God help us! :bleeding:
http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/06/27/6956158-first-thoughts-bachmanns-turn-for-overdrive
QuoteBy NBC's Chuck Todd, Mark Murray, Domenico Montanaro, and Ali Weinberg
*** Bachmann's turn for overdrive: More than two weeks ago, we said it was important to take a Michele Bachmann campaign seriously, and the new Des Moines Register poll of likely Iowa GOP caucus-goers backs that up. According to the survey, Mitt Romney (at 23%) is running neck-and-neck with Bachmann (22%), followed by Herman Cain (10%), Newt Gingrich (7%), Ron Paul (7%), Tim Pawlenty (6%), and Rick Santorum (4%). Bachmann couldn't have wished for better news to set up her official announcement, which she makes today from Waterloo, IA at 10:00 am ET. And surprisingly, the poll overshadowed Sarah Palin's stop in Iowa on Tuesday, which had the potential of overshadowing Bachmann's day today. Bachmann has one good problem: She's peaking early. Can she keep it up? And keep this in mind: Bachmann is doing this without the so-called MSM; in fact, she's even doing it without FOX News (whose Chris Wallace asked her yesterday if she was a "flake").
*** Rough news for Pawlenty: If the poll is great news for Bachmann, it's bad news for Pawlenty -- who has put so much effort into Iowa. (Do note, however: The poll was conducted before his TV advertising in the state began.) The Des Moines Register survey, on top of the rough two weeks he's had after the New Hampshire debate, has to hurt fundraising (more on that below). On "TODAY" this morning, Pawlenty responded that these early polls aren't always good predictors. "If they were, we'd have Hillary Clinton as president," he said, noting that Mike Huckabee was at 4% in the poll at this point in the '08 cycle. "We still have plenty of time."
*** Romney the strong front-runner: And then we come to Romney. He's now out in front in both Iowa (barely) and New Hampshire (overwhelmingly). Yes, he's vulnerable. But he's just not the front-runner; he's a STRONGER front-runner than many in Washington will believe. Then again, the last three strong front-runners in the summer before the nominating contests were Howard Dean (2004), Hillary Clinton (2008), and Mitt Romney himself (2008). The one bad piece of news for Romney in the Des Moines Register poll: It takes away his ability to make a surprising finish in the Hawkeye State, even if he decides not to play in the caucuses. And given his 52%-38% fav/ufav among likely caucus-goers (compared with Bachmann's 64%-12% score and Pawlenty's 58%-13%), he doesn't have much more room for growth. In fact, he's just the second choice of 10% of likely caucus-goers.
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*** On the 2012 trail: Romney's in New Hampshire, holding events in Salem and Concord... Santorum's in Iowa... And Huntsman raises money in California.
*** Going negative early: On Friday, the Karl Rove-founded Crossroads GPS group announced it was launching a $20 million TV ad campaign aimed at President Obama, including a $5 million buy that begins today. Is there ever a bad time to spend $20 million? However, you could argue that this is a coming a little early. Does it have the ability to numb the public -- especially in the battleground states -- if we head down this negative path so early?
*** Obama to meet with Reid and McConnell (separately) to discuss the debt ceiling: Away from the presidential campaign trail, the big story remains the debt-ceiling talks. Obama and Vice President Biden meet with Senate Majority Leader Reid at 10:30 am ET, and then they meet separately with Senate Minority Leader McConnell at 5:00 pm. McConnell, per his office, will tell the president that raising taxes has to be off the table. Democrats, of course, want to cut oil subsidies and raise taxes on the very rich. And there does appear to be some wiggle room, but not much. McConnell aide Don Stewart wouldn't say if raising taxes on those making $1 million a year, for example, is completely off the table. Instead, he said Democrats want hundreds of billions in new revenues and, "You can't get there with the easy stuff," he said.
*** Are defense spending cuts the path to compromise? But maybe they can get there will cuts in defense spending. The Washington Post: "As President Obama prepares to meet Monday with Senate leaders to try to restart talks about the swollen national debt, some Republicans see a potential path to compromise: significant cuts in military spending. Senior GOP lawmakers and leadership aides said it would be far easier to build support for a debt-reduction package that cuts the Pentagon budget — a key Democratic demand — than one that raises revenue by tinkering with the tax code. Last week, Republicans walked out of talks led by Vice President Biden, insisting that the White House take tax increases off the table." Defense cuts are a possibility, says Michael Steel, a spokesman for House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH), who is going to play a key role in the final outcome of a debt-limit deal. "Boehner has always said that there's waste at the Pentagon, just like the rest of the government," Steel told First Read before adding, "Tax hikes on small businesses are definitely off the table."
Chris Matthews called this on Bill Maher two weeks ago.
Don't worry Tim I will show up at the Texas Republican Caucus long after Bachmann has the nomination wrapped up and cast a protest vote for Pawlenty.
Seems like Republicans will elect anyone, as long as she's a MILF now. :blush:
Quote from: Caliga on June 27, 2011, 08:59:08 AM
Seems like Republicans will elect anyone, as long as she's a MILF now. :blush:
But really are we supposed to take seriously these fucking polls for things months out? Once all the zillions of dollars gets wasted catering to these people who knows who the fickle Iowans will pick?
Iowa has a strong social conservative bunch, and she's a native Iowan. Why is this surprising?
Seriously. If she's nominated, the GOP deserves to lose. She's worse than Palin by miles. She's a religious nut fascist.
Quote from: Scipio on June 27, 2011, 10:05:26 AM
Seriously. If she's nominated, the GOP deserves to lose. She's worse than Palin by miles. She's a religious nut fascist.
She will not win. The GOP machine is stronger than people give it credit. They will find a Republican governor...who is hopefully not Rick Perry.
That is surprising. I thought the Republicans were better then that. I was (and am still) afraid that Rick Perry could get the nomination.
People have got to understand how irrelevent the Texas Governor really is. George W Bush's primary job was getting legislators to sit down and have a beer and work out their differences (which, incidentally, he was fantastic at) and somehow people thought that meant he had all this experience with governing.
Rick Perry is not even a quarter as good a governor as GWB was and that should be all you need to know.
Quote from: Valmy on June 27, 2011, 10:10:33 AM
Rick Perry is not even a quarter as good a governor as GWB was and that should be all you need to know.
Yeah, but he looks "cool" and "Presidential", so that should be all you need to know. :cool:
Too bad Haley Barbour's not in there. Then he could be running redneck and neck with Bachmann...
Quote from: Valmy on June 27, 2011, 10:07:11 AM
Quote from: Scipio on June 27, 2011, 10:05:26 AM
Seriously. If she's nominated, the GOP deserves to lose. She's worse than Palin by miles. She's a religious nut fascist.
She will not win. The GOP machine is stronger than people give it credit. They will find a Republican governor...who is hopefully not Rick Perry.
Well lets look at the polls:
Romney 23%
Bachman 22%
Okay, so Bachman is neck and neck, but as we get closer will the voters tend toward the insane choice (Bachman) or the not insane but spineless Romney?
Cain 10% - Even more insane the Bachman, give these voters to Bachman
Gingrich 7% - Wow, how is he at even 7%? Give it to Romney
Paul 7% - Insane, but these voters go down with their ship; neither
Pawlenty 6% - LOL, losing to Gingrich? Romney
Santorum 4% - Last place and gay marriage in NY. Poor guy, Bachman
Totals:
Romney: 36%
Bachman: 36%
Paul: 7%
I don't think Republican primary voters can be trusted to make a wise decision here. Remember these are the guys that gave us Angle in Nevada and that crazy lady in Delaware.
Quote from: Scipio on June 27, 2011, 10:27:37 AM
Too bad Haley Barbour's not in there. Then he could be running redneck and neck with Bachmann...
Boss Hog is to smart to run.
Rolling Stone had an article on her: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-20110622?page=1
Obviously a bit biased. What's the view of our languish Republicans and Independents of Bachmann? How good or bad is she? Does she have a chance?
Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2011, 03:37:53 PM
Rolling Stone had an article on her: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-20110622?page=1
Obviously a bit biased. What's the view of our languish Republicans and Independents of Bachmann? How good or bad is she? Does she have a chance?
She's crazy. She worked for the IRS. She went to a shitty law school. So she's about reached the level of her incompetence.
Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2011, 03:37:53 PM
Obviously a bit biased. What's the view of our languish Republicans and Independents of Bachmann? How good or bad is she? Does she have a chance?
I'm not in the groups this is directed to, but from a non partisan perspective she is awful. She is Rush Limbaugh in the US Congress, only without the somewhat entertaining personality. She has no chance to be president. Whether she has a chance at the nomination is a more open question, but I doubt she has a good one.
Given that I said in 2008 that Obama was too inexperienced, how could I possibly support Bachmann?
Quote from: dps on June 27, 2011, 03:47:21 PM
Given that I said in 2008 that Obama was too inexperienced, how could I possibly support Bachmann?
With cognitive dissonance. :contract:
Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2011, 03:37:53 PM
Rolling Stone had an article on her: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-20110622?page=1
Obviously a bit biased. What's the view of our languish Republicans and Independents of Bachmann? How good or bad is she? Does she have a chance?
As an independent, I think she's completely crazy, and too crazy and stupid even for Republicans to nominate her.
Quote from: DGuller on June 27, 2011, 03:51:22 PM
too crazy and stupid even for Republicans to nominate her.
I hope so, but: exhibit A) Sharon Angle, exhibit B) Christine O'Donnell.
I know far too little about Bachmann to give an estimation of her. Everyone tells me she's crazy, though. :hmm:
Quote from: alfred russel on June 27, 2011, 03:52:57 PM
Quote from: DGuller on June 27, 2011, 03:51:22 PM
too crazy and stupid even for Republicans to nominate her.
I hope so, but: exhibit A) Sharon Angle, exhibit B) Christine O'Donnell.
And staying within the Female Sex I must add Sarah Palin as well.
Speaking of stupid, Bachmann claimed to have the same kind of spirit as John Wayne Gacy.
Quote from: Scipio on June 27, 2011, 03:39:04 PM
She's crazy. She worked for the IRS.
She used to prosecute tax cheats. It's like a cosmic joke or something. Half the GOP should he hating her just for that.
Quote
On Friday, the Karl Rove-founded Crossroads GPS group announced it was launching a $20 million TV ad campaign aimed at President Obama, including a $5 million buy that begins today.
They are going to be running ads already? :rolleyes:
Didn't Huckleberry win Iowa last time?
Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2011, 03:37:53 PM
Rolling Stone had an article on her: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-20110622?page=1
Obviously a bit biased. What's the view of our languish Republicans and Independents of Bachmann? How good or bad is she? Does she have a chance?
I like her. She lacks the timidity that has plagued the GOP for years. She fills a needed role in the party, but I don't want her as the GOP prez candidate. I'm guessing she's at her high water mark as far as that is concerned.
Quote from: Scipio on June 27, 2011, 03:39:04 PM
She's crazy. She worked for the IRS. She went to a shitty law school. So she's about reached the level of her incompetence.
So... except for the IRS bit, a female Scipio?
:D
Quote from: derspiess on June 27, 2011, 05:33:15 PM
Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2011, 03:37:53 PM
Rolling Stone had an article on her: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-20110622?page=1
Obviously a bit biased. What's the view of our languish Republicans and Independents of Bachmann? How good or bad is she? Does she have a chance?
I like her. She lacks the timidity that has plagued the GOP for years. She fills a needed role in the party, but I don't want her as the GOP prez candidate. I'm guessing she's at her high water mark as far as that is concerned.
Timidity? Republicans frequently scream their craziness from the tops of buildings. What would a less timid GOP do? Blow up the buildings?
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2011, 06:32:59 PM
Timidity? Republicans frequently scream their craziness from the tops of buildings. What would a less timid GOP do? Blow up the buildings?
Get elected on a platform of fiscal responsibility and then actually act fiscally responsible. That's courage.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 27, 2011, 06:37:22 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2011, 06:32:59 PM
Timidity? Republicans frequently scream their craziness from the tops of buildings. What would a less timid GOP do? Blow up the buildings?
Get elected on a platform of fiscal responsibility and then actually act fiscally responsible. That's courage.
Why would they do that? They don't even believe in fiscal responsibility.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2011, 06:40:55 PM
Why would they do that? They don't even believe in fiscal responsibility.
Their voters do. Which is why their voters are rebelling against them.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 27, 2011, 07:03:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2011, 06:40:55 PM
Why would they do that? They don't even believe in fiscal responsibility.
Their voters do. Which is why their voters are rebelling against them.
Yeah, that's the main reason so many primaries were won last year by challangers who had Tea Party support. The so-called Republican Establishment had got to the point that nobody much trusted them to be fiscally conservative anymore.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 27, 2011, 07:03:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2011, 06:40:55 PM
Why would they do that? They don't even believe in fiscal responsibility.
Their voters do. Which is why their voters are rebelling against them.
I doubt it. If you asked them "Should the Government be fiscally responsible?", they'll probably say yes. As would about anyone else. Get into the details of what that actually means and you run into a lot of problems. You'll likely find that many them are against raising taxes or cutting spending on things they benefit from.
Take Social Security. http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/2011/06/the-tea-party-and-social-security.html
78% of the population in Missouri is against cuts in Social Security. 59% of Tea Party members are.
So...TP folks are more likely to favor cutting SSA than the average Missou resident.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 27, 2011, 09:54:29 PM
So...TP folks are more likely to favor cutting SSA than the average Missou resident.
True, but by no means a majority. They aren't serious.
Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2011, 03:37:53 PM
Obviously a bit biased. What's the view of our languish Republicans and Independents of Bachmann? How good or bad is she? Does she have a chance?
Considering her first real exposure was going on
Hardball with Chris Matthews and calling for an investigation of House members for possible Socialists after the 2008 elections, and how she's demonstrated that she's the alternative for individuals who think Palin is too intellectual, I'd say she's a win-win!
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
I doubt it. If you asked them "Should the Government be fiscally responsible?", they'll probably say yes. As would about anyone else. Get into the details of what that actually means and you run into a lot of problems. You'll likely find that many them are against raising taxes or cutting spending on things they benefit from.
