I mentioned this marvelous little game in the boardgame thread.
It covers the entire Eastern Front of WW2 with about 40 counters and a deck of cards, and it does a great job at it, especially in converting the whole campaign into a balanced game.
Berkut plays the evil nazis bent on subduing the Soviet workers paradise, defended by the one true champion of Communism, me.
This is the starting situation:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi42.tinypic.com%2Fnwk02o.jpg&hash=bd8e88d49e1bf8110d9ab18fae4e63be18bcf1de)
In order to understand the ensuing cataclysm better, you must know, that in my opinion this game is about two things: supply, and zones of control
The basic way to get supply is to be in 4 uninterrupted hexes of a city controller by you, which in turn can traces a route of unlimited length to your edge of the board. These paths can only be sought from either the western (Axis) ro Eastern (Soviet) 3 hexes adjacent to the unit or city.
Berkut has 11 turns (until start of 1943) to close off the campaign on his terms. If he fails to achieve an auto-victory by that time, Initiative changes to me, and it will be him who will try to stop me from earning enough VPs.
Going back to the starting situation, the only real question regarding the Axis opening move is the Soviet Army Group West. That's the only one the Germans can completely cut off from supplies with their opening move. It is no problem for them to destroy it, or the Northwest and Southwest AGs, but if the Germans encircle it and stop, and the Soviets do not go overboard to try and save it, it surrenders, which makes it twice as expensive to rebuild, and scores a potentially important VP for the Axis.
The disadvantage normally is that if the Axis destroy it in combat instead, their panzers can reach Minsk via advance, and start their turn from there.
Berkut went with the encircling option. He also destroyed the SW and NW Army Groups, and using one of the Blitz markers he got (these are column shifter bonuses received at some turn. The Soviets have the Shock version of it), he dislodged AG South from the Romanian border, which I retreated to Odessa. Easily encircible there, sure, but it receives supply from the Black Sea.
Now, during my turn, I drew 4 cards, burned two to rebuild the two lost units, put the Reserve unit on trains, and formed a pretty standard delaying line, making sure that no hex remains without my ZOC in the line. It ran from Odessa through just east of Kiev (still mine), to just east of Minsk (still mine) and that lake east of Riga (German already)
It was a thing of beauty, except that Berkut had a card (Surprise Attack) which allowed him to move a stack and put a Counterblow marker on it.
Counterblows are attacks which you are forced to make in your turn, triggered by your opponent by discarding cards or playing events. Your opponent forgoes defensive terrain advantages with it, in the hopes of distributing your otherwise concentrated attack in neighboring hexes, or, as in this case, to trigger a Counter Attack of his own.
So, the 3rd Panzer and the 9th Army marched into Minsk and had my unit east of it attack them. And since this Counterblow which was forced on my troops caused me to attack on worse than 1:3 odds, it automatically became a German counterattack.
There I was, with a very real danger of my defensive line being broken, immediately before the Germans would move again.
So, I played Conflicting Hitler Directives to cancel Berkut's Surprise Attack. Russia saved!
Or not. Berk had Stalin's Interference, which in turn cancelled my event. Thanks, Stalin!
The counterattack proceeded, but my unit managed to retreat, even with Berkut playing Expert Leaders to influence the result.
At the end of the turn, I completed my delay-line by de-embarking the Reserve unit, and my AG West surrendered to nazi agressors.
TURN 2 - JULY-AUGUST 1941
As of this moment, we are through with Axis movements and declarations of voluntary attacks (the targeting marks on the map below). I also triggered a Counterblow (red arrows marker):
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi39.tinypic.com%2F9v9tsj.jpg&hash=dc02fefb4679010c57b1ce456bb9d3ce4788241d)
Nice with a game that isn't crazy huge.
:nerd:
Map sucks.
Being that there's no popcorn eating emo (MODS!). I am watch this with intrest.
TURN 2 CONTINUED
There was no question the Soviets would be owned this turn, the only question was, how much? I had one card to affect the outcomes, for the rest, it was up to Berkut's positioning, and luck.
I chose to intervene on the northern front. I needed a breath there to move back the Leningrad defense for to the city, since I needed them to block the northern edge before this.
So, when the Germans attacked the Reserve Front guarding the south-western approach to the great city, I played NKVD. Which meant, that in place of normal combat resolution, each side would roll a dice, the loser being the one rolling smaller, and losing a step. Retreat, and more importantly, advance, was to be cancelled. One exception: if both rolled the same number, a normal combat resolution would commence.
And of course Berk rolled double 4s, and with his earlier play of Guderian for this combat, the result was a retreat.
But! He did not advance in a way to cut off the movement path of the Lengingrad defense force. Which also means that I could plan to use my single unit rail capacity to evacuate Odessa (considered to be a sea evacuation, and I would had needed it to save the Leningrad unit. That's crucial, since those local defense force units can be, from my 3rd turn, converted into fortress units). You can see the very discouraging situation after the German turn here:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi44.tinypic.com%2F2h3zmzo.jpg&hash=ea39154bcfff2436611be3be27d440097b8e4604)
Bad, right? Well, yes and no. I was up to draw 4 cards, I had two shattered units (these come back on the map free, albeit unable to attack unless you burn a card to reorganize them), two destroyed (costs one card discard to bring back), and one surrendered (costs two cards). Plus two new fresh units.
I drew my 4 cards, burned two on getting the destroyed ones back, then placed these total of 6 units I could (2 shaken, 2 replaced destroyed, 2 reinforcements). I placed and then moved these to recreate my delaying line, and de-embarked South Front in the samps of the Crimea. I may end up regretting not putting them to bolser the defense of the steppes, but I had to make a call.
There was no combat or German card interference, so this is how end of Turn 2 looks (this is where we are at now):
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi44.tinypic.com%2F21loe3r.jpg&hash=29140e6a3589e51057ff8e31bb803e810a601dd2)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi195.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz133%2Fsbr32%2Fsmilies%2Fpopcorn.gif&hash=63a18d3ea0e3e85dabd3e05debdd669d27616884)
I will try to not disclose my plans, but since I am trying to explain general strategy in this post, Berkut pls skip this post :P
Turn 2 concludes the guaranteed good weather turns at start. I may still get unlucky and have Berk draw a weather changer event, turning the coming mud turn into clear weather, which could have very severe reprecussions on my steppe frontline. But a major German reorg toward there would lift the currently mounting pressure on Leningrad and Moscow, so I could have some spare resources to counter a long summer.
But if the weather doesn't change, we will be looking at a roughly historical setup: the Germans would be at the gates of Moscow and Leningrad, but with bad chances of finishing the conquests, especially with Leningrad. Far from impossible in case of Moscow though.
Turn 4 wil be winter, with ability to attack soviets reduced. Turn 5 (start of '42) will be even tougher winter, a one-time suckage for Germans, rendering them almost incapable of attacking Soviets, unless they muster a very superior force (-2 column shift for attacking the Russkies).
In other words, barring any surprises, Turn 3 should still be a turn full of defeats for the Soviets, but also a noticable slowdown of the German advance. Turn 4 will be a pivotal one, the Germans will still have the strength to potentially push for an auto-victory, but the Soviets will also start to grow some teeth.
But the cards can carry nasty surprises, especially if you are lucky and smart to combo their effects. First auto-victory check will be at the very start of Turn 3 and Berk is short with 3VPs (has 17, need 20), but the next one will be on start of Turn 6, and that IS within his possible reach if he manages to outmaneuver me.
I better see some white-on-black SS counters by 1943.
Quote from: sbr on December 30, 2011, 11:37:48 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi195.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fz133%2Fsbr32%2Fsmilies%2Fpopcorn.gif&hash=63a18d3ea0e3e85dabd3e05debdd669d27616884)
Hey, where you get that? :grr:
TURN 3, SEPTEMBER-OCTOBER 1941
The invading armies closed off the distance again and went on the attack, here is the situation before German attacks were rolled:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi39.tinypic.com%2F25psgnc.jpg&hash=139806cb51ffba85885ee77e783d233267c4f0be)
So as you see, they struggled through the autumn mud, and launched an attack toward Moscow, as well as trying to take Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk.
Little did they know, that the "Not a step back!" order was issued and echoed throughout the eastern front. With their backs to the wall (well, more like to their capital and a vast open steppe), Soviet soldiers made a desperate stand. (I played the relevant event, which made all "defender retreats" combat result be combined to an "exchange" one - both sides lose a step, no retreat and advance).
In the ensuing bloody fights, the Russian units defending west of Moscow, and defending Kharkov got eliminated, but the German 16th and 6th Armies also suffered considerable losses. The failed Romanian-German attack on Dnepropetrovsk resulted in a counterblow, which means the Soviets have to perform an attack on the German 11th army, or retreat to get free of that obligation.
My turn started out very badly: Berkut played "Stalin Orders Attack" on me: I was to perform at least 3 voluntary attacks this turn, or lose a VP. Well, that VP may cost me the game at the victory check on Turn 6, but so could 3 attacks against superior German forces. So I decided to ignore Stalin's orders, then blame my staff and have some of the scribes be sent to the gulag.
On the positive side of things, I had the Sevastopol and Moscow defense forces arriving as reinforcements, and I also received a Cadre unit. You can place these down in the place of destroyed units, and later replace them in turn with -guess what- replacement units.
Also, 4 valuable cards were discarded to recover the two eliminated and one surrendered unit (this one is back from the Turn 1 surrender).
Some pretty nice events were discarded, but these were decisive moments.
Below is the situation at the end of my Movement phase, prior to Berkut placing counterblows. A unit of mine, the South Front which was previously north of Sevastopol, was in the railroad pool, ready to be placed where it is needed at the end of this turn.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi42.tinypic.com%2F2uswzvc.jpg&hash=446da4454ea78f9dd8331263dff86e557dec0c06)
/popcorn
Thanks for such a clear AAR, Tamas. :thumbsup:
I know nothing about wargames, but this is pretty cool :)
TURN 3 CONTINUED
Two counterblows developed near Moscow. The Kalinin front jumped into attacking superior enemy forces West-South West of Kalinin (the unit and the city), and with big luck managed to disengage without serious losses.
The Southwest Front, pushed into a desperate stand just west of Moscow, triggered a counterattack against their ill-fated counterblow attack, which yielded an Exchange result, eliminating the soviet unit (thereby exposing a weak Moscow garrison) and causing serious casualities to 2nd Panzer.
The 3rd triggered counterblow was out of almost-surrounded Kharkov, which also presented a counter-attack possibility for the Germans, but they did not use it. Clearly their plan was to trap that unit in the city.
All that remained after these was to detrain my South Front unit. I had two basic choices: beef up the southern defences, making a major German breakthrough there during this winter unlikely, but offering a very decent chance at them capturing Moscow, or, send the unit to Tula, offering better odds for Moscow with a Counterblow on it next turn, but risk a major rout in the steppes, due to the very exposed flanks of my defenders in Kharkov and Dnepropetrovsk.
Without being convinced that it was the best call, I decided to go with a de-training in Tula. Moscow must stand!
Diring the German turn, I drew the Fickle Weather card, which had two effects:
1. Rather than Snow this turn, it will be Mud.
2. More importantly, since that means there will NOT be a second turn of snow, the next turn will NOT be Long Winter!
I then played another card that let me place a replacement step (normally not allowed for the German in 1941) to bring 2nd Panzer back to full strength, and yet another (Industrial Relocation) to force Tamas to randomly discard 1 card. Since he only had 1 card, that meant I could attack without concern of a Counterblow.
This allowed 2nd Panzer and the German 4th Army to attack the weak Moscow garrison. They destroyed it, and took Moscow.
This puts me just 1 VP away from AV...
Moscow: did not stand.
Berk, I will have to check your second point, I didn't know that, major suckage if that's the case :yuk:
But your next AV counter is 23 for Turn 6, and you are at 18 now due to the Pearl Harbor event.
More to follow :P
This optimal string of German cards, with the weather change especially, made my situation almost impossible.
While Moscow was conquered, the Romanians maneuvered to allow themselves an encircling move on Dnepropetrovsk next turn. There was still time to escape that, but leaving that city gave free way for the Germans to encircle Kharkov.
So, I gave up both cities. I also had to remove myself from Tula, next to Moscow. In other words, I am forced to put Berkut an inch from Turn 6 autovictory. Crazy as that may seem, this is the only way to give myself a chance: making a unit of my surrender gives a VP to the Germans. Not an option.
I did amass my reinforcements for a desparate attack on Moscow - I have near zero chance for success (I can roll a 6 I guess), but even a loss-exchange would be okay, and the odds are still far better than they'll be next turn when/if Berkut garrisons it with two units.
I also replaced a lost unit, using it as a screen for the Crimea.
Here is the map before Berkut's Counterblow declarations:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi39.tinypic.com%2Fxepwrl.jpg&hash=7c77759f5e096de0e8900cd77da16d5d96632566)
Holy shit, Tamas. All this time I figured your own inability to deal with the Berkutkrieg would be your downfall, but turns out Mother Nature took a big, no-so-wet shit right on you.
Major bummer. The Boss just had you and your family shot.
:face:
Initial reports from the front indicate that the haphazard defensive line of the Germans in the Russian capital has been overrun by the fanatical Russian attackers!
We are waiting for confirmation.
This is the time I regret we are not using an outside diceroller because it is just too awesome to believe, but this is what happened. As mentioned above, using one of my shock markers for the turn, I launched a desperate attack on Moscow. I could only come up with 3:2 odds but this was my only chance to cause losses to the Germans there before it gets superfortified.
And I rolled a 6, the only way to dislodged them. :D
But, there is a "have a dice rerolled" card for each side, not to mention a couple of other cards to nullify this. Waiting for Berkut to wake up.
We should have used ACTS for dice rolling!
Going to sleep now...
Quote from: CountDeMoney on January 01, 2012, 04:22:03 PM
Holy shit, Tamas. All this time I figured your own inability to deal with the Berkutkrieg would be your downfall, but turns out Mother Nature took a big, no-so-wet shit right on you.
Major bummer. The Boss just had you and your family shot.
The Boss didn't leave Moscow. The Boss is probably dead, captured or MIA. I'm not sure who was suppose to run the Soviet Union if Stalin died in Moscow.
Quote from: Berkut on January 02, 2012, 04:13:25 AM
We should have used ACTS for dice rolling!
Going to sleep now...
you still can't complain about your luck :P
TURN 5 JANUARY-FEBRUARY 1942
Stalin lives, no matter who says what!
The re-capture of Moscow has given me back my full card draw capability, and took a VP from Berkut, but just like it was not total defeat to lose it, it is pretty far from victory to regain it.
As winter FINALLY set in, the Germans moved in to the abandoned cities of Tula, Dnepropetrovsk and Kharkov, pushing their VP to 20, 3 from the limit they needed until the start of next turn, but since this is their first Russian winter, they received an extra harsh penalty in attacking Soviet units. So they did not start an offensive, and I was wary on triggering counterblows, altough there were some tempting possibilities. But I had just one card, and I meant to keep it.
When my turn came, I finally upgraded the Leningrad garrison into a fort, and restored the Moscow garrison - in Stalino.
Why? Because I don't have the luxury of parking that by-default-very-weak unit in Moscow for a full turn so I could fortify it. Tons of Germans are still parked in front of Moscow and I have no doubt they plan to resume their offensive on the city come spring thaw next turn.
I needed the unit in Stalino to cover the flanks of an attempted counteroffensive on the Steppes, south-west of Kharkov.
Using the shock of winter, I also scheduled an offensive to retake Tula, and a blow out of the Crimean peninsula against the Romanian army guarding the German flank there.
My two main motivations for these are the shock markers I have, and the extreme winter penalty which can protect me if my Russian peasants screw it up and the Germans roll on to counterattack.
This is the map before Berkut placing counterblows:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2Fe7o5rl.jpg&hash=290c4527f7e8e8059c68acfdb71fcbdb6fe673c5)
Crush the Bolshivik(however you spell it :huh:) swine Berkut.
I hace crushed them time and again, yet no matter how hard I kick the door in, the structure has yet to fall down...
The attack SW of Kharkov stopped without any effect, the attack against the Romanians exchanged losses, but Tula, next to Moscow, has been liberated!
Now all eyes turn to Germany again. Still there will be mud, so their big, final push for autovictory cannot start in earnest. But the winter will be over, so their strength will be back.
The German goals for this turn are simply to clear away the riff-raff from around Moscow in preparation for our summer offensive.
Mission largely accomplished, although we took some losses that were not at all expected.
Quote from: Berkut on January 02, 2012, 11:58:50 AM
I hace crushed them time and again, yet no matter how hard I kick the door in, the structure has yet to fall down...
:lol:
That's just what Hitler thought.
Soviet high command seems to have lost the game file. So no updates today.
Quote from: Berkut on January 03, 2012, 10:05:00 AM
Soviet high command seems to have lost the game file. So no updates today.
I'll resend the replay to you in an hour or so :P
Thinking this game might be suitable for me and a friend who doesn't like the complex games much and like the idea of being able to finish the game in one afternoon I looked up the game on BGG and looked at the CRT. I was a bit shocked.
First of all for all odds from 3:2 to 4:1 The attacker has the exact same probability of taking a loss (the EXchange result) 1/6. While the "-" is probably not as cool as the DR (retreat) or DS (shattered) the only difference is the taking of the hex or not. It seems that in every case where at least 3-2 odds can be achieved and there is no prospect of encirclment (which turns the DRs and DSs into kill if I understand it correctly).
It seems that going for the 5-1 should be done if possible, but, if it can't be reached going for as many 3-2 attacks as possible seems the sensible thing to do since you might just be getting yourself 3-5 1/3 chances to crack the front rather than 1 5/6 chance to crack the front.
Is that a correct understanding of the game?
5:1 is very hard for the Germans to achieve after the initial attacks though. MOst SOviet units are 3 or 4, and getting enough Germans together for a 5:1 is not easy - you will have to thin out elsewhere quite a bit.
A CB result is (for the Germans) usually favorable - it means the Soviets will likely have to pull back during their turn, since they generally cannot make an effective attack.
So the 3:2 column has 3/6 "favorable" results, 2/6 that will force a retreat of some kind.
Each colum up from that gives you another 1/6 chance of forcing a retreat. I would not agree that you want to make as many attacks as possible - that is just going to result in more flipped Germans. And that is bad. I don't think you can really go with a "Attack everywhere, see what happens, exploit" kind of strategy most of the time, because you don't have the density needed to exploit wherever you want. The game forces the German to come up with a plan.
Of course, I've played once, so what the hell do I really know?
When do units reflip? What results cause the attackers to flip?
With regards to the 3-2s, I was thinking they should be done when the alternative was to occupy sections of the line.
Units can flip during the replacements phase at the start of each turn.
The Soviets at the start don't actually have any units with two steps. The Germans have to discard 2 cards for each unit they want to flip though, and cannot take any replacements at all until turn 5.
The only results that cause the attacker to flip are EX, potentially CA.
So, between 3-2 and 4-1 the chances of flipping are identical for the attacker. The only difference between 3-2 and 4-1 is that with the identical chance of failure there is an increasing chance of success.
Whatever, this one seems like fun. /subscribe
TURN 6 MARCH-APRIL 1942
Not much to tell about this turn except that it was a carnage around Moscow. The initial German offensive North- and Sout-West of the city took Tula once again and eliminated the northern defensive flank of the capital but luckily the Germans couldnt advance there. I had enough units (one new arriving, two replaced) to plug in the holes.
I initially wanted to use my Manpower Reserves card to put two eliminated units in my rail pool but Berkut cancelled that again via Stalin's idiocy. So I had a total of two rebuilt normally (instead of one rebuilt, two special-evented). One was used to cover up the Moscow holes, the other to cover the Crimean flank.
Also, Turn 6 is an important milestone: my units start to gain experience. Each turn I can flip one over to it's improve side. While they remain one-step units until something like 1944, the improved units are a much better mach for their German enemies. First choice for this was sadly obvious: the Volkhov Front became the 3rd Baltic one.
During my turn, Berkut burned 3 cards to have me launch a Counterblow next to Moscow, and have the result rerolled twice, only to realize that he would have to Counterattack both my attackers (I attacked the CB marker on his units with both adjacen units -3rd Baltic in Moscow, and Soutwest which was north of it).
To finish up the turn, I used my Stavka card to claim the top of the discards which was NKVD (hoping to help me defend in the coming german summer offensive), and de-railed the previously rail-moved Moscow garrison just east of Moscow. This was done to discourage an enveloping movement around the capital. Well, at least making sure that it does not succeed in a sungle turn.
Next turn, summer arrives, the steppes open up for rapid German advances. The Soviet agenda is easy: survive until winter sets in.
Edit: here is the end of Turn 6:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.tinypic.com%2F140c2o2.jpg&hash=fc58b9317533fa9fc7ef96458d9518e673c42e49)
The Germans have decided to put it all in for an effort to take Moscow.
Our first campaign results in massive Soviet casualties, but the NKVD manage to freeze any advance, leaving Moscow empty, but with the Soviet tun coming, sure to be back to a 7 strength defense...
TURN 7 MAY-JUNE 1942
Just before resolving the German attacks:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2F1sche1.jpg&hash=16c060b168f43025a471b482174b8ac13b94fe95)
The big call for this turn of course was: will Berkut reposition to the steppes to try and recreate Blau? Or keep up the siege of Moscow?
You can see the answer above. He did a lot of repositioning, so a HUGE German force is facing Moscow and its flanks. He also had a stab at getting closer to Leningrad. I intended to counter that, by placing a counterblow marker on my Reserve Front there (the red marker thingie with the arrows). I forfeited the excellent defensive bonuses (mountain behind a river) since a CB is basically the defenders starting movements to provoke a response, but it forced the German 4th Panzer to attack it.
That particular combat ended in an exchange result - not really good, since the pressure there is enormous, I could afford a retreat. A loss? Less so. But this had the other northern German unit, the 2nd Army left alone, attacking through a river into a forest, and had a counter-attack result, but I had no appetite for a CA with awful odds.
The attack south of Moscow was against my Central front with two infantry armies, and I used my NKVD card to have a random result which did not favor me: my unit was eliminated, but at least the Germans couldnt advance.
The huge assault on Moscow itself was in turn repelled by my play of Russian Tenacity, which makes a German attack on the city an automatic exchange result.
So, the German half of Turn 7 was a standstill, but a very, very costly one for the Soviets. I was out of cards, and 3 units short
TURN 7 CONTINUED
In my turn, I received two new units and rebuilt 3, so had enough to plug in once again the Moscow holes.
And to cover two other issues:
-the German south if you look at it, was basically a Romanian and a Hungarian army holding the entirety of Ukraine
-Voronezh is a key supply source for both sides and if breached, allows the quick encicrlement of both the northern and southern halfs of the front. It was held by a single unit of mine, with a German unit adjacent, ie. prone to counterblow the city.
For the latter, I place one of the new units (Voronezh Front, hehe) to Saratov, so I can move it in a position where it would ZOC-cover the southern route of possible German advance out of Voronezh. Except that I forgot to move it before sending the file to Berkut for the combat phase.
To his credit, he let me move it afterwards, which was to basically stop him from winning next turn if he manages to counter-attack Voronezh now.
And he had every chance, since he used a cardplay to move a second infantry army next to the city, to the hex of his unit already there, and put a Counterblow marker on it. He also triggered a counterblow south-west of Leningrad.
As for the thing with the Ukraine, I just couldn't resist: for my experience-gaining upgrade, I flipped my recent Crimean Front unit to it's Shock Army side, put my other new unit, the mechanized (albeit weak) Caucasus Front to Rostov, and moved both up next to Dnepropetrovsk, and ordered an attack.
The Shock army compensated for some of the disadvantages of attacking through a river into a city, and the combined Soviet strength was at the end 3:1 to the Romanians. Berkut played a card which made the result a defender's retreat automatically. Dnepropetrovsk was free!
At Voronezh, my forced counterblow attack ended in a German counter-attack, predictibly, but a roll of 1 made that stop with no effect. I do expect the city to fall next turn, however. We shall see.
The counterblow near Leningrad was even luckier for me, ending in a no effect result.
So effectively, Turn 7 ended up to be trench warfare. A great German effort to force a decision at the two capitals was largely stopped, or rather, delayed, by great Soviet sacrifices in men and resources.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi40.tinypic.com%2F2hcosiu.jpg&hash=26306ebc9d25c5f7e9868a46ced4f511bf7e2ec6)
TURN 8 jULY-AUGUST 1942
Major German breakthrough between Voronezh and Moscow! The defenders of Voronezh were cut off from supply, and German play of Kesslerschlacht, or something very similar, made them surrender before I could rescue them.
Beside that there were more pointless massacres around Moscow.
The Soviets were once again forced on the retreat, setting up a defensive perimeter. It got all much more interesting in:
TURN 9 SEPTEMBER-OCTOBER 1942
Still clear weather so problems problems problems. The Germans made a grand and sweeping relocation of their forces, unleashing on the south steppes with great prejudice. My Ukrainian forces are in grave danger, but the pressure is noticibly off Moscow. Observer, situation just before German attacks:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi40.tinypic.com%2F160ag50.jpg&hash=08afd957c525e49805f2928a62ee1572f8567afd)
Key points here:
1. If I can win the attack on the unit just to the east of Donnets, I can drive at Stalingrad, and force him to pull back from the Don as well. 3:1 attack, so should work most of the time!
2. If I can wun the battle at Stalino, I can cut off his shock and mech armies that he has over-extended chasing Romanians! And I have the cards to make it happen!
3. Taking Leningrad would be good as well, and I have the siege artillery card, so this is pretty good odds as well!
Shaping up to be a great turn.
Right up until the part where dice start rolling... :bleeding:
Quote from: Berkut on January 04, 2012, 11:28:33 AM
Key points here:
1. If I can win the attack on the unit just to the east of Donnets, I can drive at Stalingrad, and force him to pull back from the Don as well. 3:1 attack, so should work most of the time!
2. If I can wun the battle at Stalino, I can cut off his shock and mech armies that he has over-extended chasing Romanians! And I have the cards to make it happen!
3. Taking Leningrad would be good as well, and I have the siege artillery card, so this is pretty good odds as well!
Shaping up to be a great turn.
Right up until the part where dice start rolling... :bleeding:
You couldn't have done point 2 unless you had the "advance an extra hex" card in your hand. :hmm:
But luckily, not only Timoshenko rallied a bold counterattack, it actually succeeded!
I did lose Leningrad though. Huge blow, it will be a major pain in the ass to conquer it back.
It is rumored that led by the freshly formed 5th Guard Tanks and the 1st Byelorussian Shock Army, a major Soviet offensive has been set in motion on both flanks of the besiegers of Moscow.
Will the Germans stop it in it's track? Will it succeed? Will it expose the Soviets for a German counterattack? Stay tuned.
WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENED?!!!! :ultra:
Berkut had the NERVES to play Panzerblitz after my movement, sent the 1st and 3rd Panzer corps next to my unit defending the road to Stalingrad, put a counterblow marker on it which due to horrible odds auto-converted to a counter-attack which I lost with my unit shattered ie. off from the map for a turn, so right now 1st Panzer is just next to Stalingrad, to where I railed a shock army from the Ukraine at the last moment.
That Panzer will be OOS next turn but attack is not penalized by not having access to munition and stuff, so he will have the time for an all-or-nothing attack, and since he has two objectives, Leningrad and Moscow, he wins the game if he gets Stalingrad as well.
Moscow you say? Moscow was Russian and heavily fortified! Well yes. Until my offensive kicked off, attacking his units north and south of the two-units stack facing Moscow. Predictably he put a counterblow marker on that stack, but it was ok, I expected so much. I attacked it with my Shock Army there, and the improved infantry in Moscow itself. Then came Herr Manstein and backhand blowed my ass right out of the city! :ultra:
I did capture Tula, woo-hoo-fuckily-doo!
Well done, Berk! You haven't won yet, but you are one battle away from it.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.tinypic.com%2F20usto4.jpg&hash=789d9c11547d2c811ad994a1e80093e8fe3101fb)
However, the snows have set in, and poor 2nd Panzer is low on fuel and ammunition. Their odds of taking Stalingrad are poor.
So they have pulled back, noting that to take Stalingrad, one really does need Rostov.
So 3rd Panzer and 2nd Panzer, along with some help from our allies, have cut Roston and Stalino OOS. And there seems to be a lack of Soviet units around that can help them here in the snow...
TURN 10 NOVEMBER-DECEMBER 1942
The pocket around Stalino wasn't perfect, so the unit there could flee to the entrance to Crimea, it's supply restored by the unit defending the Crimea linking up with it. The unit in Rostov was set to make a desperate attempt to break up, as a coordinated rescue effort was decided to be too risky at exposing Stalingrad to any German trickery.
The existence of any tricky cards in the German hand was also a question regarding Moscow - either there was a surprise there, or the Moscow garrison was fubared, as only a miracle result could save it from being cut off, as the remnant cadre unit defending one of it's flanks came under heavy Soviet attack.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi42.tinypic.com%2Fejx8hu.jpg&hash=bba29a7c8612fefbd922e60607fdd88221769f42)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.politics.be%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Ficon_stalin.gif&hash=079b294a22fbb09ffe202027db652955a31b8862)
Oh crap, I forgot to move the minor allies when I re-did my move file. Well, that is probably a game losing mistake.
Quote from: Berkut on January 05, 2012, 08:26:58 AM
Oh crap, I forgot to move the minor allies when I re-did my move file. Well, that is probably a game losing mistake.
You didn't move the Romanians next to Odeassa, the rest moved according to the replay
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 08:46:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 05, 2012, 08:26:58 AM
Oh crap, I forgot to move the minor allies when I re-did my move file. Well, that is probably a game losing mistake.
You didn't move the Romanians next to Odeassa, the rest moved according to the replay
WEll duh, is it the Romanians next to Odessa who moved to block the escape of the unit in question.
Quote from: Berkut on January 05, 2012, 10:31:36 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 05, 2012, 08:46:55 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 05, 2012, 08:26:58 AM
Oh crap, I forgot to move the minor allies when I re-did my move file. Well, that is probably a game losing mistake.
You didn't move the Romanians next to Odeassa, the rest moved according to the replay
WEll duh, is it the Romanians next to Odessa who moved to block the escape of the unit in question.
go ahead and move it then.
A show of good sportsmanship on the Eastern Front? :o
Quote from: Valmy on January 05, 2012, 10:51:46 AM
A show of good sportsmanship on the Eastern Front? :o
Well, that is how we play in general.
The annoying thing is that I DID move the unit in question. But then when I was moving all the other units around to make my grand encirclement plan, I messed some up, and could not remember where they started from.
So I opened another instance of CB with the pre-move file, moved everyone back to their start spots, and redid the moved. And forgot to move that one unit. Which Tamas could actually confirm, since all those moves, moves back, and re-moves where in the CB file.
In any case, Tamas failed to break out, and the Germans played Hedgehogs, bravely sacrificing the Kampfgruppe outside Moscow to hold the attack in place, and keeping Moscow from being cut off. The situation there is dire though, and we may have to abandon Moscow anyway...if we even can, at this point.
Quote from: Valmy on January 05, 2012, 10:51:46 AM
A show of good sportsmanship on the Eastern Front? :o
No kidding. Tamas showing great restraint in resisting an opportunity to screw over Romanians.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 05, 2012, 12:00:28 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 05, 2012, 10:51:46 AM
A show of good sportsmanship on the Eastern Front? :o
No kidding. Tamas showing great restraint in resisting an opportunity to screw over Romanians.
:lol: indeed
Now this is an exciting game.
I've played about 6 turns solo to get the grasp of it. The game has great balance, as Axis you are on the verge of autovictory, but you lack armies to get this single lacking point in time. Maybe one should go with more, but less sure attacks and let die rolls decide?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 05, 2012, 07:28:45 PM
Now this is an exciting game.
it actually is. Now Berkut has one turn to conquer Stalingrad (impossible due to deep snow and Soviet line of defense), or a lot of other cities to get enough VPs for his very last auto-victory check at the start of next turn.
Assuming he can't pull that off, he will need both Stalingrad and Sevastopol to auto-win, and keeping Moscow and Leningrad of course.
But that will be a much harder proposition than just stopping me from winning.
Because before you might think otherwise, this was the easier half of the Soviet game. Now comes the challenge of gaining as much VPs as the Germans did, before 1944 ends. And with Berkut's performance, that will take some effort. And that only warrants a continuation to '45. I can win an auto-victory a few times before that of course but again: it would be quite the achievement.
We will see. Berk can still pull of a trick and knock me out for good.
Quote from: szmik on January 06, 2012, 10:22:14 AM
I've played about 6 turns solo to get the grasp of it. The game has great balance, as Axis you are on the verge of autovictory, but you lack armies to get this single lacking point in time. Maybe one should go with more, but less sure attacks and let die rolls decide?
I think the balance favors a full play until the end of '44 or '45. The Germans have a lot of chance at winning this by stopping a historical Soviet success, assuming they can perform well during their heydays. While a berserk style certainly has a shot at autovictory, a slow but steady flow of VPs until Turn 12 seems to be a perfectly viable strategy.
Which version of the rules are you using? 2nd edition?
I'd be interested in playing it through Cyberboard and ACTS, after assimilating the rules.
Quote from: Drakken on January 06, 2012, 10:27:35 AM
Which version of the rules are you using? 2nd edition?
I'd be interested in playing it through Cyberboard and ACTS, after assimilating the rules.
the latest living rules
Got them. Seems rather similar to Paths of Glory, so I won't be that lost.
The Germans have pulled out of Moscow. We did not think we could hold the city in the winter, and the risk of losing out best unit to encirclement was simply too great...now we shall see how the other side does on the offensive...
Quote from: Drakken on January 06, 2012, 10:38:15 AM
Got them. Seems rather similar to Paths of Glory, so I won't be that lost.
Counterblow rule would work perfectly in PoG, no more silly corps cutting off supply. <_<
TURN 11 JANUARY-FEBRUARY 1943
Not much happened this turn, the deep snow made sure there would be no chance for big advances despite Soviets gaining the ability of extra hex of armor advance the Germans have had since the outset.
Moscow was regained, but the scheduled utter failure of the attack north-west of it did not fail to happen.
Voronezh was also liberated but the mere retreat of the enemy army was a dissappointment considering the overwhelming odds it faced.
The iniative changed at the start of the next turn. Berkut achieved 23VPs, I have 12 at present. I missed the auto-victory mark by 4VPs. To be honest, the future auto-victory requirements can be made unreachable to me by Berkut assuming his defensive line will not break in a decisive way. So the most realistic goal is getting to and hopefully through the border by 1945, and win the game then.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi40.tinypic.com%2F258w66s.jpg&hash=4bede6d192bac5cbc11c119ca34b22303cd66c42)
Quote from: szmik on January 06, 2012, 11:46:41 AM
Quote from: Drakken on January 06, 2012, 10:38:15 AM
Got them. Seems rather similar to Paths of Glory, so I won't be that lost.
Counterblow rule would work perfectly in PoG, no more silly corps cutting off supply. <_<
The only PoG players that let corps cut their units OOS are the bad PoG players.
needless to say, Leningrad will be a huge pain in the ass. Seriously I am starting to think it is a bigger loss than Moscow. It gets perma-suppiled via the black sea, it has 2 column shifts when defending, so you need some major force-concentration against it, and you can't even stack until '45, and you need every unit to push push push anyway. Annoying. :mad:
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 12:55:27 PM
needless to say, Leningrad will be a huge pain in the ass. Seriously I am starting to think it is a bigger loss than Moscow. It gets perma-suppiled via the black sea, it has 2 column shifts when defending, so you need some major force-concentration against it, and you can't even stack until '45, and you need every unit to push push push anyway. Annoying. :mad:
WTF?
The Black Sea. You know, the sea over which Sweden sent all those ball bearings. Don't you know your own history?
Quote from: The Brain on January 06, 2012, 05:02:35 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 12:55:27 PM
needless to say, Leningrad will be a huge pain in the ass. Seriously I am starting to think it is a bigger loss than Moscow. It gets perma-suppiled via the black sea, it has 2 column shifts when defending, so you need some major force-concentration against it, and you can't even stack until '45, and you need every unit to push push push anyway. Annoying. :mad:
WTF?
Ok so I did a typo, and I meant the Baltic Sea.
Insignificant sea is insignificant.
TURN 12 MARCH-APRIL 1943
This was to be a turn of lull, with spring thaw mud setting in, but alas, Berkut drew a weather changer card and so winter snow stayed a while longer.
He continued to optimize his defensive line.
Which was a good decision, as I was helding my Major Offensive card, allowing me to draw 4 extra cards (doubling my handsize for the turn, basically), in exchance of having two initiate at least four voluntary attacks. It was playable in Clear or Snow weather only. So the lengthening of winter allowed an early start of what the Grand Marshal (me) called the Donets-Don Offensive.
With lost units replaced, the heroic defenders of the Union of Workers' Paradise set off to punch holes in the German lines along those two great rivers, while also the trench warfare near Moscow continued.
The map, before Berkut placing Counterblows:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi40.tinypic.com%2F11l1vuv.jpg&hash=64651c171f7fc6f159edb0d676b05fb63fb3c6d4)
What are the SS doing sitting in Kiev? Did Berk need more atrocity points or something?
Quote from: Kleves on January 07, 2012, 10:00:22 AM
What are the SS doing sitting in Kiev? Did Berk need more atrocity points or something?
:lol:
he just got them this turn
Quote from: Tamas on January 06, 2012, 12:55:27 PM
needless to say, Leningrad will be a huge pain in the ass. Seriously I am starting to think it is a bigger loss than Moscow. It gets perma-suppiled via the black sea, it has 2 column shifts when defending, so you need some major force-concentration against it, and you can't even stack until '45, and you need every unit to push push push anyway. Annoying. :mad:
One lucky DR result and their pushed into the Baltic, though, no?
This going to continue? You must march on Berlin!
Quote from: Solmyr on January 12, 2012, 07:08:51 AM
This going to continue? You must march on Berlin!
We need to get together on chat and resolve the offensive, but Berkut had some RL troubles. I am waiting on him to ping me when he is available.
THE POCKET THAT ALMOST WAS
So, back in action!
It was my turn to attack, and while Berkut placed two CBs only one was played out, as part of a furious card-battle at the start of my combat phase.
As you can see below, my masterful plan ALMOST succeeded. Using massive Sturmovik support, I broke through the Romanians in Rostov, pierced on to Stalino, cutting the supplies of the German 11th Army.
I was all set and go to also encircle the 3rd Panzer corps, as well as the freshly retreated Romanian army, but my second attack stopped with an Exchange, and the biggest tank battle so far, to the north of all this, also ended with no effect. My great victory robbed from me!
I did manage to push slowly westward in the Moscow sector though.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.tinypic.com%2F16jppbt.jpg&hash=005a58f85049d6f0ea1ffb031e18fce4725f73a6)
It is perhaps worth noting that Berkut's morale regarding this game is failing. I would hate if he bailed though. Obviously he did not run tests of the soviet initative half of the game otherwise he would know full well he has all the chances to delay me long enough. But I will not show him to beat me :P
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2012, 03:33:22 AM
It is perhaps worth noting that Berkut's morale regarding this game is failing. I would hate if he bailed though. Obviously he did not run tests of the soviet initative half of the game otherwise he would know full well he has all the chances to delay me long enough. But I will not show him to beat me :P
This is typical of games based on the Eastern front, the Axis player losing interest when put on the defensive. Too bad though, as I greatly enjoyed reading this AAR. I want to play this game now.
Oh please, my morale is not failing. That is horseshit thing to say Tamas.
I noted during our last session that my initially very positive views of the game were not lasting. The reasons for that have nothing to do with the inevitable initiative shift that every single east front game has, plenty of which I like just fine.
Bullshit comments like that will make me just not want to fucking play with you though. Especially since you know EXACTLY why I am not as responsive as I would like to be.
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2012, 01:05:51 PM
Oh please, my morale is not failing. That is horseshit thing to say Tamas.
I noted during our last session that my initially very positive views of the game were not lasting. The reasons for that have nothing to do with the inevitable initiative shift that every single east front game has, plenty of which I like just fine.
Bullshit comments like that will make me just not want to fucking play with you though. Especially since you know EXACTLY why I am not as responsive as I would like to be.
I am yanking your chains :P
Gross.
You did not even say it right... :bleeding:
Quote from: Ancient Demon on January 14, 2012, 12:57:28 PM
Quote from: Tamas on January 14, 2012, 03:33:22 AM
It is perhaps worth noting that Berkut's morale regarding this game is failing. I would hate if he bailed though. Obviously he did not run tests of the soviet initative half of the game otherwise he would know full well he has all the chances to delay me long enough. But I will not show him to beat me :P
This is typical of games based on the Eastern front, the Axis player losing interest when put on the defensive. Too bad though, as I greatly enjoyed reading this AAR. I want to play this game now.
That's when it's the most exciting playing the axis. Well, imo anyway.
Quote from: Shade on January 14, 2012, 02:49:34 PM
You did not even say it right... :bleeding:
Ok so I was drunk, writing in a foreign language. Sue me :P
Quote from: Tamas on January 15, 2012, 03:35:43 AM
Quote from: Shade on January 14, 2012, 02:49:34 PM
You did not even say it right... :bleeding:
Ok so I was drunk, writing in a foreign language. Sue me :P
Excuses are the nails to the house of failure... :P
Quote from: Shade on January 15, 2012, 08:15:23 AM
Quote from: Tamas on January 15, 2012, 03:35:43 AM
Quote from: Shade on January 14, 2012, 02:49:34 PM
You did not even say it right... :bleeding:
Ok so I was drunk, writing in a foreign language. Sue me :P
Excuses are the nails to the house of failure... :P
... and you shouldn't give your laundry to kittens with guns :ph34r:
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2012, 01:05:51 PM
I noted during our last session that my initially very positive views of the game were not lasting.
Please explain.
The designer's one of the biggest tools in the biz, for one.
Wait, that's my reason for not playing.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on January 16, 2012, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2012, 01:05:51 PM
I noted during our last session that my initially very positive views of the game were not lasting.
Please explain.
A variety of things.
1. East Front games where the Soviets are not effected by weather annoy me. It is fine that the Germans even get effected MORE by the weather, or that you can even say that first winter was especially bad for them because they were not prepared, but the general rule of "In Winter, attacker is shifted down a column if the defender is Soviet" is somewhat idiotic. Like Russians don't feel the cold, or Russian trucks drive in the snow better or Russian soldiers don't get cold.
2. My other "meh" is that the way the combat system and replacement system works, the Russians really don't care how many losses they take. In fact, it doesn't even really matter how many Russians you kill, because the replacement system largely amounts to "take all dead Russians, stick them back on the map". This probably works for balance and "design for effect" reasons, but from a gameplay perspective, it makes it kind of pointless to come up with clever tactics to pocket and kill Russians. So what? They are all coming back anyway, so why bother? To some degree this is a feature, because it does force the German player to make his attacks have a purpose beyond just trying to kill Russians. The opportunity to kill a few units is not really a good enough reason to attack, since it won't matter anyway, you need to have a purpose beyond that.
But it still makes the combat phase less interesting, IMO. There are all these interesting cards that let you do interesting things, that mostly amount to nothing at all, because at the end of the day, who cares that you just made a nice play to kill some units or cut them out of supply? They are just coming back anyway. Play well, and you kill more Russians, that all come back. Play poorly, and you kill less Russians, which amounts to the same thing...
So, the game sucks?
No, I would not say that at all. Just has some things that I don't like, still plenty that I do like. Haven't played it nearly enough to decide if it sucks or not.
Regarding unit losses: Sure the Russians can bring back no matter how many. As long as they can pay with cards.
And you draw 4 cards per turn. And freshly replaced units can't attack unless you burn one more card of them. And surrendered units cost 2 cards just to get back. While the German player keeps killing Russians, he holds complete control over initative and flow of the game.
With such low counter-density, how else could you simulate the conflict without the flow of Russian replacements?
I still have a pretty good opinion about the game, but let's see how the late game goes.
Quote from: Tamas on January 17, 2012, 02:47:46 AM
Regarding unit losses: Sure the Russians can bring back no matter how many. As long as they can pay with cards.
And of course they can, since they have nothing else to do with their cards. Sure, they could use them for combat - but why do that? Why spend a card to influence a combat, when it doesn't matter if you lose because you can just toss the card to get the unit back anyway?
Quote
And you draw 4 cards per turn. And freshly replaced units can't attack unless you burn one more card of them.
They don't generally want to attack, so that is immaterial.
Quote
And surrendered units cost 2 cards just to get back.
Oh dear. Of course, alternatively you can just play the "Take 2 units back from anywhere and plop them on the board" card, which amounts to 1 card that counts as 4.
Quote
While the German player keeps killing Russians, he holds complete control over initative and flow of the game.
He holds that anyway, until he doesn't, at which point he can no longer kill Russians except piecemeal, and it likely doesn't matter then either.
Quote
With such low counter-density, how else could you simulate the conflict without the flow of Russian replacements?
I don't know - I am not saying there is a better way, I am saying that the way it works makes for a negative gaming experience. It could be that is the only possible way, but that doesn't make it any more fun.
Quote
I still have a pretty good opinion about the game, but let's see how the late game goes.
Sure. You would have to send a file to do that though. It's been...4 days now.
Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2012, 03:05:38 AM
Sure. You would have to send a file to do that though. It's been...4 days now.
I didn't see it arrive the last time. :P Will do it once I have some free time at work.
Quote from: Berkut on January 17, 2012, 03:05:38 AM
Sure. You would have to send a file to do that though. It's been...4 days now.
Clearly, his morale to play the game is starting to fade now that the initiative has swung.
Someone should make a Downfall clip about this game between Berks and Tamas :p
Quote from: Warspite on January 17, 2012, 04:18:35 PM
Someone should make a Downfall clip about this game between Berks and Tamas :p
Es Bleiben in Raum Keitl, Jodl, Krebs und BurgdorfNow I wish to make a reasoned criticism of the game as it is designedDAS WAR EIN BEFEHL!THIS GAME SUCKS MAGYAR GYPSY ASS!DAS ANGRIFF STEINERS WAR EIN BEFEHL!ITS COMPLETELY UNFAIR THAT RUSSIAN UNITS GET TO MAGIC BACK TO LIFE!etc?
TURN 13 MAY-JUNE 1943
A big German concentration of forces reversed Soviet gains from last turn with a furious offensive.
The Soviets had a wonderful hand of cards, and made a similar concentration north-east of German-held Kharkov to strike heavily on the German lines which were made vulnerable by their offensive.
However, German counter-card plays, and above all, dysmal dice rolls stopped the entire Soviet offensive in it's tracks and caused severe losses.
A true tragedy that may very well be looked up on later as the decisive act of the war.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi39.tinypic.com%2Fad0v8k.jpg&hash=b249a5664008e1f0b5909b5e4bb991acc36a0220)
Thanks for the update, and thanks for putting the date, not just the turn number, in the title.
I wasn't at all sure where you guys were in the game, calender-wise.
And, sorry to see you get the crap rolls. I guess you can just hope that the same happens at some point to Berkut.
Hey, he got one great roll, getting a 6 on the CRT for a "Defender Shattered" result. :bleeding:
But Manstein came along, forcing a re-roll which was "No Effect". :yeah:
During the German turn, the SS Panzer and 3rd Panzer couter-attack against the weak Soviet southern flank, pushing back a shock army and shattering an infantry army. Nothing to serious, but I am trying to punish Tamas for concentrating his offensive forces in the center by hitting the flank. I didn't kill anything (was hoping to off the shock army) but he does have a large hole in the south now...
Quote from: Berkut on January 16, 2012, 10:00:43 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on January 16, 2012, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2012, 01:05:51 PM
I noted during our last session that my initially very positive views of the game were not lasting.
Please explain.
A variety of things.
1. East Front games where the Soviets are not effected by weather annoy me. It is fine that the Germans even get effected MORE by the weather, or that you can even say that first winter was especially bad for them because they were not prepared, but the general rule of "In Winter, attacker is shifted down a column if the defender is Soviet" is somewhat idiotic. Like Russians don't feel the cold, or Russian trucks drive in the snow better or Russian soldiers don't get cold.
Also, apparently the Russians have magic trucks that are not effected by mud. Mud effects only apply to Germans, for most/all practical purposes.
Unity of Command's weather hurts both sides. :smarty:
Quote from: Berkut on January 20, 2012, 10:37:35 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 16, 2012, 10:00:43 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on January 16, 2012, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2012, 01:05:51 PM
I noted during our last session that my initially very positive views of the game were not lasting.
Please explain.
A variety of things.
1. East Front games where the Soviets are not effected by weather annoy me. It is fine that the Germans even get effected MORE by the weather, or that you can even say that first winter was especially bad for them because they were not prepared, but the general rule of "In Winter, attacker is shifted down a column if the defender is Soviet" is somewhat idiotic. Like Russians don't feel the cold, or Russian trucks drive in the snow better or Russian soldiers don't get cold.
Also, apparently the Russians have magic trucks that are not effected by mud. Mud effects only apply to Germans, for most/all practical purposes.
heh, my improved mechanized units have 4 MPs, so there is an effect :P and the real hurt here is the lack of armor advance
Quote from: Habbaku on January 20, 2012, 11:21:35 AM
Unity of Command's weather hurts both sides. :smarty:
With the size of the heads, I could imagine :D
Quote from: Berkut on January 16, 2012, 10:00:43 PM
Quote from: Ancient Demon on January 16, 2012, 09:02:31 PM
Quote from: Berkut on January 14, 2012, 01:05:51 PM
I noted during our last session that my initially very positive views of the game were not lasting.
Please explain.
A variety of things.
1. East Front games where the Soviets are not effected by weather annoy me. It is fine that the Germans even get effected MORE by the weather, or that you can even say that first winter was especially bad for them because they were not prepared, but the general rule of "In Winter, attacker is shifted down a column if the defender is Soviet" is somewhat idiotic. Like Russians don't feel the cold, or Russian trucks drive in the snow better or Russian soldiers don't get cold.
So Russian soldiers aren't immune to cold, is what you're saying? :P
Quote2. My other "meh" is that the way the combat system and replacement system works, the Russians really don't care how many losses they take. In fact, it doesn't even really matter how many Russians you kill, because the replacement system largely amounts to "take all dead Russians, stick them back on the map". This probably works for balance and "design for effect" reasons, but from a gameplay perspective, it makes it kind of pointless to come up with clever tactics to pocket and kill Russians. So what? They are all coming back anyway, so why bother? To some degree this is a feature, because it does force the German player to make his attacks have a purpose beyond just trying to kill Russians. The opportunity to kill a few units is not really a good enough reason to attack, since it won't matter anyway, you need to have a purpose beyond that.
But it still makes the combat phase less interesting, IMO. There are all these interesting cards that let you do interesting things, that mostly amount to nothing at all, because at the end of the day, who cares that you just made a nice play to kill some units or cut them out of supply? They are just coming back anyway. Play well, and you kill more Russians, that all come back. Play poorly, and you kill less Russians, which amounts to the same thing...
Hm. That's interesting. My impression was that the RKKA
was nearly bled out by 1945, with manpower becoming a big issue both in regards to actually getting bodies to units and viz. Soviet agriculture. That is, that in some different world, the Germans could have killed enough Russians to make them basically ineffective. I mean, there were a lot but hardly an infinite number of them.
Maybe those that have played this can answer. What does this game offer that older titles like Russian Campaign, Russian Front or others have already established? Seems like a dumbed down version. Please, no offense intended.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 21, 2012, 04:59:58 PM
Maybe those that have played this can answer. What does this game offer that older titles like Russian Campaign, Russian Front or others have already established? Seems like a dumbed down version. Please, no offense intended.
I don't know those games. This one is heavy on abstraction, due to the scale. I am fairly convinced that it does a good job of presenting you with historical problems, a historical flow, and a balanced game victory points - wise, but I think Berkut would challenge this on multiple points, and based on my test plays I have doubts about late game Soviet chances which I am awaiting to see in proper action.
For me, what the game surely gives above any more hardcore takes on the theme, is a chance to play it with face to face opponents, due to scale and playtime.
I'd very much like to see you guys finish this game. I was entertained so far.
Quote from: Razgovory on January 21, 2012, 06:32:32 PM
I'd very much like to see you guys finish this game. I was entertained so far.
We are playing it still and I will do an update tomorrow. :)
Excellent.
Quote from: 11B4V on January 21, 2012, 04:59:58 PM
Maybe those that have played this can answer. What does this game offer that older titles like Russian Campaign, Russian Front or others have already established? Seems like a dumbed down version. Please, no offense intended.
Some things I think this does better than TRC, as an example (understanding that this game is clearly very influenced by TRC and Russia Besieged).
1. First and foremost, I think its biggest selling point is that it does an excellent job of creating a lot of "oh crap, that plan just went to shit..." moments. The way the card play works with the ability of the non-phasing player to completely screw up your carefully laid plans places a premium on keeping your planning abstract Rather than the "if I move unit A to hex Y, and unit B to hex Z I know that there is nothing that my opponent can do to keep me from doing what I want to do..." norms you get in most games, there is just too many things the other guy can do to throw your plan into tatters.
Which means you cannot make plans that are dependent on things going according to plan. Which means you often do not achieve as much as you could have, because you simply do not know. There is a very nice "swirl" to the game that is a blast.
2. The VP system is really cool. At least I think it is. The way the Germans drive at auto-victory, but if they do not achieve it they are still rewarding for coming as close as possible is really well done. You don't get the common German "Well, I am not going to AV, so there is no reason to try to take anymore VP sapces" that you see in most EF games.
3. The manner in which the non-phasing player usually has some pretty interesting decisions to make does a nice job of making the game a lot of fun. You aren't just sitting there in your turn waiting for the other guy to finish so you can play.
The game is not perfect, but so far it has been a lot of fun. And I think that the ways in which other games are more complex are not necessarily that meaningful, unless you start talking about games that are complex enough (say Red Star Rising) that the comparison is not longer really valid.
TURNS 14 AND 15, JULY-OCTOBER 1943
It is a credit to the German defensive cardplay, that there is not much to say about mid-summer time. Smolensk was liberated, yes, but once again the Soviet attempt to break through to the wide open plains behind the German lines failed, as they could not shatter the defending units, which retreated in good order.
But time is of the essence, so the Soviet tanks were pushed into a dangerous advance, severly compromising their flanks.
The below screen is from the German 15th turn, to show you just that:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2F2jb9x61.jpg&hash=c61aec1902931a52d0cc8e745a62539a8bb6938a)
You can see that I managed to form a much more smaller and thus dangerous version of the Kursk salient, and the Germans were quick to capitalize on that. But Andrey Yeremenko saved the day, and gave ma Counterblow result, continuing the big battle itself into my turn, but allowing me partially retreat my forces and reduce the potential damage.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F2%2F26%2FAI_Eremenko_01.jpg%2F200px-AI_Eremenko_01.jpg&hash=c589c7709312c7aa79a12237a8f20cdc716bb802)
You can also note that Berkut played Defensive Works on Kharkov, a wise move which made the liberation of that key city that much harder to try.
So, my Turn 15 moves saw the aforementioned partial retreat of my advancing tanks, as well as preparing yet another attempt at Rostov:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2F10epgzm.jpg&hash=38698e17fa8d2fb3d9f4ec13c3035f0814a77e58)
Nice to see this continue.
Quote from: Berkut on January 21, 2012, 10:34:09 PM
1. First and foremost, I think its biggest selling point is that it does an excellent job of creating a lot of "oh crap, that plan just went to shit..." moments. The way the card play works with the ability of the non-phasing player to completely screw up your carefully laid plans places a premium on keeping your planning abstract Rather than the "if I move unit A to hex Y, and unit B to hex Z I know that there is nothing that my opponent can do to keep me from doing what I want to do..." norms you get in most games, there is just too many things the other guy can do to throw your plan into tatters.
Which means you cannot make plans that are dependent on things going according to plan. Which means you often do not achieve as much as you could have, because you simply do not know. There is a very nice "swirl" to the game that is a blast.
2. The VP system is really cool. At least I think it is. The way the Germans drive at auto-victory, but if they do not achieve it they are still rewarding for coming as close as possible is really well done. You don't get the common German "Well, I am not going to AV, so there is no reason to try to take anymore VP sapces" that you see in most EF games.
3. The manner in which the non-phasing player usually has some pretty interesting decisions to make does a nice job of making the game a lot of fun. You aren't just sitting there in your turn waiting for the other guy to finish so you can play.
The game is not perfect, but so far it has been a lot of fun. And I think that the ways in which other games are more complex are not necessarily that meaningful, unless you start talking about games that are complex enough (say Red Star Rising) that the comparison is not longer really valid.
I think a lot of designers get so wrapped up in the mechanics that they fail to keep their eye on the ball, which is
interesting decisions.
Pride of Nations is perhaps the classic example. Glad to see that this game has avoided that pitfall, apparently in spades.
Quote from: grumbler on January 22, 2012, 09:27:24 AM
I think a lot of designers get so wrapped up in the mechanics that they fail to keep their eye on the ball, which is interesting decisions.
I am actually surprised how many game players don't even seem to understand that. They buy based on how cool it looks, not how good of a game it is...
TURN 15 CONTINUED
Major Soviet victory near Rostov! The city has been liberated, the 11th German army shattered, the 3rd Panzer Corps destroyed, as the Soviets swept aside the SS Panzer unit which initiated a Counterblow attempt on the northern flank of that sector, the shock assault shattered the 11th army defending Rostov, then the employment of Wave Attacks allowed all these units to converge on the 3rd Panzer from all directions, with no route to retreat.
All is not fine however, the German panzer concentration north of Kharkov initiated a Counterblow which in turn resulted in a CB itself, in a trick situation open to German exploit next turn.
Luckily however, one of the two panzer units there is the 2nd Panzer, which will be removed to the Western Front for good at the start of next turn.
Also, forecasts already indicated snow weather for Turn 16 instead of the previously expected mud. We of course had unexpected mud this turn, so it's fitting. But winter, if it stays that way, means 3 things:
-the germans can more easily plug the southern hole, their movement will not be so restricted
-the soviets can exploit the southern hole, their movement will not be so restricted
-two-hex advance open in snow, and the tricky situation at Kharkov mean that still both sides can deliver major punches, altough clearly it would be more risky for the Germans to attempt so, what's with their reduced efficiency in the cold and all.
Pfft, the German army has zero offensive capability at this point. They cannot achieve even a 3-1 odds attack anywhere without crippling themselves. Once they are upgraded, every Soviet unit is considerably stronger (sometimes 3 times the strength) of most German units.
I think I understand what the designer is trying to do with this - it's not that unit for unit they are trying to show that the Soviets are twice as strong as the Germans, but that they want to keep counter density down, so upgraded Soviet units represent MORE units, really. However, that makes it nearly impossible for the German army to counter attack, since there won't be any "vulnerable" Soviet units, even if they over-extend a little bit.
Combined with Soviet super "armor" (Shock units that get the armor shift that the Germans only get in perfect weather and clear terrain in any and all circumstances), and the Soviet army in 1943 is significantly superior in both quantity and quality to the Germans.
It's kind of funny, I think I can count on one hand the number of times I've gotten an armor shift against the Soviets. The Soviets can get the shock shift anywhere and everywhere.
TURN 16 NOVEMBER-DECEMBER 1943
Last turn southern breakthrough is proving to be decisive, at least on the short term. The German forces conducted a retreat all over the front, even abandoning mighty Leningrad.
The Soviets were quick to catch up and launch various offensives, including an attempt to tackle the Kharkov fortifications head-on:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi40.tinypic.com%2Faughhu.jpg&hash=a4b218305c718ec6fddeb6c48bf7354ad50b9fd7)
I would note that I cannot stack, so I can only amass reasonable odds at hexes where hex sides allow for it, making my offensives quite predictable I think.
As for the game situation, I have 16VPs, altough this is something we might have to doublecheck. But, the Axis High Tide marker is at 23, and there will be two VP-increasing event for me in '44. That means, I still have 5VPs (5 cities) to capture before 1944 runs out.
Now you guys know the situation better than I do, since Tamas didn't bother sending a game file...
Quote from: Berkut on January 25, 2012, 10:19:52 AM
Now you guys know the situation better than I do, since Tamas didn't bother sending a game file...
:lol: Sorry I thought I did.
They don't know everything, I forgot to mention that I played Western Offensive to have you discard two cards of your choice. :P
What are the Soviet Units that look like a combination of Artillery and Infantry? Like that chap 3 hexes west of Moscow with the "8-2" score?
Quote from: Razgovory on January 25, 2012, 12:34:55 PM
What are the Soviet Units that look like a combination of Artillery and Infantry? Like that chap 3 hexes west of Moscow with the "8-2" score?
shock armies
Ah. Thanks.
Are you guys going to replay, taking opposite sides after this?
Quote from: Jacob on January 26, 2012, 07:33:30 PM
Are you guys going to replay, taking opposite sides after this?
I would like to see that.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 26, 2012, 08:03:07 PM
Quote from: Jacob on January 26, 2012, 07:33:30 PM
Are you guys going to replay, taking opposite sides after this?
I would like to see that.
and Tamas ragequit :P
I haven't given up on this yet, just waiting for Berkut to be available for real-time battle resolutions