Calling all lawyers (and other sundry old people)

[HisMajestyBOB]

Count, I don't know much about law school, but I will wish you good luck!




You're going to need it!

Count - law school? Really?

Do you really want to be a lawyer? Why not do something interesting, like the state department, or intelligence (NSA or something)?

Getting into the State Department isn't a primary job choice. Maybe 10% of all applicants each year get accepted. It's something you apply to and hope for while doing something else.

And with all the talk about hiring freezes and budget cuts, intelligence isn't looking so hot either.

I know, because those are the things I'm looking at. So Count, definitely become a lawyer and don't even bother with intelligence or State. 

[Caliga]

I wonder what the career outlook in the organized crime track is looking like these days.

[Barrister]

well, working as a staff attorney for the aclu someday would be a dream job. I don't really know how to make that happen- those positions are extremely competitive- but that would be amazing. I want to retain some idealism even as I try to take a realistic view. There are a number of public interest jobs in different fields that I'm interested in, too, and they would qualify for loan repayment (get rid of the debt in ten years, I believe). From what I understand it is actually harder to get a public interest job than a biglaw job.

biglaw would allow me to break even within about 5 years, I believe. So it is very appealing. However, I'm not sure it makes sense to pay big for a shot (a fairly good one, out of Columbia, but still no guarantee) at a job there's a good chance I'll hate. and I think the average length of stay is only 2 or 3 years anyway.

I don't know what it is about law school and law students.  Both groups are always talking about that 1% (or even 0.1%) or amazing high-profile legal jobs.  Clerking at the Supreme Court, doing constitutional litigation for the ACLU, working for Cravaths, whatever.

Even for Ivy League schools, the majority of graduates don't win up in those positions.  They wind up doing far more humble work. 

Why don't law schools push for the kinds of jobs that most people wind up practicing?

[Count]

law school apps were down 11% this year (people got the message). so i'm sure they'll be up 20% next year.

I think the economy will have improved by the time I graduate, but there is a lot of uncertainty, to say the least.

[Caliga]

Why don't law schools push for the kinds of jobs that most people wind up practicing?

Higher ed is a business (a tax-free business, no less).  Institutions don't give a fuck what you do once you leave as long as you pay the damn bill.

The higher ed bubble will burst soon enough, don't worry.

[alfred russel]

If the option for a year off is delivering pizza, or working a non lawyer legal job in Boston, then surely the better option is law school.

$200k isn't that much debt for a Columbia law grad whose current employment is delivering pizza. The yearly payments are probably under $10k after taxes. I'd wager your income will go up by more than that.

[Count]

well, working as a staff attorney for the aclu someday would be a dream job. I don't really know how to make that happen- those positions are extremely competitive- but that would be amazing. I want to retain some idealism even as I try to take a realistic view. There are a number of public interest jobs in different fields that I'm interested in, too, and they would qualify for loan repayment (get rid of the debt in ten years, I believe). From what I understand it is actually harder to get a public interest job than a biglaw job.

biglaw would allow me to break even within about 5 years, I believe. So it is very appealing. However, I'm not sure it makes sense to pay big for a shot (a fairly good one, out of Columbia, but still no guarantee) at a job there's a good chance I'll hate. and I think the average length of stay is only 2 or 3 years anyway.

I don't know what it is about law school and law students.  Both groups are always talking about that 1% (or even 0.1%) or amazing high-profile legal jobs.  Clerking at the Supreme Court, doing constitutional litigation for the ACLU, working for Cravaths, whatever.

Even for Ivy League schools, the majority of graduates don't win up in those positions.  They wind up doing far more humble work. 

Why don't law schools push for the kinds of jobs that most people wind up practicing?

it's because you can imagine going down that route (ie, being super super successful) before you actually hit reality. And if you're dreaming, why not dream big? The personal statement I wrote for my law schools apps was about my passionate love for the CONSTITUTION. (though I avoided actually using the word constitution)

[Barrister]

it's because you can imagine going down that route (ie, being super super successful) before you actually hit reality. And if you're dreaming, why not dream big? The personal statement I wrote for my law schools apps was about my passionate love for the CONSTITUTION. (though I avoided actually using the word constitution)

I didn't know you'd joined the Tea Party.

[Count]

it's because you can imagine going down that route (ie, being super super successful) before you actually hit reality. And if you're dreaming, why not dream big? The personal statement I wrote for my law schools apps was about my passionate love for the CONSTITUTION. (though I avoided actually using the word constitution)

I didn't know you'd joined the Tea Party.

no, but generic massachusetts liberals can love the constitution too

[Count]

a major reason the legal market is over-saturated is the availability of federal loans for pretty much every student and the fact that there are a ridiculous amount of law schools. So smartypants like me have to worry about competition from bumfucks who couldn't ace the lsat.   

it's a bubble. I'm confident I'll be ok out of Columbia or a peer school -even without biglaw, there are ways to manage the debt on a lower salary, I just need to be able to get a legal job- but tons of people graduate from shitty schools with enormous debt and no job prospects.

[Count]

and with that, i'm off to my job as a high-powered pizza delivery man (used to be a pizza delivery boy, but I have a bachelor's degree now). 

[Barrister]

a major reason the legal market is over-saturated is the availability of federal loans for pretty much every student and there are a ridiculous amount of law schools. So smartypants like me have to worry about competition from bumfucks who couldn't ace the lsat.   

it's a bubble. I'm confident I'll be ok out of Columbia or a peer school -even without biglaw, there are ways to manage the debt on a lower salary, I just need to be able to get a legal job- but tons of people graduate from shitty schools with enormous debt and no job prospects.

If you lived anywhere else but the NE, I'd unequivocally tell you to forget the Ivy League and get your degree at a good state school.  Like Stjaba is doing at Florida.

But I'm willing to bet that in Mass. the place is probably crawling with Ivy League grads.  So I'm less certain...

[stjaba]

it's because you can imagine going down that route (ie, being super super successful) before you actually hit reality. And if you're dreaming, why not dream big? The personal statement I wrote for my law schools apps was about my passionate love for the CONSTITUTION. (though I avoided actually using the word constitution)

When I read this, the first thing I thought of was the "So you want to go to law school" video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMvARy0lBLE. It's a must view for anyone in the legal profession.

Count,

I would recommend perusing the top law schools legal employment forum to get a sense of what the job market is like. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=23. Since I go to University of Florida, my perspective will be fairly different from someone going to Columbia, but it is my understanding that high prestigious public interest (PI)work(like the ACLU) is extremely competitive, even out of schools like Columbia. One further difficulty is that lots of times, these PI groups want people who show devotion to the PI cause. So, if you go the BigLaw route initially, you may be giving off the wrong signal to the PI groups, especially if you're competing for a job against people who've done nothing but PI work. Also more people are going PI right now since the BigLaw gravy train derailed. If you don't get top notch grades, you may have to settle for a lower "prestigious" organization than the ACLU. Some of the BigLaw firms do sponsor full time PI work for a couple of their employees, so you could potentially do that for a while, but I imagine that would only last for a little bit.

One other advantage of going to Columbia, though, if you want to do PI work right out of law school is that I am confident that Columbia has great debt cancellation programs(in addition to federal loan programs) that would probably allow you to get your debt forgiven and/or reduced relatively quickly, so you wouldn't have to go the BigLaw route if you didn't want to.

One last thing is that you will probably have a really good shot(but not guarantee) of BigLaw coming from Columbia. I would definitely not recommend that you go to a lower ranked school, unless it's also a T14 school. Students outside most of the top schools outside of the T14 are  getting slaughtered in the job market unless they're in the top 10% of the class- this is true even at good schools like Emory, Minnesota, etc. If you go to a lower ranked schools, certain doors will be closed to you from the beginning, and other opportunities will be much harder to get. If you go to Columbia, you will have every opportunity in the world, assuming you get at least okay grades. You may think you want to do ACLU type work now, but you may end up wanting to do corporate work. Or maybe you want to eventually enter academia, for instance. Those same opportunities will not be there at lower ranked schools.

As for my current situation, fortunately I'm at the very top of my class @ UF, do not have much debt, had a ton of job interviews, and will have a high paying job for this summer.  . I have already job at a well regarded (for Florida) boutique firm this summer, and I am potentially going to split my summer at a large, corporate firm, if I am get an offer from them. I am looking to clerk with a judge after I graduate, but if not, hopefully I should have a position from one of the firms I am working for this summer. However, most of my classmates will not have good paying firm jobs this summer. I know other people who were in the top 5% of the class who have yet to land anything for this upcoming summer or who are interning/working for free this summer. And people on Law Review tend to be the people with the most opportunities. That being said, I'm a smaller legal market, especially compared to New York, and Florida's economy has been hit worse than most. Still, I would imagine the situation would be relatively similar in similarly ranked schools up north.

Edit:
Re: BB's comments.

While I am in good spot, in retrospect, honestly, I wish I had sent in transfer apps to Ivy type schools after my 1L year. Some of my peers with equal or less grades got in to schools like NYU and Penn. I probably would have at least considered if I had gotten into one of these schools. While having less debt is nice, the trade off is less opportunity. Going to a school like Florida is good if you don't mind keeping your options limited. It's very hard to get a job outside the state, and there isn't as much high end work in-state, compared to markets like NYC or LA. Many of the very best law firms don't even offices in-state, or if they do, they are small, satellite type offices.

On the other hand, after interning at the US Attorney's Office last summer, I do have an interest in possibly working for the government- where I would be at less of a disadvantage as a UF grad. It's not as a cut and dry as BB makes it, at least if you want to keep your options open as much as possible. But if someone is certain that they want to stay in their non-big market region, going to a well regarded regional school and graduating with significantly less debt is probably smarter than going to an elite school and graduating with a shit load of debt. I know someone is going to Harvard who is going to work at the same firm I am working at this summer- we're both getting paid the same, but his debt load is probably 3x mine. 

[Barrister]

Edit:

In retrospect, honestly, I wish I had sent in transfer apps to Ivy type schools after my 1L year. With my grades, I would have been accepted to at least one of them. I probably would have considered if I had gotten into a school like Chicago or better. While having less debt is nice, the trade off is less opportunity. Going to a school like Florida is good if you don't mind keeping your options limited. It's very hard to get a job outside the state, and there isn't as much high end work in-state, compared to markets like NYC or LA. Many of the very best law firms don't even offices in-state, or if they do, they are small, satellite type offices.

I don't know man - I think you're in an excellent situation.  Are your 'options' limited somewhat'?  Yeah, they probably are.  It'd be hard to get into a NYC whiteshoe firm.

But the State of Florida is hardly chopped liver, and you'll probably have your pick of any position you want.  Firms will love it that you have local ties and aren't looking to leave, You went to a law school they all know and respect, and your mother's position certainly helps too.

Would your position be any better if you were now merely top third of your class at Yale, rather than Law Review at Florida?  I'm not sure.

Sometimes we can worry too much about "keeping our options open".

[stjaba]

I don't know man - I think you're in an excellent situation.  Are your 'options' limited somewhat'?  Yeah, they probably are.  It'd be hard to get into a NYC whiteshoe firm.

But the State of Florida is hardly chopped liver, and you'll probably have your pick of any position you want.  Firms will love it that you have local ties and aren't looking to leave, You went to a law school they all know and respect, and your mother's position certainly helps too.

Would your position be any better if you were now merely top third of your class at Yale, rather than Law Review at Florida?  I'm not sure.

Sometimes we can worry too much about "keeping our options open".

All good points- but no doubt I would be in a better position being in the top third @ Yale(though actually Yale doesn't rank its students). I would have an inside track at getting a Circuit clerkship, for instance. If I wanted to go into academia, Yale would provide a huge advantage.  At UF, maybe 2-3 people get a Circuit clerkship a year, which is something that I am interested in, whereas a fairly high number of Yale people get those jobs. There's probably a 20 law professors in the country with a UF law degree, while there's literally hundreds, I bet, of Yale grads teaching. Yale is the cream of the cream, especially because it's a relatively small law school, compared to a school like Harvard, which has the one of the biggest law schools at the country. But I would say your example would be accurate at a school like Georgetown- I don't think I would be better off being in the top third @ Georgetown than top 5% at UF, especially once debt is considered.