The man makes a convincing argument. -_-
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/drink/2011/11/why_you_should_be_drinking_cheap_wine.html
QuoteDrink Cheap Wine
I mean, really cheap.
By Brian Palmer|Posted Wednesday, Nov. 2, 2011, at 6:54 AM ET
Try this experiment: Walk into the nearest wine shop and ask for an "everyday wine" recommendation. Refuse to give a price range, and see what the merchant suggests. My guess is you're out 15 bucks. Critics seem to be pushing this price point as an appropriate range for "everyday wine"—Slate is as guilty as any publication—even though the phrase can't possibly be taken literally. If you and your significant other were to drink five bottles of wine a week, at $15 per bottle, your annual wine outlay would approach $4,000. That's more than the average family spends on groceries.
Granted, few Americans actually drink that much wine—annual consumption is around one bottle per month (PDF) per capita—but perhaps they would if the industry hadn't taught them that truly affordable wine isn't worth drinking. The evidence is right across the Atlantic: In Europe, consumption is 3-to-6 times higher than in the United States. But only the most affluent would spend 11 euros to drink a bottle of wine at home on a Wednesday night. Europeans seem perfectly comfortable cracking open a 1-euro tetra-pak of wine for guests. Germans, for example, pay just $1.79 on average for a bottle of wine.
Not long ago, American wine-buying habits were very similar to the Germans'. In 1995, 59 percent of the wine purchased in the United States sold for less than $3 per bottle. By 2006, controlling for inflation, that share had dropped to 29 percent. Wines over $14 per bottle more than quadrupled their share of the market during the same period. Looking at raw consumption rather than market share, sales of over-$14 wine increased sevenfold. Sales of wines that cost less than $3 per bottle actually declined 28 percent, during a period when overall wine consumption was rapidly increasing.
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There are plenty of reasons to go back to our 1990s habits, and to start using 15 bucks to buy four or five bottles instead of just one. Ernest Gallo, who, along with his brother Julio, popularized wine among the American masses, understood the psychology of wine better than anyone. He used to pour two glasses of wine for potential buyers, telling them that one sold for 5 cents, and the other for 10. According to Gallo, his guinea pigs invariably chose the more expensive option. What they didn't know was that the two wines were exactly the same. Researchers have recently reproduced Gallo's results, proving that our appreciation of a wine depends on how much we think it costs. If you can break yourself of this psychological quirk—or have your spouse lie to you about the cost of your wine—you'll save a small fortune.
You're also likely aware of the piles of studies showing that you can't reliably pick out expensive wines in a blind taste test. Many studies show that laymen actually prefer cheaper wines (PDF). Professional wine critics are quick to point out that they, unlike you and I, can distinguish between high- and low-cost bottles in blinded experiments. Here's the question they can't answer for you: So what? The only thing these "successes" prove is that a small group of people have gotten very good at sniffing out the traits that the wine industry thinks entitle them to more money.
If hints of cassis, subtle earthiness, and jammy notes don't interest you, you are not a lesser person. Wine is not art. There's no reason to believe that aligning your tastes with those of a self-appointed elite will enrich your life, or make you more insightful or sensitive. If wine critics want to spend lavishly on the wine they like, that's great. Leave them to their fun. Be grateful that you can gain just as much pleasure, if not more, without bankrupting yourself.
I'm not without sympathy for the American winemakers who keep wine prices high. Real estate is pricey in California, and some vintners claim they have to charge $20 or more per bottle just to break even. That's a shame, but wine-buying isn't an act of philanthropy. If you can't tell the difference between an expensive wine from a small family vineyard and their cheaper competitors—or you think the cheap stuff is superior—save your money. You are under no obligation to keep vineyards afloat. A little consolidation might be a good thing. Do we really need tiny winemaking estates up and down the West Coast, not to mention Long Island, Michigan, Virginia, and Missouri?
There's also an enormous range in the retail price of a single bottle of wine, which means the $15 bottle you bought at one store might be a $6 bottle elsewhere. A recent study found that a wine selling for $695 in California went for $2,000 in Illinois. The Yellowtail Merlot offered for $4.99 in Buffalo cost more than twice that much in Jersey City. Such discrepancies are due not only to taxes and varying distribution schemes but to individual store owners trying to wring a few more dollars out of clueless consumers. Again, the key here is that higher prices do not reliably reflect quality.
Finally, rest assured that cheap wine in the United States is good, to the extent that the term has any objective meaning. Falling market share over the last 15 years has forced discount vintners to compete with upmarket brands, and modern technology has enabled them to crank out consistent wines, case after case. So, if you win your $3 gamble on the first bottle, you know you'll like the next. And, in a sense, we have an advantage over Europe, since our discount offerings are usually a notch better. European bargain wines can be hit or miss, because they're made by cooperatives that sometimes have outdated equipment, poor inventory management, and even substandard sanitation practices. Charles Shaw and the best American box wines rarely have such problems.
You're probably hoping for some recommendations. You don't need them. Reviews and recommendations are great for cars or televisions or overpriced wines, because bad decisions are expensive. If you hate your cheap bottle of wine, just uncork another.
Thanks to Michael Veseth, author of Wine Wars: The Curse of the Blue Nun, the Miracle of Two Buck Chuck, and the Revenge of the Terroirists.
I disagree. I wanted to be a big fan of buying magnum bottles...and sometimes am, but they aren't really that good. More like slightly flavored water.
On a side note, my birthday inspired me to buy actual champagne.
Brian Palmer can go jump off a cliff.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 03, 2011, 05:48:48 PM
Brian Palmer can go jump off a cliff.
Sounds like sour grapes to me.
/mongers
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 03, 2011, 05:52:53 PM
Sounds like sour grapes to me.
/mongers
Wining about sour grapes? That's vintage Languish for you!
Quote from: grumbler on November 03, 2011, 06:28:23 PMWining about sour grapes? That's vintage Languish for you!
Put a cork in it, grumbler!
punners must suffer.
I think what you meant to write was: punners must sulphur.
Quote from: HVC on November 03, 2011, 07:13:25 PM
punners must suffer.
So far, you're the only one champaigning against it.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on November 03, 2011, 08:36:08 PM
Quote from: HVC on November 03, 2011, 07:13:25 PM
punners must suffer.
So far, you're the only one champaigning against it.
Given what we know about Timmay, I think you really meant sparkling.
Cheap wine can be....wait for it.....DiVine.
$3?
eww, I wouldn't go that cheap. That cheap...and you're talking the canned crap. Even mixed with coke its ickyness seeps through.
$7 though is totally acceptable.
Author misses the point. Americans drink wine not for recreation but to show off their affluence and class.
You can not buy a bottle of wine for $3 in Canada. The cheapest I can think of is ~$7-8.
I did my own research tonight *burp*, and the cheapest Merlot in my neighborhood liquor store was Gallo wine at about $6.50. It was OK. *burp*
I predict that JR will ragequit when he sees this thread.
I bet JR can actually taste the difference.
Here in NC, I don't think that I've ever seen a bottle of wine for as little as $3--heck, I think the sin tax on it here is almost that much by itself.
Back when I was in WV, there were some wines you could get for $3, but they were just rotgut, crap you wouldn't want to drink unless you just wanted to get drunk. There were some decent wines available in the $6-$10 range, though.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 03, 2011, 10:30:41 PM
I bet JR can actually taste the difference.
I am pretty sure everyone can taste the difference between a good bottle of wine and a bad bottle. Its just that not everyone thinks the bad bottle is bad enough not to drink. The article says that not everyone can identify the expensive bottle and this is probably true given that the cost of the bottle is not always a good indicator of its quality.
The average American family spends less than $4,000 pa on groceries?
You can't buy wine that cheap in teh UK. You can just about get a £3 bottle of wine. Generally I agree though. There are plenty of £5 bottles of wine which are as good as £10 bottles, particularly if you like big bold flavours rather than complexity.
Quote from: Gups on November 04, 2011, 04:25:06 AM
The average American family spends less than $4,000 pa on groceries?
You can't buy wine that cheap in teh UK. You can just about get a £3 bottle of wine. Generally I agree though. There are plenty of £5 bottles of wine which are as good as £10 bottles, particularly if you like big bold flavours rather than complexity.
That is true. However, the thread title by Timmy just shows that he is a retard.
Tax to curb drinking means the days of decent £3.99 wine are over for the UK :(
I tend to go to the supermarket French reds section and see what's got 50% off and is now £5 to £6. I seldom get a duff bottle. And the corner shop run by Pakistanis has decent plonk for £5.99, or six large cans of beer for £5, the value of which is difficult to communicate to countries blessed wit cheap booze. Suffice to say, a round of two pints of average lager will cost you £7 in a suburban pub these days :o
Quote from: Brazen on November 04, 2011, 05:05:48 AM
Tax to curb drinking means the days of decent £3.99 wine are over for the UK :(
I tend to go to the supermarket French reds section and see what's got 50% off and is now £5 to £6. I seldom get a duff bottle. And the corner shop run by Pakistanis has decent plonk for £5.99, or six large cans of beer for £5, the value of which is difficult to communicate to countries blessed wit cheap booze. Suffice to say, a round of two pints of average lager will cost you £7 in a suburban pub these days :o
I may be wrong, but I'd assume wine is the relatively low risk when it comes to excessive drinking - beer and hard liquor should be the one targetted with such tax.
US$3 a bottle? When we shop for wine for cooking, I notice that most bottles here cost in the region of US$20-30. The cheapest ones are US$10 each.
No, there is no tax on wine in HK. I know because the government specifically abolished the wine tax a few years ago so that HK can become the wine hub of China.
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 06:02:34 AM
I may be wrong, but I'd assume wine is the relatively low risk when it comes to excessive drinking - beer and hard liquor should be the one targetted with such tax.
No, excess drinking is growing mostly in the middle classes who think nothing about downing a bottle with dinner most nights of the week.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2011, 11:52:09 PM
I am pretty sure everyone can taste the difference between a good bottle of wine and a bad bottle. Its just that not everyone thinks the bad bottle is bad enough not to drink. The article says that not everyone can identify the expensive bottle and this is probably true given that the cost of the bottle is not always a good indicator of its quality.
Yes, I agree with this. Trader Joe's sells a bottle of wine they call "Two Buck Chuck" (except I think it costs $2.50 now) and it's very drinkable. But certainly I can tell it's not as good as say a $20 bottle. That said, I had an $800 bottle of wine once and it didn't taste any better than say a $30-40 bottle to me. I don't drink wine all that often, though, so to someone like say JR I bet there'd be a difference.
I can't tell the difference.
Quote from: Caliga on November 04, 2011, 06:32:42 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2011, 11:52:09 PM
I am pretty sure everyone can taste the difference between a good bottle of wine and a bad bottle. Its just that not everyone thinks the bad bottle is bad enough not to drink. The article says that not everyone can identify the expensive bottle and this is probably true given that the cost of the bottle is not always a good indicator of its quality.
Yes, I agree with this. Trader Joe's sells a bottle of wine they call "Two Buck Chuck" (except I think it costs $2.50 now) and it's very drinkable. But certainly I can tell it's not as good as say a $20 bottle. That said, I had an $800 bottle of wine once and it didn't taste any better than say a $30-40 bottle to me. I don't drink wine all that often, though, so to someone like say JR I bet there'd be a difference.
Placebo is a powerful effect.
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 06:02:34 AM
Quote from: Brazen on November 04, 2011, 05:05:48 AM
Tax to curb drinking means the days of decent £3.99 wine are over for the UK :(
I tend to go to the supermarket French reds section and see what's got 50% off and is now £5 to £6. I seldom get a duff bottle. And the corner shop run by Pakistanis has decent plonk for £5.99, or six large cans of beer for £5, the value of which is difficult to communicate to countries blessed wit cheap booze. Suffice to say, a round of two pints of average lager will cost you £7 in a suburban pub these days :o
I may be wrong, but I'd assume wine is the relatively low risk when it comes to excessive drinking - beer and hard liquor should be the one targetted with such tax.
In the US we refer to our homeless/very marginal drunks as "winos." I don't know if you are right on that.
Quote from: Caliga on November 04, 2011, 06:32:42 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2011, 11:52:09 PM
I am pretty sure everyone can taste the difference between a good bottle of wine and a bad bottle. Its just that not everyone thinks the bad bottle is bad enough not to drink. The article says that not everyone can identify the expensive bottle and this is probably true given that the cost of the bottle is not always a good indicator of its quality.
Yes, I agree with this. Trader Joe's sells a bottle of wine they call "Two Buck Chuck" (except I think it costs $2.50 now) and it's very drinkable. But certainly I can tell it's not as good as say a $20 bottle. That said, I had an $800 bottle of wine once and it didn't taste any better than say a $30-40 bottle to me. I don't drink wine all that often, though, so to someone like say JR I bet there'd be a difference.
I think the 2 buck chuck is dreadful. I'm with CC that the cheap stuff is bad, and problems in identifying price points are more about uneven quality with more expensive wines.
I made the mistake, one Christmas, of buying wine a category or two more expensive than my usual tipple............some were fine others rather poor, but on average they were no better than if I'd stuck with the wines I knew at a much lower price. At the £8-£12 level I know what I like, move into the £15-£25 area and I have no idea.
Quote from: Caliga on November 04, 2011, 06:32:42 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2011, 11:52:09 PM
I am pretty sure everyone can taste the difference between a good bottle of wine and a bad bottle. Its just that not everyone thinks the bad bottle is bad enough not to drink. The article says that not everyone can identify the expensive bottle and this is probably true given that the cost of the bottle is not always a good indicator of its quality.
Yes, I agree with this. Trader Joe's sells a bottle of wine they call "Two Buck Chuck" (except I think it costs $2.50 now) and it's very drinkable. But certainly I can tell it's not as good as say a $20 bottle. That said, I had an $800 bottle of wine once and it didn't taste any better than say a $30-40 bottle to me. I don't drink wine all that often, though, so to someone like say JR I bet there'd be a difference.
I bet "Two Buck Chuck" goes a treat with gas station food. ;)
I'm no wine snob by any stretch, but even I can tell there is a difference between qualities of wines. I once for Christmas got a nice reserve Chianti, $200-ish, and it was marvellous.
That said, I don't know about $3 wine, but you could do well with a nice $15-$25 wine. Anything else is excessive.
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 08:22:58 AM
Quote from: Caliga on November 04, 2011, 06:32:42 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 03, 2011, 11:52:09 PM
I am pretty sure everyone can taste the difference between a good bottle of wine and a bad bottle. Its just that not everyone thinks the bad bottle is bad enough not to drink. The article says that not everyone can identify the expensive bottle and this is probably true given that the cost of the bottle is not always a good indicator of its quality.
Yes, I agree with this. Trader Joe's sells a bottle of wine they call "Two Buck Chuck" (except I think it costs $2.50 now) and it's very drinkable. But certainly I can tell it's not as good as say a $20 bottle. That said, I had an $800 bottle of wine once and it didn't taste any better than say a $30-40 bottle to me. I don't drink wine all that often, though, so to someone like say JR I bet there'd be a difference.
I bet "Two Buck Chuck" goes a treat with gas station food. ;)
That's also the nick name of the tranny hooker behind the gas station :D
I don't think I've ever had really expensive wine so I've no idea. My wine buying's basically the same as Brazen. I don't think you can get £3 bottles or boxes of wine in the UK.
Quote from: Martinus on November 04, 2011, 04:33:50 AM
Quote from: Gups on November 04, 2011, 04:25:06 AM
The average American family spends less than $4,000 pa on groceries?
You can't buy wine that cheap in teh UK. You can just about get a £3 bottle of wine. Generally I agree though. There are plenty of £5 bottles of wine which are as good as £10 bottles, particularly if you like big bold flavours rather than complexity.
That is true. However, the thread title by Timmy just shows that he is a retard.
I didn't come up with that title, that's what the Link was titled on the Slate homepage.
Quote from: Gups on November 04, 2011, 04:25:06 AM
The average American family spends less than $4,000 pa on groceries?
Possibly. One of the real differences I can remember facing when I moved to, and then from, England was the vastly more expensive groceries there. Not even the decline in quality could match the sticker shock.
QuoteYou can't buy wine that cheap in teh UK. You can just about get a £3 bottle of wine. Generally I agree though. There are plenty of £5 bottles of wine which are as good as £10 bottles, particularly if you like big bold flavours rather than complexity.
You probably can't get any wine that cheap in the US unless it is crap, or you buy it in case lots from a discounter. There used to be a chain in Virginia called Total Beverage (not related to the existing "Total Wine" chain) that sold cases of decent wine for around $40... not much more than $3 a bottle. This was the same wine you paid $10 a bottle for in the grocery store, or $15 for in the state-run ABC store.
Quote from: Neil on November 03, 2011, 10:20:13 PM
I predict that JR will ragequit when he sees this thread.
Not really. :)
There are a couple of stupid things in the article but that is to be expected in a piece of this sort where part of the aim is try to be provocative.
To the extent the main point is that average Joes who just want to have a bottle every now and then don't need to spend $15 or more, I totally agree. There are plenty of sub $10 that are quite good and while 2 buck chuck would not be a personal recommendation, it is a correct wine suitable for swilling.
Quote from: grumbler on November 04, 2011, 09:32:43 AM
Not even the decline in quality could match the sticker shock.
:pinch:
I know the US is cheaper than the UK - a good rule of thumb is just to assume parity between sterling and the dollar, but I can't imagine the average weekly supermarket shop is $77 for a family (assuming that means a couple and at lease one kid).
Quote from: Caliga on November 04, 2011, 06:32:42 AM
Yes, I agree with this. Trader Joe's sells a bottle of wine they call "Two Buck Chuck" (except I think it costs $2.50 now) and it's very drinkable. But certainly I can tell it's not as good as say a $20 bottle. That said, I had an $800 bottle of wine once and it didn't taste any better than say a $30-40 bottle to me. I don't drink wine all that often, though, so to someone like say JR I bet there'd be a difference.
The last time this issue came up, I agreed that price is not a particularly good indicator of wine quality. Price reflects supply and demand, not intrinsic quality. Quality has very little connection to supply, other than through the fact that gunning for very high yields tends to harm quality. Quality has some effect on demand, but there are other big contributors such as the cachet of the name or provenance, advertising/maketing, etc. For example, if Lafite has an off year, it will still sell for hundreds of dollars if for no other reason so that Chinese businessman can give each other gifts of an authentic Lafite. Certain names in Burgundy will command attention (e.g. from the restaurant trade) even if the individual producer is second rate.
