The story told by PDH about his grandfather here (http://languish.org/forums/index.php?topic=5928.0) got me thinking (didn't want to start a discussion there, for obvious reasons).
While I found it cool, I started imagining myself honoring a friend that way (or in a similar manner) and thought that I would do it, but there would always be a sense of auto-irony/postmodernist critique lingering somewhere in my mind about doing something so seemingly irrational. Or would there?
Is our generation capable of doing something that is bona fide "straight face" pathos-filled and not make it at least to an extent ironic? Or perhaps it has always been ironic and a case of "fake it until you make it" approach from our ancestors?
Discuss.
You're a dickhead. And there's nothing auto-ironical about that.
Where is the pathos in PDH's story?
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 05:17:03 AM
The story told by PDH about his grandfather here (http://languish.org/forums/index.php?topic=5928.0) got me thinking (didn't want to start a discussion there, for obvious reasons).
While I found it cool, I started imagining myself honoring a friend that way (or in a similar manner) and thought that I would do it, but there would always be a sense of auto-irony/postmodernist critique lingering somewhere in my mind about doing something so seemingly irrational. Or would there?
Is our generation capable of doing something that is bona fide "straight face" pathos-filled and not make it at least to an extent ironic? Or perhaps it has always been ironic and a case of "fake it until you make it" approach from our ancestors?
Discuss.
WTF are you on about?
Pitiful.
if i understood you correctly (i don't think you worded it very well), then it depends on the person and circumstances. some grieve more than others, and would find such acts fitting. in other cases, it could depend on the connection those have with the deceased. if they were very close with the person, or they shared a bond (military service, for example), or if it fell in line with a sort of tradition, then the act could be received positively in an un-ironic way
i take it you haven't experienced something like this before, marty? maybe that's why you feel this way, through imagining the act you cannot have the full appreciation of it without the emotional aspect present. or maybe you'd still find it silly if it did happen to you, again, it depends on the individual
It's like dancing. Do it in your bedroom and you are fatty light-sabre dude.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FipvUl.jpg&hash=a0580a8bbde358b98db6e8f970d16e1892bf397f)
I've raised a monument to my grandfather - it is hidden in an old campsite of ours in the wilderness of northern Quebec, so it isn't really visible to anyone unless they stumble on it by chance. Somehow, that always seemed right to me.
Here's a pic of it (and of my son, named after my grandfather, looking at it):
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy176%2Fmalthusmalthus%2FVacation%2FStawberryIsland%2FDsc02128.jpg&hash=05d080c7ffb28840bcba36836c21a79c4154dc15)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy176%2Fmalthusmalthus%2FVacation%2FStawberryIsland%2FDsc02125.jpg&hash=34020f2df7ed6806703986b49116d0c3756c3c1e)
I actually understand Mart's question, it is the question of the outsider unable to understand the shared emotion of the ritual group. In the case of this ritual, there was no irony (needed or wanted, thus not present) felt by the group that was bonded in shared memory of one who had passed on. To an impressionable 11 year old, this impacted to a great extent.
The key is the emotion in the ritual, something which is needed if it is done properly. Any self-referencial post-modern blase attitude is not for a participant - if they feel this they are basically defined as not part of the group. The emotion (here in a communitas-like moment) precludes the norms of day to day reaction. The closeness, in effect, creates a group.
I would guess, Mart, you have not felt this because you have not been in such a ritual situation.
I understood Marty's post better than I did Peedy's. :huh:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2011, 08:53:22 AM
I understood Marty's post better than I did Peedy's. :huh:
Outsider
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 05:17:03 AM
Is our generation capable of doing something that is bona fide "straight face" pathos-filled and not make it at least to an extent ironic? Or perhaps it has always been ironic and a case of "fake it until you make it" approach from our ancestors?
Did we not do this in the very thread you are referencing?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2011, 08:53:22 AM
I understood Marty's post better than I did Peedy's. :huh:
I don't often agree with Yi, because most of the time he's dead wrong, but I agree with him here. :yes:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2011, 08:53:22 AM
I understood Marty's post better than I did Peedy's. :huh:
PDH is pretty straight forward there. What's difficult about it?
