http://www.salon.com/life/feature/2011/05/02/sex_internet/index.html
QuoteThe new book "A Billion Wicked Thoughts" by neuroscientists Ogi Ogas and Sai Gaddam mines some of that evidence -- including a billion Web searches, like the ones above, and millions of websites, porn videos, online erotica and personal ads -- for insights on desire.
As far as men's interest in pornography goes, what of your findings were actually surprising? Because a lot of it -- like the interest in large breasts -- is totally expected.
I'll give you the top three. No. 1 is that men prefer overweight women to underweight women. There are almost three times as many searches for fat women as there are for skinny women, and lest you think that's some way we treated the search data, this is also reflected in popularity on adult sites. There are many more video sites devoted to overweight women than underweight women. Now, I should say as a caveat that men prefer healthy weight women overall. But if the choice is between a woman with a few extra pounds or a few less pounds, most guys will choose more pounds.
Another big surprise was the age of women that men search for. As expected, the dominant preference was for young women as close to the teen years as possible, but to our surprise there was also very substantial interest in older women in their 40s, 50s, even in their 60s and 70s. In fact, there's a particular genre of porn called "granny porn," which is just like it sounds. Though it's not nearly as popular as teen porn, it's one of the 50 most popular interests among men. So clearly there's something going on there, and it's something completely not expected by conventional wisdom or the contemporary science on sexuality. [Editor's note: Keep in mind that plenty of porn searches don't include any age specification, and youth may be implied in a search for, say, "hot women."]
The third big surprise was the parts of anatomy that men prefer. It turns out that heterosexual men very much like looking at penises.
There's pretty overwhelming evidence for it: Men search for penises almost as often as they search for vaginas. There's about a thousand heterosexual sites dedicated to large penises, and large penises are a category of erotica in all the major porn video sites. We think the reason for this is because it's actually from our evolutionary heritage. If you look at all the other primates, the penis is a prominent and versatile social tool used for many different purposes -- to indicate aggression, to mark territory, to indicated sexual interest. The penis may also function as a sperm competition cue. That is a very specific hard-wired cue for men to trigger arousal -- basically if a man has a reason to think that a woman recently had sex with a man it makes him more aroused and the penis must play a role in that.
Fat women? Penises? WTF?
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2011, 09:19:38 AM
Fat women? Penises? WTF?
I left out the bit about the similarities between gay male and straight male sexuality as it didn't strike me as convincing.
Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2011, 09:22:50 AM
I left out the bit about the similarities between gay male and straight male sexuality as it didn't strike me as convincing.
Gay men search for fat men and vaginas eh?
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2011, 09:24:12 AM
Gay men search for fat men and vaginas eh?
Yes and no.
The only thing that really surprised me was the "third big surprise". I would think most guys would go out of their way to avoid seeing that.
I think the results may be skewed because people attracted to "mainstream" porn can find it on a number of easily available porn websites they already know and frequent, so they won't be searching for it, whereas people who are into more niche/unusual fetishes would actively search for it. Plus there is a factor of kids/people searching for "weird stuff", out of morbid curiosity rather than actual sexual interest.
Also... so straight guys also like feet? :hmm:
Quote from: derspiess on May 03, 2011, 09:39:20 AM
The only thing that really surprised me was the "third big surprise". I would think most guys would go out of their way to avoid seeing that.
http://languish.org/forums/index.php?topic=4949.msg247863#msg247863
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2011, 09:44:34 AM
Also... so straight guys also like feet? :hmm:
Do you remember fhdz?
I haven't "searched" for porn since the 90s.
QuoteI'll give you the top three. No. 1 is that men prefer overweight women to underweight women. There are almost three times as many searches for fat women as there are for skinny women, and lest you think that's some way we treated the search data, this is also reflected in popularity on adult sites. There are many more video sites devoted to overweight women than underweight women. Now, I should say as a caveat that men prefer healthy weight women overall. But if the choice is between a woman with a few extra pounds or a few less pounds, most guys will choose more pounds.
Yes, but I'd imagine more men prefer a girl towards the bottom end of healthy weight than the top end.
Huh. I go against all those trends.
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2011, 09:43:39 AM
I think the results may be skewed because people attracted to "mainstream" porn can find it on a number of easily available porn websites they already know and frequent, so they won't be searching for it, whereas people who are into more niche/unusual fetishes would actively search for it. Plus there is a factor of kids/people searching for "weird stuff", out of morbid curiosity rather than actual sexual interest.
You're probably right.
There is a fair amount of "fat chick" porn, but the thing is, that shit's clearly marked. In the absence of the fat chick tag, which after a few ten thousand surveys I have to believe is
far from the majority of all pornographic media, the expectation is that the woman is traditionally hot, i.e. skinny. You don't go looking for skinny, skinny is the default.
And this "men prefer healthy weight" bullshit. What the fuck does that mean? This is fat people propaganda, and I won't stand for it.
That said, sometimes I check out fat chick porn for a change of pace. You've gotta mix it up.
The thing about dicks makes sense, as all those pornos focused on giant cocks attest. Now, I like to see dicks in my porn--pure lesbian porn is a little boring, because female sexuality was not built with visual storytelling in mind, but I've never really cared about the size of the dick. Maybe it's a wish-fulfillment thing for some people, like how Spider-Man may be a total nerd just like you, the reader, but we all know he's actually totally cool and can beat up the Scorpion and hold really heavy things for plot-determinate amounts of time. I guess some guys take the identification-character thing a little farther than the "organ that shoots semen" level. Or maybe it's just the spectacle.
Still, you'd think that standard-sized cocks might really be preferable, because chicks with no standards are hot, and size queens are not. And in a way they might be preferable, as there's a lot of porn with relatively normal dongs.
The people trying to paint the MILF phenomenon as surprising really ought to catch up with 1999, too.
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2011, 09:44:34 AM
Also... so straight guys also like feet? :hmm:
Maybe some, if it's fetishistic, I guess. Heart wants what it wants, etc. But personally, I think footjobs make some dull-ass porn. It strikes me as about as slow and awkward as you might expect a biped trying to manipulate a sensitive object with its motive limbs would be.
I guess it's this quote?
QuoteThe body parts most preferred by both are chests, butts and feet.
Bullshit bullshit bullshit. Nobody looks up "face" on google. But they do look up
face fucking and
blowjobs and I guarantee those outweigh
pedal sex. And what does this guy think "Asian porn" is all about? When the primary distinction is the facial phenotype (and I might add, that the women ain't fat), what do you think people are looking for? Japanese language lessons? SUGOI SUGOI!
Quote from: Tyr on May 03, 2011, 10:30:31 AM
QuoteI'll give you the top three. No. 1 is that men prefer overweight women to underweight women. There are almost three times as many searches for fat women as there are for skinny women, and lest you think that's some way we treated the search data, this is also reflected in popularity on adult sites. There are many more video sites devoted to overweight women than underweight women. Now, I should say as a caveat that men prefer healthy weight women overall. But if the choice is between a woman with a few extra pounds or a few less pounds, most guys will choose more pounds.
Yes, but I'd imagine more men prefer a girl towards the bottom end of healthy weight than the top end.
I doubt it, and this suggests the opposite.
What Idy Log said. Anyone who searches for skinny is looking for anorexia sites. Those are fucking nasty.
Quote from: Maximus on May 03, 2011, 11:27:17 AM
Quote from: Tyr on May 03, 2011, 10:30:31 AM
QuoteI'll give you the top three. No. 1 is that men prefer overweight women to underweight women. There are almost three times as many searches for fat women as there are for skinny women, and lest you think that's some way we treated the search data, this is also reflected in popularity on adult sites. There are many more video sites devoted to overweight women than underweight women. Now, I should say as a caveat that men prefer healthy weight women overall. But if the choice is between a woman with a few extra pounds or a few less pounds, most guys will choose more pounds.
Yes, but I'd imagine more men prefer a girl towards the bottom end of healthy weight than the top end.
I doubt it, and this suggests the opposite.
No, this suggests guys prefer a woman who is overweight to one who is underweight. Which is pretty common sense to me, underweight is just....eww. Verging on necrophillia. Just wrong.
It says nothing about whether they like healthy, slim women or chubby women normally.
I'd imagine the 'distribution of preference' (or something along those lines curves up very steeply as the thiness stops being medically unsafe and just becomes slim, peaking towards the slim end of normal, then it has a slower shallower decline into fatness.
Quote from: Tyr on May 03, 2011, 01:10:50 PM
It says nothing about whether they like healthy, slim women or chubby women normally.
:huh:
QuoteNow, I should say as a caveat that men prefer healthy weight women overall. But if the choice is between a woman with a few extra pounds or a few less pounds, most guys will choose more pounds.
Quote from: garbon on May 03, 2011, 01:21:08 PM
Quote from: Tyr on May 03, 2011, 01:10:50 PM
It says nothing about whether they like healthy, slim women or chubby women normally.
:huh:
QuoteNow, I should say as a caveat that men prefer healthy weight women overall. But if the choice is between a woman with a few extra pounds or a few less pounds, most guys will choose more pounds.
:huh:
It says men prefer healthy women but prefer those a bit over healthy to those under healthy.
Whew. :unsure:
Here is what I learn about porn on the internet: if it's physically possible, there's a fetish site for this. If it's physically impossible, there's an anime porn site for it. There's a lot of sickos out there. No need for some elaborate studies on this.
I'm guessing that looking up "hardcore" counts as looking up "penises" in this study.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 03, 2011, 01:42:32 PM
I'm guessing that looking up "hardcore" counts as looking up "penises" in this study.
:lol:
I figured probably more "huge black cock tiny white girl" shit. Who the audience is for that, I don't know, although it is large. If it's black guys, that has its own set of problems, albeit minimal--heck, I prefer a white guy to be chucking the spear, so if a black guy wants someone he can identify with racially as well as sexually, more power. But some things I've read indicate the actual audience is self-loathing honkies, which is just bizarre.
I guess it could be both.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on May 03, 2011, 01:42:32 PM
I'm guessing that looking up "hardcore" counts as looking up "penises" in this study.
:lol:
I figured probably more "huge black cock tiny white girl" shit. Who the audience is for that, I don't know, although it is large. If it's black guys, that has its own set of problems, albeit minimal--heck, I prefer a white guy to be chucking the spear, so if a black guy wants someone he can identify with racially as well as sexually, more power. But some things I've read indicate the actual audience is self-loathing honkies, which is just bizarre.
I guess it could be both.
I think CdM is into that stuff.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
:lol:
I figured probably more "huge black cock tiny white girl" shit. Who the audience is for that, I don't know, although it is large. If it's black guys, that has its own set of problems, albeit minimal--heck, I prefer a white guy to be chucking the spear, so if a black guy wants someone he can identify with racially as well as sexually, more power. But some things I've read indicate the actual audience is self-loathing honkies, which is just bizarre.
I guess it could be both.
Well, it's been argued that porn is as much about power dynamics as it is about sex, or that sex is mostly power dynamics; something like that.
Given how big a factor race plays in American discourse, it's safe to say that a black man doing [insert sexual act of choice] with/ to a white woman has different connotations than white on white. I'm sure there are people for whom that power dynamic is more interesting than their ability to identify with one of the participants through race.
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2011, 03:15:16 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
:lol:
I figured probably more "huge black cock tiny white girl" shit. Who the audience is for that, I don't know, although it is large. If it's black guys, that has its own set of problems, albeit minimal--heck, I prefer a white guy to be chucking the spear, so if a black guy wants someone he can identify with racially as well as sexually, more power. But some things I've read indicate the actual audience is self-loathing honkies, which is just bizarre.
I guess it could be both.
Well, it's been argued that porn is as much about power dynamics as it is about sex, or that sex is mostly power dynamics; something like that.
Given how big a factor race plays in American discourse, it's safe to say that a black man doing [insert sexual act of choice] with/ to a white woman has different connotations than white on white. I'm sure there are people for whom that power dynamic is more interesting than their ability to identify with one of the participants through race.
I.e., it's more humiliating or damaging to the white woman's sexuality, and therefore more of a turn-on for weird, damaged people? I guess that reads. Or do you mean that the viewer wishes to identify with the largely mythical sexual prowess of the black male?
wouldn't the big dick searches be from the desire to see a woman get fucked hard rather than actually wanting to look at a penis? i don't watch porn, i read it, but i assume it's similar. there are stories like that on, say, literotica
Can a woman only be "fucked hard" by a big penis?
Quote from: viper37 on May 03, 2011, 01:38:19 PM
Here is what I learn about porn on the internet: if it's physically possible, there's a fetish site for this. If it's physically impossible, there's an anime porn site for it. There's a lot of sickos out there. No need for some elaborate studies on this.
But it is usually of poor quality :(
of course not, but wouldn't that be their assumption?
Quote from: Valmy on May 03, 2011, 09:19:38 AM
Fat women? Penises? WTF?
It's apparent that far too many black men on the down-low have access to the internet.
People are freaks.
Quote from: Habbaku on May 03, 2011, 03:57:06 PM
Can a woman only be "fucked hard" by a big penis?
Not from the Japanese porn I've seen. Those chicks scream like banshees with their hand caught in a car door.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 04:38:08 PM
Not from the Japanese porn I've seen. Those chicks scream like banshees with their hand caught in a car door.
Bungee cords can really pinch the skin.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 04:38:08 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 03, 2011, 03:57:06 PM
Can a woman only be "fucked hard" by a big penis?
Not from the Japanese porn I've seen. Those chicks scream like banshees with their hand caught in a car door.
The ones I've seen always look like they are crying. It's kind of disturbing.
Quote from: LaCroix on May 03, 2011, 03:52:18 PM
wouldn't the big dick searches be from the desire to see a woman get fucked hard rather than actually wanting to look at a penis? i don't watch porn, i read it, but i assume it's similar. there are stories like that on, say, literotica
I'm guessing that it's a desire to see the woman degraded or in pain, so yeah, not a desire to see large penises
per se. But I don't know for sure.
Quote from: Razgovory
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 04:38:08 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on May 03, 2011, 03:57:06 PM
Can a woman only be "fucked hard" by a big penis?
Not from the Japanese porn I've seen. Those chicks scream like banshees with their hand caught in a car door.
The ones I've seen always look like they are crying. It's kind of disturbing.
This has got to be a cultural thing, not about either sexual arousal or pain. They often start screaming and crying when a guy unhooks their bra, long before anything has come close to their vaginas.
Yeah, Japanese porn is....weird. Seems to be the done thing for women to look like they're in pain. Hope that doesn't carry over to real Japanese women.
But I tend not to watch Japanese porn. The censorship and over the top focus on the guys sucks.
Quote from: dps on May 03, 2011, 04:49:41 PM
This has got to be a cultural thing, not about either sexual arousal or pain. They often start screaming and crying when a guy unhooks their bra, long before anything has come close to their vaginas.
I think one dominant theme in Nip porn is that the girl is young and innocent and is therefore really, really embarrassed that someone is sticking a toilet plunger up her ass. What will her friends at school think if they find out!! To make it even worse she's really enjoying it!
I've yet to see the snarling femme fatale superslut motif expressed in Nip porn.
Quote from: Tyr on May 03, 2011, 04:57:11 PM
But I tend not to watch Japanese porn. The censorship and over the top focus on the guys sucks.
Yeah, the censorship turns most of it into what is effectively softcore, so it's not something you'd really want if you're looking for hardcore. (My understanding is that the censorship laws there has eased slightly, so there is actual uncersored Japanese hardcore now, but apparantly it's not easily available. At least, I've never stumbled across any--I don't particularly search for it--not counting American made stuff featuring American women of Asian extraction.)
BTW, some of the Japanese porn that I have stumbled onto, contrary to what Ide says, does feature non-skinny, well endowed women. In fact, the Japanese porn actresses who are big-titted tend to be
very big-titted, and almost all of them appear to be natural. (While I don't particularly look for Japanese or Asian women in general, as everybody probably should realize, I do look for big tits.)
I don't like black dude-white girl porn, but I do like white dude-black girl porn. :hmm:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2011, 05:01:43 PM
Quote from: dps on May 03, 2011, 04:49:41 PM
This has got to be a cultural thing, not about either sexual arousal or pain. They often start screaming and crying when a guy unhooks their bra, long before anything has come close to their vaginas.
I think one dominant theme in Nip porn is that the girl is young and innocent and is therefore really, really embarrassed that someone is sticking a toilet plunger up her ass. What will her friends at school think if they find out!! To make it even worse she's really enjoying it!
I've yet to see the snarling femme fatale superslut motif expressed in Nip porn.
I dunno, I get the feeling the dominant theme in Japanese porn is Rape. I find it really creepy.
Rule #34. Rules of the Internet.
Quote from: Razgovory on May 03, 2011, 05:35:24 PM
I dunno, I get the feeling the dominant theme in Japanese porn is Rape. I find it really creepy.
Well, it's hard to produce shame and lust in an innocent victim without some sort of coerced sex act.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 03:31:34 PMI.e., it's more humiliating or damaging to the white woman's sexuality, and therefore more of a turn-on for weird, damaged people? I guess that reads. Or do you mean that the viewer wishes to identify with the largely mythical sexual prowess of the black male?
I think there are some people for whom humiliation matters, and it's more humiliating in their view for a white woman to be fucked by black guy. For others, it's transgression that matters and black on white sex is more transgressive against social norms than sex between people of the same race; white girls aren't "supposed" to fuck black guys so when that happens that makes it hotter.
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2011, 05:44:07 PM
I think there are some people for whom humiliation matters, and it's more humiliating in their view for a white woman to be fucked by black guy. For others, it's transgression that matters and black on white sex is more transgressive against social norms than sex between people of the same race; white girls aren't "supposed" to fuck black guys so when that happens that makes it hotter.
Agreed. Same basic motivation as with bestiality, incest porn, or women who stick a Pontiac up their ass-porn. In this genre the women don't have to be compelled; they can do it for pleasure but it's still taboo and deviant.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on May 03, 2011, 05:01:43 PM
Quote from: dps on May 03, 2011, 04:49:41 PM
This has got to be a cultural thing, not about either sexual arousal or pain. They often start screaming and crying when a guy unhooks their bra, long before anything has come close to their vaginas.
I think one dominant theme in Nip porn is that the girl is young and innocent and is therefore really, really embarrassed that someone is sticking a toilet plunger up her ass. What will her friends at school think if they find out!! To make it even worse she's really enjoying it!
I've yet to see the snarling femme fatale superslut motif expressed in Nip porn.
No, that's available and perhaps becoming more the standard, unless you're strictly in it for the snarling. They're usually super-cutesy--
that's almost universal, but then again that's pleasant and one of the draws--but I've seen robust, assertive performances, e.g. Mizaki Miyu. Those are tons better than the shrinking, abused violets that--I do agree--have historically made up Japanese porn or at least been formative in its public perception.
Quote from: RazI dunno, I get the feeling the dominant theme in Japanese porn is Rape. I find it really creepy.
It's more prevalent in Japanese than American porn. As noted above, I think Japanese pornography might be becoming more progressive as a whole. But to know for sure, I'd have to do a study: all I need is grant money and skin grafts.
It'd be nice if it were. Down with rape; up with whores!
Now Russian porn, there is the fake rape.
The Russian porn I've seen tends to be drunken, verisimilitudinous in its amateur camerawork and use of crappy actual apartments as sets, and orgy-oriented. They're a good people; though backwards, they have a lot to teach us.
A lot of the women in Russian porn are just plain homely, though. Not all of them, but a lot.
Russian porn:
Skinny stick, skinny stick, OMG IS SHE LEGAL?, skinny stick, old woman, skinny stick.
I like the Russian skinny stick body type. Sort of similar to the Montreal hottie stripper type I admired so much.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 03, 2011, 06:46:33 PM
Russian porn:
Skinny stick, skinny stick, OMG IS SHE LEGAL?, skinny stick, old woman, skinny stick.
They have a lot to teach us, indeed. :hmm:
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2011, 05:44:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 03:31:34 PMI.e., it's more humiliating or damaging to the white woman's sexuality, and therefore more of a turn-on for weird, damaged people? I guess that reads. Or do you mean that the viewer wishes to identify with the largely mythical sexual prowess of the black male?
I think there are some people for whom humiliation matters, and it's more humiliating in their view for a white woman to be fucked by black guy. For others, it's transgression that matters and black on white sex is more transgressive against social norms than sex between people of the same race; white girls aren't "supposed" to fuck black guys so when that happens that makes it hotter.
And for some people it's a study in contrast and negative space.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on May 03, 2011, 07:04:52 PM
Quote from: Jacob on May 03, 2011, 05:44:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 03:31:34 PMI.e., it's more humiliating or damaging to the white woman's sexuality, and therefore more of a turn-on for weird, damaged people? I guess that reads. Or do you mean that the viewer wishes to identify with the largely mythical sexual prowess of the black male?
I think there are some people for whom humiliation matters, and it's more humiliating in their view for a white woman to be fucked by black guy. For others, it's transgression that matters and black on white sex is more transgressive against social norms than sex between people of the same race; white girls aren't "supposed" to fuck black guys so when that happens that makes it hotter.
And for some people it's a study in contrast and negative space.
:lol:
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 06:48:53 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 03, 2011, 06:46:33 PM
Russian porn:
Skinny stick, skinny stick, OMG IS SHE LEGAL?, skinny stick, old woman, skinny stick.
They have a lot to teach us, indeed. :hmm:
That shit gets old after a while. I want to see some amputee porn sometimes.
Quote from: Ed Anger on May 03, 2011, 06:46:33 PM
Russian porn:
Skinny stick, skinny stick, OMG IS SHE LEGAL?, skinny stick, old woman, skinny stick.
Some of the girls are quite pretty, but it's best to get a some eastern European chicks with some Western productions. The French do good at this. Except they have some weird thing where every scene needs at least two dicks.
Good God, I just found something out that is horrifying: pornography (of any sort) appears to be illegal in the Ukraine? Stalin was right.
Quote from: RazgovorySome of the girls are quite pretty, but it's best to get a some eastern European chicks with some Western productions. The French do good at this. Except they have some weird thing where every scene needs at least two dicks.
The French did good with Katsuni. They did poorly in forcing her to change her performing name, for reasons I'm sure make sense to an idiot French judge and Mary Katsumi. COLONIALISM WORKS.
Edit: I also just learned a new word--irrumation. That's Latin way for face fuck. :smarty:
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 08:14:33 PM
Good God, I just found something out that is horrifying: pornography (of any sort) appears to be illegal in the Ukraine? Stalin was right.
In Soviet Russia, film rapes you.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 08:14:33 PM
Good God, I just found something out that is horrifying: pornography (of any sort) appears to be illegal in the Ukraine?
Funny. It's their #2 export. Right after credit card fraud.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 03, 2011, 08:14:33 PM
Edit: I also just learned a new word--irrumation. That's Latin way for face fuck. :smarty:
Yes. Irrumator is such a lovely insult/job description for a guy who is on the receiving end of this. :P
I remember that from my Vampire: Rome game - there it is an insult used for the "Daeva" clan (the guys who replaced Toreadors in nWoD). :nerd:
Evidently it was considered quite degrading in Roman times. The Romans really weren't as cool as they're often made out.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 04, 2011, 08:20:31 AM
Evidently it was considered quite degrading in Roman times. The Romans really weren't as cool as they're often made out.
Well, being called a cock-sucker is not exactly the highest praise today either. :P
Quote from: Ideologue on May 04, 2011, 08:20:31 AM
Evidently it was considered quite degrading in Roman times. The Romans really weren't as cool as they're often made out.
Catullus was cool as hell, though. I'm sure he made a lot of nice friends with his smooth writing. :cool:
Quote
Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo,
Aureli pathice et cinaede Furi,
qui me ex versiculis meis putastis,
quod sunt molliculi, parum pudicum.
Nam castum esse decet pium poetam
ipsum, versiculos nihil necessest;
qui tum denique habent salem ac leporem,
si sunt molliculi ac parum pudici
et quod pruriat incitare possunt,
non dico pueris, sed his pilosis
qui duros nequeunt movere lumbos.
Vos, quod milia multa basiorum
legistis, male me marem putatis?
Pedicabo ego vos et irrumabo.
For those of us who are not fluent in Latin? :D
Quote from: Malthus on May 04, 2011, 09:27:31 AM
For those of us who are not fluent in Latin? :D
QuoteCatullus 16 :
I will sodomize you and face-fuck you,
pussy Aurelius and catamite Furius,
you who think, because my poems
are sensitive, that I have no shame.
For it's proper for a devoted poet to be moral
himself, but in no way is it necessary for his poems.
In point of fact, these have wit and charm
if they are sensitive and a little shameless,
and can arouse an itch,
and I don't mean in boys, but in those hairy old men
who can't get it up.
Because you've read my countless kisses,
you think less of me as a man?
I will sodomize you and face-fuck you.
The siege of his time :D
Quote from: HVC on May 04, 2011, 09:30:41 AM
The siege of his time :D
More like the Grallon of his time.
Grallon's not that macho.
Quote from: Malthus on May 04, 2011, 09:27:31 AM
For those of us who are not fluent in Latin? :D
:huh: I'm surprised you've never seen that poem before.
When I was studying Latin in college, one of the goof-offs asked our professor (who was a very prim and proper elderly English lady) if we could read it. Surprisingly, she said "sure!" and led the class in a reading, but then asked the student to translate it to English aloud for the class. He got PWNED. :menace:
edit: FYI I think the poem was originally written because the subjects of it publicly called Catullus a faggot.
Quote from: Drakken on May 04, 2011, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: HVC on May 04, 2011, 09:30:41 AM
The siege of his time :D
More like the Grallon of his time.
I actually think he's kinda like the Mart of his time (see my last post).
Again, not macho enough. Catullus himself may have been more like Marty or Grallon, but that poem is vintage Siegebreaker.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 04, 2011, 09:51:35 AM
Again, not macho enough. Catullus himself may have been more like Marty or Grallon, but that poem is vintage Siegebreaker.
Well, I threw Marti out there because he tends to react violently when people mock him. It seems like Seige doesn't get it a lot of the time when he's being mocked.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 04, 2011, 08:20:31 AM
Evidently it was considered quite degrading in Roman times. The Romans really weren't as cool as they're often made out.
Really? I watched a documentary about Caligula, and it seemed quite widespread.
Quote from: Caliga on May 04, 2011, 09:54:49 AM
Well, I threw Marti out there because he tends to react violently when people mock him. It seems like Seige doesn't get it a lot of the time when he's being mocked.
But when he does he responds Catullus-like. Marty has never threatened anybody with forcible sodomy.
Quote from: Valmy on May 04, 2011, 11:23:42 AM
Quote from: Caliga on May 04, 2011, 09:54:49 AM
Well, I threw Marti out there because he tends to react violently when people mock him. It seems like Seige doesn't get it a lot of the time when he's being mocked.
But when he does he responds Catullus-like. Marty has never threatened anybody with forcible sodomy.
He'd have to actually enjoy it first. :whistle:
:D
Quote from: DGuller on May 04, 2011, 11:12:30 AM
Really? I watched a documentary about Caligula, and it seemed quite widespread.
Romans didn't fuss over homosexuality, but they fussed about men playing the bottom like females, which was considered very unmanly. Brothels were widespread and easy to access, they even had ads in the streets.
Claudius was the first Roman Emperor not to have boy or male lovers, and it was used against him by his opponents. That tells you.
Quote from: Ideologue on May 04, 2011, 08:20:31 AM
Evidently it was considered quite degrading in Roman times. The Romans really weren't as cool as they're often made out.
Well, if I remember various tv documentaries correctly, Romans considered the mouth kind of sacred and therefore oral sex had something slightly forbidden about it, though I guess it would be similar to today's status of (hetero) anal sex?
Quote from: Drakken on May 04, 2011, 11:39:36 AM
Quote from: DGuller on May 04, 2011, 11:12:30 AM
Really? I watched a documentary about Caligula, and it seemed quite widespread.
Romans didn't fuss over homosexuality, but they fussed about men playing the bottom like females, which was considered very unmanly. Brothels were widespread and easy to access, they even had ads in the streets.
This is correct - Romans were okay with guys being pitchers, but catchers were looked down on.
Face-fucking was considered particularly humiliating (moreso than a simple blow job) because it was so passive on the part of the catcher.
Huh. I had the impression that homosexuality in general was looked down upon as a sort of Greek affectation by the Romans.
And even if you did feel like breaking all the sexual taboos that did exist you were ok doing it so long as you were discrete.
As in don't be like Elagabalus.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 04, 2011, 11:48:43 AM
Huh. I had the impression that homosexuality in general was looked down upon as a sort of Greek affectation by the Romans.
Later in the empire, it started to be proscribed. In general, through most of the republican and imperial period, it was looked at as somewhat licencious by the morally-minded, with ridicule reserved for those older men who liked to take the passive role.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_ancient_Rome
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 04, 2011, 11:48:43 AM
Huh. I had the impression that homosexuality in general was looked down upon as a sort of Greek affectation by the Romans.
I seem to recall that there was a class distinction; i.e. the lower classes were less tolerant of homosexuality than the upper classes were. Which probably correlates well with modern society, when you think about it.
Hm, I should re-watch Caligula again, now that I have a larger tv.
Quote from: Malthus on May 04, 2011, 11:53:47 AM
Later in the empire, it started to be proscribed. In general, through most of the republican and imperial period, it was looked at as somewhat licencious by the morally-minded, with ridicule reserved for those older men who liked to take the passive role.
Well duh, of course it did when the empire became staunchly Christian. :D
Quote from: Syt on May 04, 2011, 11:54:59 AM
Hm, I should re-watch Caligula again, now that I have a larger tv.
I like the part when he condemns Gemellus.
"No, Theeeeeeeeeeeeeser.... Nooooooooo....."What a pussy. :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on May 04, 2011, 11:53:47 AM
Later in the empire, it started to be proscribed.
:pope: A clear sign of evil pagan scum
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2011, 09:43:39 AM
I think the results may be skewed because people attracted to "mainstream" porn can find it on a number of easily available porn websites they already know and frequent, so they won't be searching for it, whereas people who are into more niche/unusual fetishes would actively search for it. Plus there is a factor of kids/people searching for "weird stuff", out of morbid curiosity rather than actual sexual interest.
The thing being based on internet search terms is the fatal flaw, of course. Somebody looking for thin or fit girls, for example, would not be searching that as a search term because it's kinda the default. If you want fat, you gotta search "fat". So, yeah. You're right.
Quote from: Caliga on May 04, 2011, 11:55:48 AM
I like the part when he condemns Gemellus.
"No, Theeeeeeeeeeeeeser.... Nooooooooo....."
What a pussy. :lol:
Tiberius already killed everybody in the family who was cool :(
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 04, 2011, 11:57:03 AM
The thing being based on internet search terms is the fatal flaw, of course. Somebody looking for thin or fit girls, for example, would not be searching that as a search term because it's kinda the default. If you want fat, you gotta search "fat". So, yeah. You're right.
Are we talking about Siegey "fat" or cannot-walk-or-stand obesity here?
Also, I liked the part with the wall machine that cuts peoples' heads off. Imagine my disappointment when I discovered such a moving wall execution machine didn't actually exist in ancient Rome. :weep:
Quote from: Malthus on May 04, 2011, 11:47:23 AM
Face-fucking was considered particularly humiliating (moreso than a simple blow job) because it was so passive on the part of the catcher.
It wasn't being done right and/or they didn't know what they were talking about. :blink:
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on May 04, 2011, 11:57:03 AM
Quote from: Martinus on May 03, 2011, 09:43:39 AM
I think the results may be skewed because people attracted to "mainstream" porn can find it on a number of easily available porn websites they already know and frequent, so they won't be searching for it, whereas people who are into more niche/unusual fetishes would actively search for it. Plus there is a factor of kids/people searching for "weird stuff", out of morbid curiosity rather than actual sexual interest.
The thing being based on internet search terms is the fatal flaw, of course. Somebody looking for thin or fit girls, for example, would not be searching that as a search term because it's kinda the default. If you want fat, you gotta search "fat". So, yeah. You're right.
It is unclear to me whether or not they tried to account for that. After all, they said that people who searched for hot woman were lumped under young, as they assumed old was not the default.
Quote from: Malthus on May 04, 2011, 11:47:23 AM
This is correct - Romans were okay with guys being pitchers, but catchers were looked down on.
I don't think that's completely true. Otherwise, why would Sulla have hidden his relationship with Metrobius until he was done with public life?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on May 04, 2011, 12:23:07 PM
Quote from: Malthus on May 04, 2011, 11:47:23 AM
This is correct - Romans were okay with guys being pitchers, but catchers were looked down on.
I don't think that's completely true. Otherwise, why would Sulla have hidden his relationship with Metrobius until he was done with public life?
Because it was considered sorta licentious, particularly by the ultra-conservative. It was thought to be a type of relationship that was all about the sex. A roman marriage, OTOH, was all about the family.
Sort of the same way a single elder statesman today might conceal his affair with a starlet during an election campaign, even though there is nothing "wrong" with it. The mental image of some old dude humping away doesn't comport with dignity - and a gay relationship evidently brought that to mind, for Romans.
Maybe the morals were different in Sulla's day to what came later. Think how quickly morals have changed in the past century in western society.