Worst Commander of the Army of the Potomac?

[grumbler]

Hmm . . . don't see how Pope can be attacked for his command for the "Army of the Potomac" for the same period of time that someone else is in command of a formation with the same name.

He can be because a wise man once said

Yes, I know that Grant and Pope didn't technically command the Army of the Potomac (did McDowell?). I included them anyway. Deal with it.

[PDH]

This thread needs a hijack.

[derspiess]

John Pope was, by far, the worst general and person on the list, so by definition the worst commander on the list.

I thought about him, but went with Burnside instead.  I kinda feel guilty about voting Burnside since he didn't really want the job but took it out of a sense of duty.  But his inability to figure out how to cross rivers and his Grand Division bullshit stick out in my mind more than the other guys' failings.

McClellan arguably had the biggest blunders, but what bails him out in my mind is how he organized & trained the Army, making its later successes possible under Meade & Grant.

[Malthus]

This thread needs a hijack.

How about those Roundheads, eh? Eh?

[Malthus]

John Pope was, by far, the worst general and person on the list, so by definition the worst commander on the list.

I thought about him, but went with Burnside instead.  I kinda feel guilty about voting Burnside since he didn't really want the job but took it out of a sense of duty.  But his inability to figure out how to cross rivers and his Grand Division bullshit stick out in my mind more than the other guys' failings.

McClellan arguably had the biggest blunders, but what bails him out in my mind is how he organized & trained the Army, making its later successes possible under Meade & Grant.

Don't feel bad about naming Burnside - after all, he'd be the first to agree with you. 

[Valmy]

Hmm . . . don't see how Pope can be attacked for his command for the "Army of the Potomac" for the same period of time that someone else is in command of a formation with the same name.

Neither did Grant or McDowell technically.  But I took it as worst Federal commander in the East.  I mean excluding Ben Butler and his Army of the James or the various losers in the Shenandoah Campaigns.

[The Minsky Moment]

Hmm . . . don't see how Pope can be attacked for his command for the "Army of the Potomac" for the same period of time that someone else is in command of a formation with the same name.

He can be because a wise man once said

Yes, I know that Grant and Pope didn't technically command the Army of the Potomac (did McDowell?). I included them anyway. Deal with it.

OK, but the point is not purely pedantic.
Part of Pope's problem was Mac playing sitzkrieg in the Peninsula with the actual AoP.

[Viking]

McClellan's Army filled up the Crater. He built the Army of the Republic.

Not a lot of black soldiers in McClellan's army.

The coloured brigade that was trained for the crater operation was replaced last minute by a regular brigade which ran into the crater rather than go around the edges like the black brigade trained for. Once the regulars were in the crater the blacks were sent in after. The black regiment was replaced for anti-racist reasons, the thought was that for such a dangerous operation Burnside and Grant might be charged with squandering their lives if the losses got too high.

So the soldiers of the AoP filled the Crater, the blacks joined them later.

[Viking]

Hmm . . . don't see how Pope can be attacked for his command for the "Army of the Potomac" for the same period of time that someone else is in command of a formation with the same name.

He can be because a wise man once said

Yes, I know that Grant and Pope didn't technically command the Army of the Potomac (did McDowell?). I included them anyway. Deal with it.

OK, but the point is not purely pedantic.
Part of Pope's problem was Mac playing sitzkrieg in the Peninsula with the actual AoP.

My jibe at Pope was slightly disengenous I'll agree. But, seriously. Pope has serious interpersonal skills when dealing with his "new" subordinates suggesting emphatically that the easterners were lilly livered losers who didn't know how to fight. His command style was not his greatest failing, his ability to set up his army in such a manner that Jackson was in his rear within one days surprise march is comparable to Hooker.

I just don't think it is fair to blame only Pope (who richly deserves much blame). Grant/Meade got rid of the McClellan loyal officers that Pope had issues with.

[Razgovory]

I think it says a lot of the AotP as an organisation that was constantly undermined by backbiting and rivalries in it's officer corps.

[Admiral Yi]

Can someone tell me what exactly is meant by McClellan building the AotP?

[dps]

I believe Porter was vindicated of  sorts after the war.

Completely vindicated by the Schofield inquiry.  Grant, Lee, Sherman, Longstreet, and Thomas all prominently supported this vindication, even though Pope was a darling of the Radical Republicans and still as prominent a political general as there was in the post-war army.

Porter's court-martial didn't rehabilitate Pope in the way Pope and his allies had desired (it was just too obvious that Pope never had a clue as to how to command troops or conduct operations), but it allowed the administration to avoid the embarrassment of actually rusticating him, and he was sent off to commit atrocities against the Sioux.

If I recall what I've read about 2nd Bull Run correctly, basically, Pope ordered Porter to attack.  Porter, knowing that there were Confederate troops on his flank that could have counterattacked and potentially rolled up the whole Federal line had Porter advanced, and which Pope was unaware of, refused to attack.  So technically, yeah, Pope was correct that Porter had disobeyed orders.  But had Porter obeyed that order, the Union defeat would likely have been even worse, so Pope still doesn't come out looking to good.

[CountDeMoney]

McClellan arguably had the biggest blunders, but what bails him out in my mind is how he organized & trained the Army, making its later successes possible under Meade & Grant.

The man was arguably a borderline traitor.

[Viking]

Can someone tell me what exactly is meant by McClellan building the AotP?

Realizing that there is more to building an army than giving a man a gun and a uniform and then doing something about it. Basically he was willing and able to spend the time he needed to train the men and allowing them to build up esprit de corps and faith in their tactics and skills. The job done by McClellan is most obviouslly seen in the difference between the performance of the army at 1st Bull Run and the army running regiment after regiment into the meatgrinder at Fredricksburg.

[grumbler]

If I recall what I've read about 2nd Bull Run correctly, basically, Pope ordered Porter to attack.  Porter, knowing that there were Confederate troops on his flank that could have counterattacked and potentially rolled up the whole Federal line had Porter advanced, and which Pope was unaware of, refused to attack.  So technically, yeah, Pope was correct that Porter had disobeyed orders.  But had Porter obeyed that order, the Union defeat would likely have been even worse, so Pope still doesn't come out looking to good.

Pope's orders to McDowell and Porter, which were pretty much the poster-child orders for obfuscation and mistatement of purpose, were really only clear on the point that Porter was not to move and attack if such an attack would be disadvantageous: "If any considerable advantages are to be gained by departing from this order, it will not be strictly carried out."  Pope didn't understand his own orders, and thought they were orders to attack no matter what (or so he said at the court-martial).  FWIW, McDowell (senior to Porter and present with him) was the one who decided not to carry it out.

Porter was a first-class twit, but he was also a first-class general.  Porter was also the former, but not the latter.

And, yeah, McClellan was sabotaging Pope from the rear, but that's not what caused Pope to completely lose track of what the Confederates were doing.