None of it made sense except all of it.
Quote from: PDH on September 13, 2011, 08:48:02 AM
I actually understand Mart's question, it is the question of the outsider unable to understand the shared emotion of the ritual group. In the case of this ritual, there was no irony (needed or wanted, thus not present) felt by the group that was bonded in shared memory of one who had passed on. To an impressionable 11 year old, this impacted to a great extent.
The key is the emotion in the ritual, something which is needed if it is done properly. Any self-referencial post-modern blase attitude is not for a participant - if they feel this they are basically defined as not part of the group. The emotion (here in a communitas-like moment) precludes the norms of day to day reaction. The closeness, in effect, creates a group.
I would guess, Mart, you have not felt this because you have not been in such a ritual situation.
Yeah I understand that (btw, thanks for taking time to understand my post rather than responding with a troll, like so many others).
I am just wondering if our generation(s) is not in the position of being a "permanent outsider" because we live in post-deconstructionist times.
Now, I understand a power of a ritual - and I am capable of being genuinely moved by it. This can be anything - from something as poignant as a friend's funeral (a catholic ceremony, no less, which is not "my community" but I was moved by it) to something as seemingly flippant as a gay pride parade (a modern day carnivale, which also has its place). But there is always the "deconstructionist censor" in the back of my head - always recognizing that I am moved on the emotional level, but deconstructing the ritual at the rational level.
My question is - is this (i) me being a sociopath, (ii) our generation being a bunch of postmodernist cynics, or (iii) people have always done that but didn't actually say that out loud before in fear of being ostracized?
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:38:28 AM
I am just wondering if our generation(s) is not in the position of being a "permanent outsider" because we live in post-deconstructionist times.
I guess my experience of post-modernism is just the opposite. I now feel alot more freedom in really embracing the human experience now that I realize the constructed nature of it. People are pretty incredible how we invent things and make them real in our experience.
My sense is that such a sentiment is more closely linked to one's personality type than anything else. Many people are capable of sincerely eulogizing someone's life or heroism.
Quote from: Valmy on September 13, 2011, 09:41:33 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:38:28 AM
I am just wondering if our generation(s) is not in the position of being a "permanent outsider" because we live in post-deconstructionist times.
I guess my experience of post-modernism is just the opposite. I now feel alot more freedom in really embracing the human experience now that I realize the constructed nature of it. People are pretty incredible how we invent things and make them real in our experience.
Well, I am not saying this prevents us from participating. But I think that we will almost always lack the 100% sincerity of a true believer - we recognize these are social constructs, and as such cannot see it as anything more.
For example, to me a true believer in the situation PDH described would probably think that the spilling of expensive whisky honors the spirit of the dead, perhaps as a sacrifice to gods, or a way to let the spirit of the dead partake in it - and this is where this gesture originates from. Since we, presumedly, do not share such beliefs but still make the gesture, aren't we to an extent frauds?
Another example, from my own life, is honoring/visiting the graves of the relatives.
It has a huge tradition in Poland, with people historically leaving offerings, such as flowers, candles or even food on the graves of their family and friends on special occassions, notably the All Hallows' Eve. This originates from an old pagan tradition that this somehow allows the people to commune with the spirits of the dead. Now, noone probably believes in it anymore, but people still do it - something that I find baffling and silly - I find this a completely empty ritual (which often gets me into arguments with my parents, who insist I visit the grave of my grandmother - whom I loved greatly and I miss greatly and I remember her often, but I think the ritual is silly).
And it seems many people of my generation approach such things in a similar way.
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:45:14 AM
Well, I am not saying this prevents us from participating. But I think that we will almost always lack the 100% sincerity of a true believer - we recognize these are social constructs, and as such cannot see it as anything more.
But those social constructs are sacred in the human experience and I embrace them as such. I do not see how them being social constructs reduces their power. In fact I think it makes them even more incredible.
I mean the United States is something humans made up and has no existance at all in reality. But in the context of the human experience it is an incredibly real, meaningful, and powerful thing. Isn't that amazing?
I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.
Being the observer, and wanting to be in that position creates this. Anthropologists, when first going out into the field, can have this sense of permanent observer. Many have stated it took time to re-integrate into a position of participant.
I would assume, and no slur intended here Mart, that your self-reflection is perhaps part of the avowed narcissism you have - it becomes more difficult to accept the participation fully when one feels outside of the group always to start with (either higher or lower). That is what the role of communal rituals are for - and truthfully buying into the emotions.
Oddly enough, I would suggest finding a spectator sport you like, and going and cheering with a like group of people - there is nothing closer to that ritual moment of people all leveled then during a positive emotive moment of such an event. Also, it is easier to not suffer the pangs of irony.
Quote from: Malthus on September 13, 2011, 08:32:15 AM
I've raised a monument to my grandfather - it is hidden in an old campsite of ours in the wilderness of northern Quebec, so it isn't really visible to anyone unless they stumble on it by chance. Somehow, that always seemed right to me.
Here's a pic of it (and of my son, named after my grandfather, looking at it):
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi5.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fy176%2Fmalthusmalthus%2FVacation%2FStawberryIsland%2FDsc02128.jpg&hash=05d080c7ffb28840bcba36836c21a79c4154dc15)
WHAT. THE. FUCK.
A monolingual English sign in Quebec? Surely this is not legal. Does BB have to report you now?
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:53:09 AM
I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.
<_<
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 10:11:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:53:09 AM
I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.
<_<
Don't take away his self-imposed victimhood. It's the only source of comfort he has :D
I have always enjoyed rituals and I have never been religious in any way.
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2011, 10:13:14 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 10:11:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:53:09 AM
I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.
<_<
Don't take away his self-imposed victimhood. It's the only source of comfort he has :D
I was just hoping we could get through one thread without an irrelevant reference to homosexuality. If this thread was about participating in a threesome, then sure gay the shit out of the thread. On a topic like this though, really? :thumbsdown:
Quote from: PDH on September 13, 2011, 10:09:14 AM
Oddly enough, I would suggest finding a spectator sport you like, and going and cheering with a like group of people - there is nothing closer to that ritual moment of people all leveled then during a positive emotive moment of such an event. Also, it is easier to not suffer the pangs of irony.
I had noticed the phenomenon that when your school has a winning team girls put out more, but was a little puzzled by the mechanism. This makes sense.
Quote from: PDH on September 13, 2011, 10:09:14 AM
Oddly enough, I would suggest finding a spectator sport you like, and going and cheering with a like group of people - there is nothing closer to that ritual moment of people all leveled then during a positive emotive moment of such an event. Also, it is easier to not suffer the pangs of irony.
It is really ridiculous how powerful emotions are while being a fan of a team. I am almost happier when some dude I do not know does something in a ridiculous game than I am when I achieve something. I mean how amazing is that? Sport fandom is like crack.
Quote from: Valmy on September 13, 2011, 10:38:39 AM
Quote from: PDH on September 13, 2011, 10:09:14 AM
Oddly enough, I would suggest finding a spectator sport you like, and going and cheering with a like group of people - there is nothing closer to that ritual moment of people all leveled then during a positive emotive moment of such an event. Also, it is easier to not suffer the pangs of irony.
It is really ridiculous how powerful emotions are while being a fan of a team. I am almost happier when some dude I do not know does something in a ridiculous game than I am when I achieve something. I mean how amazing is that? Sport fandom is like crack.
i remember going to the zoo and watching the monkey's howl at a group of other money's fighting. i felt oddly similar to how we react during sports. As far as we go we are always rooted in what we are.
The problem is that being a team sports fan is incredibly childish and working class.
For what it's worth, I find that even when I find myself in moments of detached observance in various human rituals, be they funerals, weddings, etc, I can still take comfort in them.
Perhaps in the same way that when I eat chocolate, I know I'm doing it because it tastes good and releases pleasing chemicals in the body, but I still enjoy it. The deconstruction need not necessarily remove the underlying value.
Likewise, when I sit at a funeral of a loved one, I realise that we're not actually commiting his spirit to the sky, but rather sharing our grief with those who remain with the express purpose of helping generate some closure and ensure that life goes on.
Equally, I'm a big fan of football, and specifically, drawing some kind of identity from it. This may sound silly; after all, it's just a badge on a coloured shirt, and I'm just standing with a bunch of complete strangers, with whom I have little in common, out on the terraces. Nevertheless, I still find value in generating a fundamentally irrational sense of belonging and community, even though I'm on occasion deconstructing it to a basic facet of our existence as social animals. I guess having been brought up all over the place with a very chaotic (not in a bad way) childhood, it's not a problem if I self-consciously derive value - unchanging identity - from an arbitrary north London institution.
Would that I had done more anthropology at university, I could have expressed the above in a clearer, more jargon-filled form. :blurgh:
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:38:28 AM
Yeah I understand that (btw, thanks for taking time to understand my post rather than responding with a troll, like so many others).
I am just wondering if our generation(s) is not in the position of being a "permanent outsider" because we live in post-deconstructionist times.
Now, I understand a power of a ritual - and I am capable of being genuinely moved by it. This can be anything - from something as poignant as a friend's funeral (a catholic ceremony, no less, which is not "my community" but I was moved by it) to something as seemingly flippant as a gay pride parade (a modern day carnivale, which also has its place). But there is always the "deconstructionist censor" in the back of my head - always recognizing that I am moved on the emotional level, but deconstructing the ritual at the rational level.
My question is - is this (i) me being a sociopath, (ii) our generation being a bunch of postmodernist cynics, or (iii) people have always done that but didn't actually say that out loud before in fear of being ostracized?
I think you are the type of person who automatically begins from the assumption that you are an outsider looking in at some sort of sociological "other" community that you don't feel a part of. Even when the group in question does not necessarily wish to exclude you. Everyone has that reaction sometimes I think. You more often than most. And yeah, being gay probably does have a lot to do with it, not so much because gay is a fairly unusual trait, but because you derive so much more of your self-identity from that aspect than most people would.
We need a :freud: smiley. :P
Quote from: PDH on September 13, 2011, 10:09:14 AM
Oddly enough, I would suggest finding a spectator sport you like, and going and cheering with a like group of people - there is nothing closer to that ritual moment of people all leveled then during a positive emotive moment of such an event. Also, it is easier to not suffer the pangs of irony.
I wonder if Warsaw has a gay rugby league. :unsure:
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 10:19:02 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2011, 10:13:14 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 10:11:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:53:09 AM
I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.
<_<
Don't take away his self-imposed victimhood. It's the only source of comfort he has :D
I was just hoping we could get through one thread without an irrelevant reference to homosexuality. If this thread was about participating in a threesome, then sure gay the shit out of the thread. On a topic like this though, really? :thumbsdown:
Well, that's how my mind works, sorry.
When I read PDH's story, my line of thought went a bit like this:
1. Gee, that's a cool, moving story.
2. It would be moving to be in a situation like this.
3. I wonder if the people involved would act the same way if one of the participants and/or the dead person was openly gay.
4. :hmm:
5. <_<
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:07:54 AM
Well, that's how my mind works, sorry.
When I read PDH's story, my line of thought went a bit like this:
1. Gee, that's a cool, moving story.
2. It would be moving to be in a situation like this.
3. I wonder if the people involved would act the same way if one of the participants and/or the dead person was openly gay.
4. :hmm:
5. <_<
I can't help it.
At least make an effort. My existence is really gayer than yours and you don't see me inserting sexuality nearly as much as you do.
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 11:10:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:07:54 AM
Well, that's how my mind works, sorry.
