Hot pink-toenailed boy in J. Crew ad sparks controversy

[Ideologue]

Re: the ad, I really don't give a shit, but it seems pretty obvious that she pushed his "favorite color" of hot pink on him. 

Before Tommy was born, I was a little worried my wife would turn him into a big wuss.  Argentine men tend to be kind of effeminate, and I thought she might try to raise him in that mold.  Plus, she grew up in a female-dominated house and that's pretty much all she knew until we got married.

Little did I know that one of her biggest pet peeves would turn out to be little boys who act like sissies



note to teh gayz: none of the above has anything to do with sexuality, so don't even go there.

That's right!  Enforce those rigid gender roles!

[Barrister]

I think we've done little to "enforce" gender roles on baby Timothy.  I mean I guess his clothing is obviously boys clothing, but like he can tell from that.

But what I do know is that he likes hitting toys together, making loud noises, and is now fascinated with moving parts and machines.  He can amuse himself for 10 minutes just opening and closing a door or a drawer.

And when I took the cordless drill out the other day he was absolutely enthralled.

And on the other hand he shows little interest in "nurturing" his various stuffed animals, and isn't real big on hugs or kisses.

I'm thinking these gender roles are pretty deeply engrained...

[dps]

Re: the ad, I really don't give a shit, but it seems pretty obvious that she pushed his "favorite color" of hot pink on him. 

Before Tommy was born, I was a little worried my wife would turn him into a big wuss.  Argentine men tend to be kind of effeminate, and I thought she might try to raise him in that mold.  Plus, she grew up in a female-dominated house and that's pretty much all she knew until we got married.

Little did I know that one of her biggest pet peeves would turn out to be little boys who act like sissies



note to teh gayz: none of the above has anything to do with sexuality, so don't even go there.

That's right!  Enforce those rigid gender roles!

Someone should have enforced them on you;  then you'd like boobies, instead of going for the chicks who look like they've just been liberated from Auschwitz.

[Ideologue]

But they're so hot.

[Valmy]

I'm thinking these gender roles are pretty deeply engrained...

I think so as well.  If they were socially imprinted then why would there be effiminate boys and masculine girls?  People's gender traits come pretty easily and naturally regardless of what they are.

[Ideologue]

I'm thinking these gender roles are pretty deeply engrained...

I think so as well.  If they were socially imprinted then why would there be effiminate boys and masculine girls?  People's gender traits come pretty easily and naturally regardless of what they are.

Without getting too far down the rabbit-hole of whether there are serious biologically-based personality differences in women and men (I freely admit there are, albeit fewer than most people believe), almost all of the tokens of gender role are entirely arbitrary.  The color blue, pants, and aversion to makeup are all purely social conventions.

Besides, in all seriousness, I'd think being unsupportive of a "sissy" kid who didn't want to play football or who has a genuine gender identity disorder could be very problematic.  If for no other reason than it doesn't work.

[Valmy]

The color blue, pants, and aversion to makeup are all purely social conventions.

Well yes those things are obviously arbitrary. The embracing of a female vs. male identity and the traits that go with that are not.

[Malthus]

Heh, there was a school event where everyone was supposed to wear pink, to support anti-bullying or somesuch.

Carl simply refused. We eventually compromised on a sort of red. 

Dunno where he got it from, but at 5 they are already internalizing gender roles like crazy.

[Ideologue]

The color blue, pants, and aversion to makeup are all purely social conventions.

Well yes those things are obviously arbitrary. The embracing of a female vs. male identity and the traits that go with that are not.

I'm not totally convinced inborn ones should be considered gender traits rather than personality traits.  On a tactical level, it's almost certainly best to treat them as the latter.

And imposing them from without--and I mean indirectly, through a bifurcated socialization process, not accusing anyone of anything not commonplace--is just continuing a trend that has basically failed for a few ten thousand years.

Dunno where he got it from

Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value?

[garbon]

The color blue, pants, and aversion to makeup are all purely social conventions.

Well yes those things are obviously arbitrary. The embracing of a female vs. male identity and the traits that go with that are not.

I'm not totally convinced inborn ones should be considered gender traits rather than personality traits.  On a tactical level, it's almost certainly best to treat them as the latter.

And imposing them from without--and I mean indirectly, through a bifurcated socialization process, not accusing anyone of anything not commonplace--is just continuing a trend that has basically failed for a few ten thousand years.

Dunno where he got it from

Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value?

I agree with all of that.

[Ideologue]

I got all sexually political at some point in the past few years.  Have no real idea why.

[Valmy]

I'm not totally convinced inborn ones should be considered gender traits rather than personality traits.  On a tactical level, it's almost certainly best to treat them as the latter.

Well yes.  Boys just tend to have certain personality traits and girls others.  There are also supposedly some chemical differences in the brain but even then I doubt it is a completely binary system and anyway I am hardly some brain expert.

In the end I prefer for individuals to be individuals and just because boys tend to have certain traits should not mean that they should have those traits or there is something wrong if they do not.  But ultimately I think who people are is very deeply ingrained.  This may or may not conform to who society thinks they should be.

[Valmy]

Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value?

Yet another normal boy may want to wear pink and identify with it.

[Ideologue]

I'm not totally convinced inborn ones should be considered gender traits rather than personality traits.  On a tactical level, it's almost certainly best to treat them as the latter.

Well yes.  Boys just tend to have certain personality traits and girls others.  There are also supposedly some chemical differences in the brain but even then I doubt it is a completely binary system and anyway I am hardly some brain expert.

In the end I prefer for individuals to be individuals and just because boys tend to have certain traits should not mean that they should have those traits or there is something wrong if they do not.  But ultimately I think who people are is very deeply ingrained.  This may or may not conform to who society thinks they should be.

Ah, I see.  I don't think we were arguing on anything substantial, then.

[Ideologue]

Developmentally normal children are adept at determining socially stigmatizing factors, regardless of their intrinsic value?

Yet another normal boy may want to wear pink and identify with it.

Sure, it's possible he just hates the color.  Anecdotally speaking, I didn't like pink when I was a kid, though, and I'm sure that was external--I like pink okay now (it's not my best color, but it's not horrible).