Here's something new and exciting to discuss! :D
http://www.salon.com/books/history/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/03/29/barbour_civil_war_citizenship
QuoteHaley Barbour, slavery and the citizenship test
By Steven Lubet
Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour recently acknowledged that the Civil War was fought over slavery. As reported by Politico, Barbour recognized that "Slavery was the primary, central cause of secession." That may not seem like news, but many Southerners have insisted that the "War of Northern Aggression," as they call it, was fought over more palatable issues, such as states' rights or economic autonomy. That is nonsense, but it still took some courage for Barbour, in an interview with professor Robert S. McElvaine of Millsaps College, to repudiate a long-held myth about the nobility of the "Lost Cause."
Of course, Barbour's repudiation of secession is no doubt prompted, at least in part, by his all-but-declared candidacy for president. As a national candidate he will have to appeal beyond his Southern base, and that means rejecting Confederate apologia in favor of, well, actual history.
Now, if only the federal government would do the same thing.
Unbelievably, the official study guide for the U.S. citizenship test still lists three acceptable answers for the question about the causes of the Civil War: slavery, economic reasons and states' rights. The latter two answers, as Gov. Barbour now freely admits, are simply wrong. In fact, they are worse than wrong, because they obscure a central fact about American history. As Barbour put it, "the Civil War was necessary to bring about the abolition of slavery. Abolishing slavery was morally imperative and necessary, and it's regrettable that it took the Civil War to do it. But it did."
Needless to say, the Civil War, with its 600,000 casualties, would hardly have been necessary if it had been about nothing more than the division of power between the central government and the states, let alone some amorphous "economic reasons." And yet, that is precisely the lesson that will be learned by any aspiring citizen who diligently studies the government-provided model answers to the naturalization test.
The test is not equally agnostic about the causes of other American wars. There is only one correct answer -- "Communism" -- to the question about the United States' "main concern during the Cold War." Other quite plausible answers -- such as great power rivalry, third-world self-determination, or even Russian military expansion -- are evidently unacceptable. Even the ubiquitous "economic reasons" would be marked wrong.
Remarkably, the current version of the citizenship test is not simply an antiquated holdover from an unenlightened time. In fact, the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS) thoroughly revised and updated it in 2008. The test contains several other incorrect answers, but none that are as egregious as misidentification of the causes of the Civil War.
It would be tempting to think that the Civil War question -- with its absurd alternative answers -- was included only as a sop to the Bush administration's Southern supporters, but President Obama has been in office for over two years, and the test remains unchanged.
On the 150th anniversary of the Civil War, only a die-hard neo-Confederate could claim that secession was motivated by anything other than the desire to protect slavery. As Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens put it in 1861, the Confederacy's "cornerstone [rested] upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition."
The Union troops had a different and far more moving ideal, which was immortalized in one of the later stanzas of the Battle Hymn of the Republic: "Let us die to make men free." It is, frankly, an insult to their memory that the USCIS naturalization test fails to recognize the cause for which they gave their lives.
In the Gettysburg Address, President Lincoln eulogized the men who gave "the last full measure of devotion" to bring about the end of slavery, and he asked for the nation's resolve "that these dead shall not have died in vain." Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour has forthrightly honored their sacrifice, and it is not very much to ask the USCIS citizenship test to do the same.
Steven Lubet is the Williams Memorial Professor of Law at Northwestern. He is the author of "Fugitive Justice: Runaways, Rescuers, and Slavery on Trial."
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2011, 06:49:46 PM
The test is not equally agnostic about the causes of other American wars. There is only one correct answer -- "Communism" -- to the question about the United States' "main concern during the Cold War." Other quite plausible answers -- such as great power rivalry, third-world self-determination, or even Russian military expansion -- are evidently unacceptable. Even the ubiquitous "economic reasons" would be marked wrong.
Right Steve-o.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 29, 2011, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2011, 06:49:46 PM
The test is not equally agnostic about the causes of other American wars. There is only one correct answer -- "Communism" -- to the question about the United States' "main concern during the Cold War." Other quite plausible answers -- such as great power rivalry, third-world self-determination, or even Russian military expansion -- are evidently unacceptable. Even the ubiquitous "economic reasons" would be marked wrong.
Right Steve-o.
Aside from 3rd world self-determination an argument can be easily made for all of those.
All of the above?
How asinine can it be: The South seceded because they wanted to keep their States' right to hold slaves, to pursue them running away even in the farthest regions of the North, and expand slavery into new territories. When the North dared to elect that "nigger-loving" Lincoln who wouldn't allow them to (except keeping their Slaves, Lincoln was of the house of letting slavery wither and die by itself), they run a collective temper tantrum and slammed the door.
The Cold War wasn't an actual war, nor was it exclusively between two powers.
Quote from: Drakken on March 29, 2011, 08:44:48 PM
How asinine can it be: The South seceded because they wanted to keep their States' right to hold slaves, to pursue them running away even in the farthest regions of the North, and expand slavery into new territories. When the North dared to elect that "nigger-loving" Lincoln who wouldn't allow them to (except keeping their Slaves, Lincoln was of the house of letting slavery wither and die by itself), they run a collective temper tantrum and slammed the door.
Preach it, brother.
Also they wanted to interfere with with the Postal service to prevent abolitionist documents from reaching the South.
"Slavery it is, sir."
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdeadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F06%2Fmuchapuaboutnothing3.png&hash=4fcf6f8a830e7238db9415dd178462aa872063c5)
QuoteThe Union troops had a different and far more moving ideal, which was immortalized in one of the later stanzas of the Battle Hymn of the Republic: "Let us die to make men free." It is, frankly, an insult to their memory that the USCIS naturalization test fails to recognize the cause for which they gave their lives.
Really? Did that many Union soldiers join and fight to end slavery and free blacks, especially in the first year or two?
Do Americans really want to make it 100% official that half the fucking country felt strongly enough about slavery that they fought a huge war for keeping it? Careful what you wish for, Amerikkka.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2011, 07:44:44 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 29, 2011, 06:58:11 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2011, 06:49:46 PM
The test is not equally agnostic about the causes of other American wars. There is only one correct answer -- "Communism" -- to the question about the United States' "main concern during the Cold War." Other quite plausible answers -- such as great power rivalry, third-world self-determination, or even Russian military expansion -- are evidently unacceptable. Even the ubiquitous "economic reasons" would be marked wrong.
Right Steve-o.
Aside from 3rd world self-determination an argument can be easily made for all of those.
Is this a multiple choice test or you have to write in the answer?
Quote from: sbr on March 29, 2011, 11:10:18 PM
QuoteThe Union troops had a different and far more moving ideal, which was immortalized in one of the later stanzas of the Battle Hymn of the Republic: "Let us die to make men free." It is, frankly, an insult to their memory that the USCIS naturalization test fails to recognize the cause for which they gave their lives.
Really? Did that many Union soldiers join and fight to end slavery and free blacks, especially in the first year or two?
Some certainly did. No idea how many though.
Quote from: The Brain on March 30, 2011, 12:23:43 AM
Do Americans really want to make it 100% official that half the fucking country felt strongly enough about slavery that they fought a huge war for keeping it? Careful what you wish for, Amerikkka.
1/3 of the country. That's why they lost.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2011, 07:44:44 PM
Aside from 3rd world self-determination an argument can be easily made for all of those.
Aside from 3rd world self-determination they're all different characterizations of the same thing.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 30, 2011, 06:49:56 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 29, 2011, 07:44:44 PM
Aside from 3rd world self-determination an argument can be easily made for all of those.
Aside from 3rd world self-determination they're all different characterizations of the same thing.
Hmm...No.
I see Russian military expansion as synonymous with the argument on Great Power rivalries, and the economics argument as synonymous with the Communism argument but I wouldn't say the first two are the same as the last two.
QuoteH
Unbelievably,the official study guide for the U.S. citizenship test still lists three acceptable answers for the question about the causes of the Civil War: slavery, economic reasons and states' rights. The latter two answers, as Gov. Barbour now freely admits, are simply wrong. In fact, they are worse than wrong, because they obscure a central fact about American history. As Barbour put it, "the Civil War was necessary to bring about the abolition of slavery. Abolishing slavery was morally imperative and necessary, and it's regrettable that it took the Civil War to do it. But it did.
It that why Ulysses S. Grant was a slave owner, and he kept owning slaves even when he became President, years after the end of the Civil War?
Riiiiiight.
Quote from: Martim Silva on March 30, 2011, 09:59:59 AM
It that why Ulysses S. Grant was a slave owner, and he kept owning slaves even when he became President, years after the end of the Civil War?
:lmfao:
Quote from: Martim Silva on March 30, 2011, 09:59:59 AM
QuoteH
Unbelievably,the official study guide for the U.S. citizenship test still lists three acceptable answers for the question about the causes of the Civil War: slavery, economic reasons and states' rights. The latter two answers, as Gov. Barbour now freely admits, are simply wrong. In fact, they are worse than wrong, because they obscure a central fact about American history. As Barbour put it, "the Civil War was necessary to bring about the abolition of slavery. Abolishing slavery was morally imperative and necessary, and it's regrettable that it took the Civil War to do it. But it did.
It that why Ulysses S. Grant was a slave owner, and he kept owning slaves even when he became President, years after the end of the Civil War?
Riiiiiight.
He owned one slave before the war that he bought from his wife's father. Don't know what your yammering on about. He did far more to fight for Civil Rights than any President between him and LBJ.
:huh: That's beside the point, as Martisilva's assertion that Grant kept owning slaves when he was President, well after slavery was illegal, is in and of itself laughable.
Quote from: Razgovory on March 30, 2011, 03:07:20 AM
Some certainly did. No idea how many though.
Pretty safe to say a majority opposed slavery, but I doubt a majority ever had that as their prime motivation.
Quote from: Caliga on March 30, 2011, 10:15:49 AM
:huh: That's beside the point, as Martisilva's assertion that Grant kept owning slaves when he was President, well after slavery was illegal, is in and of itself laughable.
Grant was a capitalist. He had servants working for him in the White House.
All servants who do not own their own labor are slaves. Therefore Grant was a slaveowner.
This really is not the complicated.
Quote from: derspiess on March 30, 2011, 10:23:26 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on March 30, 2011, 03:07:20 AM
Some certainly did. No idea how many though.
Pretty safe to say a majority opposed slavery, but I doubt a majority ever had that as their prime motivation.
This is kind of a silly point though.
I would say the one common principal those who fought for the north would espouse was saving the Union.
The reason the Union was potentially broken was the issue of slavery.
So no, I don't think most soldiers fought to free the slaves. They fought to save the Union. But the only reason the Union was in danger was slavery.
lets see.
Oklahoma is close to declaring independence, cajun restaurants are being closed due to anti-french feelings and now Grant owned slaves after the civil war.
Portugal is awesome.
Quote from: Martim Silva on March 30, 2011, 09:59:59 AM
It that why Ulysses S. Grant was a slave owner, and he kept owning slaves even when he became President, years after the end of the Civil War?
Riiiiiight.
His cousin's roommate's brother-in-law's great-great-grandfather was the Portuguese Ambassador during the Grant Administration.
Quote from: Martim Silva on March 30, 2011, 09:59:59 AM
QuoteH
Unbelievably,the official study guide for the U.S. citizenship test still lists three acceptable answers for the question about the causes of the Civil War: slavery, economic reasons and states' rights. The latter two answers, as Gov. Barbour now freely admits, are simply wrong. In fact, they are worse than wrong, because they obscure a central fact about American history. As Barbour put it, "the Civil War was necessary to bring about the abolition of slavery. Abolishing slavery was morally imperative and necessary, and it's regrettable that it took the Civil War to do it. But it did.
It that why Ulysses S. Grant was a slave owner, and he kept owning slaves even when he became President, years after the end of the Civil War?
Riiiiiight.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Razgovory on March 30, 2011, 11:24:24 AM
Quote from: Martim Silva on March 30, 2011, 09:59:59 AM
QuoteH
Unbelievably,the official study guide for the U.S. citizenship test still lists three acceptable answers for the question about the causes of the Civil War: slavery, economic reasons and states' rights. The latter two answers, as Gov. Barbour now freely admits, are simply wrong. In fact, they are worse than wrong, because they obscure a central fact about American history. As Barbour put it, "the Civil War was necessary to bring about the abolition of slavery. Abolishing slavery was morally imperative and necessary, and it's regrettable that it took the Civil War to do it. But it did.
It that why Ulysses S. Grant was a slave owner, and he kept owning slaves even when he became President, years after the end of the Civil War?
Riiiiiight.
:lmfao:
Gotta be nice to know you aren't the nuttiest dude on the board!
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 30, 2011, 10:42:02 AM
Oklahoma is close to declaring independence
:lol:
He must be a fan of that crazy Russian professor. IIRC the USA was going to break up in early 2011, according to him. :hmm:
Quote from: Caliga on March 30, 2011, 10:15:49 AM
:huh: That's beside the point, as Martisilva's assertion that Grant kept owning slaves when he was President, well after slavery was illegal, is in and of itself laughable.
Hey, who do you think wrote his memoirs? ;)
Quote from: Martinus on March 30, 2011, 02:02:33 AM
Is this a multiple choice test or you have to write in the answer?
It's a verbal exam, not multiple-choice. It's 3(I think, maybe a few more) questions picked randomly from a list. The list is public. Not very hard.
Quote from: Martim Silva on March 30, 2011, 09:59:59 AM
QuoteH
Unbelievably,the official study guide for the U.S. citizenship test still lists three acceptable answers for the question about the causes of the Civil War: slavery, economic reasons and states' rights. The latter two answers, as Gov. Barbour now freely admits, are simply wrong. In fact, they are worse than wrong, because they obscure a central fact about American history. As Barbour put it, "the Civil War was necessary to bring about the abolition of slavery. Abolishing slavery was morally imperative and necessary, and it's regrettable that it took the Civil War to do it. But it did.
It that why Ulysses S. Grant was a slave owner, and he kept owning slaves even when he became President, years after the end of the Civil War?
Riiiiiight.
Oh, my. I guess mental hospitals were the first to go in Portugal due to the financial crisis.
Quote from: Caliga on March 30, 2011, 11:25:48 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 30, 2011, 10:42:02 AM
Oklahoma is close to declaring independence
:lol:
He must be a fan of that crazy Russian professor. IIRC the USA was going to break up in early 2011, according to him. :hmm:
June 2010, actually. :contract:
Whoops. :blush:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Panarin
I like Portuguese food. :cool:
Quote from: Caliga on March 30, 2011, 11:41:35 AM
I like Portuguese food. :cool:
You like brazillian food. A bit different. though both are good.
I've had both. :mad:
I myself have cooked rojões, for example.
Quik Trip sells awesome rojões. :cool:
Quote from: Caliga on March 30, 2011, 11:41:35 AM
I like Portuguese food. :cool:
I dunno, there is a certain Portugese vegetable I'm not too fond of.
Quote from: DGuller on March 30, 2011, 12:02:02 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 30, 2011, 11:41:35 AM
I like Portuguese food. :cool:
I dunno, there is a certain Portugese vegetable I'm not too fond of.
That's an italian vegetable!
Quote from: DGuller on March 30, 2011, 11:32:57 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Panarin
I object to China and the European Union getting the best bits! :mad: :wacko:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panarin.svg
Quote from: Malthus on March 30, 2011, 01:31:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 30, 2011, 11:32:57 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Panarin
I object to China and the European Union getting the best bits! :mad: :wacko:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Panarin.svg
Please, :rolleyes: you're getting the Wings, Blues and Hawks. China is getting the Coyotes.
Hey, Arizona's anti-Hispanic-immigrant policies did pan out after all. :)
If Portugal is so awesome, why do you live in Canada? :huh:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on March 30, 2011, 03:16:55 PM
If Portugal is so awesome, why do you live in Canada? :huh:
Too warm in Portugal. HVC loves snow and ice.
Quote from: HVC on March 30, 2011, 03:05:27 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 30, 2011, 01:19:35 PM
Quote from: HVC on March 30, 2011, 11:37:56 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 30, 2011, 10:42:02 AM
Portugal is awesome.
Damn straight!
Awesomely stupid.
Too late for clarification :P
Oh no, dear eggplant. You are tarred with Martim-ism and IKK-ism.
I have a lettow cross to bear, you have your slapnuts to bear.
Quote from: Berkut on March 30, 2011, 10:25:10 AM
Quote from: Caliga on March 30, 2011, 10:15:49 AM
:huh: That's beside the point, as Martisilva's assertion that Grant kept owning slaves when he was President, well after slavery was illegal, is in and of itself laughable.
Grant was a capitalist. He had servants working for him in the White House.
All servants who do not own their own labor are slaves. Therefore Grant was a slaveowner.
This really is not the complicated.
Obama has servants working for him in the White House. Therefore Obama is a slaveowner. And obviously hates unions.
Quote from: Maximus on March 30, 2011, 11:27:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 30, 2011, 02:02:33 AM
Is this a multiple choice test or you have to write in the answer?
It's a verbal exam, not multiple-choice. It's 3(I think, maybe a few more) questions picked randomly from a list. The list is public. Not very hard.
Ok, in that case I think the fact that "communism" is the only valid answer to the cold war question is more fucked up/idiotic than the fact that they accept three different answers to the civil war question.
Quote from: Martinus on March 31, 2011, 01:24:54 AM
Quote from: Maximus on March 30, 2011, 11:27:42 AM
Quote from: Martinus on March 30, 2011, 02:02:33 AM
Is this a multiple choice test or you have to write in the answer?
It's a verbal exam, not multiple-choice. It's 3(I think, maybe a few more) questions picked randomly from a list. The list is public. Not very hard.
Ok, in that case I think the fact that "communism" is the only valid answer to the cold war question is more fucked up/idiotic than the fact that they accept three different answers to the civil war question.
They give you the questions and answers before the exam. If you are smart enough to come up with another answer to the cold war question, you are smart enough to remember that the answer they want is communism.
Good thing we don't have citizenship tests in Sweden. I'd hate to see what the PC crowd in charge would make our history look like.
Quote from: The Brain on March 31, 2011, 11:35:44 AM
Good thing we don't have citizenship tests in Sweden. I'd hate to see what the PC crowd in charge would make our history look like.
:D Really! But it would be so amusing!!