was not his greatest failing, his ability to set up his army in such a manner that Jackson was in his rear within one days surprise march is comparable to Hooker.
I just don't think it is fair to blame only Pope (who richly deserves much blame). Grant/Meade got rid of the McClellan loyal officers that Pope had issues with.
I think it says a lot of the AotP as an organisation that was constantly undermined by backbiting and rivalries in it's officer corps.
Can someone tell me what exactly is meant by McClellan building the AotP?
Quote from: grumbler on January 07, 2012, 12:30:11 PM
Quote from: 11B4V on January 07, 2012, 11:43:31 AM
I believe Porter was vindicated of sorts after the war.
Completely vindicated by the Schofield inquiry. Grant, Lee, Sherman, Longstreet, and Thomas all prominently supported this vindication, even though Pope was a darling of the Radical Republicans and still as prominent a political general as there was in the post-war army.
Porter's court-martial didn't rehabilitate Pope in the way Pope and his allies had desired (it was just too obvious that Pope never had a clue as to how to command troops or conduct operations), but it allowed the administration to avoid the embarrassment of actually rusticating him, and he was sent off to commit atrocities against the Sioux.
If I recall what I've read about 2nd Bull Run correctly, basically, Pope ordered Porter to attack. Porter, knowing that there were Confederate troops on his flank that could have counterattacked and potentially rolled up the whole Federal line had Porter advanced, and which Pope was unaware of, refused to attack. So technically, yeah, Pope was correct that Porter had disobeyed orders. But had Porter obeyed that order, the Union defeat would likely have been even worse, so Pope still doesn't come out looking to good.
Quote from: derspiess on January 09, 2012, 04:46:28 PM
McClellan arguably had the biggest blunders, but what bails him out in my mind is how he organized & trained the Army, making its later successes possible under Meade & Grant.
The man was arguably a borderline traitor.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 09, 2012, 06:57:40 PM
Can someone tell me what exactly is meant by McClellan building the AotP?
Realizing that there is more to building an army than giving a man a gun and a uniform and then doing something about it. Basically he was willing and able to spend the time he needed to train the men and allowing them to build up esprit de corps and faith in their tactics and skills. The job done by McClellan is most obviouslly seen in the difference between the performance of the army at 1st Bull Run and the army running regiment after regiment into the meatgrinder at Fredricksburg.
Quote from: dps on January 09, 2012, 07:37:03 PM
If I recall what I've read about 2nd Bull Run correctly, basically, Pope ordered Porter to attack. Porter, knowing that there were Confederate troops on his flank that could have counterattacked and potentially rolled up the whole Federal line had Porter advanced, and which Pope was unaware of, refused to attack. So technically, yeah, Pope was correct that Porter had disobeyed orders. But had Porter obeyed that order, the Union defeat would likely have been even worse, so Pope still doesn't come out looking to good.
Pope's orders to McDowell and Porter, which were pretty much the poster-child orders for obfuscation and mistatement of purpose, were really only clear on the point that Porter was not to move and attack if such an attack would be disadvantageous: "If any considerable advantages are to be gained by departing from this order, it will not be strictly carried out." Pope didn't understand his own orders, and thought they were orders to attack no matter what (or so he said at the court-martial). FWIW, McDowell (senior to Porter and present with him) was the one who decided not to carry it out.
Porter was a first-class twit, but he was also a first-class general. Porter was also the former, but not the latter.
And, yeah, McClellan was sabotaging Pope from the rear, but that's not what caused Pope to completely lose track of what the Confederates were doing.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 09, 2012, 06:57:40 PM
Can someone tell me what exactly is meant by McClellan building the AotP?
I take it you disagree with the notion but won't come out and say so, in classic Yi style?
Quote from: derspiess on January 09, 2012, 10:25:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 09, 2012, 06:57:40 PM
Can someone tell me what exactly is meant by McClellan building the AotP?
I take it you disagree with the notion but won't come out and say so, in classic Yi style?
It entirely possible that he just isn't an ACW guy, and doesn't know how amateur the Union army was before Mac professionalized it. It is the only post he has made in the thread, and was in response to at least a couple of claims of that sort about Mac.
Quote from: derspiess on January 09, 2012, 10:25:42 PM
I take it you disagree with the notion but won't come out and say so, in classic Yi style?
A reasonable inference, but off the mark in this case.
Quote from: grumbler on January 09, 2012, 11:14:24 PM
Quote from: derspiess on January 09, 2012, 10:25:42 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 09, 2012, 06:57:40 PM
Can someone tell me what exactly is meant by McClellan building the AotP?
I take it you disagree with the notion but won't come out and say so, in classic Yi style?
It entirely possible that he just isn't an ACW guy, and doesn't know how amateur the Union army was before Mac professionalized it. It is the only post he has made in the thread, and was in response to at least a couple of claims of that sort about Mac.
A general answer might be; Training, organizing, staffing, command structure...etc
Anywho, a good staff officer doesnt necessarily make a good commander..nor vice versa.
Quote from: Viking on January 09, 2012, 09:34:12 PM
The job done by McClellan is most obviouslly seen in the difference between the performance of the army at 1st Bull Run and the army running regiment after regiment into the meatgrinder at Fredricksburg.
Heh. There were quite a few meatgrinders between First Bull Run and Fredricksburg.