When I read PDH's story, my line of thought went a bit like this:
1. Gee, that's a cool, moving story.
2. It would be moving to be in a situation like this.
3. I wonder if the people involved would act the same way if one of the participants and/or the dead person was openly gay.
4. :hmm:
5. <_<
I can't help it.
At least make an effort. My existence is really gayer than yours and you don't see me inserting sexuality nearly as much as you do.
I can't help it. I think I got cynical like that when I read accounts of nazi death camps and Franco's camps for the "political undesirables" and found out that other prisoners actually ganged up on the ones who got there for being gay/effeminate. If that kind of situation did not make people feel the sense of fellowship with the gay ones, then likely any "human bonding" situation that happened 20+ years ago would take exception at gays and treat them as outsiders.
NIMKZ is perfectly natural.
Quote from: Valmy on September 13, 2011, 10:38:39 AM
Quote from: PDH on September 13, 2011, 10:09:14 AM
Oddly enough, I would suggest finding a spectator sport you like, and going and cheering with a like group of people - there is nothing closer to that ritual moment of people all leveled then during a positive emotive moment of such an event. Also, it is easier to not suffer the pangs of irony.
It is really ridiculous how powerful emotions are while being a fan of a team. I am almost happier when some dude I do not know does something in a ridiculous game than I am when I achieve something. I mean how amazing is that? Sport fandom is like crack.
I never ever got that. I have always found that utterly ridiculous and totally alien to me. Maybe I just don't get this. :P
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:12:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 11:10:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:07:54 AM
Well, that's how my mind works, sorry.
When I read PDH's story, my line of thought went a bit like this:
1. Gee, that's a cool, moving story.
2. It would be moving to be in a situation like this.
3. I wonder if the people involved would act the same way if one of the participants and/or the dead person was openly gay.
4. :hmm:
5. <_<
I can't help it.
At least make an effort. My existence is really gayer than yours and you don't see me inserting sexuality nearly as much as you do.
I can't help it. I think I got cynical like that when I read accounts of nazi death camps and Franco's camps for the "political undesirables" and found out that other prisoners actually ganged up on the ones who got there for being gay/effeminate. If that kind of situation did not make people feel the sense of fellowship with the gay ones, then likely any "human bonding" situation that happened 20+ years ago would take exception at gays and treat them as outsiders.
Being gay you should know there is always a bottom ( :P ), people will always ostracize a minority. Go into the arts if you want to see gays decimate against others.
Quote from: The Brain on September 13, 2011, 10:48:49 AM
The problem is that being a team sports fan is incredibly childish and working class.
This.
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:12:15 AM
I can't help it. I think I got cynical like that when I read accounts of nazi death camps and Franco's camps for the "political undesirables" and found out that other prisoners actually ganged up on the ones who got there for being gay/effeminate. If that kind of situation did not make people feel the sense of fellowship with the gay ones, then likely any "human bonding" situation that happened 20+ years ago would take exception at gays and treat them as outsiders.
Cop out. I've read similarly things and yet I keep the rainbow rage in check. Besides doesn't it get tiring to always whine about the negative side to homosexuality? I'd rather focus on the positive.
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2011, 11:18:28 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:12:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 11:10:17 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:07:54 AM
Well, that's how my mind works, sorry.
When I read PDH's story, my line of thought went a bit like this:
1. Gee, that's a cool, moving story.
2. It would be moving to be in a situation like this.
3. I wonder if the people involved would act the same way if one of the participants and/or the dead person was openly gay.
4. :hmm:
5. <_<
I can't help it.
At least make an effort. My existence is really gayer than yours and you don't see me inserting sexuality nearly as much as you do.
I can't help it. I think I got cynical like that when I read accounts of nazi death camps and Franco's camps for the "political undesirables" and found out that other prisoners actually ganged up on the ones who got there for being gay/effeminate. If that kind of situation did not make people feel the sense of fellowship with the gay ones, then likely any "human bonding" situation that happened 20+ years ago would take exception at gays and treat them as outsiders.
Being gay you should know there is always a bottom ( :P ), people will always ostracize a minority. Go into the arts if you want to see gays decimate against others.
Not sure how this contradicts anything I said. :P
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2011, 11:18:28 AM
Being gay you should know there is always a bottom ( :P )
I think Marti tries to avoid that, whenever possible. :D
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:12:15 AM
I can't help it. I think I got cynical like that when I read accounts of nazi death camps and Franco's camps for the "political undesirables" and found out that other prisoners actually ganged up on the ones who got there for being gay/effeminate. If that kind of situation did not make people feel the sense of fellowship with the gay ones, then likely any "human bonding" situation that happened 20+ years ago would take exception at gays and treat them as outsiders.
Cop out. I've read similarly things and yet I keep the rainbow rage in check. Besides doesn't it get tiring to always whine about the negative side to homosexuality? I'd rather focus on the positive.
HIV? :unsure:
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:20:37 AM
HIV? :unsure:
Look on the bright side. Snsures one never grows old, which is the true scurge and fear of the gay man.
... too far :unsure:
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:20:07 AM
Not sure how this contradicts anything I said. :P
True enough :D . I'm just saying you self-identification with all things gay makes you sensitive. You look at any situation and where there is no negative aspect you create one by taking your own prejudices and superimposing the worse possible outcome on a situation.
It isn't healthy to see the worst in every situation. I'm as cynical as the next guy, but sometimes you just have to see a sunny day for what it is and not try to squint to force yourself to see the clouds.
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:20:37 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 11:19:46 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:12:15 AM
I can't help it. I think I got cynical like that when I read accounts of nazi death camps and Franco's camps for the "political undesirables" and found out that other prisoners actually ganged up on the ones who got there for being gay/effeminate. If that kind of situation did not make people feel the sense of fellowship with the gay ones, then likely any "human bonding" situation that happened 20+ years ago would take exception at gays and treat them as outsiders.
Cop out. I've read similarly things and yet I keep the rainbow rage in check. Besides doesn't it get tiring to always whine about the negative side to homosexuality? I'd rather focus on the positive.
HIV? :unsure:
There you go focusing on the negative again. :P
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2011, 11:22:09 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:20:37 AM
HIV? :unsure:
Look on the bright side. Snsures one never grows old, which is the true scurge and fear of the gay man.
... too far :unsure:
Patently false. There are tons of old gits kicking around with HIV.
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2011, 11:26:11 AM
It isn't healthy to see the worst in every situation. I'm as cynical as the next guy, but sometimes you just have to see a sunny day for what it is and not try to squint to force yourself to see the clouds.
Agreed. :hug:
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 11:16:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 13, 2011, 10:38:39 AM
Quote from: PDH on September 13, 2011, 10:09:14 AM
Oddly enough, I would suggest finding a spectator sport you like, and going and cheering with a like group of people - there is nothing closer to that ritual moment of people all leveled then during a positive emotive moment of such an event. Also, it is easier to not suffer the pangs of irony.
It is really ridiculous how powerful emotions are while being a fan of a team. I am almost happier when some dude I do not know does something in a ridiculous game than I am when I achieve something. I mean how amazing is that? Sport fandom is like crack.
I never ever got that. I have always found that utterly ridiculous and totally alien to me. Maybe I just don't get this. :P
There is nothing to get dude. It is just an experience. There is no logical reason I should feel that way. But that is true for virtually all of human experience.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 13, 2011, 08:53:22 AM
I understood Marty's post better than I did Peedy's. :huh:
There is too much thinking going on here.
Quote from: Valmy on September 13, 2011, 11:30:00 AM
There is nothing to get dude. It is just an experience. There is no logical reason I should feel that way. But that is true for virtually all of human experience.
They say the same thing about music concerts, some powerful plays, religious rituals of course or political rallies; that the emotions of each individual are subsumed into something greater that uplifts or crushes the participants. Personally I've always been very leery about these... displays/expressions of unbriddled emotions. As for there being no logical reasons - or course there are. One only need to practice detachment.
G.
Quote from: Grallon on September 13, 2011, 11:54:00 AM
One only need to practice detachment.
Of course I could. But why would I want to? I actively seek it out. It is a thrill.
Quote from: Grallon on September 13, 2011, 11:54:00 AM
As for there being no logical reasons - or course there are. One only need to practice detachment.
G.
I'm not sure how stating that there are methods one can use to avoid feeling certain emotions can be used to see that there are logical reasons that one feels such overwhelming emotions. Unless of course the logical reason is that the individual has yet to develop methods to overcome said emotions. :D
Quote from: Valmy on September 13, 2011, 11:55:49 AM
Quote from: Grallon on September 13, 2011, 11:54:00 AM
One only need to practice detachment.
Of course I could. But why would I want to? I actively seek it out. It is a thrill.
Good on you. And this partially answers Marty's original question. One's attitude towards collective rituals is rooted as much in an individual's temperament as it can be in surrounding social mores or be generated by the rituals themselves.
G.
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 10:19:02 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2011, 10:13:14 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 10:11:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:53:09 AM
I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.
<_<
Don't take away his self-imposed victimhood. It's the only source of comfort he has :D
I was just hoping we could get through one thread without an irrelevant reference to homosexuality. If this thread was about participating in a threesome, then sure gay the shit out of the thread. On a topic like this though, really? :thumbsdown:
I think it was germane.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 13, 2011, 02:27:31 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 10:19:02 AM
Quote from: HVC on September 13, 2011, 10:13:14 AM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 10:11:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:53:09 AM
I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.
<_<
Don't take away his self-imposed victimhood. It's the only source of comfort he has :D
I was just hoping we could get through one thread without an irrelevant reference to homosexuality. If this thread was about participating in a threesome, then sure gay the shit out of the thread. On a topic like this though, really? :thumbsdown:
I think it was germane.
:rolleyes: Let's get serious.
Well, it made sense to me.
Anyway, to answer Mart's question, it's certainly possible, but maybe not possible for you, at least without some kind of fundamental change in how you relate to the world.
This is hardly a slam; I tend to be the same way.
At the same time, I'm capable of being moved by others' pain.* Like, the other day, I was reading about this mentally challenged dude who was a huge, huge Superman fan. His house had been broken into, and much of his Superman comic and memorabilia collection was stolen. His story wound up getting local media play, and blossomed on the Internet, and there's a campaign underway to assist him in rebuilding his collection. The victim, in thanks, said "I have never felt so much love in my life; I no longer feel like the Frankenstein monster. I feel that people understand me now, for the first time in my life" and that made me cry. Possibly because I'm the non-/less-retarded version of this guy? I dunno. It just broke my heart a bit at the same time it made me feel like people aren't completely worthless scum.
So while ritual matters little to me, and communal emotion is probably inaccessible to me, people can still touch me.
In fact, I wish more people touched me.
What was this about again?
*I am also capable of feeling annoyed by their triumphs, but that's just my way.
Quote from: The Brain on September 13, 2011, 10:48:49 AM
The problem is that being a team sports fan is incredibly childish and working class.
That's what makes sports awesome though.
For the record, I am not "practicing detachment" like grallon. I have always wanted to keep moved by grand ritual - I enjoy music, emotionally, for this very reason, and I have tried several religions in the past - but except for the art, I have always got bored very quickly.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 13, 2011, 02:40:19 PM
Well, it made sense to me.
Anyway, to answer Mart's question, it's certainly possible, but maybe not possible for you, at least without some kind of fundamental change in how you relate to the world.
This is hardly a slam; I tend to be the same way.
At the same time, I'm capable of being moved by others' pain.* Like, the other day, I was reading about this mentally challenged dude who was a huge, huge Superman fan. His house had been broken into, and much of his Superman comic and memorabilia collection was stolen. His story wound up getting local media play, and blossomed on the Internet, and there's a campaign underway to assist him in rebuilding his collection. The victim, in thanks, said "I have never felt so much love in my life; I no longer feel like the Frankenstein monster. I feel that people understand me now, for the first time in my life" and that made me cry. Possibly because I'm the non-/less-retarded version of this guy? I dunno. It just broke my heart a bit at the same time it made me feel like people aren't completely worthless scum.
So while ritual matters little to me, and communal emotion is probably inaccessible to me, people can still touch me.
In fact, I wish more people touched me.
What was this about again?
*I am also capable of feeling annoyed by their triumphs, but that's just my way.
I hope you enjoy your collection, monster. :mad:
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 02:52:55 PM
I enjoy music,
Whoa. This needs a "wide sense" sign to be legal.
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 02:52:55 PM
For the record, I am not "practicing detachment" like Grallon. I have always wanted to keep moved by grand ritual - I enjoy music, emotionally, for this very reason, and I have tried several religions in the past - but except for the art, I have always got bored very quickly.
Perhaps you should practice a little then - it might add depth to your experiences...
G.
I have a simpler explanation. Marty is a self-centered Narcissist. He has little time for things don't benefit him somehow.
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2011, 06:21:54 PM
I have a simpler explanation. Marty is a self-centered Narcissist. He has little time for things don't benefit him somehow.
I don't think that's quite true. His internet persona does come across that way a lot, but it seems to me that the real problem is that he seems to hold ironic detachment as a positive virtue (though not to the extent of Grallon). And, to an extent he's right--anyone that doesn't have a certain degree of detachment would probably be so emotionally overwhealmed by modern life that they'd reduced to crying in a corner all the time. But detachment, as with many things, has both positive and negative consequences, and therefore is probably best practiced in moderation.
Quote from: dps on September 13, 2011, 07:35:55 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on September 13, 2011, 06:21:54 PM
I have a simpler explanation. Marty is a self-centered Narcissist. He has little time for things don't benefit him somehow.
I don't think that's quite true. His internet persona does come across that way a lot, but it seems to me that the real problem is that he seems to hold ironic detachment as a positive virtue (though not to the extent of Grallon). And, to an extent he's right--anyone that doesn't have a certain degree of detachment would probably be so emotionally overwhealmed by modern life that they'd reduced to crying in a corner all the time. But detachment, as with many things, has both positive and negative consequences, and therefore is probably best practiced in moderation.
Narcissist often have this sort of detachment. Other people are less
real to them.
You're the realest person I know, Raz.
Quote from: Ideologue on September 13, 2011, 08:37:12 PM
You're the realest person I know, Raz.
Sounds dreadful on all counts.
Raz stole my explanation :(
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 08:40:03 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on September 13, 2011, 08:37:12 PM
You're the realest person I know, Raz.
Sounds dreadful on all counts.
Raz may be many things, but he's no phony.
But he has no empathy.
Quote from: Zoupa on September 13, 2011, 10:31:09 PM
But he has no empathy.
This is true. :( I have a very difficult time understanding people's emotions and the like.
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 10:11:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:53:09 AM
I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.
<_<
Well, he doesn't do assplay, so that eliminates insider, now doesn't it?
Quote from: Grallon on September 13, 2011, 03:33:37 PM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 02:52:55 PM
For the record, I am not "practicing detachment" like Grallon. I have always wanted to keep moved by grand ritual - I enjoy music, emotionally, for this very reason, and I have tried several religions in the past - but except for the art, I have always got bored very quickly.
Perhaps you should practice a little then - it might add depth to your experiences...
G.
I am - that's why I decided to get a piano for my new flat. I will be able to practice music again, like many years ago. :)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on September 13, 2011, 10:54:43 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 13, 2011, 10:11:35 AM
Quote from: Martinus on September 13, 2011, 09:53:09 AM
I wonder if being gay has played a role in this for me since it makes me an outsider to a degree in most such cases.
<_<
Well, he doesn't do assplay, so that eliminates insider, now doesn't it?
:lol: