Over the weekend I visited Auschwitz. After the guide was telling me about the deaths of some Polish prisoners, I asked him why I see swastika graffitti in Poland.
He said, "I think it is just a misunderstanding. For example, I am a soccer fan. The two biggest teams in Krakow are rivals. The first team refers to the others' supporters as dogs. The second team refers to the others' supporters as jews. These people don't understand what they are saying - it is a misunderstanding."
Martinus, as these people are your countrymen, can you provide any insight for us?
What's wrong with dogs? :(
Quote from: alfred russel on March 22, 2011, 02:47:01 PM
Over the weekend I visited Auschwitz.
You call that migration period? :mad:
Quote from: The Brain on March 22, 2011, 02:49:37 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 22, 2011, 02:47:01 PM
Over the weekend I visited Auschwitz.
You call that migration period? :mad:
I cheated on the migration period. :(
That sort of thing happens in Italy, too. There are pictures of the Lazio and Livorno (I think those are the two) teams waving Nazi and USSR flags, respectively, as part of their rivalry.
Quote from: Habbaku on March 22, 2011, 02:54:03 PM
That sort of thing happens in Italy, too. There are pictures of the Lazio and Livorno (I think those are the two) teams waving Nazi and USSR flags, respectively, as part of their rivalry.
But do any of them wave flags with pictures of dogs on them?
:)
Quote from: Tyr on March 22, 2011, 02:48:54 PM
What's wrong with dogs? :(
In Polish:
dogs=pigs, ie Police
curiously enough, the team in question just bought an Israeli player and their fans have absolutely no problem with that, while still making antisemitic remarks towards their rivals.
Quote from: Habbaku on March 22, 2011, 02:54:03 PM
That sort of thing happens in Italy, too. There are pictures of the Lazio and Livorno (I think those are the two) teams waving Nazi and USSR flags, respectively, as part of their rivalry.
It isn't the same sort of thing at all. Poles spraypainting swastikas in Warsaw isn't that much different than Jews doing the same. It isn't like a German, Italian, or Frenchman being a Nazi (even if that is ridiculous as well).
Also, the fan base of a (major?) european city using "jew" as an insult in 2011 is just messed up.
Quote from: alfred russel on March 22, 2011, 03:06:08 PM
It isn't the same sort of thing at all. Poles spraypainting swastikas in Warsaw isn't that much different than Jews doing the same. It isn't like a German, Italian, or Frenchman being a Nazi (even if that is ridiculous as well).
Also, the fan base of a (major?) european city using "jew" as an insult in 2011 is just messed up.
Soccer fans are largely sub-human scum.
Quote from: alfred russel on March 22, 2011, 02:47:01 PM
Over the weekend I visited Auschwitz. After the guide was telling me about the deaths of some Polish prisoners, I asked him why I see swastika graffitti in Poland.
He said, "I think it is just a misunderstanding. For example, I am a soccer fan. The two biggest teams in Krakow are rivals. The first team refers to the others' supporters as dogs. The second team refers to the others' supporters as jews. These people don't understand what they are saying - it is a misunderstanding."
Martinus, as these people are your countrymen, can you provide any insight for us?
Welcome to Poland.
Incidentally, there is only one insult these people see to be worse than "Jew". Wanna wager what it is?
For the record, I went to a counter protest this year when the neonazis and nationalists tried to make their march in Warsaw on 11 November (the Polish Independence Day). We forced the fuckers to go through a different route. :showoff:
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2011, 04:22:55 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 22, 2011, 02:47:01 PM
Over the weekend I visited Auschwitz. After the guide was telling me about the deaths of some Polish prisoners, I asked him why I see swastika graffitti in Poland.
He said, "I think it is just a misunderstanding. For example, I am a soccer fan. The two biggest teams in Krakow are rivals. The first team refers to the others' supporters as dogs. The second team refers to the others' supporters as jews. These people don't understand what they are saying - it is a misunderstanding."
Martinus, as these people are your countrymen, can you provide any insight for us?
Welcome to Poland.
Incidentally, there is only one insult these people see to be worse than "Jew". Wanna wager what it is?
:console:
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2011, 04:25:22 PM
Welcome to Poland.
Incidentally, there is only one insult these people see to be worse than "Jew". Wanna wager what it is?
:
FAG
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2011, 04:25:22 PM
For the record, I went to a counter protest this year when the neonazis and nationalists tried to make their march in Warsaw on 11 November (the Polish Independence Day). We forced the fuckers to go through a different route. :showoff:
You really have to explain--Polish nazis are a non sequitor. Does the ordinary pole realize that the real nazis had no use for them?
Quote from: alfred russel on March 22, 2011, 04:28:07 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2011, 04:25:22 PM
For the record, I went to a counter protest this year when the neonazis and nationalists tried to make their march in Warsaw on 11 November (the Polish Independence Day). We forced the fuckers to go through a different route. :showoff:
You really have to explain--Polish nazis are a non sequitor. Does the ordinary pole realize that the real nazis had no use for them?
I don't get it either. But that thing being said, antisemitism in Poland has a long history. Many Poles were complicit in Holocaust, sometimes quite actively. Like a lot of Eastern European nations, we are quite a nasty bunch - and quite idiosyncratic in our hatred.
Only recently the idea that not all Poles were Jew-saving angels during WW2 (and the reality was quite the contrary) is starting to come through, thanks largely to a single guy (a half Polish half Jewish historian) who just released his third popular history book (about how Poles got rich on Holocaust by looting homes abandoned by Jews and Auschwitz graves - and worse). He is universally hated by the right wing scum (just yesterday a bunch of Polish nationalist youth burned him in effigy - quite chilling, considering what imagery this invokes) as being "anti-Polish slanderer".
This country is changing - being dragged kicking and screaming by the elites into what seems like the European mainstream but it will take at least a generation (assuming no nasty thing happens that fucks it up) before it will be a proper modern society. That's why I hate it (and the role of the Polish catholic church, which is like an avatar of all these nationalistic, anti-semitic phobias) so much.
But to answer your question. I think ordinary Poles do realize that neonazis are tards. But they (the older generation) also (secretly) thinks that "Jews had it coming". It is less and less politically correct to say that, but the undercurrent is still there, like a sewage running underneath.
For the record, there is a lot of "justification" for continuing antisemitism after WW2 coming from the fact that allegedly many Jews joined the communist party post WW2. As far as I am concerned, being a gay man in Poland, I know that if I lived through 10% of what Jews had to live through in Poland - not just the Holocaust (during which your lovely Polish neighbours would turn you in - not even hoping for a reward but out of spite) but also during the pre-war period, I would fucking join any communist party to get my revenge on this brutish nation.
Everybody seemed so nice in Gdansk. Then again, I hid in the hotel until it was time to bug out.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 22, 2011, 04:42:59 PM
Everybody seemed so nice in Gdansk. Then again, I hid in the hotel until it was time to bug out.
Two thirds of Poles are rural folk. Think Deliverance with a Holocaust/pogrom vibe. City folk are incomparably better.
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2011, 04:44:18 PM
Think Deliverance with a Holocaust/pogrom vibe.
Great, I just envisioned Hans Frank raping Ned Beatty.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 22, 2011, 04:26:24 PM
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2011, 04:25:22 PM
Welcome to Poland.
Incidentally, there is only one insult these people see to be worse than "Jew". Wanna wager what it is?
:
FAG
I was gonna guess "American".
;)
Fortunately (for some strange reason) there are no Jews around in Poland to be offended by all of that swastika graffiti. :)
I've never known a Pole who didn't have severe issues.
Quote from: Neil on March 22, 2011, 06:49:46 PM
I've never known a Pole who didn't have severe issues.
Same here. Of course, the only Pole I know is Martinus, so I guess that's a gimme.
Does Sahib have severe issues? He doesn't seem to... :hmm:
I've never known any Polish people in real life. I've known a number of Polish-Americans but I don't think it makes sense to try to equate them with actual Poles.
Hmm, good point. It's so easy to forget about sane Poles when Martinus posts.
Marty's analysis is good, and since it applies to Hungary 100%, I assume it applies to Eastern Europe in general.
The term "jew" is an insult-word for the plebs here, and, in general, is used on people who are more successful than they are.
Crash course in east euro plebs vocabulary:
gypsy: someone poorer who endangers his wealth, and/or lazier than he is.
jew: someone more successful, and/or who is less lazy than him
gay: liberal intelligentsia
What do you do if you're a poor, lazy, jewish, homosexual member of the intelligentsia?
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on March 23, 2011, 03:02:14 AM
What do you do if you're a poor, lazy, jewish, homosexual member of the intelligentsia?
Get beaten up by nazi thugs?
Quote from: Tamas on March 23, 2011, 02:57:56 AM
Marty's analysis is good, and since it applies to Hungary 100%, I assume it applies to Eastern Europe in general.
The term "jew" is an insult-word for the plebs here, and, in general, is used on people who are more successful than they are.
Crash course in east euro plebs vocabulary:
gypsy: someone poorer who endangers his wealth, and/or lazier than he is.
jew: someone more successful, and/or who is less lazy than him
gay: liberal intelligentsia
:lol:
Are you: Gay Gypsy?
Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2011, 06:13:44 PM
Fortunately (for some strange reason) there are no Jews around in Poland to be offended by all of that swastika graffiti. :)
There is more and more people these days who admit to their Jewish ancestors, and a group (I would say under 100,000) of religious Orthodox Jews. One of the reformed rabbis in Warsaw is actually gay. :P
Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2011, 07:22:33 PM
Does Sahib have severe issues? He doesn't seem to... :hmm:
There was something but I can't remember what. Maybe he was a tomatocow. :hmm:
Sapora(sp?) certainly had issues as well. But then, they all chose to post here, so... /shrug
Quote from: Habbaku on March 22, 2011, 02:54:03 PM
That sort of thing happens in Italy, too. There are pictures of the Lazio and Livorno (I think those are the two) teams waving Nazi and USSR flags, respectively, as part of their rivalry.
Livorno and Lazio are probably the two more heavily politized football teams in Italy, to the extreme left and right respectively.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_JUeF8tYbiVw%2FTR88TKM_QnI%2FAAAAAAAACao%2FdYD_j0HifcY%2Fs1600%2Fdicanio1.jpg&hash=db286eee2d1e4a281b8e811dece4d7bc531c6d7c)
That's Paolo Di Canio, former striker of Lazio and hard core fascist, giving the raised arm to the Lazio ultras after a match.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fsp9.fotolog.com%2Fphoto%2F57%2F14%2F125%2Finaxio99%2F1199885209_f.jpg&hash=e550b9af3f38e432186599c1d9689d25114c0390)
That's Cristiano Lucarelli, former striker of Livorno and hard core communist, who used to raise his fist every time he scored.
:lol:
Ah Di Canio, he's one of those players who have their own song. "Fuck off Di Canio, Fuck off Di Canio" (ad infinitum) to the tune of La donna e mobile.
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 05:48:11 AM
Livorno and Lazio are probably the two more heavily politized football teams in Italy, to the extreme left and right respectively.
So it's extreme politics for entertainment? Pretending to be a communist might be sorta fun.
Quote from: Martinus on March 23, 2011, 03:17:39 AM
There is more and more people these days who admit to their Jewish ancestors, and a group (I would say under 100,000) of religious Orthodox Jews. One of the reformed rabbis in Warsaw is actually gay. :P
Is this gay gypsy jew rabbi secretly running Poland?
Quote from: Valmy on March 23, 2011, 02:44:32 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 05:48:11 AM
Livorno and Lazio are probably the two more heavily politized football teams in Italy, to the extreme left and right respectively.
So it's extreme politics for entertainment? Pretending to be a communist might be sorta fun.
Wut? Where do you get the entertainment angle from?
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 23, 2011, 02:44:32 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 05:48:11 AM
Livorno and Lazio are probably the two more heavily politized football teams in Italy, to the extreme left and right respectively.
So it's extreme politics for entertainment? Pretending to be a communist might be sorta fun.
Wut? Where do you get the entertainment angle from?
The issue is - is this some sort of sincere expression of actual political views, or is it akin to the singer Maddona's use of religious imagry?
Quote from: Martinus on March 22, 2011, 04:22:55 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on March 22, 2011, 02:47:01 PM
Over the weekend I visited Auschwitz. After the guide was telling me about the deaths of some Polish prisoners, I asked him why I see swastika graffitti in Poland.
He said, "I think it is just a misunderstanding. For example, I am a soccer fan. The two biggest teams in Krakow are rivals. The first team refers to the others' supporters as dogs. The second team refers to the others' supporters as jews. These people don't understand what they are saying - it is a misunderstanding."
Martinus, as these people are your countrymen, can you provide any insight for us?
Welcome to Poland.
Incidentally, there is only one insult these people see to be worse than "Jew". Wanna wager what it is?
Polack?
Quote from: Malthus on March 23, 2011, 03:37:55 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 23, 2011, 02:44:32 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 05:48:11 AM
Livorno and Lazio are probably the two more heavily politized football teams in Italy, to the extreme left and right respectively.
So it's extreme politics for entertainment? Pretending to be a communist might be sorta fun.
Wut? Where do you get the entertainment angle from?
The issue is - is this some sort of sincere expression of actual political views, or is it akin to the singer Maddona's use of religious imagry?
It is sincere. The city of Livorno is a bastion of communism in Italy (it's where the Italian Communist Party was founded), and Lazio has a long standing association with post-fascist movements.
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Wut? Where do you get the entertainment angle from?
I thought it was some sort of campy football fan thing. These guys really do express their desire for a Fascist state through which team they choose to root for?
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 03:43:46 PM
It is sincere. The city of Livorno is a bastion of communism in Italy (it's where the Italian Communist Party was founded), and Lazio has a long standing association with post-fascist movements.
Ok that is just disturbing.
Quote from: Valmy on March 23, 2011, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Wut? Where do you get the entertainment angle from?
I thought it was some sort of campy football fan thing. These guys really do express their desire for a Fascist state through which team they choose to root for?
We're talking ultras here, hooligans, not the regular fans. People who live and die for that shit.
And remember that in Italy both Communists and Fascists are mainstream.
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 03:53:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 23, 2011, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Wut? Where do you get the entertainment angle from?
I thought it was some sort of campy football fan thing. These guys really do express their desire for a Fascist state through which team they choose to root for?
We're talking ultras here, hooligans, not the regular fans. People who live and die for that shit.
Hardcore NFL fans just get plastered at the game & pick on someone wearing the other team's jersey. Politics never enter into it, so I'm with Valmy-- mixing extremist politics & sports seems bizarre.
Quote from: derspiess on March 23, 2011, 04:00:35 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 03:53:21 PM
Quote from: Valmy on March 23, 2011, 03:44:04 PM
Quote from: The Larch on March 23, 2011, 03:32:55 PM
Wut? Where do you get the entertainment angle from?
I thought it was some sort of campy football fan thing. These guys really do express their desire for a Fascist state through which team they choose to root for?
We're talking ultras here, hooligans, not the regular fans. People who live and die for that shit.
Hardcore NFL fans just get plastered at the game & pick on someone wearing the other team's jersey. Politics never enter into it, so I'm with Valmy-- mixing extremist politics & sports seems bizarre.
You've got wars and gang violence to occupy the parts of your population with a violent streak. We need some sort of safety valve, and football is basically it.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.swissinfo.ch%2Fmedia%2Fcms%2Fimages%2Fkeystone%2F2008%2F04%2Fkeyimg20080409_8953549_0.jpg&hash=6e7131e78daaa713259bde8b060b37619a75be4a)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimg%2F0%2C1020%2C553662%2C00.jpg&hash=b01da499973ce176333b0a888b5a9aaf465689cb)
(https://www.nomas-nyc.com/uploaded_images/LazioLivorno-774349.jpg)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft3.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcQkkhdnXxhplgKfdLf6Q_N2ZRtbfwzMTdzS0wiC1XmIxbEaHtG1%26amp%3Bt%3D1&hash=8353a2cb6c13e219a7bcd4c00eef51233d386bf1)
That reads "Auschwitz is your nation, the ovens are your houses"
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcultureofsoccer.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2007%2F05%2Flazio_fans_arkan_banner.jpg&hash=f67d79f46019783c8b20bc16e3f316ec49833b25)
That reads "Honour for The Tiger Arkan" (a Serbian war criminal)
Those are all scenes from Lazio matches. Those guys mean their crap.
:lol:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_1-vUITM8vmM%2FTG6VdVqjV9I%2FAAAAAAAAB3k%2F03792QTqT24%2Fs1600%2Flivorno_cccp_ansa_.jpg&hash=b9f83ea092900957d9c12806cb4823d626b5f317)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fspb.fotologs.net%2Fphoto%2F59%2F19%2F101%2Farmada1943%2F1136289406_f.jpg&hash=56e7322bd13b9de80cd6db81edd61cb8d57f8905)
That reads "Happy birthday Stalin"
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ft0.gstatic.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3AANd9GcS6fZaveNCAuo6dP_k6PMc5Ls859i_jdpbDqG89KouFAz4pDrX5%26amp%3Bt%3D1&hash=ccdaed4138e1f643e7668dd5f121234c1429802a)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ilfazioso.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F09%2Ftifosi-livorno.jpg&hash=13e5e8de96a7296c7037e2ab93ab8e0b1583c9f3)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stefanoseveri.net%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F02%2Flivorno.jpg&hash=d0fcb856601d052c77e16efda0d3c66a5752b2a1)
That reads "Tito taught us, the foiba is not a crime". The foibe massacres happened in Istria between '43 and '49, when Yugoslav partisans targeted Italians in the area.
Those are all from Livorno matches.
Ah. So not so much communists as red fascists then.
Doesn't seem too political to me. Just 'LOL, this is offensive hence it is cool'.
Quote from: Tyr on March 23, 2011, 04:29:40 PM
Ah. So not so much communists as red fascists then.
:huh:
Are there any other kinds?
Looks like I'll need to look up a Lazio match on Fox Soccer Channel. Maybe they'll set the stadium on fire.
Quote from: Slargos on March 23, 2011, 04:30:30 PM
Quote from: Tyr on March 23, 2011, 04:29:40 PM
Ah. So not so much communists as red fascists then.
:huh:
Are there any other kinds?
In these post-Stalin days its rare communists have much good to say about the man.
They're generally naiive idiots, not evil 'lol, wasnt it funny when the Ukrainians starved?' types.
Quote from: Tyr on March 23, 2011, 04:29:40 PM
Ah. So not so much communists as red fascists then.
Doesn't seem too political to me. Just 'LOL, this is offensive hence it is cool'.
:D
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 23, 2011, 04:31:53 PM
Looks like I'll need to look up a Lazio match on Fox Soccer Channel. Maybe they'll set the stadium on fire.
Try to watch the Lazio - Roma derby, that's when they pump it up to 11.
Edit: Woops, it seems they already played the game a couple of weeks ago. You'll have to wait until next season for another one.
It isn't soccer until 50 fans die in the stands.