This out of Lettow's post about southern valour.
Feel free to post your opinion.
Not that I have to invite you.
You mothefuckers hijack even your own damn threads.
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 27, 2009, 10:11:33 AM
Its true- It is valour & tradition, minus a comma and avoiding the yankee spelling of the word in favour of the correct one.
Although, the South -does- have a tradition of valour. Some of the best soldiers in the world.
Valour, tradition of valour.
Forgive me if I have very little regard for valour.
Its not that valour is not important for a soldier, it is just that in my experience people (as in nations and cultures) that cultivate valour as a virtue in itself, are people that have not been succesful in the field of arms.
Let me see if I can explain myself.
I come from a culture that see valour as a product of training and discipline. Discipline by Pride, not by Fear, and training as in actual combat focused training, not stupid D&C (Drill and Ceremony). As I've heard since I was a kid, valour without discipline and training is a feeble feeling. Valour is the product of discipline and training.
I don't give a flying fuck about how personally brave a person might be. Everybody BREAKS, everybody FLIES, sooner than later if you don't know what you are doing, if you have no training and no discipline. I don't give a fuck about your motivation or your hatred for your enemies. That's just bullshit. Hatred is not gonna keep you focused and/or motivated when the mission goes sour, when you have to go through thirst, hunger, all kinds of shortages and "inconviniances", as when other people fucks up and you have to pick up the slack, when your leadership don't know shit of what their are doing and sends you into harms way without a proper plan or coordination with friendly units.
War fucking sucks. It is a a hell of a lot more than just squeezing your damn trigger and killing your enemies. There is a price we all pay for this. Killing enemies is easy. Paying the price, losing your buddies, your brothers, is what kills a soldier's soul.
And you know what keeps a soldier going? Discipline and Training.
And believing that what you are doing is right.
Valour?
I don't believe in valour in war as an exceptional virtue.
I believe most soldiers placed in the wrong situation can be extremely valourous.
It is a product of their training and discipline.
I have seen many acts of valour through out my life. I have seen the skinny geeky guy with glasses that barely made the cut charge into an enemy improvised position, through a hail of bullets and keep going. I have seen the recent inmigrant that barely speaks the language get shot and keep fighting, refusing treatment from our medic untill our wounded have been treated and evacuated. I have seen the rookie butter-bar Lieutenant become a man in one day, get blown off and wounded, and still keep his cool and lead his guys into the enemy position.
And believe me, their bravery did not come from culture or hatred of their enemies.
Normal and regular guys, from a seemingly weak Western culture, but with the right kind of training and discipline.
And their bravery is beyond question.
I believe that in this exchange, we have the classic teabagging of Lettow by Siegey.
Romance meets reality. Good job, Siege.
I agree with Siegy.
It was the intense discipline and training that made the 9/11 hijackers the heroes that they are. Against the infidel, they displayed heroic courage and self sacrifice!
Allah Akbar!
Quote from: Scipio on April 28, 2009, 08:16:36 PM
I believe that in this exchange, we have the classic teabagging of Lettow by Siegey.
What do you mean?
I don't have a bad opinion of Lettow, other than he is racist.
I believe what makes people diferent is culture, not "race".
Racism seems very unjust to me. A guy, not matter even if he is muslim, have the right to westernize and change his ways.
I don't judge people by the color of their skins, but by their culture.
Quote from: Liquid Poo on April 28, 2009, 08:21:45 PM
I agree with Siegy.
It was the intense discipline and training that made the 9/11 hijackers the heroes that they are. Against the infidel, they displayed heroic courage and self sacrifice!
Allah Akbar!
:yawn: Weakest troll in Languish history?
You be the judge!
Quote from: Siege on April 28, 2009, 08:25:25 PM
Quote from: Scipio on April 28, 2009, 08:16:36 PM
I believe that in this exchange, we have the classic teabagging of Lettow by Siegey.
What do you mean?
It means you kicked his ass, soldier.
Quote from: Siege on April 28, 2009, 08:25:25 PM
Quote from: Scipio on April 28, 2009, 08:16:36 PM
I believe that in this exchange, we have the classic teabagging of Lettow by Siegey.
What do you mean?
I don't have a bad opinion of Lettow, other than he is racist.
I believe what makes people diferent is culture, not "race".
Racism seems very unjust to me. A guy, not matter even if he is muslim, have the right to westernize and change his ways.
I don't judge people by the color of their skins, but by their culture.
Even you could act like a Westerner. But you won't.
Quote from: Liquid Poo on April 28, 2009, 08:21:45 PM
I agree with Siegy.
It was the intense discipline and training that made the 9/11 hijackers the heroes that they are. Against the infidel, they displayed heroic courage and self sacrifice!
Allah Akbar!
Suicide is easy for muslims.
You don't understand their culture.
When they flew those planes into the WTC, they were in control. They decided their fate and timing.
A firefight, however, is something you don't control.
No time for last prayer, no time to say goodbye to your own life.
I don;t have a good opinion of muslim valour, because I know how it works.
For muslims, its all about control.
I have seen them break too many times.
They work themselves mentally before doing anything.
I can't really criticize anything Seigey said.
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2009, 08:39:11 PM
I can't really criticize anything Seigey said.
No matter how much I'd like to. The only thing I can do is point out that no matter how disciplined or skilled he is, he's not really one of us.
Quote from: Neil on April 28, 2009, 08:41:48 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 28, 2009, 08:39:11 PM
I can't really criticize anything Seigey said.
No matter how much I'd like to.
Whoa, that have to be the greatest prise you ever gave to me!
Quote
The only thing I can do is point out that no matter how disciplined or skilled he is, he's not really one of us.
Fuck you!
I need some fresh "Fuck U Neil" pictures.
I remember Napoleon saying something about 1 Mameluk being equal to 3 Frenchmen but 100 Frenchmen being equal to 1000 Mameluks. One of the exiled Spartan kings told Xerxes something similar about the Spartans.
somebody hacked seigy's account. remember his "warrior" threads?
anyhow, I gotta agree with the guy this time.
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2009, 09:54:48 PM
I remember Napoleon saying something about 1 Mameluk being equal to 3 Frenchmen but 100 Frenchmen being equal to 1000 Mameluks. One of the exiled Spartan kings told Xerxes something similar about the Spartans.
Well, I don't know about Nappy's time, but it certainly doesn't apply for our times.
I mean, one muslim terrorist for 3 american soldiers? :lol:
That's either a regular infantry fireteam, a reconainsance team, or an sniper team.
In either case, no hope for your lonely brave muslim warrior. :lol:
And a hundred american soldiers would wipe their asses with 10 000 regular arab/muslim soldiers.
Easily.
Now, terrorists, is a diferent ball game, because we can't get them all together in a nice and organized manner.
Quote from: saskganesh on April 28, 2009, 09:59:07 PM
somebody hacked seigy's account. remember his "warrior" threads?
anyhow, I gotta agree with the guy this time.
Wak do u min?
Good post Siegy. :)
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 28, 2009, 11:03:12 PM
Good post Siegy. :)
I think his wife must have typed it, cause i could actually follow it.
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2009, 11:46:23 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 28, 2009, 11:03:12 PM
Good post Siegy. :)
I think his wife must have typed it, cause i could actually follow it.
I'm gonna file an EO complaint against you.
Who's the equal oportunity NCO over here?
Besides, I can see quite a few grammatical mistakes in it.
After I'm done, as usual.
Quote from: Siege on April 28, 2009, 11:49:51 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2009, 11:46:23 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 28, 2009, 11:03:12 PM
Good post Siegy. :)
I think his wife must have typed it, cause i could actually follow it.
I'm gonna file an EO complaint against you.
Who's the equal oportunity NCO over here?
CountDeMoney
:P
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2009, 11:50:51 PM
Quote from: Siege on April 28, 2009, 11:49:51 PM
Quote from: katmai on April 28, 2009, 11:46:23 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 28, 2009, 11:03:12 PM
Good post Siegy. :)
I think his wife must have typed it, cause i could actually follow it.
I'm gonna file an EO complaint against you.
Who's the equal oportunity NCO over here?
CountDeMoney
:P
:lol:
That ain't funny. <_<
You know, I dont have a bad opinion of you either Siege, although I suspect some here do.
I regret the barrier my racism creates between me and the outside world, but could not honestly repudiate it. However, I will repeat that blacks are Southerners, too, and it would be a task of more worth than my life to make them understand and appreciate this fact. I see no reason they should not have the same equality I am extended- Even assimilation and integration could be seen as a justified evil if it tied them to us and against the yankee.
You are right about valour, and I know it. In the thread I made a reference to Culloden- that, I feel, is the school the confederacy inherited. A shout, a charge, and a determination to break the enemy with little regard to your own life..but no real discipline to show patience and perserverence when the fortunes of war reverse, or when attrition and weary conditions frown upon your efforts.
It is an independence of spirit that I prize and think is worth perpetuating, even though I believe it led to Southern defeat again and again. It led to arguing between officers that never should have happened, and aggressive and grandoise strategies the South could not afford.
You are right that valour is something traditionally cherished by those who are 'unsuccessful in arms', I think, but I embrace it as my heritage even so. The idea of french elan in WW1, or the japanese bushido code in WW2 also appeal to me also. Even if it is a futile embrace of death, I find the determination enchanting rather than practical.
It is very much a romanticism over realism, and, to repeat, you are right in just about all your pronouncements on the subject. But it is the legacy I feel my country leaves with me.
Edit: I do not retract my statement, mind, that Southern soldiers were not some of the finest in the world. They were, and induitably superior to their yankee counterparts. (Most glaringly the true yankees of the new england region- The old northwest cheated by having ethnic Southerners fill out their ranks.) The Southern fighting man was freer and looser with his life than his counterpart, shot better, and rode harder.
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:05:56 AM
I will repeat that blacks are Southerners, too, and it would be a task of more worth than my life to make them understand and appreciate this fact.
No, I'm not a "Southerner."
No, garbon, your a deviant, and no mistake.
But of course I meant blacks living in the South. My apologies if this was not abundently clear- I did not feel the need to specify, as blacks are primarily a Southern phenomenon.
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:13:42 AM
blacks are primarily a Southern phenomenon.
How do you figure that? The South certainly has the claim on % of total population, but I'd be interested in hearing that that the South has an overwhelming number of our nation's blacks.
Garbon, why waste your time on him?
Quote from: katmai on April 29, 2009, 12:22:29 AM
Garbon, why waste your time on him?
My show was on commercial. :blush:
Garbon, not only do over half of all blacks in America live in the South, but those who dont mostly had their ancestry from there until fairly recently.
In addition to that, the black experience in America has mostly been a shared one with the Southern experience- either at conflict with us or sharing our sufferings.
As of the 2000 census, 54.8% of blacks lived in the South. While I suppose that does meet the requirements of over half, I think you'd be neglecting a lot if you discounted that other 45.2%.
If fairly recently equals 2 generations or more, I fail to see your point.
Blacks are intensely segregated up north. They live in urban cesspools attended by as few whites as possible- there is a far greater level of integration here, where blacks are actually organic members of society.
And yes, two generations or more is fairly recently. I'd think of a third generation russian immigrant as a russian- you wouldent?
Quote from: Siege on April 28, 2009, 10:05:57 PM
Quote from: Viking on April 28, 2009, 09:54:48 PM
I remember Napoleon saying something about 1 Mameluk being equal to 3 Frenchmen but 100 Frenchmen being equal to 1000 Mameluks. One of the exiled Spartan kings told Xerxes something similar about the Spartans.
Well, I don't know about Nappy's time, but it certainly doesn't apply for our times.
I mean, one muslim terrorist for 3 american soldiers? :lol:
Khobar Towers was one terrorist for 19 americans
Quote
That's either a regular infantry fireteam, a reconainsance team, or an sniper team.
In either case, no hope for your lonely brave muslim warrior. :lol:
And a hundred american soldiers would wipe their asses with 10 000 regular arab/muslim soldiers.
Easily.
Now, terrorists, is a diferent ball game, because we can't get them all together in a nice and organized manner.
The Point that Napoleon was making that despite whatever the fighting skills of the individual soldier, what wins battles is the ability of the soldiers to work together.
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
And yes, two generations or more is fairly recently. I'd think of a third generation russian immigrant as a russian- you wouldent?
:huh: At what point does he become just another white guy? 200 years later?
Nuremberg Laws say 1/8th, American Law used one drop.
Well, the Bible says the sins of the fathers carry unto the third and fourth generation.
Surely he is meaningfully assimilated by the fifth, however.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 29, 2009, 12:46:59 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
And yes, two generations or more is fairly recently. I'd think of a third generation russian immigrant as a russian- you wouldent?
:huh: At what point does he become just another white guy? 200 years later?
