QuoteThe 'blue national soil' of China's navy
By George F. Will, Friday, March 18, 8:02 PM
NEWPORT, R.I.
When some Chinese naval officers crossed the Pacific to visit the Naval War College here on an Atlantic-lapped island, they gazed reverently at a desk used by Capt. Alfred Thayer Mahan (1840-1914). This compliment to America's preeminent naval strategist has scholars here wondering whether Mahan's Chinese readers are taking from him lessons similar to those Theodore Roosevelt derived.
How could they not? Mahan did not make TR bellicose; nature did that, immoderately. But Mahan supplied a theory for Roosevelt's metabolic urge to throw around his nation's rapidly growing weight.
Mahan and Roosevelt met in 1887, when Mahan was president of the college and the future president — an amateur naval historian and general know-it-all — was a guest lecturer in his late 20s. From Mahan's 1890 book, "The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783," Roosevelt learned that a powerful navy is indispensable to a nation with great commercial interests and an interest in geopolitical greatness.
China certainly has the former. Does it have the latter?
China may not forever be a "Blanche DuBois nation," akin to the woman in "A Streetcar Named Desire" who said, "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers." Today, Americans are the strangers. Their Navy — "today's naval hegemon," in Chinese parlance — is the constabulary that patrols what Mahan called "the great common" — the ocean highways of the trade on which China's growth, and hence its stability and geopolitical weight, depends.
America's cheerful assumption has been that although its ships are not as numerous as they recently were — 286 now, down from 594 in 1987 — there actually is a 1,000-ship Navy. That comforting figure aggregates all the navies of nations that have no agendas beyond keeping the great common orderly.
China is deploying new submarines at an impressive rate — three a year. They are suited to pushing back U.S. power projection in the Western Pacific. China's much-discussed ballistic and cruise missiles also seem designed to keep U.S. surface forces far from China's soil. And China seems increasingly inclined to define the oceans off its shores as extensions of the shores — territory to be owned and controlled like "blue national soil." This concept is incompatible with the idea of the oceans as a "common."
This includes the "near seas" — the Yellow, South China and East China seas. But such "far seas" as the Indian Ocean also are crucial to China's global commercial reach as a hyperactive importer and exporter. Disciples of Mahan want a national capacity to protect their nation's interests there.
In "Red Star Over the Pacific: China's Rise and the Challenge to U.S. Maritime Strategy," Toshi Yoshihara and James R. Holmes, both on the War College faculty, remind readers that Mahan defined "command of the sea" as "overbearing power on the sea." And that, he said, means power "which drives the enemy's flag from it, or allows it to appear only as a fugitive; and which, by controlling the great common, closes the highways by which commerce moves to and fro from the enemy's shores."
When Mao reigned, say Yoshihara and Holmes, Mahan was "reviled" as "an apostle of imperialism and colonialism." Now, they report, at major international conferences Chinese analysts have cited Mahan's bellicose definition of command of the sea to emphasize "the value of sea power for China."
Even with its reduced numbers, the U.S. Navy may have such command — as long as no rival power covets command. But Mahan's writings, say Yoshihara and Holmes, encourage "zero-sum thinking." In the Social Darwinian spirit of his day, Mahan wrote: "Growth is a property of healthful life" and implies a "right to insure by just means whatsoever contributes to national progress, and correlatively to combat injurious action taken by an outside agency, if the latter overpass its own lawful sphere." Concerning China's thinking about lawful spheres, see above: "blue national soil."
Extraordinarily dependent on sea lanes because of what one Chinese intellectual calls its "outward-leaning economy," and now largely free from land threats, China has the opportunity and incentive to project power beyond the Asian continent. In Mahan, it has an excuse.
In his Navy career, Mahan seemed to heed Gilbert and Sullivan's advice in the 1878 operetta "H.M.S. Pinafore": "Stick close to your desks and never go to sea/ And you all may be rulers of the Queen's Navee!" Ships Mahan commanded tended to collide with ships and other things. Ashore, however, he was a force to be reckoned with. It seems he still may be.
For he is an Engrishman! :cool:
At first, I thought Timmay did this thread. Then I got the joke. :blush:
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 21, 2011, 07:06:59 AM
At first, I thought Timmay did this thread. Then I got the joke. :blush:
:lol:
Hmmm.... :hmm:
Ro ho, ro ho, a pilate's rife for me? :)
Should have gone for "Ooooooooooooooooh, ching chong ding dong." It's all the rage among racists on the internets these days. :P
Quote from: Caliga on March 21, 2011, 07:16:26 AM
Hmmm.... :hmm:
Ro ho, ro ho, a pilate's rife for me? :)
The Chinese threat is obviously not serious yet. Once it is, people like you will be able to tell the difference between a stereotypically-horrible Japanese accent and a stereotypically bad Chinese one.
I don't feel threatened by the Chinese. :hug:
Quote from: Jacob on March 21, 2011, 03:29:45 PM
Quote from: Caliga on March 21, 2011, 07:16:26 AM
Hmmm.... :hmm:
Ro ho, ro ho, a pilate's rife for me? :)
The Chinese threat is obviously not serious yet. Once it is, people like you will be able to tell the difference between a stereotypically-horrible Japanese accent and a stereotypically bad Chinese one.
Just because you married a slant-eye doesn't mean you have to passive-aggressively defend all gooks at all times, ya race traitor. :P
China lacks the mentality to be an aggressive, expanding imperialist power that contends with the west for struggle of the world. They grow and expand now, but it is only in an economic sense. They are just not martial people.
If it ever is needful, they can be crushed.
Quote from: Lettow77 on March 21, 2011, 05:36:21 PM
They are just not martial people.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_rFs0uVY_4rE%2FTPytf4NPEeI%2FAAAAAAAAJAA%2FfSx93L6vYoA%2Fs1600%2FKorean-map-First%252BPhase%252BChinese-offensive.jpg&hash=1f463f5d6e9514addce06c98ec0e59dd7ca7eff8)
:hmm:
Doesn't count! Limited war on their own border. Anyone can send the conscripts forward. The U.S Marines there on the other hand demonstrated just what a martial people are capable of :3
Professor Stonewall Jackoff (PHD in Squee) wrote the book A Confederate in Chinaman land.
If the Chinese are so impressed with Mahan, why are they building so many Subs?
Quote from: Caliga on March 21, 2011, 04:39:28 PM
I don't feel threatened by the Chinese. :hug:
You should. They're threatened by you.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 21, 2011, 05:50:52 PM
Professor Stonewall Jackoff (PHD in Squee) wrote the book A Confederate in Chinaman land.
Nathan Bedford Fong's People's Cavalry in action. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoyborTbZVA)
Quote from: Razgovory on March 21, 2011, 06:05:40 PM
If the Chinese are so impressed with Mahan, why are they building so many Subs?
SSGs and boomers can do a lot more damage these days than a dreadnought.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 21, 2011, 08:18:04 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 21, 2011, 05:50:52 PM
Professor Stonewall Jackoff (PHD in Squee) wrote the book A Confederate in Chinaman land.
Nathan Bedford Fong's People's Cavalry in action. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoyborTbZVA)
I see you PLA horses, and raise you with PLA babes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFkZHs_b7i4&feature=related
Quote from: Tonitrus on March 21, 2011, 08:22:32 PM
I see you PLA horses, and raise you with PLA babes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFkZHs_b7i4&feature=related
I just jizzed in glorious revolutionary spirit.
Quote from: Caliga on March 21, 2011, 06:44:31 AM
For he is an Engrishman! :cool:
I don't quite get the Engrish jokes, really. A lot of Chinese have real trouble pronouncing "r" sounds. What usually happens is they do the reverse - pronouncing "very" as "vely". This is particularly bad for Cantonese, because there is no "r" in the Cantonese dialect. There are plenty of "l" sounds, though.
Quote from: Slargos on March 21, 2011, 04:41:52 PMJust because you married a slant-eye doesn't mean you have to passive-aggressively defend all gooks at all times, ya race traitor. :P
1. I have whatever rights I reserve for myself, and employ them as I wish in whatever combination of passive and/or aggressive that pleases me.
2. There was no defending of anybody involved in my post at all.
3. The purpose of my post was primarily to point out to Caliga that he was being an ignorant twat.
Quote from: Monoriu on March 21, 2011, 09:53:00 PMI don't quite get the Engrish jokes, really. A lot of Chinese have real trouble pronouncing "r" sounds. What usually happens is they do the reverse - pronouncing "very" as "vely". This is particularly bad for Cantonese, because there is no "r" in the Cantonese dialect. There are plenty of "l" sounds, though.
As you're probably aware, the Japanese tend to confuse L and R when speaking English. It's simply that people are applying 80s Japanese stereotype humour to the Chinese today because they can't really tell the difference.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 21, 2011, 08:26:41 PMI just jizzed in glorious revolutionary spirit.
My favourite was a cop I saw about a year ago, slightly less in the hotness factor I think (the pictures were pretty grainy anyhow) but I think you'd approve.
Some jackass had taken someone hostage at a bank-machine. He had a gun to the victim and was yelling whatever his demands were, keeping the police at bay.
This woman, a cop but dressed like some average office worker in a sensible yet tight skirt, pumps and a nice blouse, makes like a regular pedestrian for a bit, then walks up to the perp, pulls out her handgun and shoots him dead from right up close.
That's her job; police assassin, no muss no fuss, just another day at the office.
When I saw that I thought I might have found your dream date. Sadly I didn't know how to get her number for you.
Quote from: Jacob on March 22, 2011, 12:57:34 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 21, 2011, 09:53:00 PMI don't quite get the Engrish jokes, really. A lot of Chinese have real trouble pronouncing "r" sounds. What usually happens is they do the reverse - pronouncing "very" as "vely". This is particularly bad for Cantonese, because there is no "r" in the Cantonese dialect. There are plenty of "l" sounds, though.
As you're probably aware, the Japanese tend to confuse L and R when speaking English. It's simply that people are applying 80s Japanese stereotype humour to the Chinese today because they can't really tell the difference.
Yes, where English has both the l and r sounds Japanese only has the sound intermediate between the two. They can learn to say both sounds but may still have problems actually hearing the difference. I found that saying l and thinking r got my pronounciation of the Japanese sound roughly correct. Meanwhile Russian apparently uses all 3 of these sounds :hmm:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 22, 2011, 02:41:59 AM
Quote from: Jacob on March 22, 2011, 12:57:34 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 21, 2011, 09:53:00 PMI don't quite get the Engrish jokes, really. A lot of Chinese have real trouble pronouncing "r" sounds. What usually happens is they do the reverse - pronouncing "very" as "vely". This is particularly bad for Cantonese, because there is no "r" in the Cantonese dialect. There are plenty of "l" sounds, though.
As you're probably aware, the Japanese tend to confuse L and R when speaking English. It's simply that people are applying 80s Japanese stereotype humour to the Chinese today because they can't really tell the difference.
Yes, where English has both the l and r sounds Japanese only has the sound intermediate between the two. They can learn to say both sounds but may still have problems actually hearing the difference. I found that saying l and thinking r got my pronounciation of the Japanese sound roughly correct. Meanwhile Russian apparently uses all 3 of these sounds :hmm:
L and R just sound completely opposite to me.
Koreans don't seem to have that much trouble with R, but they absolutely butcher V and Z. Thankfully those letters are a lot less common.
This reminds me of one of my high school teachers. She was 100% Chinese, but generally spoke almost perfect English.
Except when it comes to the "R" sounds. She just couldn't do it. Once, she kept saying "lula" to us, and the whole class was confused.
She actually meant ruler.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 22, 2011, 03:02:39 AM
L and R just sound completely opposite to me.
Take note of the position of your mouth and tongue while pronouncing both. They're very close.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 22, 2011, 07:05:16 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 22, 2011, 03:02:39 AM
L and R just sound completely opposite to me.
Take note of the position of your mouth and tongue while pronouncing both. They're very close.
No they don't. :blink:
Maybe it's my New England accent but, the L sound comes from the front of the mouth as the front of the tongue moves up and forward. R comes from the back of the mouth as the back of the tongue moves up and the front moves down.
As Tim says. L comes very much from the front whilst R is like a growl, very from the back of the throat. Though I can't detect much tongue movement with R.
L&R being mixed up- I have far more often seen that as a stereotype of Japanese than Chinese. I've only ever encountered it with Japanese too.
However in the old TV series Mind Your Language it was the Chinese character (a crazy Maoist) who always got them mixed up whilst the Japanese guy just stuck to adding o and u to the end of sentances. Wonder if this means it used to be more a Chinese stereotype or they just decided to share out equally the oriental mistakes.
Quote from: Jacob on March 22, 2011, 12:53:07 AM
3. The purpose of my post was primarily to point out to Caliga that he was being an ignorant twat.
As the board's resident gauche motherfucker, I thought it was my job to be an ignorant twat. :)
No but seriously, while I've known many Chinese-Americans, the only actual Chinese immigrant I regularly interact with is the owner of the Chinese restaurant in town. I don't reall noticing her screwing up her 'r' and 'l' sounds, but she has this way of speaking English but making it sound like it's not English.
Example: English - Thank you, have a good night.
Her broken English - Tank-yu haa gu-naa.
The US Navy will soon have a new Laser gun!!! :cool:
No scribes allowed..... :ph34r:
Just had a 1st year class. Was reminded of their annoying habit of tacking ee on to the end of words.
Enlishee
Finishee
Orangee
:bleeding:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 22, 2011, 03:02:39 AM
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 22, 2011, 02:41:59 AM
Quote from: Jacob on March 22, 2011, 12:57:34 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on March 21, 2011, 09:53:00 PMI don't quite get the Engrish jokes, really. A lot of Chinese have real trouble pronouncing "r" sounds. What usually happens is they do the reverse - pronouncing "very" as "vely". This is particularly bad for Cantonese, because there is no "r" in the Cantonese dialect. There are plenty of "l" sounds, though.
As you're probably aware, the Japanese tend to confuse L and R when speaking English. It's simply that people are applying 80s Japanese stereotype humour to the Chinese today because they can't really tell the difference.
Yes, where English has both the l and r sounds Japanese only has the sound intermediate between the two. They can learn to say both sounds but may still have problems actually hearing the difference. I found that saying l and thinking r got my pronounciation of the Japanese sound roughly correct. Meanwhile Russian apparently uses all 3 of these sounds :hmm:
L and R just sound completely opposite to me.
Koreans don't seem to have that much trouble with R, but they absolutely butcher V and Z. Thankfully those letters are a lot less common.
My favorite is when they try to pronounce "beach".
"Teacher, this summer I went to bitch!"
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 22, 2011, 07:41:23 PM
Just had a 1st year class. Was reminded of their annoying habit of tacking ee on to the end of words.
Enlishee
Finishee
Orangee
:bleeding:
It's your job to fix it :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on March 22, 2011, 08:33:22 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 22, 2011, 07:41:23 PM
Just had a 1st year class. Was reminded of their annoying habit of tacking ee on to the end of words.
Enlishee
Finishee
Orangee
:bleeding:
It's your job to fix it :contract:
Don't worry, I am! :menace:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 22, 2011, 07:31:38 AM
No they don't. :blink:
Maybe it's my New England accent but, the L sound comes from the front of the mouth as the front of the tongue moves up and forward. R comes from the back of the mouth as the back of the tongue moves and up and the front down.
The American R comes from the throat, and is almost impossible for non Native speakers (maybe not for Teutons and Nords). Pronounce a Latin R and you'll see it's in the front of the mouth and very close in shape to the L.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on March 22, 2011, 08:18:03 PMMy favorite is when they try to pronounce "beach".
"Teacher, this summer I went to bitch!"
Are you sure they're not Portuguese? Did they get rubbed?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 23, 2011, 07:04:35 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 22, 2011, 07:31:38 AM
No they don't. :blink:
Maybe it's my New England accent but, the L sound comes from the front of the mouth as the front of the tongue moves up and forward. R comes from the back of the mouth as the back of the tongue moves and up and the front down.
The American R comes from the throat, and is almost impossible for non Native speakers (maybe not for Teutons and Nords). Pronounce a Latin R and you'll see it's in the front of the mouth and very close in shape to the L.
Well, I'm teaching them English, not Spanish so even if that's true I don't see what the Latin R has to do with anything.
Is the American R any different from the British R? Tyr says not, but then he uses a ghastly accent so I don't know if his input is valid.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 23, 2011, 08:33:36 AM
Well, I'm teaching them English, not Spanish so even if that's true I don't see what the Latin R has to do with anything.
Is the American R any different from the British R? Tyr says not, but then he uses a ghastly accent so I don't know if his input is valid.
In most of the England speakers have a non-rhotic R, while in most of the United States we tend to use a rhotic R (Boston and New Yawk being the obvious exceptions.) Here's a Wikipedia article with an explanation of the differences and some maps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotic_and_non-rhotic_accents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotic_and_non-rhotic_accents)
Quote from: Savonarola on March 23, 2011, 11:43:09 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 23, 2011, 08:33:36 AM
Well, I'm teaching them English, not Spanish so even if that's true I don't see what the Latin R has to do with anything.
Is the American R any different from the British R? Tyr says not, but then he uses a ghastly accent so I don't know if his input is valid.
In most of the England speakers have a non-rhotic R, while in most of the United States we tend to use a rhotic R (Boston and New Yawk being the obvious exceptions.) Here's a Wikipedia article with an explanation of the differences and some maps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotic_and_non-rhotic_accents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotic_and_non-rhotic_accents)
Where we say an R varies, but when we say it, it sounds the same.
Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2011, 07:43:52 AMAs the board's resident gauche motherfucker, I thought it was my job to be an ignorant twat. :)
Job well done :cheers:
QuoteNo but seriously, while I've known many Chinese-Americans, the only actual Chinese immigrant I regularly interact with is the owner of the Chinese restaurant in town. I don't reall noticing her screwing up her 'r' and 'l' sounds, but she has this way of speaking English but making it sound like it's not English.
Example: English - Thank you, have a good night.
Her broken English - Tank-yu haa gu-naa.
Oh yeah - lots of ways for Chinese to have heavy, hard to understand accents. Seems like consonant endings are a big one, as you identify.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 23, 2011, 05:25:31 PM
Where we say an R varies, but when we say it, it sounds the same.
:blink: WTF are you smoking, Tim? Being native speakers, we don't notice the differences in pronunciation as much, but they're there. Several of my friends and I used to make fun of a friend from Brooklyn for "not being able" to say "party" by asking her why she kept talking about the bathroom.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on March 23, 2011, 05:55:27 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 23, 2011, 05:25:31 PM
Where we say an R varies, but when we say it, it sounds the same.
:blink: WTF are you smoking, Tim? Being native speakers, we don't notice the differences in pronunciation as much, but they're there. Several of my friends and I used to make fun of a friend from Brooklyn for "not being able" to say "party" by asking her why she kept talking about the bathroom.
She's not pronouncing the R there.
As I said, when we say an R varies, but when we say it, it sounds the same. If she says a word where she does pronounce the R, it will sound the same as any other American. It will come from the back of the throat.
Tim, you are ignorant and wrong.
Ching chong, bing bong. Me love you long time GI joe! 2 dolla!
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 23, 2011, 08:33:36 AM
Well, I'm teaching them English, not Spanish so even if that's true I don't see what the Latin R has to do with anything.
:frusty:
Asians don't confuse L with the American R because the American R is an alien sound to them. They confuse L with their own R, which is pronounced in the front of the mouth.
Quote from: Jacob on March 23, 2011, 06:20:02 PM
Tim, you are ignorant and wrong.
Could you be more specific?
I have lots of friends from all parts of the country and while vowel pronunciation and cadence varies quite a bit from region to region, the R sounds the same when spoken.
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 23, 2011, 06:29:18 PM
Ching chong, bing bong. Me love you long time GI joe! 2 dolla!
:hug: I no boom boom with soul brother!
Quote from: Caliga on March 23, 2011, 06:49:25 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 23, 2011, 06:29:18 PM
Ching chong, bing bong. Me love you long time GI joe! 2 dolla!
:hug: I no boom boom with soul brother!
:)
Quote from: Caliga on March 22, 2011, 07:43:52 AM
Her broken English - Tank-yu haa gu-naa.
:lol: That's every Chinese restaurant owner.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 23, 2011, 06:31:42 PM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 23, 2011, 08:33:36 AM
Well, I'm teaching them English, not Spanish so even if that's true I don't see what the Latin R has to do with anything.
:frusty:
Asians don't confuse L with the American R because the American R is an alien sound to them. They confuse L with their own R, which is pronounced in the front of the mouth.
So their "R" is not the same as our R. Wouldn't that mean that our R is an alien sound to them?