Also - a major flaw in these studies make claims about wine preferences in relation to price is that they ignore the time element. Many expensive wines are designed to be cellared for years or even decades. If you drink them on or shortly after release, they may taste bitter, harsh or unpleasant to a normal person. A professional critic or taster who tastes barrel samples on a regular basis may be able to discern the underlying potential of the wine - this (in theory) is an acquired skill akin to that of a whiskey blender. But a normal person, even one with experience in wine drinking, is likely to just experience it as unpleasant. That may explain at least part of the divergence in "expert" and "layman" perception of certain expensive wines.
3$ might buy you a beer, but no way I can find a wine bottle for such a price.
Cheapest I saw was 7-8$, and that isn't for drinking, only for cooking, and barely.
Yes, wine price is subjective. Especially in a state controlled monopoly on wine sales, you never get the real price and they use scams to pick more money out of our pocket witht their kickback system.
But anyway, I find, that generally speaking, wines seeling between 16$-35$ are great. Divide by 2 for US prices. South American wines are good and cheap. Australian wines are fucking pricey here, Californians in the middle of the pack. I avoid most european wines, unless I eat fish.
Quote from: Gups on November 04, 2011, 09:46:58 AM
I know the US is cheaper than the UK - a good rule of thumb is just to assume parity between sterling and the dollar, but I can't imagine the average weekly supermarket shop is $77 for a family (assuming that means a couple and at lease one kid).
It is true. The average American family eats most meals at McDonalds, which keeps down the grocery bill. :P
Quote from: Gups on November 04, 2011, 09:46:58 AM
I know the US is cheaper than the UK - a good rule of thumb is just to assume parity between sterling and the dollar, but I can't imagine the average weekly supermarket shop is $77 for a family (assuming that means a couple and at lease one kid).
I think that is really low too. I would think $10k would be more reasonable.
Three dollar wine does not exist in metro Boston. Maybe the few Trader Joe's with special authority to sell beer and wine carry that corny two buck Chuck shit, but I've never seen it. $4.95 for a 750ml bottle of Crane Lake is the default bottom in my local liquor stores. Or some "buy 3 Yellowtail 1.5l bottles for 20 bucks" offer.
3$ (or €) at the supermarket is pretty doable for a drinkable local Austrian wine, though I'd go with 6-10 € for a good (rather than decent) product.
Quote from: HVC on November 04, 2011, 08:36:22 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 08:22:58 AM
I bet "Two Buck Chuck" goes a treat with gas station food. ;)
That's also the nick name of the tranny hooker behind the gas station :D
I'm not going to ask how you know that ... :P
Anyway, I'd avoid on principle any alcoholic beverage whose marketing name is a euphemism for "vomit". :D
Around here, $12 will get you a very decent bottle of wine.
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 10:11:11 AM
Quote from: HVC on November 04, 2011, 08:36:22 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 08:22:58 AM
I bet "Two Buck Chuck" goes a treat with gas station food. ;)
That's also the nick name of the tranny hooker behind the gas station :D
I'm not going to ask how you know that ... :P
all i'm gonna say is that these are tough times :lol:
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 04, 2011, 08:56:47 AM
I don't think I've ever had really expensive wine so I've no idea. My wine buying's basically the same as Brazen. I don't think you can get £3 bottles or boxes of wine in the UK.
Sure you can. All the supermarkets sell at least a few £3 bottles of wine. Once a flat tax of £1 something, the price of the bottle, distribution and the retail cut have been added in, the producer is probably getting about 5p for the wine, so expectations should be lowered accordingly.
Quote from: Gups on November 04, 2011, 10:18:03 AMSure you can. All the supermarkets sell at least a few £3 bottles of wine. Once a flat tax of £1 something, the price of the bottle, distribution and the retail cut have been added in, the producer is probably getting about 5p for the wine, so expectations should be lowered accordingly.
I've never noticed it then. I always think those prices are the sort you get for plastic cartons of wine in France or Spain. The lowest price I thought you'd get in the UK would be around £5.
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 10:12:10 AM
Around here, $12 will get you a very decent bottle of wine.
Yeah, the local production in Ontario is very inexpensive compared to BC.
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 04, 2011, 11:00:11 AM
Quote from: Gups on November 04, 2011, 10:18:03 AMSure you can. All the supermarkets sell at least a few £3 bottles of wine. Once a flat tax of £1 something, the price of the bottle, distribution and the retail cut have been added in, the producer is probably getting about 5p for the wine, so expectations should be lowered accordingly.
I've never noticed it then. I always think those prices are the sort you get for plastic cartons of wine in France or Spain. The lowest price I thought you'd get in the UK would be around £5.
Well I stand corrected. I went onto Tesco's online shop to prove Gups wrong and there's a Bulgarian Merlot for £2.99, an Aussie red at £3.15 and a Montepulciano for £3.19. There's even a quaffable looking Cotes du Rhone at £3.56.
Perhaps Asda, Morrisons or (shudder) LIDL could beat even these.
Lidl do (or used to do) a £20 6 bottle case which even includes a champagne.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/money/article1920420.ece
There are some completely serviceable table wines in the $10-20 range. Additionally, with reds, decanting the wine through an aerator can turn a $10 bottle of wine into a $20-30 bottle. I'm not sure I've ever had a sub-$5 bottle of wine that I liked. I agree with others in the thread that the issue of assessing value is more problematic at the higher end of the range, not the lower.
Quote from: fahdiz on November 04, 2011, 12:30:36 PM
There are some completely serviceable table wines in the $10-20 range. Additionally, with reds, decanting the wine through an aerator can turn a $10 bottle of wine into a $20-30 bottle. I'm not sure I've ever had a sub-$5 bottle of wine that I liked. I agree with others in the thread that the issue of assessing value is more problematic at the higher end of the range, not the lower.
Way I'd put it is that below a certain price theshold, chances are the wine will be inferior or very rough tasting ... but that threshold is not very high. A $12 bottle can easily be as good to the average idiot like myself as a $40 bottle or an $80 bottle, but chances are good on average I can tell the difference between a $12 bottle and a $6 one.
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 12:36:03 PM
Way I'd put it is that below a certain price theshold, chances are the wine will be inferior or very rough tasting ... but that threshold is not very high. A $12 bottle can easily be as good to the average idiot like myself as a $40 bottle or an $80 bottle, but chances are good on average I can tell the difference between a $12 bottle and a $6 one.
It's not even an indicator of "average idiotness". ( :D ) Some $40 wines are quite simply overpriced.
Quote from: fahdiz on November 04, 2011, 12:40:55 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 12:36:03 PM
Way I'd put it is that below a certain price theshold, chances are the wine will be inferior or very rough tasting ... but that threshold is not very high. A $12 bottle can easily be as good to the average idiot like myself as a $40 bottle or an $80 bottle, but chances are good on average I can tell the difference between a $12 bottle and a $6 one.
It's not even an indicator of "average idiotness". ( :D ) Some $40 wines are quite simply overpriced.
Too true.
At $40 and up you are usually either dealing with a wines from a delimited geographical area where there is therefore restricted supply; or with a wine where the producer is using very costly techniques like "tri" of the grapes by hand on a sorting table; and/or where the price is being driven by particularly effective marketing.
Whether what you get is fair value is a subjective judgment of the beholder. If you want a wine that is like Chablis for example, there aren't very many choices outside of Chablis, and despite recent expansion, there is only so much land under vine in Chablis.
Not so much here JR. It is not uncommon for local producers to price their wine in the 30-40 dollar range. Way overpriced.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 01:13:35 PM
Not so much here JR. It is not uncommon for local producers to price their wine in the 30-40 dollar range. Way overpriced.
My knowledge of Canadian wine basically begins and ends with the Ontario icewines. (and icewine tends to have higher production costs and lower yields for obvious reasons). I am aware there is production in BC but I have never tried any. There is a dynamic in some local wine markets whereby prices get bid up beyond what the quality level would normally support simply because of physical proximity to affluent consumers who are willing to pay premiums for a local, "artisanal" product - this can be seen with respect to wine production in Long Island (NY).
Quote from: fahdiz on November 04, 2011, 12:40:55 PM
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 12:36:03 PM
Way I'd put it is that below a certain price theshold, chances are the wine will be inferior or very rough tasting ... but that threshold is not very high. A $12 bottle can easily be as good to the average idiot like myself as a $40 bottle or an $80 bottle, but chances are good on average I can tell the difference between a $12 bottle and a $6 one.
It's not even an indicator of "average idiotness". ( :D ) Some $40 wines are quite simply overpriced.
Heh, I was throwing in some self-deprication. ;) I make no pretence to having a cultivated palate, so to my taste indeed some of the $40 product is likely to be overpriced ... perhaps some real expert can tell the difference, but I can't. Hence, except for odd products like icewine, I'm reluctant to spend more than (say) $18 for a bottle.
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 12:36:03 PM
Way I'd put it is that below a certain price theshold, chances are the wine will be inferior or very rough tasting ... but that threshold is not very high. A $12 bottle can easily be as good to the average idiot like myself as a $40 bottle or an $80 bottle, but chances are good on average I can tell the difference between a $12 bottle and a $6 one.
Never gone above 50$ myself, but with wines, it really depends on what type of wines you like more than the price. I like poutine as much as the next guy, but 12$ wine is over-rated for this kind of meal :P
Quote from: Gups on November 04, 2011, 09:46:58 AM
I know the US is cheaper than the UK - a good rule of thumb is just to assume parity between sterling and the dollar, but I can't imagine the average weekly supermarket shop is $77 for a family (assuming that means a couple and at lease one kid).
We are talking "household" here, so it does not average even three people. It was 2.6 some years ago; might be 2.5 by now.
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 01:22:37 PM
Heh, I was throwing in some self-deprication. ;) I make no pretence to having a cultivated palate, so to my taste indeed some of the $40 product is likely to be overpriced ... perhaps some real expert can tell the difference, but I can't. Hence, except for odd products like icewine, I'm reluctant to spend more than (say) $18 for a bottle.
2000$ strollers, 12$ wine. Something is wrong here. :P
Seriously, you've hilighted what is most important here: your tastes, not those of an expert.
Of course, I'm considered a wine snob by my friends because I refuse to drink some products of inferior quality. I just don't like being sick. But I know what I like, and it ain't about price.
Quote from: grumbler on November 04, 2011, 01:39:59 PM
Quote from: Gups on November 04, 2011, 09:46:58 AM
I know the US is cheaper than the UK - a good rule of thumb is just to assume parity between sterling and the dollar, but I can't imagine the average weekly supermarket shop is $77 for a family (assuming that means a couple and at lease one kid).
We are talking "household" here, so it does not average even three people. It was 2.6 some years ago; might be 2.5 by now.
Most people don't live with one other person and a torso.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2011, 01:18:32 PM
I am aware there is production in BC but I have never tried any. There is a dynamic in some local wine markets whereby prices get bid up beyond what the quality level would normally support simply because of physical proximity to affluent consumers who are willing to pay premiums for a local, "artisanal" product - this can be seen with respect to wine production in Long Island (NY).
That is effectively what has happened here. The local restaurant industry makes a point of serving BC wines and it has become a status symbol to have a good private supply on hand. As a result some of my favourites have become quite pricey.
If you ever want to try a BC wine I recommend you start with a bottle of Notte Bene http://www.notabenewine.com/ although it might be hard to impossible to get.
Quote from: viper37 on November 04, 2011, 01:41:53 PM
I'm considered a wine snob by my friends because I refuse to drink some products of inferior quality. I just don't like being sick. But I know what I like, and it ain't about price.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Razgovory on November 04, 2011, 01:45:23 PM
Most people don't live with one other person and a torso.
Sigh.
Been going to wineries in California for years. One distinct trend I have seen is that places I used to go years ago that had been making great wine become more popular and then get more expensive. As that happens, the quality of the wine either plateaus or declines. Having to pay for a tasting is a big warning sign. Almost all of Napa and Sonoma have gone that way. You can still get great wine there, but it's not as cost effective as finding great wine in lesser known wineries in Placerville, Lodi, San Luis Obispo or Livermore. The trick is finding them as they are getting really good at making the product but before they blow up.
I agree MiM. The difficulty here is that the number of producers is quite low (the viable land area for producing good wine here is limited) and so it is almost impossible to find good small inexpensive producers.
If I lived in California I would make it my weekend sport to go out and find such places.
If your income/consumption ratio is so poor that you have to worry about finding a good price then maybe you are an alcoholic or worse working class.
So how about some tips on good, relatively inexpensive wines?
Quote from: The Brain on November 04, 2011, 03:08:49 PM
If your income/consumption ratio is so poor that you have to worry about finding a good price then maybe you are an alcoholic or worse working class.
Its all about finding good quality. If I could be assured that price scaled with in direct relation with quality then I wouldnt worry about it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 03:12:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 04, 2011, 03:08:49 PM
If your income/consumption ratio is so poor that you have to worry about finding a good price then maybe you are an alcoholic or worse working class.
Its all about finding good quality. If I could be assured that price scaled with in direct relation with quality then I wouldnt worry about it.
Sounds to me that it's about finding good value. Are you sure you're not a poor?
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2011, 03:09:33 PM
So how about some tips on good, relatively inexpensive wines?
For red, beaujolais. But NOT the nouveau.
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2011, 03:09:33 PM
So how about some tips on good, relatively inexpensive wines?
Kettle Valley is relatively inexpensive for BC wines while still turning out nice product. Plus its a nice place to visit if you are the Naramata area.
http://www.kettlevalleywinery.com/scms.asp?node=50
Another good trick if you are travelling through some smaller communities is to visit the governement liquor stores. They usually have some really nice wines sitting around (often for years) that have never sold because the local population buys beer. And sometimes you can find them Marked Down even though their value has increased substantially while the store has cellared it for you. But being a government liquor store they just look at it as getting rid of old inventory. Even if it is not marked down you will still be able to buy it at the original price it was listed for when it entered the inventory of the store.
Quote from: The Brain on November 04, 2011, 03:14:36 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 03:12:55 PM
Quote from: The Brain on November 04, 2011, 03:08:49 PM
If your income/consumption ratio is so poor that you have to worry about finding a good price then maybe you are an alcoholic or worse working class.
Its all about finding good quality. If I could be assured that price scaled with in direct relation with quality then I wouldnt worry about it.
Sounds to me that it's about finding good value. Are you sure you're not a poor?
If I do not have good wine I consider myself poor indeed.
I always wondered why people wanted to acquire taste for certain expensive things. I would think that acquiring a lack of taste for certain things would be a much more practical hobby to pick up.
Quote from: DGuller on November 04, 2011, 03:21:10 PM
I always wondered why people wanted to acquire taste for certain expensive things. I would think that acquiring a lack of taste for certain things would be a much more practical hobby to pick up.
And at that point what would make life worth living?
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 03:22:28 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 04, 2011, 03:21:10 PM
I always wondered why people wanted to acquire taste for certain expensive things. I would think that acquiring a lack of taste for certain things would be a much more practical hobby to pick up.
And at that point what would make life worth living?
The bottles/boxes of wine that you can buy in much greater quantities.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 03:22:28 PM
And at that point what would make life worth living?
Having expensive tastes is what makes life worth living?
Quote from: fahdiz on November 04, 2011, 03:24:59 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 03:22:28 PM
And at that point what would make life worth living?
Having expensive tastes is what makes life worth living?
Having dulled taste would make life less worth living. You are falling into the expense=quality trap.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 03:20:01 PM
Kettle Valley is relatively inexpensive for BC wines while still turning out nice product. Plus its a nice place to visit if you are the Naramata area.
Are wines from Washington state commonly available in BC? Because there are lots of good deals coming out of there at every price point. At the low end, Columbia Crest is quite reliable (and there is no lack of supply).
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 03:26:07 PM
Having dulled taste would make life less worth living. You are falling into the expense=quality trap.
I'm not falling into any trap. :mellow: I asked a question based on your question.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 04, 2011, 03:01:47 PM
Been going to wineries in California for years. One distinct trend I have seen is that places I used to go years ago that had been making great wine become more popular and then get more expensive. As that happens, the quality of the wine either plateaus or declines. Having to pay for a tasting is a big warning sign. Almost all of Napa and Sonoma have gone that way. You can still get great wine there, but it's not as cost effective as finding great wine in lesser known wineries in Placerville, Lodi, San Luis Obispo or Livermore. The trick is finding them as they are getting really good at making the product but before they blow up.
I did a wine tasting driving tour of the Niagara region when my brother and his wife were visiting (my wife kindly agreed to be the designated non-tasting driver).
What was hilarious, was that the cost of a tasting increased in direct purportion to the proximity of Niagara-On-Thr-Lake -- tastings in the furthest wineries were pretty nominal (50 cents a tasting); as you got closer, they went up to 75 cents, then $1 in Jordan, and then $2 near the town itself ... needless to say, this had no relation whatsoever to quality!
I picked up some nice wines that day, including some oddities like mead royale (which I very much liked - it is very sweet, but not as much so as icewine) from Rosewood Estates.
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 03:40:51 PM
I did a wine tasting driving tour of the Niagara region when my brother and his wife were visiting (my wife kindly agreed to be the designated non-tasting driver).
You didn't spit??!?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 04, 2011, 03:27:00 PM
Are wines from Washington state commonly available in BC? Because there are lots of good deals coming out of there at every price point. At the low end, Columbia Crest is quite reliable (and there is no lack of supply).
Washington State wines (as with all US wines) are hard to purchase here due to some very archaic liquor importation laws. Whenever I make it down to Seattle I stock up. I will look for Columbia Crest next chance I get.
Quote from: fahdiz on November 04, 2011, 03:30:56 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 03:26:07 PM
Having dulled taste would make life less worth living. You are falling into the expense=quality trap.
I'm not falling into any trap. :mellow: I asked a question based on your question.
You have fallen into the trap of thinking you are not already in a trap.
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 03:58:37 PM
You have fallen into the trap of thinking you are not already in a trap.
Admiral Ackbar's going to be pissed at me. :(
Quote from: fahdiz on November 04, 2011, 04:04:12 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 03:58:37 PM
You have fallen into the trap of thinking you are not already in a trap.
Admiral Ackbar's going to be pissed at me. :(
I was hoping you would post the pic that goes with "Its a Trap!"
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 04:10:05 PM
I was hoping you would post the pic that goes with "Its a Trap!"
Wouldn't "It's a Tap" be more apropriate?
Quote from: Malthus on November 04, 2011, 04:55:06 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on November 04, 2011, 04:10:05 PM
I was hoping you would post the pic that goes with "Its a Trap!"
Wouldn't "It's a Tap" be more apropriate?
Only if this was a beer thread :P
Quote from: Jacob on November 04, 2011, 03:09:33 PM
So how about some tips on good, relatively inexpensive wines?
I think Citra Montepulciano d'Abruzzo is a very good, inexpensive Italian red.