i'm back! So, a quick life update:
I graduated from undergrad last year (umass!). This year I'm screwing around in Northampton (not literally, sadly) and working at a pizza place. Next year I'm going to law school. I'm waiting to hear back from most places, but I got into Columbia. So suck it. I'm excited, but I'm getting cold feet.
I'm considering deferring for a year so I can spend some more time enjoying life (I'd be aiming for a Boston job in the legal world to build my resume), save up a bit of money (that would be a drop in the bucket considering the cost of law school- but what's 200,000 dollars between friends?) maybe do some traveling (these goals seem contradictory, but aren't I supposed to "do some traveling" at this point in my life?), and clear my head.
Right now I'm staring at law school, a career as a lawyer, retirement, and death. It's a little terrifying. And so bloody conventional. I'm fairly confident this moment will pass, I won't end up deferring, and I'll just attend law school next year, but any thoughts? I figured the best advice I could get would be from semi-anonymous people on an internet forum I haven't posted on in years (I have memories, though. Memories!).
and for the lawyers: does anybody actually like the big corporate law firm jobs? and does it matter? (no guarantee I'd get one of those jobs, but they pay... slightly more than I make delivering pizzas)
How youse guys been?
ffs another lawyer :bleeding:
p.s. Sox sux! Go Giants!
The most precious asset you have is your time. The number of income generating years that you have is a finite number. An extra year spent doing nothing is a year's worth of salary forgone. That's a pretty big number.
I suggest attenting law school ASAP.
And welcome back :hug:
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2011, 04:21:06 AM
The most precious asset you have is your time. The number of income generating years that you have is a finite number. An extra year spent doing nothing is a year's worth of salary forgone. That's a pretty big number.
:cool: I agree. I look down at hippies that think they are entitled to spend a year 'finding themselves in Indonesia' (I'm looking at you, Malthus). Here's a knuckle sandwich for you to find, filthy hippie. :menace:
Anyway, welcome back Count. :hug:
Welcome back. My 2 pennies: If "travelling the world to find yourself" does not include the military, go straight to law school.
The three previous posters are all morons, cretins and idiots.
Quote from: lustindarkness on March 24, 2011, 04:49:33 AM
Welcome back. My 2 pennies: If "travelling the world to find yourself" does not include the military, go straight to law school.
Travelling the world as a soldier: acceptable. :hug:
aww I missed you guys. Traveling would be restricted to europe (most of the world seems fucking horrible).
fuck, who am I kidding. I'll go. UNLESS SOMEONE SAYS OTHERWISE PLEASE GOD
Well, if you insist on being a filthy hippie, I guess this is the time to do it. :)
Quote from: Caliga on March 24, 2011, 05:32:13 AM
Well, if you insist on being a filthy hippie, I guess this is the time to do it. :)
i can shave my sideburns AND i've already stopped smoking pot. but goddammit I like my sideburns.
what's with these spam filters?
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 05:30:41 AM
aww I missed you guys. Traveling would be restricted to europe (most of the world seems fucking horrible).
fuck, who am I kidding. I'll go. UNLESS SOMEONE SAYS OTHERWISE PLEASE GOD
OTHERWISE PLEASE GOD
I took a year out, but that was after highschool. Gave me good language skills, taught me some measure of selfreliance and a tolerance of other cultures, in this case the US, which is greatly neede here at languish, and at work for a big 4 consultancy firm with ALOT of USian mannerisms :p
Now, ofc if you intend to stay inside the US and only deal with Amuricans, then that wont help you :D
V
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2011, 05:35:50 AM
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 05:30:41 AM
aww I missed you guys. Traveling would be restricted to europe (most of the world seems fucking horrible).
fuck, who am I kidding. I'll go. UNLESS SOMEONE SAYS OTHERWISE PLEASE GOD
OTHERWISE PLEASE GOD
i meant i'll go to law school, not europe. but I will assume you understood that and wanted me to take more time off, and I will now dedicate my life to becoming "self-actualized"
Quote from: Valdemar on March 24, 2011, 05:38:19 AM
I took a year out, but that was after highschool. Gave me good language skills, taught me some measure of selfreliance and a tolerance of other cultures, in this case the US, which is greatly neede here at languish, and at work for a big 4 consultancy firm with ALOT of USian mannerisms :p
It is not necessary to take a year off to learn good language skills, or achieve self-reliance. There are many other ways.
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 05:40:48 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2011, 05:35:50 AM
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 05:30:41 AM
aww I missed you guys. Traveling would be restricted to europe (most of the world seems fucking horrible).
fuck, who am I kidding. I'll go. UNLESS SOMEONE SAYS OTHERWISE PLEASE GOD
OTHERWISE PLEASE GOD
i meant i'll go to law school, not europe. but I will assume you understood that and wanted me to take more time off, and I will now dedicate my life to becoming "self-actualized"
:hug:
Don't just go to law school. Make sure you pick one of the streams that'll make big bucks. Whatever that maybe :showoff:
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 04:06:14 AM
Right now I'm staring at law school, a career as a lawyer, retirement, and death. It's a little terrifying.
I imagine a career as a lawyer would be. Welcome back.
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2011, 05:43:44 AM
It is not necessary to take a year off to learn good language skills, or achieve self-reliance. There are many other ways.
OFC there are, but you don't truly get to learn a language unless you talk it all the time with natives... just like you did in Vancouver I presume :)
V
You can try to travel for only a month or so. Do it in India. Once you are there, it's fairly cheap. Vietnam would be better but I'm unsure how they treat Americans.
Deffo take a year off. One day you'll be 40 with a mortgage and kids and have only an fortnight off a year in some kid friedly place.
You know whose last words were "I wish I'd spent more time in the office"? Nobody.
Corporate work pays well. I've never done it but my impression is that it is largely due diligence - long hours of ticking boxes with no real law involved. If you want to do something intellectually interesting but which still pays well, tax law would be a good call.
Welcome back. :)
You goto a hostel, you'll get crabs.
Quote from: Caliga on March 24, 2011, 04:24:06 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2011, 04:21:06 AM
The most precious asset you have is your time. The number of income generating years that you have is a finite number. An extra year spent doing nothing is a year's worth of salary forgone. That's a pretty big number.
:cool: I agree. I look down at hippies that think they are entitled to spend a year 'finding themselves in Indonesia' (I'm looking at you, Malthus). Here's a knuckle sandwich for you to find, filthy hippie. :menace:
I'll interpret that as American for "have a nice day". ;)
Anyway,
I'd say go for some travel. If you do go into law, you will not be able to do it later, and if you don't, you will regret it. I'm happy I did it.
After all your hard work, make sure to enjoy some of your time, the summer. Do some traveling maybe, USA or where ever. :)
What Malthus and Gups said. Take a year and travel.
Take the year, if you can manage it.
You will have plenty of time to work. And work. And work.
Welcome back.
I'm in my second year of law school right now, and I agree with everyone else's advice. Plus, deferring a year means that you will defer one year of entering the work force, which may not actually be a bad thing in this economy. Obviously, as long as you pretty well at Columbia, you should have plenty of opportunities, but there are definitely people at Columbia and other elite schools who aren't getting good 2L summer jobs, which is pretty much the kiss of death if you want to work in a corporate law firm and quickly pay off your 6 figure debt. Last summer, when I was a 1L, I interned at the US Attorney's Office and one of my fellow interns was a 2L from Columbia. He told me he was going to graduate with around 180k in debt and he was working for free* alongside me. :yuk:
*I think he was getting some sort of stipend from Columbia, but it wasn't significant.
If you're going to see the world don't go to Australia or Western Europe. Man up and go to Africa, the Middle East, latin America or India, you'll save money, you'll have much better stories, have a much broader perspective, and you'll learn how to rely on yourself.
Quote from: Savonarola on March 24, 2011, 09:00:12 AM
If you're going to see the world don't go to Australia or Western Europe. Man up and go to Africa, the Middle East, latin America or India, you'll save money, you'll have much better stories, have a much broader perspective, and you'll learn how to rely on yourself.
Plus, you'll get cholera.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 24, 2011, 09:09:38 AM
Plus, you'll get cholera.
Cholera will make a man of you.
TES is a lawyer too now.
Gay lawyers FTW.
Quote from: Savonarola on March 24, 2011, 09:17:28 AM
Cholera will make a man of you.
Yes it will, provided you survive. :)
Quote from: Malthus on March 24, 2011, 07:34:15 AM
I'd say go for some travel. If you do go into law, you will not be able to do it later, and if you don't, you will regret it. I'm happy I did it.
I suggest skipping law school and pick up a CDL. :hmm:
Gups has wisdom. Put me in the take a year off camp.
And damn, law school doesn't look like a good investment these days, does it? 180k in debt before you start working? Don't try to be a prosecutor in Quebec. You'll never get out of that hole. :P
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 24, 2011, 10:43:40 AM
Gups has wisdom. Put me in the take a year off camp.
And damn, law school doesn't look like a good investment these days, does it? 180k in debt before you start working? Don't try to be a prosecutor in Quebec. You'll never get out of that hole. :P
It doesn't cost that much here. 1800$ a semester plus books.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 24, 2011, 10:45:46 AM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 24, 2011, 10:43:40 AM
Gups has wisdom. Put me in the take a year off camp.
And damn, law school doesn't look like a good investment these days, does it? 180k in debt before you start working? Don't try to be a prosecutor in Quebec. You'll never get out of that hole. :P
It doesn't cost that much here. 1800$ a semester plus books.
For English Canadians, a good dodge is to get a legal education at a good school here (comparatively cheap - by orders of magnitude!), then get hired by a US law firm - it is reasonably easy to pass the bar. Then, profit. Lots of people did just that, NY firms were recruiting at U of T.
Quebec lawyers don't have that option as much - civil law system, not as similar.
Holy shit - when I saw a thread started by Count I assumed it was a necro-thread - but low and behold it wasn't!
First, I have to say it... $200k for law school?!? That approaches the point of "not being worth it" don't you think? Can't you attend a state school for a whole lot less tuition or something?
Does anybody like big corporate law work? No. Nobody does. Those who say they do are lying or have deceived themselves through their blackened and charred heart. Seriously it's dreadful stuff. I got out after my first year and never looked back. I guess it can be interesting once you're a senior partner and you're more involved in client management and actually negotiating the deals, but it takes a decade or two to get to that point.
I dunno - I'm kind of neutral on the whole "taking a year off" bit. Working isn't quite so dreadful as 'you only get 14 days in a child-friendly place' - I get more holidays than that, have gone to some reasonably exciting places, and plus I actually have money to spend and enjoy in those places. But I don't think waiting one year is life-alteringly bad either.
If you get a job to build your resume, please of please don't let it be a legal job. Do anything else. Quite frankly without being in law school you won't be doing anything remotely useful. In interviews you want to be able to talk about something, anything, that makes you stand out from the pack. Working in a "legal job" doesn't do that. I'd dare say bartending, or construction, would be more useful than something legal-oriented. Something that involves having to deal with people, plus gives you entertaining stories, is what you're after.
Now don't wait several years before replying, hear me?
Do what I do. Travel and work. :contract:
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 04:06:14 AM
and for the lawyers: does anybody actually like the big corporate law firm jobs?
Love it. But it's not for everybody.
And with that . . . gotta go!
I guy I used to hang with in Boston is general counsel for National Grid USA. He seems to love it. He just makes left-wing posts on Facebook all day when he ought to be working. :)
I'd say go traveling as well, but at the very least go somewhere semi-safe and Asian in addition to Europe - Japan, Korea, Hong Kong and Taiwan.
But yeah, do as much adventuring as possible before you plunge into law school.
Good luck :cheers:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 24, 2011, 11:25:17 AM
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 04:06:14 AM
and for the lawyers: does anybody actually like the big corporate law firm jobs?
Love it. But it's not for everybody.
And with that . . . gotta go!
But MInsky - you might be in a big white shoe law firm, but do you practice corporate law? II thought you were more of a litigator for some reason.
Count - law school? Really?
Do you really want to be a lawyer? Why not do something interesting, like the state department, or intelligence (NSA or something)?
As a Jew he doesn't realize that any career other than medicine, banking, or law exists. :(
Quote from: Caliga on March 24, 2011, 12:10:13 PM
As a Jew he doesn't realize that any career other than medicine, banking, or law exists. :(
Don't forget diamond dealing.
verrry interesting. Hmm.
yeah the debt is ridiculous. But the starting salaries are ridiculous too, and the legal job market is abysmal right now. The advice I saw was either pay for an elite school that still has good job opportunities or just try to get a full ride from a lower ranked one. There are some ways to manage the debt if you don't do big law (which again, everyone seems to hate, and although I won't be a filthy hippy forever I can't imagine doing big law for more than a few years to pay off debt before transitioning to something else). There are loan repayment plans for public interest work, and income based repayment plans for people who make under a certain threshold- anyone have experience with either? Jaba, what are you looking at post-grad? Alternatively, I could always live under a bridge.
I'm still hoping to get a scholarship from a lower ranked school.
but, as a proud public school alum... I kind of want the brand name law school. Isn't it a guaranteed ride to a lifetime of hookers and blow? (more than just that, I'm excited about going to a law school where everyone is super smart and engaged)
i'm still quite unsure, and I'll take my time deciding, but thanks everyone for the advice. Does whatshisname, the sharp lawyer from NYC, still post here?
and BB: that's interesting. My resume is kind of crap and I never had that summer interning at a local firm, so I felt like I should shore it up, but I'll keep what you said in mind.
also, to be clear, I'm doing a year off right now, but not really doing anything that exciting. So if I deferred, it'd be two years, albeit hopefully with cooler things going on. Would two years look bad?
Quote from: Berkut on March 24, 2011, 12:08:30 PM
Count - law school? Really?
Do you really want to be a lawyer? Why not do something interesting, like the state department, or intelligence (NSA or something)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE
I'm interested in "constitutional issues." Plus, I've always wanted to be a lawyer, and I want to check off that life goal. More practically, I feel like I'd get a great education at law school and there are a number of legal careers that seem intellectually stimulating, challenging, and well (or at least decently) paying. And there are other careers that are challenging and quite poor paying, but really worthwhile. The problem is the debt- it hampers any movement so if I decide I hate it, I can't just give it up and do something else. I'm sure I want to be a lawyer now, but I'm not sure I want to be a lawyer in 20 years.
NYC lawyer is Minsky.
Quote from: Grey Fox on March 24, 2011, 12:29:38 PM
NYC lawyer is Minsky.
ah. Don't tell him I called him sharp.
I actually think he's a bit more flat than sharp. :)
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 12:28:14 PM
I'm interested in "constitutional issues."
Doesn't sound like it would pay the bills on all that debt.
I look at it this way. Yes, you gotta spend money to make money... but if by spending money, you ain't gonna make money, then don't spend the money in the first place.
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 24, 2011, 12:08:30 PM
Count - law school? Really?
Do you really want to be a lawyer? Why not do something interesting, like the state department, or intelligence (NSA or something)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE
I'm interested in "constitutional issues." Plus, I've always wanted to be a lawyer, and I want to check off that life goal. More practically, I feel like I'd get a great education at law school and there are a number of legal careers that seem intellectually stimulating, challenging, and well (or at least decently) paying. And there are other careers that are challenging and quite poor paying, but really worthwhile. The problem is the debt- it hampers any movement so if I decide I hate it, I can't just give it up and do something else. I'm sure I want to be a lawyer now, but I'm not sure I want to be a lawyer in 20 years.
LOL, I immediately thought of that video (I think Minsky posted it a while back) when I saw your post.
Quote from: Berkut on March 24, 2011, 01:16:02 PM
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 24, 2011, 12:08:30 PM
Count - law school? Really?
Do you really want to be a lawyer? Why not do something interesting, like the state department, or intelligence (NSA or something)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE
I'm interested in "constitutional issues." Plus, I've always wanted to be a lawyer, and I want to check off that life goal. More practically, I feel like I'd get a great education at law school and there are a number of legal careers that seem intellectually stimulating, challenging, and well (or at least decently) paying. And there are other careers that are challenging and quite poor paying, but really worthwhile. The problem is the debt- it hampers any movement so if I decide I hate it, I can't just give it up and do something else. I'm sure I want to be a lawyer now, but I'm not sure I want to be a lawyer in 20 years.
LOL, I immediately thought of that video (I think Minsky posted it a while back) when I saw your post.
yeah it is disturbingly, disturbingly accurate. I think I've said verbatim "I'll take out a few loans." One of the things I like about this career path is that bitter, disillusioned lawyers are hilarious.
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 24, 2011, 12:08:30 PM
Count - law school? Really?
Do you really want to be a lawyer? Why not do something interesting, like the state department, or intelligence (NSA or something)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE
I'm interested in "constitutional issues." Plus, I've always wanted to be a lawyer, and I want to check off that life goal. More practically, I feel like I'd get a great education at law school and there are a number of legal careers that seem intellectually stimulating, challenging, and well (or at least decently) paying. And there are other careers that are challenging and quite poor paying, but really worthwhile. The problem is the debt- it hampers any movement so if I decide I hate it, I can't just give it up and do something else. I'm sure I want to be a lawyer now, but I'm not sure I want to be a lawyer in 20 years.
Well at least you didn't say "internatinal law". :)
What kind of "constitutional issues" do you think you'd like to be involved in? And, by the way, cosntitutional law is litigation, which is quite distinct from corporate law / securities / M&A / commercial real estate.
I dunno - I didn't graduate with a tenth of that debt. Very few of my classmates got the BIGLAW kind of job, but it didn't matter that much because we weren't slaves to the debt. I did get the western Canadian equivalent to that kind of firm, but even 10 years ago the salary was only $50k (and that was a big raise from two years earlier where you started in the 30s). So when I was tossed after two years, I was able to manage, and eventually settled in criminal prosecutions which I quite enjoy.
Remember that biglaw firms eat their young. The use you for several years, then toss you. Hopefully in the mean time you can line up a cushy landing spot in a smaller firm, or in-house, or wherever. And that's assuming you even get such a job. As you are aware, the US legal job market sucks right now.
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 01:23:05 PMOne of the things I like about this career path is that bitter, disillusioned lawyers are hilarious.
Hilarious up until the point that you join us. After that the "joke" wears a bit thin.
Quote from: ulmont on March 24, 2011, 01:36:25 PM
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 01:23:05 PMOne of the things I like about this career path is that bitter, disillusioned lawyers are hilarious.
Hilarious up until the point that you join us. After that the "joke" wears a bit thin.
Indeed - bitter, disillusioned lawyers are generally not much fun to have on the other side of a file. :(
Quote from: Barrister on March 24, 2011, 01:27:39 PM
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 12:28:14 PM
Quote from: Berkut on March 24, 2011, 12:08:30 PM
Count - law school? Really?
Do you really want to be a lawyer? Why not do something interesting, like the state department, or intelligence (NSA or something)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE
I'm interested in "constitutional issues." Plus, I've always wanted to be a lawyer, and I want to check off that life goal. More practically, I feel like I'd get a great education at law school and there are a number of legal careers that seem intellectually stimulating, challenging, and well (or at least decently) paying. And there are other careers that are challenging and quite poor paying, but really worthwhile. The problem is the debt- it hampers any movement so if I decide I hate it, I can't just give it up and do something else. I'm sure I want to be a lawyer now, but I'm not sure I want to be a lawyer in 20 years.
Well at least you didn't say "internatinal law". :)
What kind of "constitutional issues" do you think you'd like to be involved in? And, by the way, cosntitutional law is litigation, which is quite distinct from corporate law / securities / M&A / commercial real estate.
I dunno - I didn't graduate with a tenth of that debt. Very few of my classmates got the BIGLAW kind of job, but it didn't matter that much because we weren't slaves to the debt. I did get the western Canadian equivalent to that kind of firm, but even 10 years ago the salary was only $50k (and that was a big raise from two years earlier where you started in the 30s). So when I was tossed after two years, I was able to manage, and eventually settled in criminal prosecutions which I quite enjoy.
Remember that biglaw firms eat their young. The use you for several years, then toss you. Hopefully in the mean time you can line up a cushy landing spot in a smaller firm, or in-house, or wherever. And that's assuming you even get such a job. As you are aware, the US legal job market sucks right now.
well, working as a staff attorney for the aclu someday would be a dream job. I don't really know how to make that happen- those positions are extremely competitive- but that would be amazing. I want to retain some idealism even as I try to take a realistic view. There are a number of public interest jobs in different fields that I'm interested in, too, and they would qualify for loan repayment (get rid of the debt in ten years, I believe). From what I understand it is actually harder to get a public interest job than a biglaw job.
biglaw would allow me to break even within about 5 years, I believe. So it is very appealing. However, I'm not sure it makes sense to pay big for a shot (a fairly good one, out of Columbia, but still no guarantee) at a job there's a good chance I'll hate. and I think the average length of stay is only 2 or 3 years anyway.
Quote from: Barrister on March 24, 2011, 01:37:35 PM
Quote from: ulmont on March 24, 2011, 01:36:25 PM
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 01:23:05 PMOne of the things I like about this career path is that bitter, disillusioned lawyers are hilarious.
Hilarious up until the point that you join us. After that the "joke" wears a bit thin.
Indeed - bitter, disillusioned lawyers are generally not much fun to have on the other side of a file. :(
i don't know, i always thought being an alcoholic would be very romantic ;)
If I ever decided I wanted to be a lawyer I'd want to have the easiest job with the least hours in the legal profession. :)
Since that job probably doesn't pay well, then I'd also want to go to some cheapo offshore law school. :showoff:
Count, I don't know much about law school, but I will wish you good luck!
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv66%2FEricDerKonig%2F4INVl.jpg&hash=5b58ddcff0081ac653fca0bccac7ea652915f9bc)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv66%2FEricDerKonig%2FMyH6E.jpg&hash=32b2d9e8c6061027853c2f2737ae294cb1f4f8f4)
You're going to need it! :cheers:
Quote from: Berkut on March 24, 2011, 12:08:30 PM
Count - law school? Really?
Do you really want to be a lawyer? Why not do something interesting, like the state department, or intelligence (NSA or something)?
Getting into the State Department isn't a primary job choice. Maybe 10% of all applicants each year get accepted. It's something you apply to and hope for while doing something else.
And with all the talk about hiring freezes and budget cuts, intelligence isn't looking so hot either.
I know, because those are the things I'm looking at. So Count, definitely become a lawyer and don't even bother with intelligence or State. :P
I wonder what the career outlook in the organized crime track is looking like these days. :hmm:
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 01:39:39 PM
well, working as a staff attorney for the aclu someday would be a dream job. I don't really know how to make that happen- those positions are extremely competitive- but that would be amazing. I want to retain some idealism even as I try to take a realistic view. There are a number of public interest jobs in different fields that I'm interested in, too, and they would qualify for loan repayment (get rid of the debt in ten years, I believe). From what I understand it is actually harder to get a public interest job than a biglaw job.
biglaw would allow me to break even within about 5 years, I believe. So it is very appealing. However, I'm not sure it makes sense to pay big for a shot (a fairly good one, out of Columbia, but still no guarantee) at a job there's a good chance I'll hate. and I think the average length of stay is only 2 or 3 years anyway.
I don't know what it is about law school and law students. Both groups are always talking about that 1% (or even 0.1%) or amazing high-profile legal jobs. Clerking at the Supreme Court, doing constitutional litigation for the ACLU, working for Cravaths, whatever.
Even for Ivy League schools, the majority of graduates don't win up in those positions. They wind up doing far more humble work.
Why don't law schools push for the kinds of jobs that most people wind up practicing?
law school apps were down 11% this year (people got the message). so i'm sure they'll be up 20% next year.
I think the economy will have improved by the time I graduate, but there is a lot of uncertainty, to say the least.
Quote from: Barrister on March 24, 2011, 01:57:51 PM
Why don't law schools push for the kinds of jobs that most people wind up practicing?
Higher ed is a business (a tax-free business, no less). Institutions don't give a fuck what you do once you leave as long as you pay the damn bill.
The higher ed bubble will burst soon enough, don't worry. :)
If the option for a year off is delivering pizza, or working a non lawyer legal job in Boston, then surely the better option is law school.
$200k isn't that much debt for a Columbia law grad whose current employment is delivering pizza. The yearly payments are probably under $10k after taxes. I'd wager your income will go up by more than that.
Quote from: Barrister on March 24, 2011, 01:57:51 PM
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 01:39:39 PM
well, working as a staff attorney for the aclu someday would be a dream job. I don't really know how to make that happen- those positions are extremely competitive- but that would be amazing. I want to retain some idealism even as I try to take a realistic view. There are a number of public interest jobs in different fields that I'm interested in, too, and they would qualify for loan repayment (get rid of the debt in ten years, I believe). From what I understand it is actually harder to get a public interest job than a biglaw job.
biglaw would allow me to break even within about 5 years, I believe. So it is very appealing. However, I'm not sure it makes sense to pay big for a shot (a fairly good one, out of Columbia, but still no guarantee) at a job there's a good chance I'll hate. and I think the average length of stay is only 2 or 3 years anyway.
I don't know what it is about law school and law students. Both groups are always talking about that 1% (or even 0.1%) or amazing high-profile legal jobs. Clerking at the Supreme Court, doing constitutional litigation for the ACLU, working for Cravaths, whatever.
Even for Ivy League schools, the majority of graduates don't win up in those positions. They wind up doing far more humble work.
Why don't law schools push for the kinds of jobs that most people wind up practicing?
it's because you can imagine going down that route (ie, being super super successful) before you actually hit reality. And if you're dreaming, why not dream big? The personal statement I wrote for my law schools apps was about my passionate love for the CONSTITUTION. (though I avoided actually using the word constitution)
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 02:02:55 PM
it's because you can imagine going down that route (ie, being super super successful) before you actually hit reality. And if you're dreaming, why not dream big? The personal statement I wrote for my law schools apps was about my passionate love for the CONSTITUTION. (though I avoided actually using the word constitution)
:bleeding:
I didn't know you'd joined the Tea Party.
Quote from: Barrister on March 24, 2011, 02:04:37 PM
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 02:02:55 PM
it's because you can imagine going down that route (ie, being super super successful) before you actually hit reality. And if you're dreaming, why not dream big? The personal statement I wrote for my law schools apps was about my passionate love for the CONSTITUTION. (though I avoided actually using the word constitution)
:bleeding:
I didn't know you'd joined the Tea Party.
no, but generic massachusetts liberals can love the constitution too
a major reason the legal market is over-saturated is the availability of federal loans for pretty much every student and the fact that there are a ridiculous amount of law schools. So smartypants like me have to worry about competition from bumfucks who couldn't ace the lsat. :mad:
it's a bubble. I'm confident I'll be ok out of Columbia or a peer school -even without biglaw, there are ways to manage the debt on a lower salary, I just need to be able to get a legal job- but tons of people graduate from shitty schools with enormous debt and no job prospects.
and with that, i'm off to my job as a high-powered pizza delivery man (used to be a pizza delivery boy, but I have a bachelor's degree now). :bowler:
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 02:15:05 PM
a major reason the legal market is over-saturated is the availability of federal loans for pretty much every student and there are a ridiculous amount of law schools. So smartypants like me have to worry about competition from bumfucks who couldn't ace the lsat. :mad:
it's a bubble. I'm confident I'll be ok out of Columbia or a peer school -even without biglaw, there are ways to manage the debt on a lower salary, I just need to be able to get a legal job- but tons of people graduate from shitty schools with enormous debt and no job prospects.
If you lived anywhere else but the NE, I'd unequivocally tell you to forget the Ivy League and get your degree at a good state school. Like Stjaba is doing at Florida.
But I'm willing to bet that in Mass. the place is probably crawling with Ivy League grads. So I'm less certain...
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 02:02:55 PM
it's because you can imagine going down that route (ie, being super super successful) before you actually hit reality. And if you're dreaming, why not dream big? The personal statement I wrote for my law schools apps was about my passionate love for the CONSTITUTION. (though I avoided actually using the word constitution)
When I read this, the first thing I thought of was the "So you want to go to law school" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE. It's a must view for anyone in the legal profession.
Count,
I would recommend perusing the top law schools legal employment forum to get a sense of what the job market is like. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=23. Since I go to University of Florida, my perspective will be fairly different from someone going to Columbia, but it is my understanding that high prestigious public interest (PI)work(like the ACLU) is extremely competitive, even out of schools like Columbia. One further difficulty is that lots of times, these PI groups want people who show devotion to the PI cause. So, if you go the BigLaw route initially, you may be giving off the wrong signal to the PI groups, especially if you're competing for a job against people who've done nothing but PI work. Also more people are going PI right now since the BigLaw gravy train derailed. If you don't get top notch grades, you may have to settle for a lower "prestigious" organization than the ACLU. Some of the BigLaw firms do sponsor full time PI work for a couple of their employees, so you could potentially do that for a while, but I imagine that would only last for a little bit.
One other advantage of going to Columbia, though, if you want to do PI work right out of law school is that I am confident that Columbia has great debt cancellation programs(in addition to federal loan programs) that would probably allow you to get your debt forgiven and/or reduced relatively quickly, so you wouldn't have to go the BigLaw route if you didn't want to.
One last thing is that you will probably have a really good shot(but not guarantee) of BigLaw coming from Columbia. I would definitely not recommend that you go to a lower ranked school, unless it's also a T14 school. Students outside most of the top schools outside of the T14 are getting slaughtered in the job market unless they're in the top 10% of the class- this is true even at good schools like Emory, Minnesota, etc. If you go to a lower ranked schools, certain doors will be closed to you from the beginning, and other opportunities will be much harder to get. If you go to Columbia, you will have every opportunity in the world, assuming you get at least okay grades. You may think you want to do ACLU type work now, but you may end up wanting to do corporate work. Or maybe you want to eventually enter academia, for instance. Those same opportunities will not be there at lower ranked schools.
As for my current situation, fortunately I'm at the very top of my class @ UF, do not have much debt, had a ton of job interviews, and will have a high paying job for this summer. :showoff:. I have already job at a well regarded (for Florida) boutique firm this summer, and I am potentially going to split my summer at a large, corporate firm, if I am get an offer from them. I am looking to clerk with a judge after I graduate, but if not, hopefully I should have a position from one of the firms I am working for this summer. However, most of my classmates will not have good paying firm jobs this summer. I know other people who were in the top 5% of the class who have yet to land anything for this upcoming summer or who are interning/working for free this summer. And people on Law Review tend to be the people with the most opportunities. That being said, I'm a smaller legal market, especially compared to New York, and Florida's economy has been hit worse than most. Still, I would imagine the situation would be relatively similar in similarly ranked schools up north.
Edit:
Re: BB's comments.
While I am in good spot, in retrospect, honestly, I wish I had sent in transfer apps to Ivy type schools after my 1L year. Some of my peers with equal or less grades got in to schools like NYU and Penn. I probably would have at least considered if I had gotten into one of these schools. While having less debt is nice, the trade off is less opportunity. Going to a school like Florida is good if you don't mind keeping your options limited. It's very hard to get a job outside the state, and there isn't as much high end work in-state, compared to markets like NYC or LA. Many of the very best law firms don't even offices in-state, or if they do, they are small, satellite type offices.
On the other hand, after interning at the US Attorney's Office last summer, I do have an interest in possibly working for the government- where I would be at less of a disadvantage as a UF grad. It's not as a cut and dry as BB makes it, at least if you want to keep your options open as much as possible. But if someone is certain that they want to stay in their non-big market region, going to a well regarded regional school and graduating with significantly less debt is probably smarter than going to an elite school and graduating with a shit load of debt. I know someone is going to Harvard who is going to work at the same firm I am working at this summer- we're both getting paid the same, but his debt load is probably 3x mine. :hmm:
Quote from: stjaba on March 24, 2011, 02:34:27 PM
Edit:
In retrospect, honestly, I wish I had sent in transfer apps to Ivy type schools after my 1L year. With my grades, I would have been accepted to at least one of them. I probably would have considered if I had gotten into a school like Chicago or better. While having less debt is nice, the trade off is less opportunity. Going to a school like Florida is good if you don't mind keeping your options limited. It's very hard to get a job outside the state, and there isn't as much high end work in-state, compared to markets like NYC or LA. Many of the very best law firms don't even offices in-state, or if they do, they are small, satellite type offices.
I don't know man - I think you're in an excellent situation. Are your 'options' limited somewhat'? Yeah, they probably are. It'd be hard to get into a NYC whiteshoe firm.
But the State of Florida is hardly chopped liver, and you'll probably have your pick of any position you want. Firms will love it that you have local ties and aren't looking to leave, You went to a law school they all know and respect, and your mother's position certainly helps too.
Would your position be any better if you were now merely top third of your class at Yale, rather than Law Review at Florida? I'm not sure.
Sometimes we can worry too much about "keeping our options open".
Quote from: Barrister on March 24, 2011, 02:46:50 PM
I don't know man - I think you're in an excellent situation. Are your 'options' limited somewhat'? Yeah, they probably are. It'd be hard to get into a NYC whiteshoe firm.
But the State of Florida is hardly chopped liver, and you'll probably have your pick of any position you want. Firms will love it that you have local ties and aren't looking to leave, You went to a law school they all know and respect, and your mother's position certainly helps too.
Would your position be any better if you were now merely top third of your class at Yale, rather than Law Review at Florida? I'm not sure.
Sometimes we can worry too much about "keeping our options open".
All good points- but no doubt I would be in a better position being in the top third @ Yale(though actually Yale doesn't rank its students). I would have an inside track at getting a Circuit clerkship, for instance. If I wanted to go into academia, Yale would provide a huge advantage. At UF, maybe 2-3 people get a Circuit clerkship a year, which is something that I am interested in, whereas a fairly high number of Yale people get those jobs. There's probably a 20 law professors in the country with a UF law degree, while there's literally hundreds, I bet, of Yale grads teaching. Yale is the cream of the cream, especially because it's a relatively small law school, compared to a school like Harvard, which has the one of the biggest law schools at the country. But I would say your example would be accurate at a school like Georgetown- I don't think I would be better off being in the top third @ Georgetown than top 5% at UF, especially once debt is considered.
Quote from: stjaba on March 24, 2011, 03:36:21 PM
All good points- but no doubt I would be in a better position being in the top third @ Yale(though actually Yale doesn't rank its students). I would have an inside track at getting a Circuit clerkship, for instance. If I wanted to go into academia, Yale would provide a huge advantage. At UF, maybe 2-3 people get a Circuit clerkship a year, which is something that I am interested in, whereas a fairly high number of Yale people get those jobs. There's probably a 20 law professors in the country with a UF law degree, while there's literally hundreds, I bet, of Yale grads teaching. Yale is the cream of the cream, especially because it's a relatively small law school, compared to a school like Harvard, which has the one of the biggest law schools at the country. But I would say your example would be accurate at a school like Georgetown- I don't think I would be better off being in the top third @ Georgetown than top 5% at UF, especially once debt is considered.
Fair points. Yale, perhaps, is its own special case.
I am surprised by how much weight what school you went to carries. Does it still matter long after you are out of school?
In most professional jobs, a prestigous school matters a lot when you graduate, but if you are good at what you do, ten years later what school you went to doesn't matter, because your record carries a lot more weight.
In other words, if you really are an awesome lawyer, what does it matter?
Quote from: Berkut on March 24, 2011, 03:41:33 PM
I am surprised by how much weight what school you went to carries. Does it still matter long after you are out of school?
It matters quite a bit for your first job. The very large firms hire droves at a time, even now, and school is a very convenient sorting mechanism. The smaller firms can't interview everywhere and so prioritize.
As time goes on, it matters less, but it always helps.
Bottom line is that st. j is right and if count is seriously considering a firm job, columbia is the place to go.
Quote from: Barrister on March 24, 2011, 11:47:58 AM
But MInsky - you might be in a big white shoe law firm, but do you practice corporate law? II thought you were more of a litigator for some reason.
Commercial litigation - contract, securities, RE, IP lit, some white collar. And even one big constitutional case - big firms do sometimes handle speech and commerce clause cases from time to time.
I did do some transactional capital markets work years ago, which was not as fun. The tax guys seem to have interesting work though.
Nice to see you again Count. :) I'm a first-year law student at Harvard now. I did not do particularly well first semester, and I still don't know exactly what I want to do with a law degree, so I can't be of much help advice-wise.
But I do strongly suggest not deferring since you've already gotten in. You'll might get cold feet, working as a paralegal when you've already gotten into law school seems sort of categorically confusing, and there may be the feeling of being "behind" the 21-year-olds who went straight through from undergrad.
And I don't think foreign travel is foreclosed to you forever. Columbia probably has some kind of funding for non-profit summer work overseas your 1L summer. I know one person in my section is going to India to do some kind of internship with their constitutional court, IIRC. And there maybe even some kind of "study abroad" program if you're desperate to get out of the country. (Harvard has a way you can do your last year in Paris or at UC-Berkeley...).
Hell, I'm getting funding to travel to exotic Knoxville, TN this summer to work at the public defender's office there! :alberta:
Knoxville is a very nice city. :)
Also, I get the sense the ACLU is extremely competitive and kind of the crown jewel for progressive-minded law students.
WTF? Is Languish turning into a forum for lawyers?
Quote from: Caliga on March 24, 2011, 04:19:45 PM
Knoxville is a very nice city. :)
I'm excited. :) Driving from Philadelphia to Georgia a couple of years ago, the Great Smoky area was truly gorgeous.
Never been to Knoxville proper but the cost of living compares favorably to Cambridge. :bleeding: Just need to find a summer sublet and order my season pass for Dollywood and I'm all set. :bowler:
Capetano will be: the young Robert Downey Jr. in True Believer. Kind of.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on March 24, 2011, 04:25:25 PM
I'm excited. :) Driving from Philadelphia to Georgia a couple of years ago, the Great Smoky area was truly gorgeous.
Never been to Knoxville proper but the cost of living compares favorably to Cambridge. :bleeding: Just need to find a summer sublet and order my season pass for Dollywood and I'm all set. :bowler:
Maybe we can meet up. I can get to Knoxville in four hours or so, and I usually pass through it on my way to Atlanta (sometimes I take the Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga route instead).
Dollywood is expensive and the traffic in that area is :bleeding: , just FYI. For Smokies fun, I like the Oconaluftee village and Harrah's Cherokee Casino in NC better. Exploring the National Park is fun, too. Climbing Clingman's Dome on a (rare) clear day: also recommended.
Quote from: DGuller on March 24, 2011, 04:23:35 PM
WTF? Is Languish turning into a forum for lawyers?
It's more like more and more ordinary Languishistas are
becomming lawyers.
Not a surprise, really, as 'obnoxiousness' and 'a love of argument for its own sake' are sorta the defining characteristics of a Languishista ... :D
Quote from: Caliga on March 24, 2011, 04:33:21 PM]Maybe we can meet up. I can get to Knoxville in four hours or so, and I usually pass through it on my way to Atlanta (sometimes I take the Louisville-Nashville-Chattanooga route instead).
:) That would be fun. I actually applied at the Louisville-Jefferson County public defender's office (which is apparently one of the best in the country and has brought six cases before the Supreme Court), but they only wanted 2Ls who could get limited-practice licenses...
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 24, 2011, 04:28:06 PM
Capetano will be: the young Robert Downey Jr. in True Believer. Kind of.
I'll have to watch that. I love James Woods.
Quote from: DGuller on March 24, 2011, 04:23:35 PM
WTF? Is Languish turning into a forum for lawyers?
Turning... into? :huh:
Welcome back Count :cool:
Take the year off, you'll never regret it.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 24, 2011, 05:37:36 PM
Welcome back Count :cool:
Take the year off, you'll never regret it.
Don't lie to the kid. He'll regret his decision, no matter which way he decides.
Think about it this way. Travelling is a lot more fun with money than without. Go to law school, make big bucks, THEN travel.
Quote from: lustindarkness on March 24, 2011, 04:49:33 AM
Welcome back. My 2 pennies: If "travelling the world to find yourself" does not include the military, go straight to law school.
I agree.
I know a fellow office assistant in the government. We joined the government in the same year, actually. She is a very bright girl and received top marks in her interviews. After working a few months, she decided that she wanted to experience new things while she was still young. So she quit and did a master's degree in the UK, thinking that she could always come back (the government recruits office assistants every year).
2 years later she did come back, and again easily impressed the interviewers.
But guess what, times have changed. I have a defined benefit pension that is indexed to inflation. She doesn't. Only some sort of contribution plan, and she has to deduct part of her salary every month for it. Her starting salary was a lot lower than mine. All kinds of benefits were cut. Seniority is important, and she voluntarily put herself 2 years behind in the long queue for promotion.
Count, don't make a similar mistake that she made. Start your career ASAP.
And don't move to an island that is basically one giant pressure cooker.
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2011, 08:50:50 PMTravelling is a lot more fun with money than without. Go to law school, make big bucks, THEN travel.
I concur with Mingy the Merciless.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 24, 2011, 09:46:52 PM
And don't move to an island that is basically one giant pressure cooker.
HK island is only a small part of HK. The majority of the population, including yours truly, do not live on the island :contract:
Don't listen to the last three schmucks.
Quote from: katmai on March 24, 2011, 09:50:01 PM
Don't listen to the last three schmucks.
Don't you have a boom mike or something to hold?
Quote from: Monoriu on March 24, 2011, 09:49:56 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 24, 2011, 09:46:52 PM
And don't move to an island that is basically one giant pressure cooker.
HK island is only a small part of HK. The majority of the population, including yours truly, do not live on the island :contract:
Then don't move to HK. And listen to Kats.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2011, 09:50:56 PM
Quote from: katmai on March 24, 2011, 09:50:01 PM
Don't listen to the last three schmucks.
Don't you have a boom mike or something to hold?
Mr. i haven't been past the Mississippi needs to STFU
Quote from: katmai on March 24, 2011, 09:52:09 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2011, 09:50:56 PM
Quote from: katmai on March 24, 2011, 09:50:01 PM
Don't listen to the last three schmucks.
Don't you have a boom mike or something to hold?
Mr. i haven't been past the Mississippi needs to STFU
I was in New Orleans yesterday. So there. :P
omg 1 time in 40 years!
Why are you so intent on destroying Count's future by endorsing some sort of silly "self-discovery" bullshit anyway?
I guess I should make a substantive comment at some point.
Count, I worked for 4 years after undergrad and before going to lawschool. If I had gone to law school right out of college, I would not have been able to do well enough for a biglaw job. I don't know your whole situation, but I endorse a year spent working at a 9-5 job before lawschool (or a short military hitch; it should serve the same purpose).
But I don't recommend going straight to law school, and I don't recommend fucking around for a year. Do something that will drastically improve your time management skills.
Quote from: stjaba on March 24, 2011, 03:36:21 PM
But I would say your example would be accurate at a school like Georgetown- I don't think I would be better off being in the top third @ Georgetown than top 5% at UF, especially once debt is considered.
My best friend graduated from Georgetown with $125,000 in debt in 1997. She was in the top third of her class, clerked for the gubmint in 1L and 2L, and is a triple-minority (Black Asian woman). When I met her in 2000, she was answering phones with me at a teleconferencing company making $12/hour and defaulting on most of her loans. In 2003, she finally got a law position... making $35k/year handling unemployment cases paid for by the state. Now, she's a mediator/judge working for the state hearing the cases she formerly handled, making about $45k/year. Her loans are still slowly being chipped away, but as of now she owes over $100,000 on them. (What's really interesting is that Toni is the kind of person that everyone loves, people gravitate toward, and is quite obviously brilliant... so it wasn't even a personality thing.)
To be fair, she did have options in larger law firms when she graduated, but in a kind of soul-sucking, stick a nail in your eye kind of practice and she just couldn't do it. And there weren't a lot. She said she had maybe one or two offers that were the chew them up and spit them out kind of jobs for newly minted lawyers.
Seems like a silly field to get into these days.
Quote from: merithyn on March 24, 2011, 10:16:05 PMSeems like a silly field to get into these days.
10% of the lawyers make 90% of the money. The rest work hand to mouth like everybody else.
By the way, Count: Welcome back. You've been missed. :)
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2011, 10:09:38 PM
Why are you so intent on destroying Count's future by endorsing some sort of silly "self-discovery" bullshit anyway?
Because you turned out so well joining Bawlmer PoPo.
Quote from: katmai on March 24, 2011, 10:32:48 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2011, 10:09:38 PM
Why are you so intent on destroying Count's future by endorsing some sort of silly "self-discovery" bullshit anyway?
Because you turned out so well joining Bawlmer PoPo.
I didn't need to travel the world for a year to see people trying to kill me, I could get that from my coworkers.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2011, 10:51:46 PM
Quote from: katmai on March 24, 2011, 10:32:48 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2011, 10:09:38 PM
Why are you so intent on destroying Count's future by endorsing some sort of silly "self-discovery" bullshit anyway?
Because you turned out so well joining Bawlmer PoPo.
I didn't need to travel the world for a year to see people trying to kill me, I could get that from my coworkers.
No one's tried to kill me while I've been traveling the world.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 24, 2011, 10:58:35 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2011, 10:51:46 PM
Quote from: katmai on March 24, 2011, 10:32:48 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2011, 10:09:38 PM
Why are you so intent on destroying Count's future by endorsing some sort of silly "self-discovery" bullshit anyway?
Because you turned out so well joining Bawlmer PoPo.
I didn't need to travel the world for a year to see people trying to kill me, I could get that from my coworkers.
No one's tried to kill me while I've been traveling the world.
That's because I don't have a passport, you simple little shit. Just wait, shitbird.
thanks all. again, I
probably won't defer, and if I did, I'd probably just try to get a 9-5 job (I have already spent a year fucking around, which I don't think will hurt me too much- it seems like a lot of people work dead end jobs for a year or two [or more] before going to law school and end up ok, but I really don't know) and/or "do some traveling," but not around the world. No money for that. I am getting the old cold feet though... Hopefully it goes away after the admitted students program.
Jaba, congrats! sounds like you're doing very very well. I'm familiar with TLS. They're kind of douchey but they have lots of useful information and they certainly informed my application process. My condolences for the fact that you grew up in, are going to school in, and may live forever in Florida. And Capetan Mihali- congrats! You're at Harvard! Also, I'm fairly certain Columbia does have semester abroad programs and the like, which is appealing (I would love to spend a semester in England).
re: state schools. MA just got a state law school (like, a year or two ago), which is cheap but a very poor option. I don't think it's accredited yet. It's competing with Harvard, BC, BU, Suffolk, Northeastern, and New England School of Law.
re: public interest jobs. You know how tons and tons of prospective law students say they "want to help people"? It's not so much that I want to help people as I want to want to help people. It would be cool if I was that sort of person. However, if I really wanted to help people, I would probably have some sort of track record of doing it. Still, WHO WILL DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION???
in my case, having options is a biggie, since I am not sure what I want to do long term. Short term I'd love to clerk.
dps:
QuoteDon't lie to the kid. He'll regret his decision, no matter which way he decides.
So, so true.
On that note, I just found out I was waitlisted from Chicago, my long-time dream school. Ah well.
If you want to travel in a career, getting a business degree and joining a multinational is a way to do it.
I have friends in Mass who go their law degrees and had a lot of trouble finding jobs after, at some point, and ikt still may be the case Mass had the highest lawyer-human ratio int he country, so be prepared to move elsewhere. Or be ready to work your way up to the top over decades.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 24, 2011, 10:09:38 PM
Why are you so intent on destroying Count's future by endorsing some sort of silly "self-discovery" bullshit anyway?
:hug:
Quote from: alfred russel on March 25, 2011, 02:45:18 AM
If you want to travel in a career, getting a business degree and joining a multinational is a way to do it.
:cool:
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on March 25, 2011, 06:59:38 AM
I have friends in Mass who go their law degrees and had a lot of trouble finding jobs after, at some point, and ikt still may be the case Mass had the highest lawyer-human ratio int he country, so be prepared to move elsewhere. Or be ready to work your way up to the top over decades.
Yeah, like every other educated person in Mass. is a lawyer. That's why the state is so full of fail. :smarty:
I know right?
I used to work with a woman at Harvard who was so excited when she got into Boston College Law so she could pursue her dreams of... wait for it.... wait for it.... being a lawyer for the ACLU. :lol:
I was like "lol have fun being poor". :)
Man did she have nice tits, too. :(
*checks*
Hey neat, she ended up working for a firm that defends illegal immigrants. :)
Quote from: Caliga on March 25, 2011, 07:09:51 AM
*checks*
Hey neat, she ended up working for a firm that defends illegal immigrants. :)
:mad:
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 25, 2011, 07:42:35 AM
Quote from: Caliga on March 25, 2011, 07:09:51 AM
*checks*
Hey neat, she ended up working for a firm that defends illegal immigrants. :)
:mad:
Illegal immigrants need nice tits too.
Worthless without pics.
I don't have any pics of some admin from ten years ago. :lol:
She might not look good anymore anyway.
Quote from: Count on March 25, 2011, 02:19:02 AM
thanks all. again, I probably won't defer, and if I did, I'd probably just try to get a 9-5 job (I have already spent a year fucking around, which I don't think will hurt me too much- it seems like a lot of people work dead end jobs for a year or two [or more] before going to law school and end up ok, but I really don't know) and/or "do some traveling," but not around the world. No money for that. I am getting the old cold feet though... Hopefully it goes away after the admitted students program.
Jaba, congrats! sounds like you're doing very very well. I'm familiar with TLS. They're kind of douchey but they have lots of useful information and they certainly informed my application process. My condolences for the fact that you grew up in, are going to school in, and may live forever in Florida. And Capetan Mihali- congrats! You're at Harvard! Also, I'm fairly certain Columbia does have semester abroad programs and the like, which is appealing (I would love to spend a semester in England).
re: state schools. MA just got a state law school (like, a year or two ago), which is cheap but a very poor option. I don't think it's accredited yet. It's competing with Harvard, BC, BU, Suffolk, Northeastern, and New England School of Law.
re: public interest jobs. You know how tons and tons of prospective law students say they "want to help people"? It's not so much that I want to help people as I want to want to help people. It would be cool if I was that sort of person. However, if I really wanted to help people, I would probably have some sort of track record of doing it. Still, WHO WILL DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION???
in my case, having options is a biggie, since I am not sure what I want to do long term. Short term I'd love to clerk.
dps:
QuoteDon't lie to the kid. He'll regret his decision, no matter which way he decides.
So, so true.
On that note, I just found out I was waitlisted from Chicago, my long-time dream school. Ah well.
Helping people is over-rated. Hurting people by placing them in long-term incarceratin is where the self-satisfaction comes from. :cool:
Isn't being waitlisted, all in all, a good thing? :unsure: I spent a few days at U of Chicago - seemed like a really cool place.
Quote from: Barrister on March 25, 2011, 03:01:08 PM
Quote from: Count on March 25, 2011, 02:19:02 AM
thanks all. again, I probably won't defer, and if I did, I'd probably just try to get a 9-5 job (I have already spent a year fucking around, which I don't think will hurt me too much- it seems like a lot of people work dead end jobs for a year or two [or more] before going to law school and end up ok, but I really don't know) and/or "do some traveling," but not around the world. No money for that. I am getting the old cold feet though... Hopefully it goes away after the admitted students program.
Jaba, congrats! sounds like you're doing very very well. I'm familiar with TLS. They're kind of douchey but they have lots of useful information and they certainly informed my application process. My condolences for the fact that you grew up in, are going to school in, and may live forever in Florida. And Capetan Mihali- congrats! You're at Harvard! Also, I'm fairly certain Columbia does have semester abroad programs and the like, which is appealing (I would love to spend a semester in England).
re: state schools. MA just got a state law school (like, a year or two ago), which is cheap but a very poor option. I don't think it's accredited yet. It's competing with Harvard, BC, BU, Suffolk, Northeastern, and New England School of Law.
re: public interest jobs. You know how tons and tons of prospective law students say they "want to help people"? It's not so much that I want to help people as I want to want to help people. It would be cool if I was that sort of person. However, if I really wanted to help people, I would probably have some sort of track record of doing it. Still, WHO WILL DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION???
in my case, having options is a biggie, since I am not sure what I want to do long term. Short term I'd love to clerk.
dps:
QuoteDon't lie to the kid. He'll regret his decision, no matter which way he decides.
So, so true.
On that note, I just found out I was waitlisted from Chicago, my long-time dream school. Ah well.
Helping people is over-rated. Hurting people by placing them in long-term incarceratin is where the self-satisfaction comes from. :cool:
Isn't being waitlisted, all in all, a good thing? :unsure: I spent a few days at U of Chicago - seemed like a really cool place.
usually it's just a soft rejection, but i'll give them a shot
Quote from: Barrister on March 25, 2011, 03:01:08 PMHelping people is over-rated. Hurting people by placing them in long-term incarceratin is where the self-satisfaction comes from. :cool:
Interesting. I assumed you would've argued "helping people by placing them in long-term incarceration > being an ACLU lawyer."
CONFESSION: I give money to the ACLU. :blush:
Quote from: Caliga on March 29, 2011, 05:18:26 PM
CONFESSION: I give money to the ACLU. :blush:
Terrorist.
Quote from: Caliga on March 29, 2011, 05:18:26 PM
CONFESSION: I give money to the ACLU. :blush:
:)
I donated money in the hopes of becoming a card carrying member, but the card was just something you cut out of the letter they sent. Really flimsy piece of crap. :mad:
Quote from: Caliga on March 29, 2011, 05:18:26 PM
CONFESSION: I give money to the ACLU. :blush:
I'm a Kentucky Colonel. Call me sir, boy.
Quote from: Count on March 29, 2011, 05:27:53 PM
I donated money in the hopes of becoming a card carrying member, but the card was just something you cut out of the letter they sent. Really flimsy piece of crap. :mad:
I have one of those somewhere. :cool:
Quote from: Count on March 29, 2011, 05:27:53 PM
:)
I donated money in the hopes of becoming a card carrying member, but the card was just something you cut out of the letter they sent. Really flimsy piece of crap. :mad:
Laminate the fucker and you're good to go.
Quote
One Virginia Law Student's Monument to Rejection
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.abovethelaw.com%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F04%2FRejection-letter-UVA-22-540x404.jpg&hash=caf5d547a876786116be6a63c3fe4b7a45a43ffa)
We have all felt the sting of rejection.
Law students have been particularly stung of late, as law firms continue to be rather parsimonious with job offers.
But a third year law student at the University of Virginia has turned rejection into an art form: the attached model of UVA Law built entirely out of law-firm rejection letters!!
Here's the Above the Law post that broke the news of this deranged act of brilliance. The sculptor was not identified by ATL.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.abovethelaw.com%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F04%2FRejection-letter-UVA-540x401.jpg&hash=09115ade5b227e31fae17ef0a7a10e1e4f3d3e11)
http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2011/04/04/one-virginia-law-students-monument-to-rejection/
:D
Quote from: Jacob on March 29, 2011, 05:03:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on March 25, 2011, 03:01:08 PMHelping people is over-rated. Hurting people by placing them in long-term incarceratin is where the self-satisfaction comes from. :cool:
Interesting. I assumed you would've argued "helping people by placing them in long-term incarceration > being an ACLU lawyer."
Upon reflection, I like your answer more than mine. :hug:
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 12:28:14 PM
The problem is the debt- it hampers any movement so if I decide I hate it, I can't just give it up and do something else. I'm sure I want to be a lawyer now, but I'm not sure I want to be a lawyer in 20 years.
Or 3.
It's terrible. I wouldn't recommend it.
At least he got rejection letters. I rarely get so much as that.
Quote from: Ideologue on April 08, 2011, 12:28:49 PM
Quote from: Count on March 24, 2011, 12:28:14 PM
The problem is the debt- it hampers any movement so if I decide I hate it, I can't just give it up and do something else. I'm sure I want to be a lawyer now, but I'm not sure I want to be a lawyer in 20 years.
Or 3.
It's terrible. I wouldn't recommend it.
Pfft - you haven't even graduated. :rolleyes:
I like my job. :)