The issue isn't whether or not Tea Partiers have seriously thought through what they are in favor of cutting and how all that would work, but that they are in favor of 'fiscal responsibility' (in vague terms or no), and so as a candidate wanting to appeal to them you have to, on at least the same vague level, proclaim your support for this. Obviously if Bachmann were to, by some miracle, be elected, she'd ditch these people and their agenda as soon as she no longer needed them, since as we all know the President isn't an autocrat when it comes to federal spending.
I like the reference to Bachmann Turner Overdrive in the OP. :)
Quote from: mongers on June 28, 2011, 06:58:49 AM
I like the reference to Bachmann Turner Overdrive in the OP. :)
Ha, I didn't notice that before you pointed it out. :blush: :cool:
I can't take Bachmann seriously. She says some things that appeal to fiscal conservatives but she's a loose cannon in some other things she says and does. She's too extreme on the right and I think many GOP voters will see that too, and after her initial gains she'll eventually fade.
is it true she couldn't tell the difference between The Duke and John Wayne Gacy?
Quote from: Viking on June 28, 2011, 08:25:31 AM
is it true she couldn't tell the difference between The Duke and John Wayne Gacy?
No, that's not true. What is true is that she evoked the "spirit" of John Wayne, whom she claimed was from Waterloo, Iowa, her home town. John Wayne Gacy lived briefly in Waterloo, but she was not referring to him. The Duke was from Iowa, and his parents briefly lived in Waterloo, but he never did.
Quote from: Caliga on June 28, 2011, 06:57:11 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
I doubt it. If you asked them "Should the Government be fiscally responsible?", they'll probably say yes. As would about anyone else. Get into the details of what that actually means and you run into a lot of problems. You'll likely find that many them are against raising taxes or cutting spending on things they benefit from.
The issue isn't whether or not Tea Partiers have seriously thought through what they are in favor of cutting and how all that would work, but that they are in favor of 'fiscal responsibility' (in vague terms or no), and so as a candidate wanting to appeal to them you have to, on at least the same vague level, proclaim your support for this. Obviously if Bachmann were to, by some miracle, be elected, she'd ditch these people and their agenda as soon as she no longer needed them, since as we all know the President isn't an autocrat when it comes to federal spending.
The thing is, every one is for "fiscal responsibility". Just like everyone is for "keeping America safe". It's a platitude.
Quote from: grumbler on June 28, 2011, 09:34:14 AM
Quote from: Viking on June 28, 2011, 08:25:31 AM
is it true she couldn't tell the difference between The Duke and John Wayne Gacy?
No, that's not true. What is true is that she evoked the "spirit" of John Wayne, whom she claimed was from Waterloo, Iowa, her home town. John Wayne Gacy lived briefly in Waterloo, but she was not referring to him. The Duke was from Iowa, and his parents briefly lived in Waterloo, but he never did.
oh well, it sounded too unbelievable for even the most extreme poe.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
78% of the population in Missouri is against cuts in Social Security. 59% of Tea Party members are.
Man if even the nutty fiscal conservatives are against cuts...
*sigh*
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 09:40:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
78% of the population in Missouri is against cuts in Social Security. 59% of Tea Party members are.
Man if even the nutty fiscal conservatives are against cuts...
*sigh*
I suspect nutty fiscal conservatives believe you can balance the budget simply by cutting foreign aid or something equally trivial.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2011, 09:47:26 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 09:40:30 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 27, 2011, 07:52:32 PM
78% of the population in Missouri is against cuts in Social Security. 59% of Tea Party members are.
Man if even the nutty fiscal conservatives are against cuts...
*sigh*
I suspect nutty fiscal conservatives believe you can balance the budget simply by cutting foreign aid or something equally trivial.
Yeah, NPR and tv seems to be one of their targets, despite it costing each American just $1.37 per year.
It's not the cost in that case, it's the perception that such programming promotes liberal bias.
Quote from: mongers on June 28, 2011, 09:51:26 AM
Yeah, NPR and tv seems to be one of their targets, despite it costing each American just $1.37 per year.
I could get a third of a gallon of gas for that. :P
Quote from: Caliga on June 28, 2011, 10:05:51 AM
It's not the cost in that case, it's the perception that such programming promotes liberal bias.
Must be that show NOVA. Science has a well known liberal bias.
Sesame Street always taught me to share my rightful property with other kids. :mad:
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2011, 09:47:26 AM
I suspect nutty fiscal conservatives believe you can balance the budget simply by cutting foreign aid or something equally trivial.
Every little bit helps. When you need to start cutting things from your budget, the small stuff like NPR funding and Harry Reid's Cowboy Poetry Festival are the easiest to cut first.
Quote from: derspiess on June 28, 2011, 11:30:34 AM
Every little bit helps. When you need to start cutting things from your budget, the small stuff like NPR funding and Harry Reid's Cowboy Poetry Festival are the easiest to cut first.
I would use my political capital to go after the things that would actually make a difference first. This is sort of like cleaning up after a nuclear fallout by organizing the spilled paperclips.
It makes me think they do not actually give a shit about the deficit and just want to use this as an excuse to attack Democrat backed programs. Not that there is anything wrong with that but please...show me you are serious first and not just jerking us around.
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 11:34:59 AMIt makes me think they do not actually give a shit about the deficit and just want to use this as an excuse to attack Democrat backed programs. Not that there is anything wrong with that but please...show me you are serious first and not just jerking us around.
I thought that was pretty clear all along.
It seems to me that it's primarily about reshaping the role of government and that the budget is only the excuse.
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 11:34:59 AM
It makes me think they do not actually give a shit about the deficit and just want to use this as an excuse to attack Democrat backed programs. Not that there is anything wrong with that but please...show me you are serious first and not just jerking us around.
What do they need to do to show you they're serious?
Quote from: derspiess on June 28, 2011, 11:44:13 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 11:34:59 AM
It makes me think they do not actually give a shit about the deficit and just want to use this as an excuse to attack Democrat backed programs. Not that there is anything wrong with that but please...show me you are serious first and not just jerking us around.
What do they need to do to show you they're serious?
Same thing the Democrats need to do: a plan that makes singificant cuts in spending and significant increases increases in revenue via higher taxes.
The republicans did roll out a plan that would effectively end medicare. I guess they could get serious points for that, although I thought the reason to be fiscally sound now is to keep from having to nuke medicare and social security.
Quote from: derspiess on June 28, 2011, 11:44:13 AM
What do they need to do to show you they're serious?
Is this a joke?
Have a plan of some sort to balance the budget. That plan needs to include cutting both entitlements and defense spending. I mean common sense Spicey. Do you really need to ask this?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 28, 2011, 11:50:07 AM
Same thing the Democrats need to do: a plan that makes singificant cuts in spending and significant increases increases in revenue via higher taxes.
Works for me. If the American people want stuff they need to pay for it.
Both parties have a platform based on magical fairies and Santa Claus.
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 11:56:57 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 28, 2011, 11:44:13 AM
What do they need to do to show you they're serious?
Is this a joke?
Have a plan of some sort to balance the budget. That plan needs to include cutting both entitlements and defense spending. I mean common sense Spicey. Do you really need to ask this?
Didn't they basically do this with the Ryan plan?
Quote from: alfred russel on June 28, 2011, 12:05:53 PM
Didn't they basically do this with the Ryan plan?
No.
Well ok it speculated that with their plan the budget would be balanced in 50 years. I was not impressed.
Of course even that lame plan was waaaay to radical for the douchebags in the legislature.
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 12:08:32 PM
No.
Well ok it speculated that with their plan the budget would be balanced in 50 years. I was not impressed.
A deficit is sustainable if it is offset by GDP growth and inflation. A deficit that is 2%-3% of GDP should be sustainable. The plan would be there in 2022 according to the CBO review, at least as the plan is written (which really isn't implementable).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Path_to_Prosperity
Quote from: derspiess on June 28, 2011, 11:30:34 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2011, 09:47:26 AM
I suspect nutty fiscal conservatives believe you can balance the budget simply by cutting foreign aid or something equally trivial.
Every little bit helps. When you need to start cutting things from your budget, the small stuff like NPR funding and Harry Reid's Cowboy Poetry Festival are the easiest to cut first. things you don't like are the easiest to cut fist
Fixed your post. If they want a place to start, cut pork in their own districts. If they want to be taken seriously, gore their own oxen first.
Quote from: derspiess on June 28, 2011, 11:44:13 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 28, 2011, 11:34:59 AM
It makes me think they do not actually give a shit about the deficit and just want to use this as an excuse to attack Democrat backed programs. Not that there is anything wrong with that but please...show me you are serious first and not just jerking us around.
What do they need to do to show you they're serious?
Cause otherwise it's just cheap demagoguery.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2011, 12:23:07 PM
If they want to be taken seriously, gore their own oxen first.
Yeah, you'd like that, wouldn't you.
Quote from: derspiess on June 28, 2011, 12:26:29 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2011, 12:23:07 PM
If they want to be taken seriously, gore their own oxen first.
Yeah, you'd like that, wouldn't you.
I'd like them to put up or shut up. So far all I see is, "Times are bad, we think the burden should be born by someone who is not us.", type thinking.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 28, 2011, 11:54:49 AM
The republicans did roll out a plan that would effectively end medicare.
Not precisely. It proposed to replace medicare with a voucher system that a number of years out would actually cost more.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 28, 2011, 12:05:53 PM
Didn't they basically do this with the Ryan plan?
The Ryan plan didn't IIRC specify cuts in defense spending, although if you analyze out its implications, it would involve cutting defense spending to approximately zero some 20 years out.
The plan has some interest as a concept release or discussion point, but not as an actual budgetary proposal.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 28, 2011, 12:36:45 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 28, 2011, 11:54:49 AM
The republicans did roll out a plan that would effectively end medicare.
Not precisely. It proposed to replace medicare with a voucher system that a number of years out would actually cost more.
If you replace medicare with a voucher system tied to CPI, you have effectively ended the program imo. Providing vouchers for private insurance, and then tying the vouchers to an inflation index that is much less than the increase rate for health care costs, ends the government's insurance that the elderly have access to decent health care.
I don't know whether the overall costs would be higher or lower (beneficiaries would likely be paying more out of pocket), but I think the cost to the government would be going down long term.
QuoteThe Ryan plan didn't IIRC specify cuts in defense spending, although if you analyze out its implications, it would involve cutting defense spending to approximately zero some 20 years out.
The plan has some interest as a concept release or discussion point, but not as an actual budgetary proposal.
Yes--defense spending was included in a bucket that would be cut very (and unrealistically) deeply.
We have 700 overseas bases, yet we can make bombing runs over Afghanistan from a base in Missouri. That might be a good place to start.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 28, 2011, 12:55:26 PM
We have 700 overseas bases, yet we can make bombing runs over Afghanistan from a base in Missouri. That might be a good place to start.
Go ahead. I've never seen the utility of a bomber base in the middle of Rat's Ass Missouri.
Quote from: Viking on June 28, 2011, 09:39:25 AM
oh well, it sounded too unbelievable for even the most extreme poe.
At least she just said, "oops!" rather than trying to argue it wasn't a mistake, like Palin does.
I assume this is a new idea, by a Dem and Repub together, not a rehash of a rehash. But it seems difficult lately to keep track of what the Dems and Repubs are proposing, counter proposing, or else bashing each over the heads with for political gains. ;)
But at least it's another proposal, the concepts of which can added to debate by Congress, to try and get some changes going.
Quote
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/28/lieberman-coburn-to-pitch-plan-to-stabilize-medicare-save-500-billion-over-10/?test=latestnews
Lieberman, Coburn to Pitch Plan to Stabilize Medicare, Save $500 Billion Over 10 Years
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/28/lieberman-coburn-to-pitch-plan-to-stabilize-medicare-save-500-billion-over-10/#ixzz1QZcq41YF
Sens. Joe Lieberman, I-Conn., and Tom Coburn, R-Mont, an unlikely duo, are joining forces in an attempt to save Medicare -- one of the key points of debate in the fight over deficit reduction.
The pair plan to unveil their Medicare plan Tuesday as White House and congressional negotiators struggle to nail down an agreement to cut spending and raise the debt ceiling before the Obama administration's emergency measures run out in early August.
Coburn is an original member of the Senate's "Gang of Six," which had been trying to negotiate a compromise deal on raising the debt ceiling. He is on a self-described "sabbatical," in part because of a disagreement with Democrats in the group over entitlement reform. Coburn is also planning to introduce a plan as early as next week that he says would slash the debt by $9 trillion.
Lieberman and Coburn describe their Medicare plan as "a bipartisan proposal to save Medicare and reduce the debt."
A Lieberman source asked to remain anonymous in order to reveal, in advance, the following information about the senators' legislation:
• According to Congressional Budget Office estimates, the Lieberman/Coburn proposal would save approximately $500 billion over 10 years and reduce Medicare spending in the out years.
• It would extend the solvency of Medicare Part A by allocating $250 billion of savings found through this proposal to the Medicare Part A Trust Fund, almost doubling the size of the fund.
• It would reduce Medicare's 75-year unfunded liabilities by $10 trillion.
• It would significantly reduce the fiscal impact of the Medicare Part B program on the federal budget.
• For the first time in the history of the Medicare program, it would offer seniors catastrophic medical coverage to protect them from bankruptcy or massive health care debt due to an unplanned medical emergency or a long-term illness.
• It would contain a three-year "doc fix" that is paid for and will bring stability to Medicare's provider system.
• It would preserve Medicare for current and future enrollees.
In the broader debt negotiations, Republicans are demanding steep spending cuts as a condition for supporting an increase in the debt ceiling. They claim Democratic negotiators in the talks led by Vice President Biden have been pushing too hard for tax increases as part of that deal -- kicking it up to President Obama and party leaders to figure out the next step.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2011, 12:31:27 PM
I'd like them to put up or shut up. So far all I see is, "Times are bad, we think the burden should be born by someone who is not us.", type thinking.
:huh: Retirees are all Democrats?
Quote from: alfred russel on June 28, 2011, 12:17:04 PM
A deficit is sustainable if it is offset by GDP growth and inflation. A deficit that is 2%-3% of GDP should be sustainable.
Depends on the type of borrowing that makes up the deficit.
How much is borrowed from the mob?
Quote from: The Brain on June 28, 2011, 05:44:00 PM
How much is borrowed from the mob?
If you're Greece, most of it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 27, 2011, 05:30:37 PM
Didn't Huckleberry win Iowa last time?
Yeah. Iowa seems to be a lock for the social conservative candidate. Romney just needs to do well in Iowa, not win it. He'll have New Hampshire in his pocket.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 28, 2011, 05:34:24 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2011, 12:31:27 PM
I'd like them to put up or shut up. So far all I see is, "Times are bad, we think the burden should be born by someone who is not us.", type thinking.
:huh: Retirees are all Democrats?
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. You and I are at totally different wavelengths, Rev.
Quote from: Fate on June 28, 2011, 10:13:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 27, 2011, 05:30:37 PM
Didn't Huckleberry win Iowa last time?
Yeah. Iowa seems to be a lock for the social conservative candidate. Romney just needs to do well in Iowa, not win it. He'll have New Hampshire in his pocket.
I think Ron Paul would do well in New Hampshire as well.
Quote from: citizen k on June 28, 2011, 10:18:22 PM
Quote from: Fate on June 28, 2011, 10:13:48 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 27, 2011, 05:30:37 PM
Didn't Huckleberry win Iowa last time?
Yeah. Iowa seems to be a lock for the social conservative candidate. Romney just needs to do well in Iowa, not win it. He'll have New Hampshire in his pocket.
I think Ron Paul would do well in New Hampshire as well.
Dear god I hope not. The last thing the Republican party needs is a legitimization of his views.
Quote from: Fate on June 28, 2011, 10:23:57 PM
Quote from: citizen k on June 28, 2011, 10:18:22 PM
I think Ron Paul would do well in New Hampshire as well.
Dear god I hope not. The last thing the Republican party needs is a legitimization of his views.
Of course the Dems would rather face Bachmann in the general.
Quote from: citizen k on June 28, 2011, 10:32:58 PM
Of course the Dems would rather face Bachmann in the general.
Please don't talk to it.
Quote from: Fate on June 28, 2011, 10:23:57 PM
Quote from: citizen k on June 28, 2011, 10:18:22 PM
I think Ron Paul would do well in New Hampshire as well.
Dear god I hope not. The last thing the Republican party needs is a legitimization of his views.
The Republican Party is truly in dire straits when Ron Paul is considered "one of the sane ones".
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2011, 10:18:13 PM
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. You and I are at totally different wavelengths, Rev.
Ryan suggests cuts to Medicare. Medicare goes to seniors.
Razgovory suggests Republicans only cut programs that don't go to "us."
Yi concludes Razgovory thinks seniors are not Republicans.
Razgovory expresses confusion.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2011, 06:40:25 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2011, 10:18:13 PM
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. You and I are at totally different wavelengths, Rev.
Ryan suggests cuts to Medicare. Medicare goes to seniors.
Razgovory suggests Republicans only cut programs that don't go to "us."
Yi concludes Razgovory thinks seniors are not Republicans.
Razgovory expresses confusion.
You win the strawman contest. 'grats.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2011, 06:40:25 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 28, 2011, 10:18:13 PM
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. You and I are at totally different wavelengths, Rev.
Ryan suggests cuts to Medicare. Medicare goes to seniors.
Razgovory suggests Republicans only cut programs that don't go to "us."
Yi concludes Razgovory thinks seniors are not Republicans.
Razgovory expresses confusion.
Yep, totally different wavelengths. I thought I was clear, I was talking about cowboy poets.
Quote from: Razgovory on June 29, 2011, 08:58:07 AM
Yep, totally different wavelengths. I thought I was clear, I was talking about cowboy poets.
I see. So when you posted "So far all I see is.." what you really meant was "So far at least one thing I see is."
Another possibility is you only read the part about Ryan's proposal that mentioned cowboy poets, and had never heard he is proposing cuts to Medicare.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2011, 04:54:09 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on June 29, 2011, 08:58:07 AM
Yep, totally different wavelengths. I thought I was clear, I was talking about cowboy poets.
I see. So when you posted "So far all I see is.." what you really meant was "So far at least one thing I see is."
Another possibility is you only read the part about Ryan's proposal that mentioned cowboy poets, and had never heard he is proposing cuts to Medicare.
Cowboy poets was something someone else mentioned. Ryan's proposal could be taken slightly more serious if it actually reduced debt rather then create it.
In fact I never mentioned the Ryan Plan or Ryan. I was talking about rank and file Tea Party members and the platitudes they swallow. Why you assumed I was talking about Ryan really did perplex me.
http://www.slate.com/content/slate/blogs/weigel/2011/04/19/poll_70_percent_of_tea_party_supporters_oppose_medicare_cuts.html
And it appears that Most Tea Party types don't like Medicare cuts either.
According to this:
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1892/tea-party-republicans-divide-cuts-federal-spending
The only places where a majority of Tea Party types favor cutting are Foreign Aid, Unemployment benefits, Environmental protection, and Healthcare. I suspect the last two have to do with crazy conspiracy theories (Climate change is a Hoax! Obamacare Deathpanels!), more then anything else. The first two don't make up the the Majority of the Tea Party (foreigners and the unemployed), I suspect. I was surprised that "Aid to US needy" didn't have majority. Times are tough all over, I suppose. I found an older poll for conservatives where they approved the cutting of "Welfare", but would not cut when asked about specific programs. It was from 2008, so it didn't seem that important.
My apologies for the misunderstanding Raz.
Out of curiosity, where did you get that Tea Partiers want to eliminate Cowboy Poetry?
Something Derspeiss said.
Quote from: Jacob on June 27, 2011, 03:37:53 PM
Rolling Stone had an article on her: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/michele-bachmanns-holy-war-20110622?page=1
Obviously a bit biased.
Of course it's biased; it's Rolling Stone. However, it does make a very good point:
QuoteSnickering readers in New York or Los Angeles might be tempted by all of this to conclude that Bachmann is uniquely crazy. But in fact, such tales by Bachmann work precisely because there are a great many people in America just like Bachmann, people who believe that God tells them what condiments to put on their hamburgers, who can't tell the difference between Soviet Communism and a Stafford loan, but can certainly tell the difference between being mocked and being taken seriously. When you laugh at Michele Bachmann for going on MSNBC and blurting out that the moon is made of red communist cheese, these people don't learn that she is wrong. What they learn is that you're a dick, that they hate you more than ever, and that they're even more determined now to support anyone who promises not to laugh at their own visions and fantasies.
There's a reason Dubya won--twice--and why Dumbfuckistan is going to get carried by politicians like Bachmann; otherwise normal Americans, with their fruity gold standard/every-sperm-is-sacred funditudes, get mad when they think they're being made fun of by the Lame Stream Media, big city libruls, and academia. They didn't like being lectured by the hippie Gore, or the northeaestern liberal millionaire Kerry, and they certainly didn't like be outvoted by brown people, fags and unions with the nigger Obama.
If Obama's not careful, this psychobitch fruitloop could make things very scary. Most educated, rational human beings should be worried; even normal conservatives and the fake libertarians, who can drowned out very quickly in the primaries.
Nobody likes getting made fun of. Except maybe Siege and Lettow. :hmm:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 30, 2011, 04:31:19 AM
.....
If Obama's not careful, this psychobitch fruitloop could make things very scary. Most educated, rational human beings should be worried; even normal conservatives and the fake libertarians, who can drowned out very quickly in the primaries.
Have you been reading Nostrodamus ? :(
No country's electorate can be that stupid can they ?: :unsure:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fglobenews9.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F08%2Fmahmoud_ahmadinejad.jpg&hash=3209a7509fcf75fb1eb1ddae4814dc94349b31a3)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 30, 2011, 04:31:19 AM
They didn't like being lectured by the hippie Gore, or the northeaestern liberal millionaire Kerry, a
Goddamn right. I know everytime I flip on MSNBC, any sympathy for lefties or their causes dies. Fuck those New York faggots.
Although I am not a fan of Obama by any means, I would definitely vote for him over Bachmann. I usually vote third party but if it came down to a race between those two I'd feel compelled to vote for Obama.
I wouldn't feel compelled to vote for anybody since Texas will vote Republican even if Pontius Pilate was heading the ticket on a crucify Jesus platform.
I will still vote though because...well...I always do.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2011, 07:00:57 PM
My apologies for the misunderstanding Raz.
Out of curiosity, where did you get that Tea Partiers want to eliminate Cowboy Poetry?
Linky: http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0311/Reid_Save_federal_funding_for_the_cowboy_poets.html
:D
They spend $20.2 billion on cowboy poetry?
Quote from: The Brain on June 30, 2011, 11:25:21 AM
They spend $20.2 billion on cowboy poetry?
If we send the windbags out to Iraq they can double as air-conditioners.
Quote from: derspiess on June 30, 2011, 11:17:47 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 29, 2011, 07:00:57 PM
My apologies for the misunderstanding Raz.
Out of curiosity, where did you get that Tea Partiers want to eliminate Cowboy Poetry?
Linky: http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennthrush/0311/Reid_Save_federal_funding_for_the_cowboy_poets.html
:D
Reid is quite the stumblemouth himself:
Quote"Had that program not been around, the tens of thousands of people who come there every year would not exist."
:D
Maybe there are wild orgies at those meetings.
Quote from: Valmy on June 30, 2011, 08:36:07 AM
I wouldn't feel compelled to vote for anybody since Texas will vote Republican even if Pontius Pilate was heading the ticket on a crucify Jesus platform.
I will still vote though because...well...I always do.
There aren't even Democrats to vote for in Lubbock. Most of your options are Republican vs. Libertarian. :lol: