http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110413/ts_yblog_thelookout/hot-pink-toenailed-boy-in-j-crew-ad-sparks-controversy
QuoteWhen J. Crew sent out its latest catalog, we doubt that the classic clothing company expected it would be blasted by social conservatives as "transgendered child propaganda." But alas, it has.
The images in question fall under pages titled "Saturday with Jenna" -- featuring products personally favored by J. Crew president and creative director Jenna Lyons and her family. This particular Saturday for Jenna includes painting her five-year-old son Beckett's toenails pink. The caption reads, "Lucky for me I ended up with a boy whose favorite color is pink. Toenail painting is way more fun in neon."
Cue the outrage from America's culture warriors.
"Yeah, well, it may be fun and games now, Jenna, but at least put some money aside for psychotherapy for the kid—and maybe a little for others who'll be affected by your 'innocent' pleasure," Dr. Keith Ablow wrote in a Fox News op-ed. "If you have no problem with the J. Crew ad, how about one in which a little boy models a sundress? What could possibly be the problem with that?"
Erin Brown of the Media Research Center took the criticism a step further -- after being sure to remind readers that J. Crew is a fashion favorite of First Lady Michelle Obama -- accusing the company of exploiting young Beckett to advance the cause of "liberal, transgendered identity politics."
The ABC News report on the kerfuffle, below, includes a reaction from Sarah Manley, who set off a similar firestorm last Halloween after posting photos of her young son dressed up as his unconventional idol: Daphne from "Scooby Doo." Manley said today of the J.Crew ad, "If the roles had been reversed and the photo...had been of a little girl playing in the mud with trucks, nobody would have batted an eye."
The Lookout contacted J. Crew to get a response from Lyons, but company spokeswoman Margot Fooshee told us that neither Lyons nor J. Crew would be commenting on the matter. However, others aren't being shy about offering up voracious defenses of the company's creative decision, pushing back on Ablow and Brown as holders of the unpopular opinion.
In another of the many critiques of Dr. Keith's critique, Jeanne Sager, on the parenting blog The Stir, asks: "So go back and look at that picture in the J.Crew ad, will you? What do you see? Do you see pink nail polish on a boy? Or do you see a little boy named Beckett, with beautiful blond curls, and a mom who looks like she is impossibly in love with her kid, in the very best way? Because that's what I see."
Didn't many serial killers start out with their mothers dressing them as members of the opposite sex? :hmm:
QuoteIn another of the many critiques of Dr. Keith's critique, Jeanne Sager, on the parenting blog The Stir, asks: "So go back and look at that picture in the J.Crew ad, will you? What do you see? Do you see pink nail polish on a boy? Or do you see a little boy named Beckett, with beautiful blond curls, and a mom who looks like she is impossibly in love with her kid, in the very best way? Because that's what I see."
So she didnt paint his toenails pink?
Hot??? Fucking pedo. :yucky:
She can't love him that much. She named him Beckett.
Quote from: Martinus on April 13, 2011, 04:27:10 PM
Hot??? Fucking pedo. :yucky:
I'll try my best to explain this to you, since English isn't your native language and you can barely comprehend what little of Hegel you claim to have read.
Hot pink is a color. They aren't saying the child is hot, but that the color is hot pink.
Quote from: JonasSalk on April 13, 2011, 04:31:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on April 13, 2011, 04:27:10 PM
Hot??? Fucking pedo. :yucky:
I'll try my best to explain this to you, since English isn't your native language and you can barely comprehend what little of Hegel you claim to have read.
Hot pink is a color. They aren't saying the child is hot, but that the color is hot pink.
Your naivete is cute. Fortunately, I can spot pedophile agenda even if hidden.
Once again Marti is conflicted. Is he really a gay polish lawyer or his he an American trucker fighting in the social warfare trenches.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 13, 2011, 04:35:15 PM
Once again Marti is conflicted. Is he really a gay polish lawyer or his he an American trucker fighting in the social warfare trenches.
I tend to go for a cheap laugh fruit, no matter how low hanging.
I used to paint my toenails as a child along with my sisters. Always felt a bit embarrassed though when I'd go in for a physical.
Quote from: Martinus on April 13, 2011, 04:36:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 13, 2011, 04:35:15 PM
Once again Marti is conflicted. Is he really a gay polish lawyer or his he an American trucker fighting in the social warfare trenches.
I tend to go for a cheap laugh fruit, no matter how low hanging.
Who's laughing, fruit?
Marty is a cheap laugh fruit.
Quote from: derspiess on April 13, 2011, 05:27:33 PM
Marty is a cheap laugh fruit.
I didn't know beets were a fruit.
Re: the ad, I really don't give a shit, but it seems pretty obvious that she pushed his "favorite color" of hot pink on him.
Before Tommy was born, I was a little worried my wife would turn him into a big wuss. Argentine men tend to be kind of effeminate, and I thought she might try to raise him in that mold. Plus, she grew up in a female-dominated house and that's pretty much all she knew until we got married.
Little did I know that one of her biggest pet peeves would turn out to be little boys who act like sissies :D
note to teh gayz: none of the above has anything to do with sexuality, so don't even go there.
Quote from: Martinus on April 13, 2011, 04:32:24 PM
Your naivete is cute. Fortunately, I can spot pedophile agenda even if hidden.
I would imagine you can, Mr. NAMBLA.
In my mam's class at school there's a little boy obsessed with princesses, is always dressing up and says when he's older he wants to live in a castle so he can be one. Normal working class kid with regular parents there. Some kids are just like that.
Quote from: Tyr on April 13, 2011, 07:39:23 PM
In my mam's class at school there's a little boy obsessed with princesses, is always dressing up and says when he's older he wants to live in a castle so he can be one. Normal working class kid with regular parents there. Some kids are just like that.
Yeah how dare he have other preferences! :angry:
Quote from: Tyr on April 13, 2011, 07:39:23 PM
In my mam's class at school there's a little boy obsessed with princesses, is always dressing up and says when he's older he wants to live in a castle so he can be one. Normal working class kid with regular parents there. Some kids are just like that.
Sure. But it's rare, is it not? And given that this gal apparently really wanted a boy who likes hot pink, it just seems like too much of a coincidence.
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2011, 08:37:55 PM
Yeah how dare he have other preferences! :angry:
His parents need to take corrective action. We have established gender roles for good reason, and they need to be gently reinforced :bash:
Quote from: derspiess on April 13, 2011, 09:32:59 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2011, 08:37:55 PM
Yeah how dare he have other preferences! :angry:
His parents need to take corrective action. We have established gender roles for good reason, and they need to be gently reinforced :bash:
This is the 21st century. Die already, troglodyte. :P
The nail polish will wash off. He'll be named Beckett forever.
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2011, 04:36:32 PM
I used to paint my toenails as a child along with my sisters. Always felt a bit embarrassed though when I'd go in for a physical.
And you turned out all right. :contract:
Martinus hates the concept of hot pink toenail polish on this kid. Leaves an aftertaste.
Quote from: DGuller on April 13, 2011, 10:05:16 PM
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2011, 04:36:32 PM
I used to paint my toenails as a child along with my sisters. Always felt a bit embarrassed though when I'd go in for a physical.
And you turned out all right. :contract:
Sure enough. Even with that bit of downturn in my mental health, I probably have a nicer life than many in America, let alone the world.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2011, 10:06:26 PM
Martinus hates the concept of hot pink toenail polish on this kid. Leaves an aftertaste.
:pinch: :pinch: :pinch: :lmfao:
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2011, 10:06:26 PM
Martinus hates the concept of hot pink toenail polish on this kid. Leaves an aftertaste.
:lol:
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2011, 04:09:58 PM
"Yeah, well, it may be fun and games now, Jenna, but at least put some money aside for psychotherapy for the kid—and maybe a little for others who'll be affected by your 'innocent' pleasure," Dr. Keith Ablow wrote in a Fox News op-ed. "If you have no problem with the J. Crew ad, how about one in which a little boy models a sundress? What could possibly be the problem with that?"
We are all going to suffer for this? What a fucking double standard. Nobody flips out when little girls do boy things.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on April 13, 2011, 10:06:26 PM
Martinus hates the concept of hot pink toenail polish on this kid. Leaves an aftertaste.
:lol:
Going on a slight tangent, did any of you guys catch any of the brouhaha about the lactating doll?
QuoteParents' fury as 'totally inappropriate' breastfeeding doll for young girls goes on sale in the U.S.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1370930/Parents-fury-totally-inappropriate-breastfeeding-doll-young-girls-goes-sale-U-S.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1370930/Parents-fury-totally-inappropriate-breastfeeding-doll-young-girls-goes-sale-U-S.html)
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 11:15:50 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 13, 2011, 04:09:58 PM
"Yeah, well, it may be fun and games now, Jenna, but at least put some money aside for psychotherapy for the kid—and maybe a little for others who'll be affected by your 'innocent' pleasure," Dr. Keith Ablow wrote in a Fox News op-ed. "If you have no problem with the J. Crew ad, how about one in which a little boy models a sundress? What could possibly be the problem with that?"
We are all going to suffer for this? What a fucking double standard. Nobody flips out when little girls do boy things.
unless the literally do little boy things, and then people freak out and there are articles about the sexualization of children :P
Quote from: derspiess on April 13, 2011, 05:48:17 PM
Re: the ad, I really don't give a shit, but it seems pretty obvious that she pushed his "favorite color" of hot pink on him.
Before Tommy was born, I was a little worried my wife would turn him into a big wuss. Argentine men tend to be kind of effeminate, and I thought she might try to raise him in that mold. Plus, she grew up in a female-dominated house and that's pretty much all she knew until we got married.
Little did I know that one of her biggest pet peeves would turn out to be little boys who act like sissies :D
note to teh gayz: none of the above has anything to do with sexuality, so don't even go there.
That's right! Enforce those rigid gender roles!
I think we've done little to "enforce" gender roles on baby Timothy. I mean I guess his clothing is obviously boys clothing, but like he can tell from that.
But what I do know is that he likes hitting toys together, making loud noises, and is now fascinated with moving parts and machines. He can amuse himself for 10 minutes just opening and closing a door or a drawer.
And when I took the cordless drill out the other day he was absolutely enthralled. :wub:
And on the other hand he shows little interest in "nurturing" his various stuffed animals, and isn't real big on hugs or kisses.
I'm thinking these gender roles are pretty deeply engrained...
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 13, 2011, 05:48:17 PM
Re: the ad, I really don't give a shit, but it seems pretty obvious that she pushed his "favorite color" of hot pink on him.
Before Tommy was born, I was a little worried my wife would turn him into a big wuss. Argentine men tend to be kind of effeminate, and I thought she might try to raise him in that mold. Plus, she grew up in a female-dominated house and that's pretty much all she knew until we got married.
Little did I know that one of her biggest pet peeves would turn out to be little boys who act like sissies :D
note to teh gayz: none of the above has anything to do with sexuality, so don't even go there.
That's right! Enforce those rigid gender roles!
Someone should have enforced them on you; then you'd like boobies, instead of going for the chicks who look like they've just been liberated from Auschwitz.
But they're so hot.
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2011, 01:03:06 PM
I'm thinking these gender roles are pretty deeply engrained...
I think so as well. If they were socially imprinted then why would there be effiminate boys and masculine girls? People's gender traits come pretty easily and naturally regardless of what they are.
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 01:04:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 14, 2011, 01:03:06 PM
I'm thinking these gender roles are pretty deeply engrained...
I think so as well. If they were socially imprinted then why would there be effiminate boys and masculine girls? People's gender traits come pretty easily and naturally regardless of what they are.
Without getting too far down the rabbit-hole of whether there are serious biologically-based personality differences in women and men (I freely admit there are, albeit fewer than most people believe), almost all of the tokens of gender role are entirely arbitrary. The color blue, pants, and aversion to makeup are all purely social conventions.
Besides, in all seriousness, I'd think being unsupportive of a "sissy" kid who didn't want to play football or who has a genuine gender identity disorder could be very problematic. If for no other reason than it doesn't
work.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:09:56 PM
The color blue, pants, and aversion to makeup are all purely social conventions.
Well yes those things are obviously arbitrary. The embracing of a female vs. male identity and the traits that go with that are not.
Heh, there was a school event where everyone was supposed to wear pink, to support anti-bullying or somesuch.
Carl simply refused. We eventually compromised on a sort of red. :lol:
Dunno where he got it from, but at 5 they are already internalizing gender roles like crazy.
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 01:14:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:09:56 PM
The color blue, pants, and aversion to makeup are all purely social conventions.
Well yes those things are obviously arbitrary. The embracing of a female vs. male identity and the traits that go with that are not.
I'm not totally convinced inborn ones should be considered gender traits rather than personality traits. On a tactical level, it's almost certainly best to treat them as the latter.
And imposing them from without--and I mean indirectly, through a bifurcated socialization process, not accusing anyone of anything not commonplace--is just continuing a trend that has basically failed for a few ten thousand years.
Quote from: MalthusDunno where he got it from
Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value? :hmm:
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 01:14:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:09:56 PM
The color blue, pants, and aversion to makeup are all purely social conventions.
Well yes those things are obviously arbitrary. The embracing of a female vs. male identity and the traits that go with that are not.
I'm not totally convinced inborn ones should be considered gender traits rather than personality traits. On a tactical level, it's almost certainly best to treat them as the latter.
And imposing them from without--and I mean indirectly, through a bifurcated socialization process, not accusing anyone of anything not commonplace--is just continuing a trend that has basically failed for a few ten thousand years.
Quote from: MalthusDunno where he got it from
Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value? :hmm:
I agree with all of that. :hug:
:hug:
I got all sexually political at some point in the past few years. Have no real idea why.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
I'm not totally convinced inborn ones should be considered gender traits rather than personality traits. On a tactical level, it's almost certainly best to treat them as the latter.
Well yes. Boys just tend to have certain personality traits and girls others. There are also supposedly some chemical differences in the brain but even then I doubt it is a completely binary system and anyway I am hardly some brain expert.
In the end I prefer for individuals to be individuals and just because boys tend to have certain traits should not mean that they should have those traits or there is something wrong if they do not. But ultimately I think who people are is very deeply ingrained. This may or may not conform to who society thinks they should be.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value? :hmm:
Yet another normal boy may want to wear pink and identify with it.
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 01:43:25 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
I'm not totally convinced inborn ones should be considered gender traits rather than personality traits. On a tactical level, it's almost certainly best to treat them as the latter.
Well yes. Boys just tend to have certain personality traits and girls others. There are also supposedly some chemical differences in the brain but even then I doubt it is a completely binary system and anyway I am hardly some brain expert.
In the end I prefer for individuals to be individuals and just because boys tend to have certain traits should not mean that they should have those traits or there is something wrong if they do not. But ultimately I think who people are is very deeply ingrained. This may or may not conform to who society thinks they should be.
Ah, I see. I don't think we were arguing on anything substantial, then. :)
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value? :hmm:
Yet another normal boy may want to wear pink and identify with it.
Sure, it's possible he just hates the color. Anecdotally speaking, I didn't like pink when I was a kid, though, and I'm sure that was external--I like pink okay now (it's not my best color, but it's not horrible).
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value? :hmm:
Yet another normal boy may want to wear pink and identify with it.
in ye olde times blue was a baby girls colour and pink a baby boys. not sure when it changed. Probably like in this example when a women really wanted a daughter and started dressing up her kid in blue.
Quote from: HVC on April 14, 2011, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value? :hmm:
Yet another normal boy may want to wear pink and identify with it.
in ye olde times blue was a baby girls colour and pink a baby boys. not sure when it changed. Probably like in this example when a women really wanted a daughter and started dressing up her kid in blue.
Something I need to look up is when it became de rigeur for women to shave their legs. That may not be entirely arbitrary (there may be some selective advantage to hairlessness, and faking it in the phenotype is enough to fool the genotype responsible for the attraction), but it still seems a bit strange.
Quote from: HVC on April 14, 2011, 01:53:18 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 01:47:14 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value? :hmm:
Yet another normal boy may want to wear pink and identify with it.
in ye olde times blue was a baby girls colour and pink a baby boys. not sure when it changed. Probably like in this example when a women really wanted a daughter and started dressing up her kid in blue.
I read about that just recently, but don't remember where I read it, unfortunately. The change was more recent than you might think. Sometime around WWII, IIRC.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:56:20 PM
Something I need to look up is when it became de rigeur for women to shave their legs. That may not be entirely arbitrary (there may be some selective advantage to hairlessness, and faking it in the phenotype is enough to fool the genotype responsible for the attraction), but it still seems a bit strange.
It was done during rationing during WWII to make it look like they are wearing stockings I heard. But I didn't fact check that so it maybe just a legend.
Anyway the hairlessness suggests youth and that is the advantage IMO.
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 02:02:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:56:20 PM
Something I need to look up is when it became de rigeur for women to shave their legs. That may not be entirely arbitrary (there may be some selective advantage to hairlessness, and faking it in the phenotype is enough to fool the genotype responsible for the attraction), but it still seems a bit strange.
It was done during rationing during WWII to make it look like they are wearing stockings I heard. But I didn't fact check that so it maybe just a legend.
Anyway the hairlessness suggests youth and that is the advantage IMO.
And they used to use tea to dye their legs. Wacky 1940's dames.
Throughout the ages there have been different cultures that have shaved. Has to be more then just stockings.
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2011, 02:02:07 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:56:20 PM
Something I need to look up is when it became de rigeur for women to shave their legs. That may not be entirely arbitrary (there may be some selective advantage to hairlessness, and faking it in the phenotype is enough to fool the genotype responsible for the attraction), but it still seems a bit strange.
It was done during rationing during WWII to make it look like they are wearing stockings I heard. But I didn't fact check that so it maybe just a legend.
Anyway the hairlessness suggests youth and that is the advantage IMO.
When do women first get hair on their legs? Is it not, like, around the same time as menarche? Which is to say, around twelve or thirteen? : /
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 12:59:37 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 13, 2011, 05:48:17 PM
Re: the ad, I really don't give a shit, but it seems pretty obvious that she pushed his "favorite color" of hot pink on him.
Before Tommy was born, I was a little worried my wife would turn him into a big wuss. Argentine men tend to be kind of effeminate, and I thought she might try to raise him in that mold. Plus, she grew up in a female-dominated house and that's pretty much all she knew until we got married.
Little did I know that one of her biggest pet peeves would turn out to be little boys who act like sissies :D
note to teh gayz: none of the above has anything to do with sexuality, so don't even go there.
That's right! Enforce those rigid gender roles!
If anything, I'm having to put the brakes on some of Tommy's masculine tendencies, lest I end up with broken windows, holes in the wall, etc.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 02:18:28 PM
When do women first get hair on their legs? Is it not, like, around the same time as menarche? Which is to say, around twelve or thirteen? : /
Didn't you guys have sex-ed in school?
You see, there's this phase called 'puberty'...
Quote from: Neil on April 14, 2011, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 02:18:28 PM
When do women first get hair on their legs? Is it not, like, around the same time as menarche? Which is to say, around twelve or thirteen? : /
Didn't you guys have sex-ed in school?
You see, there's this phase called 'puberty'...
They were rhetorical questions. :unsure:
The point is, if it's hairless (or only vellus hair) there, the indication is that she's an adolescent. It's a bit of an ephebophilic response, if Valmy is correct.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 01:21:00 PM
Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value? :hmm:
In this case, though, it would be socially stigmatizing to *not* wear pink. ;)
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 02:31:47 PM
Quote from: Neil on April 14, 2011, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 02:18:28 PM
When do women first get hair on their legs? Is it not, like, around the same time as menarche? Which is to say, around twelve or thirteen? : /
Didn't you guys have sex-ed in school?
You see, there's this phase called 'puberty'...
They were rhetorical questions. :unsure:
The point is, if it's hairless (or only vellus hair) there, the indication is that she's an adolescent. It's a bit of an ephebophilic response, if Valmy is correct.
Ephebophilia is extremely common, especially because it's been so heavily cultivated by our culture.
I think the fact that hair collects sweat and thus stink probably has a lot to do with it.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 14, 2011, 06:40:23 PM
I think the fact that hair collects sweat and thus stink probably has a lot to do with it.
Well, that's why I shave
my armpits. Why doesn't everyone?
Quote from: NeilEphebophilia is extremely common, especially because it's been so heavily cultivated by our culture.
I get accused of it all the time just because I like skinny chicks. It's a bummer.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 14, 2011, 06:44:18 PM
I get accused of it all the time just because I like skinny chicks. It's a bummer.
Probably jealous faggots.
A possibility. :hmm: