So, a lot of people on Languish are "generation X" people, and a lot of you hold mid or high management positions in your companies, corporations, firms and whatnot.
How the fuck do you deal with Y-ers? Or is the difference not as pronounced as in Poland (where X-geners were very hard working and Y-geners are fucking lazy freeloaders).
In my experience, every generation thinks that they are hardworking, and that the generation after them are lazy, rebellious, etc. When I was a kid, my teachers, bosses, parents all said that it was very difficult to deal with generation Xs.
Speaking as an underling, I would appreciate good instructions from my bosses. It is actually pretty tough to give good instructions, and a lot of people just can't do that. Because very often the bosses are themselves given conflicting instructions, or have no idea what is going on. So they just summon their underlings and throw a tantrum. When the underlings fail, the bosses attempt to pass on responsibility. Giving good instructions requires that the bosses at least understand the objectives of the task themselves before they can pass this onto the underlings.
Secondly, the bosses should avoid pretending to know how to solve the problem if they have no idea. Assume that the bosses know that the objective is to reach Town A. There is a tendency/temptation for bosses to give detailed instructions on HOW to do so. It takes tremendous courage and self-confidence for bosses to admit that actually they have no idea how to reach Town A, and that the underlings should figure out how to do so themselves. What often happens is that the bosses insist in taking Highway B, when in fact Highway B is blocked or mined. When the underlings report that the entire division has been blown up on Highway B, the bosses accuse them of freeloading. Good instructions should set out the objective clearly, but allow discretion and freedom for underlings to adopt the best solution during implementation. Very often the bosses think this is implied - it isn't, nobody is going to take Highway C if you explicitly state that Highway B must be taken.
While I understand Mono's generalisation on the issue, the problem with Gen Y is very real here in Norway. They are the first generation that has grown up in real general affluence after the oil-adventure started in the 70s.
In my experience (and to be fair, I've mostly dealt with people who are just 4-5 years younger than me, and I barely straddle the very end of GenX myself) they have as a rule not accepted the kind of work hours I find perfectly logical (IE 60-70 hours per week) and start complaining when given even a moderate work load.
To be fair to GenY, this is a general problem in Norwegian society, and not exclusively to GenY. The standard work week here in Norway is 37,5 hours, and a recent suggestion to increase it to 40 hours was met with outrage especially from the socialist unions with one representative going on the record as claiming "it would be a return to the 19th century, and do we REALLY want to remove all rights from the oppressed workers?"
No matter how you slice it, Norwegians NEED to work more and since immigrants other than Europeans have a vastly lower employment rate than the Norwads, their need for labour is only going to be met by an increase in work hours.
Underlings will test the limits they have, you did the same with your boss. You just need to draw the line.
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2011, 03:47:10 AM
In my experience, every generation thinks that they are hardworking, and that the generation after them are lazy, rebellious, etc. When I was a kid, my teachers, bosses, parents all said that it was very difficult to deal with generation Xs.
What he said. I'm of the opinion that when you start complaining about "young kids these days" is when you officially stop being young yourself. :P
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 04:14:31 AM
In my experience (and to be fair, I've mostly dealt with people who are just 4-5 years younger than me, and I barely straddle the very end of GenX myself) they have as a rule not accepted the kind of work hours I find perfectly logical (IE 60-70 hours per week) and start complaining when given even a moderate work load.
If they all have the same problem when working for you, maybe the one who really has a problem is you and not them. What you might find acceptable might be unacceptable for others. I'd personally never ever accept as normal a 60-70 hour work week. It's ok in peak times, but it's not acceptable as an standard.
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2011, 04:54:59 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2011, 03:47:10 AM
In my experience, every generation thinks that they are hardworking, and that the generation after them are lazy, rebellious, etc. When I was a kid, my teachers, bosses, parents all said that it was very difficult to deal with generation Xs.
What he said. I'm of the opinion that when you start complaining about "young kids these days" is when you officially stop being young yourself. :P
Funny. Even in highschool there was a very poignant difference in academic results (at least anecdotally) between the 1980 and the 1982 generation, which even the teachers remarked on as strange. I guess I stopped being young at 17. :cry:
QuoteIf they all have the same problem when working for you, maybe the one who really has a problem is you and not them. What you might find acceptable might be unacceptable for others. I'd personally never ever accept as normal a 60-70 hour work week. It's ok in peak times, but it's not acceptable as an standard.
They didn't all have the same problem, and it's not a normal work week by any stretch, but it's the kind of job where most people need to put in those kind of hours for the first couple of months if not the first year in order to succeed since the learning curve is steep.
I don't expect a 70 hour week, and I certainly don't put in a 70 hour week right now, but I expect it to be done when necessary and for GenY in Norway, the trend is that this is not acceptable.
But sure, maybe I come from a background that differs from the norm. The last 10 years, my standard week has seldom been less than 50 hours, and during peaks it has typically crossed 80 hours. My old man still complains that I'm lazy, but he routinely likes to pull 100 hour weeks. Though frankly, I think he's paying for it now.
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 04:57:53 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2011, 04:54:59 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2011, 03:47:10 AM
In my experience, every generation thinks that they are hardworking, and that the generation after them are lazy, rebellious, etc. When I was a kid, my teachers, bosses, parents all said that it was very difficult to deal with generation Xs.
What he said. I'm of the opinion that when you start complaining about "young kids these days" is when you officially stop being young yourself. :P
Funny. Even in highschool there was a very poignant difference in academic results (at least anecdotally) between the 1980 and the 1982 generation, which even the teachers remarked on as strange. I guess I stopped being young at 17. :cry:
:console:
I guess that some people are just old at heart and there's nothing to be done about it.
The Y-gen phenomenon is recognized by sociologists so this is more than just "kids these days". There is a very strong preference towards "work and life balance" and "flexibility" in people who enter the labour market these days when it was in our generation. I posted this thread after reading an article commenting on a study on this - so this is not just my imagination.
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2011, 04:54:59 AM
If they all have the same problem when working for you, maybe the one who really has a problem is you and not them. What you might find acceptable might be unacceptable for others. I'd personally never ever accept as normal a 60-70 hour work week. It's ok in peak times, but it's not acceptable as an standard.
Do your compatriots think like you? I guess we now know why Spain is on the brink of bankruptcy.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 05:07:48 AM
The Y-gen phenomenon is recognized by sociologists so this is more than just "kids these days". There is a very strong preference towards "work and life balance" and "flexibility" in people who enter the labour market these days when it was in our generation. I posted this thread after reading an article commenting on a study on this - so this is not just my imagination.
I think TV is partly to blame for this.
And before you jump down my throat at this cliché statement, I suggest checking out "How TV ruined your life" which is a british exposé on the subject. Brilliant show. Quite an eye-opener. :hmm:
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 04:57:53 AM
But sure, maybe I come from a background that differs from the norm. The last 10 years, my standard week has seldom been less than 50 hours, and during peaks it has typically crossed 80 hours. My old man still complains that I'm lazy, but he routinely likes to pull 100 hour weeks. Though frankly, I think he's paying for it now.
Same for me. My standard working day is 9 a.m. - 7/8 p.m. In busy times, it's until 10-11 p.m., with perhaps 20 hours per month of weekend work on average being required too.
The thing is, people these days not only are not happy to put in these hours, they expect to be paid the way people who put in these hours are, which is not acceptable.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 05:11:39 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 04:57:53 AM
But sure, maybe I come from a background that differs from the norm. The last 10 years, my standard week has seldom been less than 50 hours, and during peaks it has typically crossed 80 hours. My old man still complains that I'm lazy, but he routinely likes to pull 100 hour weeks. Though frankly, I think he's paying for it now.
Same for me. My standard working day is 9 a.m. - 7/8 p.m. In busy times, it's until 10-11 p.m., with perhaps 20 hours per month of weekend work on average being required too.
The thing is, people these days not only are not happy to put in these hours, they expect to be paid the way people who put in these hours are, which is not acceptable.
Enjoy your heart attack at 45, then. Do you sleep at the office as well?
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2011, 05:15:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 05:11:39 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 04:57:53 AM
But sure, maybe I come from a background that differs from the norm. The last 10 years, my standard week has seldom been less than 50 hours, and during peaks it has typically crossed 80 hours. My old man still complains that I'm lazy, but he routinely likes to pull 100 hour weeks. Though frankly, I think he's paying for it now.
Same for me. My standard working day is 9 a.m. - 7/8 p.m. In busy times, it's until 10-11 p.m., with perhaps 20 hours per month of weekend work on average being required too.
The thing is, people these days not only are not happy to put in these hours, they expect to be paid the way people who put in these hours are, which is not acceptable.
Enjoy your heart attack at 45, then. Do you sleep at the office as well?
Not really. In fact, these are pretty lax hours - I know people who stay at work until 3 a.m. regularly.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 05:21:31 AM
Quote from: The Larch on May 31, 2011, 05:15:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 05:11:39 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 04:57:53 AM
But sure, maybe I come from a background that differs from the norm. The last 10 years, my standard week has seldom been less than 50 hours, and during peaks it has typically crossed 80 hours. My old man still complains that I'm lazy, but he routinely likes to pull 100 hour weeks. Though frankly, I think he's paying for it now.
Same for me. My standard working day is 9 a.m. - 7/8 p.m. In busy times, it's until 10-11 p.m., with perhaps 20 hours per month of weekend work on average being required too.
The thing is, people these days not only are not happy to put in these hours, they expect to be paid the way people who put in these hours are, which is not acceptable.
Enjoy your heart attack at 45, then. Do you sleep at the office as well?
Not really. In fact, these are pretty lax hours - I know people who stay at work until 3 a.m. regularly.
I guess they must be really happy with their lives.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 03:36:52 AM
So, a lot of people on Languish are "generation X" people, and a lot of you hold mid or high management positions in your companies, corporations, firms and whatnot.
How the fuck do you deal with Y-ers? Or is the difference not as pronounced as in Poland (where X-geners were very hard working and Y-geners are fucking lazy freeloaders).
Oh, it's pronounced; the problem I've seen with Gen Yers is they are simply not as prepared for entry-level stuff that actually involves human interaction coming out of college. Good luck trying to get their asses on the phone; if it's not email, you might as well use smoke signals. And forget public speaking, presentations, or other "performance arts".
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 05:11:39 AMThe thing is, people these days not only are not happy to put in these hours, they expect to be paid the way people who put in these hours are, which is not acceptable.
Why isn't it acceptable? It's a free market.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 05:11:39 AM
Quote from: Slargos on May 31, 2011, 04:57:53 AM
But sure, maybe I come from a background that differs from the norm. The last 10 years, my standard week has seldom been less than 50 hours, and during peaks it has typically crossed 80 hours. My old man still complains that I'm lazy, but he routinely likes to pull 100 hour weeks. Though frankly, I think he's paying for it now.
Same for me. My standard working day is 9 a.m. - 7/8 p.m. In busy times, it's until 10-11 p.m., with perhaps 20 hours per month of weekend work on average being required too.
The thing is, people these days not only are not happy to put in these hours, they expect to be paid the way people who put in these hours are, which is not acceptable.
Frankly, I'm fine with the fact that people want to work shorter hours. If you're happy earning less, go for it.
What I resent is that when the discussion comes up, as for instance when a friend of mine related the story of how he'd gotten a huge paycheck (~$3000 after taxes with a lot of OT and night/weekend compensation, which is admittedly pretty good for a guy working as a journalist in Sweden, barely out of school) and proceeds to ask me about my biggest monthly paycheck. I made a bit over $30 000 my best month, but I can't say that because I know it will only cause resentment. Of course, they don't know that I worked every single day of that month, and that I sacrifice a lot that they take for granted in my job.
Of course, people typically don't think. They just look at the bottom line. Sure, my profit margin is pretty big. Depending on the product it's between 50-80%. If you just look at the time spent with the customer I'm sometimes making in excess of $1000/hour. However, I can sometimes spend up to (and in horrible scenarios beyond) 20 hours behind the scenes, so to speak, and suddenly the calculation doesn't look so good. Somehow, however, those other 18 hours are "free" since I can't bill anyone for them. Likewise, all the nights I spent sleepless because of a bad couple of weeks, sunday mornings spent taking calls from angry/happy/curious customers, and 6 hour drives to deliver a quote to a guy who can't pay but really wants to know "how much it costs" are never considered when bitching about that paycheck.
Yeah. What I think is one of the reasons is that people expect their pay to be a direct function of education/degree, which is simply not the case.
What your education simply gets you is opening the door to certain professions (more in some than others, I suppose, but in principle that's the way it is). However, once you are within that profession, I learned that a huge bulk of how much you are paid is a function of how flexible/available you need to be.
People think that if they finish a good school and have some additional education in their field, they should be paid a lot, whereas simply this is not the case - because there are dozens of people who are just as good as you. What sets one aside is willingness to put up with frankly "shitty" lifestyle involving a lot of work and having to make personal compromises. Just as you, I do not mind people who say they want to work less/have more "9 to 5" job and be paid less, but what pisses me off are people who think they deserve high pay for a laidback job simply because "a school teacher should be paid more than a plumber" or some elitist shit like this.
Quote from: Zanza2 on May 31, 2011, 05:52:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 05:11:39 AMThe thing is, people these days not only are not happy to put in these hours, they expect to be paid the way people who put in these hours are, which is not acceptable.
Why isn't it acceptable? It's a free market.
Not really. These people do not get hired. But then they go into the streets and protest, like the slackers in Spain or Greece right now.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:24:04 AM
Yeah. What I think is one of the reasons is that people expect their pay to be a direct function of education/degree, which is simply not the case.
I'd rather hire someone without a degree with 5 years' experience on the job or a freshly-minted DD-214 than someone with a degree right out of college whose only experience the last 5 years was date rape and sleeping in their own beer bong vomit.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:24:57 AM
Quote from: Zanza2 on May 31, 2011, 05:52:40 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 05:11:39 AMThe thing is, people these days not only are not happy to put in these hours, they expect to be paid the way people who put in these hours are, which is not acceptable.
Why isn't it acceptable? It's a free market.
Not really. These people do not get hired. But then they go into the streets and protest, like the slackers in Spain or Greece right now.
You project so much that you should get a side job in a movie theatre.
:lol:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 31, 2011, 06:29:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:24:04 AM
Yeah. What I think is one of the reasons is that people expect their pay to be a direct function of education/degree, which is simply not the case.
I'd rather hire someone without a degree with 5 years' experience on the job or a freshly-minted DD-214 than someone with a degree right out of college whose only experience the last 5 years was date rape and sleeping in their own beer bong vomit.
Are people you hire among the best paid individuals in your country?
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 05:21:31 AM
Not really. In fact, these are pretty lax hours - I know people who stay at work until 3 a.m. regularly.
I know people who start work every day at 4:00am and work until 5:00am the next day.
Well I hope you workaholics get decent overtime money for slaving away for other people's profit.
If yes, all is well. If not, you are the crazy ones, not the people who are fine with working 40 hours, especially if they get the same money you do. And if thats roughly the same job too, then you overtimers are the suckers, and you need to realize that.
Me? I have kept it strict principle to never take work home. It is gI have worked overtime a lot of times, on multiple occassions I ended up helping other guys/teams overtime without financial compensation, when shit hit the fan and I stayed in to clear it up. But I work to live not the other way around.
I find generation Y to be alot more varied than mine is. Sure you get folks who're like "email or it didn't happen" and they seem to be a little less comfortable being left to their own devices at work, but I wouldn't write them off as completely worthless. They just require a slightly different handling method.
Gen X is supposed to be hard-working, while Gen Y are a bunch of slackers? :lol:
The original stereotype of Gen X was exactly that - a bunch of slackers. The irony is strong in this thread.
Quote from: Barrister on May 31, 2011, 07:25:42 AM
Gen X is supposed to be hard-working, while Gen Y are a bunch of slackers? :lol:
The original stereotype of Gen X was exactly that - a bunch of slackers. The irony is strong in this thread.
yep
Ed's hiring process:
Plusses:
Hard Worker
Vet (Combat Vets double plus good)
Won't treat their co-workers like crewmen on a Klingon Battlecruiser
Age 30+
Alumni from Ohio colleges
Minuses:
Just came out of college
Sass mouth
Women
Flamboyant poofs
Alumni from Michigan State(morons)
Stiller or Pats fanatics
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2011, 07:00:42 AM
Well I hope you workaholics get decent overtime money for slaving away for other people's profit.
If yes, all is well. If not, you are the crazy ones, not the people who are fine with working 40 hours, especially if they get the same money you do. And if thats roughly the same job too, then you overtimers are the suckers, and you need to realize that.
Me? I have kept it strict principle to never take work home. It is gI have worked overtime a lot of times, on multiple occassions I ended up helping other guys/teams overtime without financial compensation, when shit hit the fan and I stayed in to clear it up. But I work to live not the other way around.
You don't get paid overtime in my profession. In fact, usually being paid overtime is a good indicator that you are rather low in the professional hierarchy - managers and the like usually do not get paid overtime.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 08:18:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2011, 07:00:42 AM
Well I hope you workaholics get decent overtime money for slaving away for other people's profit.
If yes, all is well. If not, you are the crazy ones, not the people who are fine with working 40 hours, especially if they get the same money you do. And if thats roughly the same job too, then you overtimers are the suckers, and you need to realize that.
Me? I have kept it strict principle to never take work home. It is gI have worked overtime a lot of times, on multiple occassions I ended up helping other guys/teams overtime without financial compensation, when shit hit the fan and I stayed in to clear it up. But I work to live not the other way around.
You don't get paid overtime in my profession. In fact, usually being paid overtime is a good indicator that you are rather low in the professional hierarchy - managers and the like usually do not get paid overtime.
yeah but that echelon earns a shitton of money so really dont have much ground to complain :P
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2011, 08:19:59 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 08:18:24 AM
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2011, 07:00:42 AM
Well I hope you workaholics get decent overtime money for slaving away for other people's profit.
If yes, all is well. If not, you are the crazy ones, not the people who are fine with working 40 hours, especially if they get the same money you do. And if thats roughly the same job too, then you overtimers are the suckers, and you need to realize that.
Me? I have kept it strict principle to never take work home. It is gI have worked overtime a lot of times, on multiple occassions I ended up helping other guys/teams overtime without financial compensation, when shit hit the fan and I stayed in to clear it up. But I work to live not the other way around.
You don't get paid overtime in my profession. In fact, usually being paid overtime is a good indicator that you are rather low in the professional hierarchy - managers and the like usually do not get paid overtime.
yeah but that echelon earns a shitton of money so really dont have much ground to complain :P
Yeah but that's exactly the point Slargos was making.
You have people in jobs like mine earning pretty good cash, without overtime pay, because there is this unwritten agreement that you work hard and you are paid well. Then comes in young lazy shits and think that, since this is basic pay, they should be entitled to it even though they want to leave work at 5 p.m. each day. So they end up being paid shit (the entry pay for trainees today is much lower than it was when I got my job) and complain how unfair it is.
You have the right to be pissed about that of course, but I am sure this is not a generational, but personality issue.
Lazy, self-important pricks were not only recently invented. And I also have problems with those.
But if someone chooses to earn less for less work hours, more power to them.
I haven't been paid overtime since I entered and office environment. :(
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2011, 07:00:42 AM
Well I hope you workaholics get decent overtime money for slaving away for other people's profit.
If yes, all is well. If not, you are the crazy ones, not the people who are fine with working 40 hours, especially if they get the same money you do. And if thats roughly the same job too, then you overtimers are the suckers, and you need to realize that.
Me? I have kept it strict principle to never take work home. It is gI have worked overtime a lot of times, on multiple occassions I ended up helping other guys/teams overtime without financial compensation, when shit hit the fan and I stayed in to clear it up. But I work to live not the other way around.
Actually I looked at my job description recently and there is no mention of hours. I don't make an hourly wage, so the omission isn't strange.
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:24:57 AMNot really. These people do not get hired. But then they go into the streets and protest, like the slackers in Spain or Greece right now.
Let them. They'll learn the hard way then.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 31, 2011, 08:32:31 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 31, 2011, 08:12:51 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 31, 2011, 07:43:16 AM
Ed's hiring process:
Plusses:
Age 30+
Ageist :o
I'm tired of young people.
You're on my list. Lucky for you i'm young(ish) and thus too nmotivated to do anything about it.
Quote from: Tamas on May 31, 2011, 08:33:57 AM
*cue in joke about your wife*
She clearly doesn't like young people either.
I hire Mexicans. They work. :)
My experiences with Gen Y:
1. Get freaked by the fact that they do not recall recent events;
(e.g. 'I barely remember 9/11, I was just 13 at the time' :huh:).
2. Feel old because they can no longer understand normal expressions I use;
(things that used to be said back in the day, but since they refer to things long gone, young adults have no way to understand the meaning)
3. Get weirded out when I see then typing a long SMS under 10 seconds. I need 20 minutes to write "Will be there at 20.30 PM".
4. Get younger managers to deal with them in a day by day basis.
As for their work ethics:
They're lazy. But that applies to every single Portuguese generation since 1540, so I don't feel a difference from my time. The things to look out for are those that go "the extra mile" and reward them accordingly.
I don't get annoyed if someone doesn't work unpaid overtime if they are not in important positions. In fact, we classify people who do so as "suckers", and give them meaningless titles with no extra money, in order to take advantage of their gullibility.
Also, young people are screwed. They get very low wages, often have no job security and their perspective of having a stable work/family life are slim to none. Our young generations don't have a future, and many want out. Going to Germany is an idea for many. The Goethe Institut recorded an increase of 300% of the number of unemployed people registering themselves to learn German, so that they can go to Germany.
Main difference when compared with my generation:
- Very willing to take advantage of Europe to search for opportunity elsewhere.
10 years ago isn't recent. ;)
What's the definition of Y and X?
Quote from: Martim Silva on May 31, 2011, 11:59:21 AMAlso, young people are screwed. They get very low wages, often have no job security and their perspective of having a stable work/family life are slim to none. Our young generations don't have a future, and many want out. Going to Germany is an idea for many. The Goethe Institut recorded an increase of 300% of the number of unemployed people registering themselves to learn German, so that they can go to Germany.
Did they study engineering?
Quote from: bogh on May 31, 2011, 01:48:28 PM
What's the definition of Y and X?
Roughly the generations born before 1980 and after 1980.
Heh. Being born mid 1979, I was unsure of my category...
Well, to answer the original question;
I can't really tell a difference between the Xs and Ys. Plenty of variation in both groups. If anything, the more recent graduates are more focused and have done less dicking about then my generation (since rules are stricter and requirements are higher) when it comes to education. I have no qualms about filling my currently vacant positions with younger people. I am probably just not quite old enough to be really cranky yet.
Guys younger than me haven't done military service. Which kind of says it all.
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2011, 02:27:55 PM
Guys younger than me haven't done military service. Which kind of says it all.
Swedish army? They didn't miss much :P
Quote from: HVC on May 31, 2011, 02:51:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2011, 02:27:55 PM
Guys younger than me haven't done military service. Which kind of says it all.
Swedish army? They didn't miss much :P
FUCK YOU
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2011, 03:26:36 PM
Quote from: HVC on May 31, 2011, 02:51:03 PM
Quote from: The Brain on May 31, 2011, 02:27:55 PM
Guys younger than me haven't done military service. Which kind of says it all.
Swedish army? They didn't miss much :P
FUCK YOU
i am not wearing a sheep custom for you... again
:P
The last American generation that was hardworking, as a group, was the generation that was born before WWII. All the generations since then have been lazy, as a whole. When you're hiring, you look for the exceptions, the people who aren't typical for their generation.
Quote from: dps on May 31, 2011, 07:01:23 PM
The last American generation that was hardworking, as a group, was the generation that was born before WWII. All the generations since then have been lazy, as a whole. When you're hiring, you look for the exceptions, the people who aren't typical for their generation.
Hell, I had my first real 8 hour job when I was 13 shoveling horseshit for the entire summer. The only perk besides pay was horse riding when the owners went home for the day. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:50:58 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 31, 2011, 06:29:41 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 31, 2011, 06:24:04 AM
Yeah. What I think is one of the reasons is that people expect their pay to be a direct function of education/degree, which is simply not the case.
I'd rather hire someone without a degree with 5 years' experience on the job or a freshly-minted DD-214 than someone with a degree right out of college whose only experience the last 5 years was date rape and sleeping in their own beer bong vomit.
Are people you hire among the best paid individuals in your country?
It's a Fortune 150 company, so they make decent bank for what they do. Ergo, they usually wind up hiring the date rapists and vomit sleepers. That's why our HR changed their name to "Talent Acquisition".
I've said it before and I'll say it again. We prefer fresh graduates. They stick around for the next 30 years. People with 5 years of experience all leave in droves within the first year, if not the first month.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 31, 2011, 09:02:28 PM
That's why our HR changed their name to "Talent Acquisition".
:bleeding:
Quote from: Monoriu on May 31, 2011, 09:12:10 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again. We prefer fresh graduates. They stick around for the next 30 years. People with 5 years of experience all leave in droves within the first year, if not the first month.
That should tell you something... ( :secret: that the people with experience realize other jobs out there are much better)
Quote from: bogh on May 31, 2011, 01:56:09 PM
Heh. Being born mid 1979, I was unsure of my category...
I was born
in 1980, so I'm even more confused. :P
My parents are Boomers, though ('46 and '52), so in most respects I'm more Gen X than Gen Y. My sister is a more interesting specimen, as she's 5 years younger than me but thinks the same of her own generation as most of the opinions expressed here.
Martinus, don't you work at a big law firm? And haven't they always been notorious for bringing on a bunch of fresh faced graduates and working them to death until only a few are left? If your firm is like most, you can't compare the new hires to yourself and the other people of your generation in the firm without also considering the majority have departed. And I doubt it is anything new that most of your new hires won't make it because the lifestyle is too demanding. I actually would think higher of them that they give a bunch of blowback before they decide to quit rather than meekly going out the door without complaining.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on May 31, 2011, 09:35:26 PM
Quote from: bogh on May 31, 2011, 01:56:09 PM
Heh. Being born mid 1979, I was unsure of my category...
I was born in 1980, so I'm even more confused. :P
My parents are Boomers, though ('46 and '52), so in most respects I'm more Gen X than Gen Y. My sister is a more interesting specimen, as she's 5 years younger than me but thinks the same of her own generation as most of the opinions expressed here.
I was born in '82 and my sister in '85 and our parents are boomers as well.
I also have a hard time relating because my company, by and large, is still run by friggin Boomers.
Quote from: alfred russel on May 31, 2011, 09:36:56 PM
Martinus, don't you work at a big law firm? And haven't they always been notorious for bringing on a bunch of fresh faced graduates and working them to death until only a few are left? If your firm is like most, you can't compare the new hires to yourself and the other people of your generation in the firm without also considering the majority have departed. And I doubt it is anything new that most of your new hires won't make it because the lifestyle is too demanding. I actually would think higher of them that they give a bunch of blowback before they decide to quit rather than meekly going out the door without complaining.
I guess you have a point. The thing is, people who would go into big law firms in my generation would accept that kind of lifestyle (or they wouldn't go there). Now people seem to expect these rules to be adapted to them (while still earning the kind of money people do in this line of work).
That being said, I stopped telling my non-lawyer friends how much I earn (it is more acceptable in Poland than e.g. in Anglosaxon countries to ask someone how much they earn, btw) - the money we get is insane compared to the rest of the society. I just a got an annual bonus which is pretty much equal to what an average family of two working people earns in a year. :Embarrass:
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:34:50 AM
Quote from: alfred russel on May 31, 2011, 09:36:56 PM
Martinus, don't you work at a big law firm? And haven't they always been notorious for bringing on a bunch of fresh faced graduates and working them to death until only a few are left? If your firm is like most, you can't compare the new hires to yourself and the other people of your generation in the firm without also considering the majority have departed. And I doubt it is anything new that most of your new hires won't make it because the lifestyle is too demanding. I actually would think higher of them that they give a bunch of blowback before they decide to quit rather than meekly going out the door without complaining.
I guess you have a point. The thing is, people who would go into big law firms in my generation would accept that kind of lifestyle (or they wouldn't go there). Now people seem to expect these rules to be adapted to them (while still earning the kind of money people do in this line of work).
Spot on.
When I started, I wasn't so much told that it was going to be massively hard work initially as I simply read between the lines. So I went into the job expecting to work long hours. And the first 6 months I did. It was grueling work.
When I was then placed in a position to handle the 20-something new guys, I knew that the most important advice I could give them was to expect more of the same. "
Oh, sure" they would invariably reply, "
I can do it. Give me a stack of contracts and make sure to call the printers for more."
But no. No they couldn't.
I told you before you started that you would have to expect several 12-hour days per week, and more weekends than not, and you told me you were up to this you worthless sons of bitches.
Kids these days. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:34:50 AMThat being said, I stopped telling my non-lawyer friends how much I earn (it is more acceptable in Poland than e.g. in Anglosaxon countries to ask someone how much they earn, btw) - the money we get is insane compared to the rest of the society. I just a got an annual bonus which is pretty much equal to what an average family of two working people earns in a year. :Embarrass:
That's the standard procedure (getting paid insane amounts of money) for that kind of super demanding jobs. One of my best friends works in banking and he follows a similar routine. He works extremely long hours (his company's computers have a built-in alarm that kicks off at 22h advising them to go home) with gruesome performance targets, unpaid overtime as far as the eye can see from the very first day in the lowest positions, and it gets tougher as you go up. He's loosing hair in droves but he's been able to buy at 28 the kind of car (a shiny BMW) somebody going through his mid-life crisis in his 40s or 50s would buy.
He says "Yes, I get paid very well, extremely well, but my employer takes its toll in blood".
How do you deal with the problem of people refusing to work super long hours? As I see it, the solution is to fire them until you find someone who is willing to work these hours.
One thing I always mention as by far my biggest surprise entering the working world, is how what I considered to be the default requirement -ie. doing precise work on time and not just aiming to semi-bluff your way into survival- is actually somewhat above the norm, and has helped me to regular salary rises and a slow but steady climb of the ladder.
Make that what you will regarding your theories.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on May 31, 2011, 09:38:45 PM
I also have a hard time relating because my company, by and large, is still run by friggin Boomers.
The ponytails and pot must really be annoying.
Quote from: Martinus on June 01, 2011, 01:34:50 AM
I just a got an annual bonus which is pretty much equal to what an average family of two working people earns in a year. :Embarrass:
ERROR! STATEMENT/SMILIE CONFLICT. EXIT PROGRAM.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 01, 2011, 02:51:46 AM
How do you deal with the problem of people refusing to work super long hours? As I see it, the solution is to fire them until you find someone who is willing to work these hours.
Well that's how the big lawfirms do it.