Woot suck it Yi and Scips, you are Korean and Rus still :punk:
Quote from: Habbaku on April 29, 2009, 12:46:59 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
And yes, two generations or more is fairly recently. I'd think of a third generation russian immigrant as a russian- you wouldent?
:huh: At what point does he become just another white guy? 200 years later?
While I please don't want you to take me as being on Lettow's side on this debate, but as a fifth generation Ukrainian-Canadian I don't think of myself as "just another white guy"...
So I'm confused. Am I Southern or am I not? :unsure:
:mad:
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:50:58 AM
While I please don't want you to take me as being on Lettow's side on this debate,
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:50:58 AM
While I please don't want you to take me as being on Lettow's side on this debate, but as a fifth generation Ukrainian-Canadian I don't think of myself as "just another white guy"...
If it makes you feel special. :console:
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2009, 12:51:47 AM
So I'm confused. Am I Southern or am I not? :unsure:
In lettow's world you are southern and should be renamed Toby.
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:50:58 AM
While I please don't want you to take me as being on Lettow's side on this debate, but as a fifth generation Ukrainian-Canadian I don't think of myself as "just another white guy"...
Yet you've appended "-Canadian" onto the end of the ethnicity you claim. My contention is with Lettow claiming that a grandson of an immigrant (like myself) is somehow an "Italian" or "Ukrainian" or "Russian" rather than "American."
Your a deviant, garbon. But you didnt need me to tell you that, did you?
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2009, 12:51:47 AM
So I'm confused. Am I Southern or am I not? :unsure:
You are our sleeper-agent in California.
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:53:23 AM
Your a deviant, garbon. But you didnt need me to tell you that, did you?
And "your" a deviant for continuing to rape your one and only language. Learn some grammar.
Quote from: garbon on April 29, 2009, 12:52:37 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:50:58 AM
While I please don't want you to take me as being on Lettow's side on this debate, but as a fifth generation Ukrainian-Canadian I don't think of myself as "just another white guy"...
If it makes you feel special. :console:
In western Canada there's absolutely nothing special about being Ukrainian-Canadian. :lol:
Ive learned some grammar, Habs- Sufficient to make me prefer Southern orthography to the mainline yankee english. And as such, it is your, not you're, among other little changes.
If anything, I put more effort into my grammar than I would by adhering to the Webster conventions.
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:53:23 AM
Your a deviant, garbon. But you didnt need me to tell you that, did you?
But I'm within the magic ring of the fifth generation!
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:54:09 AM
In western Canada there's absolutely nothing special
:yes:
Enjoy your jubilee, then. You are Southern neither by sentiment nor familial ties. I dont think there is any lost love between the two parties.
Was this really such a big deal? Blacks are still Southerners, by and large- only your cut off from the black community.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 29, 2009, 12:53:29 AM
You are our sleeper-agent in California.
OMG, I'm Denzel in the Manchurian Candidate?
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:58:24 AM
You are Southern neither by sentiment nor familial ties.
:huh:
My paternal grandparents are from the South.
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:58:24 AMBlacks are still Southerners, by and large- only your cut off from the black community.
We already went over this, dumbass. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:59:41 AM
This is God's Country. :contract:
I've always wondered what an area would look like if God kept his Old Testament-style "screw everything" approach to the inhabitants. Now I know!
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:59:41 AM
:rolleyes:
This is God's Country. :contract:
And God is dead or otherwise locked up in an insane asylum. :smarty:
Yes, we went over it before, Garbon- and I was right then and remain so.
As for the familial ties- my mistake. You did, after all, say you lay within the fifth generation, so one might therefore reasonably construe there werent Southerners in your line as recently as two generations back. A falsehood on your part, or a misunderstanding on mine?
In the event, you are relegated to a bitter and homosexual renegade Southerner who is assimilating nicely into the left coast. Congradulations?
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 01:05:06 AM
As for the familial ties- my mistake. You did, after all, say you lay within the fifth generation, so one might therefore reasonably construe there werent Southerners in your line as recently as two generations back. A falsehood on your part, or a misunderstanding on mine?
Sorry, I knew as I typed that it wouldn't be interpreted how I'd meant it. I meant that I was "within" that boundary as in still close enough by your own admission.
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 01:05:06 AMIn the event, you are relegated to a bitter and homosexual renegade Southerner who is assimilating nicely into the left coast. Congradulations?
I'd tell my friends, but they'd scarcely believe me. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:59:41 AM
This is God's Country. :contract:
The Bruces would disagree :outback:
I shouldn't get involved with this, but what the hell;
Lettow, you do not in anyway what so ever resemble the "Southern Gentleman", you are actually a rascist prick, with far more in common with a redneck than anyone else.
You are the example of the worst things the South has to offer, Hated instead of Hospitality, Self Righteous, instead of Humility.
You are the thing that makes people hate the South, that is causing the death of South.
If you think the South is what you are, then it deserves to die, and be forgotten.
Thankfully Sir, based on parts of my family, you are wrong.
WTF is this? A southerner jerkfest?
:x
Quote from: Magnus on April 29, 2009, 01:32:10 AM
I shouldn't get involved with this, but what the hell;
Lettow, you do not in anyway what so ever resemble the "Southern Gentleman", you are actually a rascist prick, with far more in common with a redneck than anyone else.
You are the example of the worst things the South has to offer, Hated instead of Hospitality, Self Righteous, instead of Humility.
You are the thing that makes people hate the South, that is causing the death of South.
If you think the South is what you are, then it deserves to die, and be forgotten.
Thankfully Sir, based on parts of my family, you are wrong.
:yes:
Elite southerners were indeed racist, but not at all in the way that Lettuce is. I should know as my mother's family is descended from Virginian and Georgian plantation-owning gentry. When my great uncle inherited the plantation outside of Roanoke, he ended up selling and giving most of the land away to descendants of slaves his ancestors had owned. He attends semi-annually reunions there that include all of the slave descendants as well. They're all quite close. The elite antebellum racism of the south was more like "These negroes are like children and need to be taken care of and provided for" with no malicious intent. I'm not trying to say their behavior was justified, just that I can provide family anecdotes that stand in opposition to what you might read in, say,
Uncle Tom's Cabin.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 29, 2009, 06:50:24 AM
WTF is this? A southerner jerkfest?
:x
There is a new southern porn star, Stonewall Jackoff.
Quote from: Siege on April 28, 2009, 10:05:57 PM
And a hundred american soldiers would wipe their asses with 10 000 regular arab/muslim soldiers.
Not without air support, artillery support and all the other things enjoyed by US troops.
If you could just go on and not try to deprogram our soldiers, that'd be great. :)
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:50:58 AM
While I please don't want you to take me as being on Lettow's side on this debate, but as a fifth generation Ukrainian-Canadian I don't think of myself as "just another white guy"...
Naturally. That's the policy of hyphenated-Canadianism at work. That's why your loyalty (and everyone's loyalty) to Canada is questionable.
Quote from: Caliga on April 29, 2009, 07:21:15 AM
If you could just go on and not try to deprogram our soldiers, that'd be great. :)
Why? They belong to Me.
Siege, your opening post in this thread was well thought out and well written. Thank you.
Mangus, (who, exactly?) I lay no pretensions to being part of the Southern Aristocracy. I come from common folk, of a crude and simpler nature than the tidewater elites of the coastal South.
However, my racism is not as pernicious at languish appear to persistantly believe. What views I do have, I will not apologise for, but they are greatly overstated here.
I am indeed arrogant and self-righteous, and full of hate. They are character flaws for which I apologise- I am working on the last one, but the first I find it hard to disillusion myself with. A llingering ailment, then.
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:50:58 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 29, 2009, 12:46:59 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
And yes, two generations or more is fairly recently. I'd think of a third generation russian immigrant as a russian- you wouldent?
:huh: At what point does he become just another white guy? 200 years later?
While I please don't want you to take me as being on Lettow's side on this debate, but as a fifth generation Ukrainian-Canadian I don't think of myself as "just another white guy"...
you about as white as white can get though.
Quote from: Berkut on April 29, 2009, 10:37:15 AM
Quote from: Barrister on April 29, 2009, 12:50:58 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 29, 2009, 12:46:59 AM
Quote from: Lettow77 on April 29, 2009, 12:45:28 AM
And yes, two generations or more is fairly recently. I'd think of a third generation russian immigrant as a russian- you wouldent?
:huh: At what point does he become just another white guy? 200 years later?
While I please don't want you to take me as being on Lettow's side on this debate, but as a fifth generation Ukrainian-Canadian I don't think of myself as "just another white guy"...
you about as white as white can get though.
I'm practically translucent. :yes:
Great post Siege. :thumbsup:
And thank you languish yet again for an entertaining thread.