Figured its better to open a new one for this.
Here is the current list of players:
Habbaku - Brandenburg
Kleves - Ottoman Empire
Solmyr - Castile
DGuller - Venice
Alci - France
Tamas - Austria
Katmai - Sweden
sbr - England
Tamas' friend - Khorasan
Solmyr's Friend - Muscovy
No Portugal, eh.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 23, 2010, 08:53:36 AM
No Portugal, eh.
ooops, indeed, that is a problem. :hmm:
No it isn't.
I'm clearly Portugal.
Of course, if your friend would rather play Portugal instead of Khorasan, I wouldn't complain.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2010, 10:24:14 AM
Of course, if your friend would rather play Portugal instead of Khorasan, I wouldn't complain.
Nah, I think he is rather happy with Khorasan. Of course, he can speak for himself once Neil reads my PM.
Quote from: Tamas on April 23, 2010, 10:29:16 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2010, 10:24:14 AM
Of course, if your friend would rather play Portugal instead of Khorasan, I wouldn't complain.
Nah, I think he is rather happy with Khorasan. Of course, he can speak for himself once Neil reads my PM.
Has he actually tried to post something? My friend registered later and by the time his name showed up as newest registered user he was approved.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2010, 10:23:40 AM
No it isn't.
I agree. I don't think Portugal adds that much to a game and I am curious how things work out with so many interests in C Europe and W Asia.
Quote from: sbr on April 23, 2010, 10:33:03 AM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2010, 10:23:40 AM
No it isn't.
I agree. I don't think Portugal adds that much to a game and I am curious how things work out with so many interests in C Europe and W Asia.
I think they
could add much, but it would require a very active player who wasn't afraid to step on some toes in the process rather than just quietly play the colonial game for what they could get.
Besides, if anyone is actually worried about leaving Spain to take Portugal, it's very simple to prevent it--guarantee Portugal's independence or ally with them. The Eggplants rarely get into wars and forcing Spain to adhere to a guarantee of their independence will assure there's at least some colonial competition early on.
Aside from that...France, England, Venice and Sweden (if they go colonial), should also not be afraid to grab chunks of South America. There is nothing in this game that says that all somehow magically "belongs" to Spain, the same as NA doesn't "belong" to France and Britain. This, of course, goes along with my policy that people need to stop acting like they're all best-friends in the game.
Possible house-rule solutions to the problem of alliances set in stone + too many world wars (though I don't think we'll need them, and they may be bad solutions even if we do):
1. Limit the number of provinces that can be taken in a player-player war. Start at 1, and go up by 1 every 50 years.
2. Limit the number of players that can be allied to eachother.
3. No cross-religion alliances.
oh wait, have you guys actually played a 1453 game with an AI Portugal? :lol:
The AI will colony-rush North America with them like it was nobody's business, in MP terms giving a LOT of free colonies to England or France in a matter of decade or two.
Quote from: Kleves on April 23, 2010, 10:45:19 AM
Possible house-rule solutions to the problem of alliances set in stone + too many world wars (though I don't think we'll need them, and they may be bad solutions even if we do):
1. Limit the number of provinces that can be taken in a player-player war. Start at 1, and go up by 1 every 50 years.
2. Limit the number of players that can be allied to eachother.
3. No cross-religion alliances.
fuck no
Number 3 kinda limits the mooselimbs and leaves Russia in the lurch.
All that's really needed is people not being afraid to break alliances when it's in their interest. Think of this as a more complex game of Diplomacy.
Quote from: Kleves on April 23, 2010, 10:45:19 AM
Possible house-rule solutions to the problem of alliances set in stone + too many world wars (though I don't think we'll need them, and they may be bad solutions even if we do):
I'm not opposed to house rules, in general, but yours are...odd.
Quote1. Limit the number of provinces that can be taken in a player-player war. Start at 1, and go up by 1 every 50 years.
Way too few. The number should start at 2, at the minimum, and I'm not sure there even should be a limit. I highly doubt we'll see all that many huge wars for the first 100 years anyway. It also doesn't solve the issue of someone fighting for their cores--they shouldn't be limited in trying to wrest those from another player.
Quote2. Limit the number of players that can be allied to eachother.
This is the better idea, and one I'm not opposed to. I think there should be a 3-power alliance limit (IE, France can be allied to the Ottomans and England, but not someone else on top of that).
Quote3. No cross-religion alliances.
Only affects you, Muscovy and Khorasan at the outset and also flies in the face of history for when the Protestant Reformation starts up. Protestants allied with Catholics and so on at multiple points.
Quote from: Tamas on April 23, 2010, 10:48:09 AM
oh wait, have you guys actually played a 1453 game with an AI Portugal? :lol:
The AI will colony-rush North America with them like it was nobody's business, in MP terms giving a LOT of free colonies to England or France in a matter of decade or two.
This mainly happens because the Azores are closer to NA than to anything else, so the colonial range goes there first. Someone (coughcastilecough) should just take the Azores from Portugal and they'll be nicely channeled more to the south.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 23, 2010, 10:49:47 AM
Number 3 kinda limits the mooselimbs and leaves Russia in the lurch.
All that's really needed is people not being afraid to break alliances when it's in their interest. Think of this as a more complex game of Diplomacy.
Yeah the only house rule which should be is that we dont throw hissy Slargosian fits over changing alliances.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 23, 2010, 10:49:47 AM
All that's really needed is people not being afraid to break alliances when it's in their interest. Think of this as a more complex game of Diplomacy.
Right. What will change things for the better is a shift in attitude towards something more cutthroat rather than friendly for each player involved as opposed to a series of house rules. Simple things, really--don't get involved in a war that doesn't benefit you in any way "just because" your 'ally' is waging an offensive war. Don't sell your provinces to help people launch into new colonial territories--keep them to yourself as long as possible. Don't sell an East Asian Trade Port to let someone form their East India Company...Etc.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 23, 2010, 10:51:55 AM
Quote from: Tamas on April 23, 2010, 10:48:09 AM
oh wait, have you guys actually played a 1453 game with an AI Portugal? :lol:
The AI will colony-rush North America with them like it was nobody's business, in MP terms giving a LOT of free colonies to England or France in a matter of decade or two.
This mainly happens because the Azores are closer to NA than to anything else, so the colonial range goes there first. Someone (coughcastilecough) should just take the Azores from Portugal and they'll be nicely channeled more to the south.
Right that will work out, handling the Spanish pwnage of Portugal as a favor done to the other players... :hmm:
We could use a Portugal I say.
I could just guarantee Portugal myself and laugh as they take all the prime Yank areas. Hey, AI Portugal loves allying with Castile anyway. :P
I think you guys should try a AIPortgual game. Could be fun to see the AI fuck with all your colonizations effort.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 23, 2010, 11:12:16 AM
I think you guys should try a AIPortgual game. Could be fun to see the AI fuck with all your colonizations effort.
More likely is that, unprotected, Castile will just annex them.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2010, 11:17:30 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 23, 2010, 11:12:16 AM
I think you guys should try a AIPortgual game. Could be fun to see the AI fuck with all your colonizations effort.
More likely is that, unprotected, Castile will just annex them.
This
I think the problem, from what I have seen so far, with EU3 MP is this:
1. Player A wants to go to war with Player B.
2. But if he does, and Player C comes in on the side of B, player A is screwed.
3. So most of the time, the war never happens - too risky.
4. If player A goes to Player C, chances are player C will maybe agree to join in with Player A to go after B. If not - go to step 3.
5. So now we have A&C against B. B gets their ass kicked.
6. B knows this is possible, so he enlists D to counter C.
7. Goto step 5/6, repeat.
8. Lots of alliances, war is now a huge affair. How about we beat up on the AI some more instead?
9. No war.
10. If in fact we get over this, and do get a war (maybe because B is so much a threat that everyone else gangs up on them), then the war ends up being a HUGE war.
And the results will be huge as well, especially if you are looking to bring down a leader. See the anti-HRE and anti-Ottoman wars. You can't limit those to "only taking 4 provinces" since that does not do enough to solve the reason the war was started to begin with. Limiting province gains just benefits those who are best positioned to grab lots of provinces from the AI nations.
So rather than having lots of smaller wars, you end up with very few wars, but really big ones - and often not very interesting either, since the outcome is often pre-determined. All the "game-play" is in the run up to war, not the war itself. The war is the climax of the interplay, not the content.
Not sure what to do about that though. "Even" wars are risky - from a gameplay perspective, it is kind of foolish to go into a risky war, so why do it?
I nominate France as the guarantor of Portuguese freedom.
"Even" wars are only risky insofar as the player might lose a bit of territory--which, at the end of the day, is not the end of the world, or even necessarily a terrible outcome. No one wants to lose even a single province (see : Slargos) and, so, they fight to the very end in a series of total wars wherein the outcome has to be the utter destruction of their country or all of their enemies'--the antithesis of this time period, save for the Napoleonic Wars and maybe the 30 Years War.
There are two major problems, as I see it. The first is that people are too willing to fight for their "friends" to expand and thus get involved in a war that really has nothing to do with them whatsoever. Why spend money in a war if which you will not gain?
The second is that, as other players start to expand, it seems as if everyone is falling asleep and ignoring the incredible expansion being done by the others, rationalizing to themselves that they can just "stop it later when they have others on board" rather than take steps to stop it before it even becomes a problem. See : the HRE, the expansion of the Ottomans and the expansion of Spain in our Wednesday night game.
The game has mechanics in place to stop this--Proclaim Guarantee, alliances with minor powers, Send Warning against other majors, etc. No one uses them, though or, worse, they think that the players adjacent to them are their "friends" and so they ignore the other guy's expansion.
I think it is more a matter of "Why do I care about my neighbor expanding, when I am doing the exact same thing?"
Why fight over provinces ABC with my neighbor, when I can just take DEF myself, or take them from a AI minor?
It's not like the expansion of Spain happened in some kind of vacuum - everyone else was snatching up provinces left and right as well. Nobody is falling asleep - they are too busy trying to do the same thing themselves. Hell, *I* was the one who kicked off the race for India, and ended up getting more than I expected to, to be completely honest. I though someone other than just me and Spain would be involved though.
In fact, to be completely honest, I went when I did because I thought my main competitor for India would be the Ottomans, who were much closer, and more powerful than both Spain and England.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2010, 12:30:00 PM
"Even" wars are only risky insofar as the player might lose a bit of territory--which, at the end of the day, is not the end of the world, or even necessarily a terrible outcome.
This is a key, I think. Losing a war should not be any big deal, so that taking the risk is actually worth it.
I am not sure that is the case though - in fact, my suspicion is that it is the opposite - 'small' wars between A and B probably help player C more than it helps either A or B, no matter which of them wins. Since the best way to expand is almost certainly grabbing unclaimed (by a player anyway) territory.
I do agree that fundamentally a big part of the problem is that the players just don't play it as enough of a wargame, and more of a parallel SP game with some conflict thrown in now and again.
The problem is that I suspect that is actually the "smart" way to play. Kind of a prisoners dilemna sort of thing.
The trouble with playing it the "smart" way, though, is it will inevitably end the same way every time--players will expand to certain regions where they are seemingly "destined" to go to and others will do the same until we get to the point around ~1700 that just about everything is player-owned...and then you end up with a giant stalemate. Far better, I would think, is to prevent the stalemate from coming about by weakening your opponent at a far earlier date. Yes, you might set yourself behind by 10 years in the short term, but in the long-term, it's almost assured that you'd come out ahead of those who are just sitting on the sidelines.
Quote from: Berkut on April 23, 2010, 12:43:07 PM
The problem is that I suspect that is actually the "smart" way to play. Kind of a prisoners dilemna sort of thing.
Probably yes.
What I propose -because I think none of us are jerks to purposedly go all hail mary with countries when a rule as this is in effect- is that we agree to let people change countries if their starting one got pwndered too much. So as to remove the block of "not want to destroy the game for him". Like when in the first game every AI country in Europe tried to gangrape me, Kleves of England did not join in on the fun, which was certainly very nice of him, and he made a side profit on helping me, but still the sensible thing as England would had been to decide that huge war by stabbing the dagger deep into France's back so as the whole country gets partitioned.
I don't think we ever had a rule against people changing countries. Kleves did it, after all.
Castile wishes to formally announce that it has no plans to annex Portugal proper as long as there is no aggression against us from that direction.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 23, 2010, 01:13:06 PM
Castile wishes to formally announce that it has no plans to annex Portugal proper as long as there is no aggression against us from that direction.
Translation : Castile will wait for Portugal to ally with Aragon before going to war with the latter so as to jack territory from the former.
Quote from: Berkut on April 23, 2010, 12:43:07 PM
The problem is that I suspect that is actually the "smart" way to play. Kind of a prisoners dilemna sort of thing.
I'm thinking the same thing. I feel like there is more than one stable equillibrium when it comes to situations like this. One possible equillibrium is that everyone is realpolitiking, and occasionally backstabbing. Another possible equillibrium is that everyone is being a gentleman and a true friend.
In both of those cases, being the only one out of step with majority would be a bad thing. In the first case, you'll be betrayed when you don't expect it. In the second case, you'll be an outcast.
What may be tipping EU MP games into a friendly equillibrium is the fact that we'll play with each other again in the future. If you screw your friend and completely annex him, that reputation will not just haunt you in that same game. People will remember in "parallel universes" as well, the next time you play.
Quote from: DGuller on April 23, 2010, 01:27:45 PM
What may be tipping EU MP games into a friendly equillibrium is the fact that we'll play with each other again in the future. If you screw your friend and completely annex him, that reputation will not just haunt you in that same game. People will remember in "parallel universes" as well, the next time you play.
This is a mentality people just have to get away from. You couldn't have Renaissance politics if everyone held grudges for hundreds of years.
Well the problem with that is some players play the same way every time, so you can expect what they are doing has hidden meanings if they did it in past games. Which is likely the case.
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 23, 2010, 01:38:40 PM
Well the problem with that is some players play the same way every time, so you can expect what they are doing has hidden meanings if they did it in past games. Which is likely the case.
That's their problem. Obviously if you are totally sure someone will betray you then you can take steps to counter it. Personally, I tend to play very differently depending on my country.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 23, 2010, 01:32:22 PM
This is a mentality people just have to get away from. You couldn't have Renaissance politics if everyone held grudges for hundreds of years.
It's not about grudges, it's about rational expectations. Reputation has real value. If two potential rivals ally, and they both have impeccable record of keeping their word, then they can both avoid costly contingency plans for cases when the alliance turns into a sudden sneak attack. If you don't have a good reputation, then you can't reap as many benefits from a strategic alliance.
Fear not Habbu, I won't be selling colonies to anyone(though you didn't complain when the buyer was you) as tamas and I will be busy bitchslapping badboy Brandenburg.
:P
Quote from: katmai on April 23, 2010, 02:13:21 PM
Fear not Habbu, I won't be selling colonies to anyone(though you didn't complain when the buyer was you)
:rolleyes: That was a perfectly legitimate strategic decision on your part, though I think you made an error in not just selling me all of Portugal as well. Ah, well, we can't all be Napoleon.
So sorry for the kleves moment here bit what start year are we going with?
I need to try and take a look at game and figure out who to ally and see if I really have to be sbr's bitch.
Quote from: katmai on April 23, 2010, 02:23:08 PM
So sorry for the kleves moment here bit what start year are we going with?
I need to try and take a look at game and figure out who to ally and see if I really have to be sbr's bitch.
1453 scenario.
Okay what I thought, but started having doubts as I know folks thought 1492 Austria starts with too big an advantage.
Quote from: DGuller on April 23, 2010, 02:03:11 PM
It's not about grudges, it's about rational expectations. Reputation has real value. If two potential rivals ally, and they both have impeccable record of keeping their word, then they can both avoid costly contingency plans for cases when the alliance turns into a sudden sneak attack. If you don't have a good reputation, then you can't reap as many benefits from a strategic alliance.
I wasn't talking about reputation, though, but rather grudge-holding. If someone backstabs you once in one game, it doesn't mean you must hate them forever after through every subsequent game, or that you cannot ally with them later if it benefits you. Obviously, if someone betrays people constantly for little reason, that's different, but I don't think there's anyone like that here.
Ideally, in a game like this, everyone playing would have a reputation of "rational self interest". Basically like Habs plays - he isn't going to stab you for giggles, but on the other hand, you should not really trust him any further than doing so furthers his own interests]/i].
Like he has said before - you should play this like experienced Diplomacy players. It works in Diplomacy because you *can't* win at Diplomacy without being willing to stab. But in EU3, *never* betraying someone is certainly possible - it could even be a smart move, but IMO, it probably makes for a poorer game.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 23, 2010, 03:10:53 PM
I wasn't talking about reputation, though, but rather grudge-holding. If someone backstabs you once in one game, it doesn't mean you must hate them forever after through every subsequent game, or that you cannot ally with them later if it benefits you. Obviously, if someone betrays people constantly for little reason, that's different, but I don't think there's anyone like that here.
I wasn't talking about grudge-holding either when I originally brought up the point. I was just talking about the fact that the reputation that you developed in prior games is going to follow you to the next game. Even if you're the most rational player ever, knowing that someone made a backstab in the prior game is something that you must keep in mind. It doesn't matter if there was a good reason or not for it, it's in your rational interest to take past history into account.
I would never backstab any of you as I love you all :goodboy:
Well maybe berkut as he is a wildcat, and tamas as he is a gypsy, and of course Sol is a Finn.
Not to mention the vile dguller and his Slavic ways.
Habs and his brother are both Southerners. A stab at them is a stab at Lettow.
The problem seems to be that playing "rationally" leads to stalemate. Alliances are a good example; no one wants to fight an "even" war, they will always want to fight a war that they will win. So they get allies. The other player is thinking the same thing, so they get allies. Eventually two evenly-matched blocs form, and we have stalemate.
I also don't think it is realistic to both play "cutthroat" and to allow one-on-one wars. Cutthroat means each war could potentially cripple you. You don't want to fight such a war if you can't win, which leads to the situation described above.
There is too great an incentive for peace, and too little for war. My idea in limiting the number of provinces that can be taken in a war is to reduce the risk of war, and so make it more attractive.
Also, I think we should ban province sales. They make it too easy to resolve exactly the kind of limited-war scenarios that we want to foster.
Austria's advantage in 1492: thats none with the latest patch. If you want to stay HRE emperor you can forget non-core provinces, at least nothing above 2 every 50 years. But 1453 it is.
And we better differentiate between switching alliance and backstabbing. The two are different. Backstabbing is when you say to a country "sure go ahead attack I will guard your back" then deny the alliance call, declare war, and move in. This should not be verboten either.
But a change of alliance is like when Slargos tried to strongarm my France into protecting his ass while he stampeded around in Central Asia showing the finger to every other players, and Habbaku approached me with a very lucrative offer to switch camps. So I did, and I never agreed to help Slargos. Now this should be perfectly fine and no one should get a grudge over it, let alone a ragequit like he did.
I think Kleves' proposal to ban province sales is a good one and will second it heartily. We should, of course, be allowed to sell provinces to come to compliance with peace treaties (as selling them is often the only way to actually agree with player-made terms due to the retarded peace-system of the game), but otherwise they should be completely banned. This will, hopefully, lead to a situation in which people actually view the "Colonialism" CB as something to be used.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2010, 04:06:03 PM
I think Kleves' proposal to ban province sales is a good one and will second it heartily. We should, of course, be allowed to sell provinces to come to compliance with peace treaties (as selling them is often the only way to actually agree with player-made terms due to the retarded peace-system of the game), but otherwise they should be completely banned. This will, hopefully, lead to a situation in which people actually view the "Colonialism" CB as something to be used.
What's to stop players from entering into phony wars to accomplish the same thing?
The problem seems to be that everyone realizes that you can accomplish more with diplomacy than with guns. I don't see what can be done to change that.
Quote from: DGuller on April 23, 2010, 04:13:28 PM
What's to stop players from entering into phony wars to accomplish the same thing?
Gentlemen's agreement?
I actually think we look at a game like this too rationally. What we need is a little irrational roleplaying. Like the Brits trying to stay on the Continent, or squabbles over religion.
Quote from: Kleves on April 23, 2010, 04:30:06 PM
I actually think we look at a game like this too rationally. What we need is a little irrational roleplaying. Like the Brits trying to stay on the Continent, or squabbles over religion.
Considering the benefits that one can reap within the HRE for having others be of your religion, I can assure you that I'm going to fight it out if anyone tries to bully other German Protestants.
Quote from: DGuller on April 23, 2010, 04:13:28 PM
What's to stop players from entering into phony wars to accomplish the same thing?
The problem seems to be that everyone realizes that you can accomplish more with diplomacy than with guns. I don't see what can be done to change that.
The wrath of the GM (I nominate myself), primarily. Phony wars are not to be accepted by anyone and I don't think anyone's honestly going to enter into them to cheat the system. We're all pretty honest about following out-of-game constraints, I would think.
Quote from: Kleves on April 23, 2010, 04:30:06 PM
Gentlemen's agreement?
Of course, but still, you can't force someone to fight when they're in the mood to make a deal. Even if you force the two countries to go to war to settle the ownership of one province in question, you can't force them to bash each other's armies and navies over it if they don't want to. How many dead do there have to be before gentlemen's agreement is considered to be abided by?
The only way you'll get away from the normal trend of EU MP games is to have a random round robin where everyone gets a new nation for each session... but that would not be fun at all lol
I am fine with banning province sale, and a gentlemen's agreement over no phony wars, but having a GM decide what war is just and what phony is not a good idea.
And Brandenburg is Catholic, and a member of the Holy Roman Empire, so I expect them to act in accordance with their Habsburg Emperor's interests :P
I personally don't like the "no selling" idea. I don't like house rules that have a lot of gray area to them. No spies, no conquering China, that's easy to enforce, because it's easy to detect. "No selling" is a lot harder to enforce, because there are ways around it, both explicitly and implicitly.
As I said earlier, the real problem is that there are usually very good incentives to handle everything peacefully, and to change the outcome you have to change the incentives. Changing the tools with which you act upon the incentives is more often annoying than effective.
Yeah I can live with no selling but would prefer no house rules at all.
And its not like diplomacy is the devil's work. If Kleves managed to convince everyone that is fine and dandy to have him conquer the middle of europe uninterrupted, thats the fault of the players and not the system. Same goes for katmai paving the way for the French into the Far East.
I wanna see Habbu powergame a 1 province Brandenburg, cmon tamas you know you want to too.
Quote from: Tamas on April 23, 2010, 05:21:42 PM
Yeah I can live with no selling but would prefer no house rules at all.
And its not like diplomacy is the devil's work. If Kleves managed to convince everyone that is fine and dandy to have him conquer the middle of europe uninterrupted, thats the fault of the players and not the system. Same goes for katmai paving the way for the French into the Far East.
motherfucker!
I'll have you know I paved way for UK too!
Give me my due recognition!
Quote from: katmai on April 23, 2010, 05:24:09 PM
Quote from: Tamas on April 23, 2010, 05:21:42 PM
Yeah I can live with no selling but would prefer no house rules at all.
And its not like diplomacy is the devil's work. If Kleves managed to convince everyone that is fine and dandy to have him conquer the middle of europe uninterrupted, thats the fault of the players and not the system. Same goes for katmai paving the way for the French into the Far East.
motherfucker!
I'll have you know I paved way for UK too!
Give me my due recognition!
:lol: fine, you let in the UK too.
So I was saying, guns dont kill people, and such.
To fuck with house rules. You can get a pop-up about province sales like I do. If you see country A selling a province to country B, knowing that sale will fuck you up in the long run, you either do something about it or it's on you.
Now of course, it is sensible to expect that someone won't go all katmai and hand over free lunches like it was Christmas. But you cant stop that with house rules.
One guy sells a whole continent and is marked for life, fuck you all I'm slargosing then!
The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that Berkut is right. Why stop someone from expanding when you can just match his expansion yourself? The world is big, probably way too big, for everyone. Why fight to the death for a piece of bread, when you can just walk over to the side and take as much cake as you want unopposed?
If we declare everything except Europe and Mediterranean off-limits, then we'll see some fur fly. Of course, it won't be a EU3 game anymore, and it wouldn't be a fair game for everyone.
Considering we have what, 9 players? I don't think the world is big enough. :P
Quote from: Solmyr on April 23, 2010, 05:49:35 PM
Considering we have what, 9 players? I don't think the world is big enough. :P
That's only what, 140 provinces per player?
Quote from: Kleves on April 23, 2010, 04:30:06 PM
I actually think we look at a game like this too rationally. What we need is a little irrational roleplaying. Like the Brits trying to stay on the Continent, or squabbles over religion.
I couldn't imagine playing any other way as England/Britain; which of course is why I only play against AI and not human opponents. I do, however, read these Languish game threads with enormous pleasure. Please keep up the good work.
Quote from: DGuller on April 23, 2010, 05:42:10 PM
The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that Berkut is right. Why stop someone from expanding when you can just match his expansion yourself? The world is big, probably way too big, for everyone. Why fight to the death for a piece of bread, when you can just walk over to the side and take as much cake as you want unopposed?
We could set up some sort of "victory conditions" for each power, and the one that comes closest to fulfilling them wins at the end. Something like "control Antwerp, Milan, Quebec, Strasbourg, and Navarre." That would cause ensure conflict between players, and help to ensure that there are no iron-clad alliances. Plus, it would let us pick a winner in the end.
Quote from: Kleves on April 23, 2010, 06:31:56 PM
We could set up some sort of "victory conditions" for each power, and the one that comes closest to fulfilling them wins at the end. Something like "control Antwerp, Milan, Quebec, Strasbourg, and Navarre." That would cause ensure conflict between players, and help to ensure that there are no iron-clad alliances. Plus, it would let us pick a winner in the end.
This assumes people actually attempt to win by those conditions. :P I know I set my own goals depending on my country, and consider the game "won" if I fulfill them.
Yep I agree with Sol as that is pretty much same approach I take.
I know I was content with where Portugal stood when game was called.
My France though...
If I didn't always work Sundays when you guys were playing, I'd consider joining. :(
Quote from: Kleves on April 23, 2010, 06:31:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 23, 2010, 05:42:10 PM
The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking that Berkut is right. Why stop someone from expanding when you can just match his expansion yourself? The world is big, probably way too big, for everyone. Why fight to the death for a piece of bread, when you can just walk over to the side and take as much cake as you want unopposed?
We could set up some sort of "victory conditions" for each power, and the one that comes closest to fulfilling them wins at the end. Something like "control Antwerp, Milan, Quebec, Strasbourg, and Navarre." That would cause ensure conflict between players, and help to ensure that there are no iron-clad alliances. Plus, it would let us pick a winner in the end.
This is not Here I Stand :yuk:
Quote from: Solmyr on April 23, 2010, 07:09:55 PM
I know I set my own goals depending on my country, and consider the game "won" if I fulfill them.
That's kind of the problem, isn't it? :P
I've been meaning to ask. If a game needs a counter to Austria and France to restrain their expansion, why does nobody want to play Burgundy in a start pre-1477?
Quote from: Agelastus on April 23, 2010, 08:17:26 PM
I've been meaning to ask. If a game needs a counter to Austria and France to restrain their expansion, why does nobody want to play Burgundy in a start pre-1477?
My guess is "lol let's partition Burgundy."
Quote from: Agelastus on April 23, 2010, 08:17:26 PM
I've been meaning to ask. If a game needs a counter to Austria and France to restrain their expansion, why does nobody want to play Burgundy in a start pre-1477?
Probably bias towards the way actual history played out (which didn't turn out well for Burgundy, obviously).
The problem with having a Burgundy is that, to properly expand, they're going to have to go in one direction or the other. They simply share too many similar-culture provinces with their largest neighbors to remain extant without squishing France (best case) or a lot of the German minors (worst case) in the process. Of course, Burgundy is an interesting country to play as they definitely have a chance at perpetually being elected Emperor.
I'd be tempted to take them up if not for my strong desire to play Brandenburg-Prussia this time around.
Quote from: Agelastus on April 23, 2010, 05:58:55 PM
Quote from: Kleves on April 23, 2010, 04:30:06 PM
I actually think we look at a game like this too rationally. What we need is a little irrational roleplaying. Like the Brits trying to stay on the Continent, or squabbles over religion.
I couldn't imagine playing any other way as England/Britain; which of course is why I only play against AI and not human opponents. I do, however, read these Languish game threads with enormous pleasure. Please keep up the good work.
I actually don't understand the reticence of no risk-taking amongst the players that take on England. If anyone's more insulated from their fuck-ups in foreign policy than the other countries, it's Britain.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2010, 09:43:46 PM
I actually don't understand the reticence of no risk-taking amongst the players that take on England. If anyone's more insulated from their fuck-ups in foreign policy than the other countries, it's Britain.
I'm not sure I agree. Britain is one naval disaster away from being up shit creek without a paddle, especially further on in the game. They have plenty of territories to defend, and no manpower to spare. Colonial powers are brittle, and absolutely need to have their foreign diplomacy in order to avoid a costly setback.
The manpower thing is a killer. They just run out of troops, immediately.
Quote from: DGuller on April 23, 2010, 10:13:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 23, 2010, 09:43:46 PM
I actually don't understand the reticence of no risk-taking amongst the players that take on England. If anyone's more insulated from their fuck-ups in foreign policy than the other countries, it's Britain.
I'm not sure I agree. Britain is one naval disaster away from being up shit creek without a paddle, especially further on in the game. They have plenty of territories to defend, and no manpower to spare. Colonial powers are brittle, and absolutely need to have their foreign diplomacy in order to avoid a costly setback.
Naval disaster against whom? Spain? They're the only power that can threaten Britain point-for-point at sea and even then wouldn't be able to do so if the British assure themselves of better naval leadership through use of Seahawks and Naval College (Admiralty? Whatever the +1 tradition/year is called).
Quote from: Berkut on April 23, 2010, 10:44:17 PM
The manpower thing is a killer. They just run out of troops, immediately.
Building regimental camps and taking National Conscripts would help them a lot in that sphere.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 24, 2010, 12:21:37 AM
Naval disaster against whom? Spain? They're the only power that can threaten Britain point-for-point at sea and even then wouldn't be able to do so if the British assure themselves of better naval leadership through use of Seahawks and Naval College (Admiralty? Whatever the +1 tradition/year is called).
It's not very likely, but it's possible. It gets more likely if British are fighting two naval powers at once. However, if it does happen, it's an unmitigated disaster.
Are we playing tomorrow? If so, what's the start time?
Yes. 7:30 Pacific.
I can only play till about 2:30 / 3:00 edt
I don't like much of any house rules. Let people play games the way they want to play them, IMO.
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 24, 2010, 09:14:45 PM
I don't like much of any house rules. Let people play games the way they want to play them, IMO.
Fund Patriots is now legal, then?
Everyone, please make sure you have patched up to the proper checksum. That goes double for the new players--Sol and Tamas' friends.
Also, Tamas, please kick the idle people from our Hamachi server; it's currently full and we'll need the slots for the new players.
Since I won't have chance to check till morning. The ihks or whatever is the up to date checksum?
Quote from: katmai on April 24, 2010, 11:55:41 PM
Since I won't have chance to check till morning. The ihks or whatever is the up to date checksum?
Yes.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 24, 2010, 10:11:36 PM
Everyone, please make sure you have patched up to the proper checksum. That goes double for the new players--Sol and Tamas' friends.
Also, Tamas, please kick the idle people from our Hamachi server; it's currently full and we'll need the slots for the new players.
I have removed Slarg and Berk
So we are starting 4:30PM CET, correct?
Quote from: Habbaku on April 24, 2010, 10:04:20 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 24, 2010, 09:14:45 PM
I don't like much of any house rules. Let people play games the way they want to play them, IMO.
Fund Patriots is now legal, then?
Was fixed in a patch, don't see why not.
I leave it to Sol to post a decent world-map.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1494econ.jpg&hash=7f1275d8165655a1ece306ab8571c4046eeb54af)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1494army.jpg&hash=f6e3d54adfda03624e8396a163c16dad3689ed51)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1494navy.jpg&hash=bdcf502cb93395b3256218a8c1f7d7eb050a2b18)
There isn't anything special on the world map yet.
I forgot two cardinal rules of Languish mp games: never fight France, and never rely on Tamas to do anything. :P
Never fight France unless you're prepared I believe is what you mean. ;)
Ditto on trusting Tamas, though.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 25, 2010, 03:51:31 PM
There isn't anything special on the world map yet.
My righteous inheritance of Hesse and conquest of Leipzig and Pommern are note-worthy! :mad:
Quote from: Solmyr on April 25, 2010, 03:51:31 PM
There isn't anything special on the world map yet.
I forgot two cardinal rules of Languish mp games: never fight France, and never rely on Tamas to do anything. :P
Threatened me when I was low and then attacked me... I should have taken Girona and Navarra when you were reduced to insurrection. :glare:
Solmyr how dare you put this shit on me! :ultra:
You go against France without first checking with me. Then you fuck up the war, but instead of peacing out, you decide to fight on then collapse.
Then you tell me to help. By this time I am bordering both France and the Ottomans. The Ottos did not realize I was in PU with the Magyars from the start so did not use their starting war to grab stuff from them. Ergo, I inherited entire Hungary.
Now, what I faced was:
-Spain's imminent collapse, and I do mean imminent, with Venice/Italy, his ally, in bad shape as well.
-my army being in no shape to fight against France and the Ottomans
-it was totally clear that the Ottos would attack me if I tangle with France. They were right to do so, it would had been a stupid move to stay out of it.
So I had to try and save Spain by diplomacy. I failed, Alci kept stalling. So I went in. Days before Spain was kicked out of the war by enforced peace. And of course the Ottos came for the party.
So it was you who created a clusterfuck which costed me about a third of the territories I inherited. Thank you very much. :P
I asked you to attack France very early, at the same time I was DOWing. You mulled around doing nothing until I collapsed. Be more decisive next time, ffs! You don't need to talk for two years before attacking. :P
Quote from: Solmyr on April 25, 2010, 04:13:55 PM
I asked you to attack France very early, at the same time I was DOWing. You mulled around doing nothing until I collapsed. Be more decisive next time, ffs! You don't need to talk for two years before attacking. :P
Did you read what I just wrote? :P I did not attack right away because I saw a chance to save you without ruining myself.
Next time when I say no on attacking someone, treat is as a 'no'.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 25, 2010, 04:00:06 PM
Quote from: Solmyr on April 25, 2010, 03:51:31 PM
There isn't anything special on the world map yet.
My righteous inheritance of Hesse and conquest of Leipzig and Pommern are note-worthy! :mad:
Your position on the economic chart is also noted. :P I welcome you to spread civilization to the Poles, heck I will even help you, but your days of intra-HRE blobbing must come to an end.
Quote from: Tamas on April 25, 2010, 04:18:28 PM
Your position on the economic chart is also noted. :P I welcome you to spread civilization to the Poles, heck I will even help you, but your days of intra-HRE blobbing must come to an end.
My economic position is not so much high as the rest of you are low. That said, I would be happy to join a crusade against the Poles and gank their Baltic provinces while you grab, well, whatever it is you like.
Poor Tamas, he likes to play games but always appears to be bad at them.
In hindsight, I probably should've given up on Savoy earlier, that would've avoided that whole comedy. I guess I just got overconfident on being able to hold off the French after destroying their two big stacks. My allies certainly paid for my misjudgment.
Quote from: garbon on April 25, 2010, 04:32:43 PM
Poor Tamas, he likes to play games but always appears to be bad at them.
See, Sol? Someone actually believes this shit.
Quote from: DGuller on April 25, 2010, 04:35:54 PM
In hindsight, I probably should've given up on Savoy earlier, that would've avoided that whole comedy. I guess I just got overconfident on being able to hold off the French after destroying their two big stacks. My allies certainly paid for my misjudgment.
The best kind of war to lose is where others pay for your mistakes. :D
Considering that there's basically nobody who can stand up to France now, by some measures given on this forum it's already effectively "won" the game. :P
:lol: One session and the hyperbole is already reaching new lows.
Shouldn't that be new highs?
Quote from: Habbaku on April 25, 2010, 05:20:13 PM
:lol: One session and the hyperbole is already reaching new lows.
So, who's going to stop him, you?
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cdn.tripadvisor.com%2Fmedia%2Fphoto-s%2F01%2F08%2F60%2F87%2Fi-win.jpg&hash=fb3bb823066d613023c609094af087cb8d39197c)
lol can i be ottoman empire next game?
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 25, 2010, 06:05:26 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia-cdn.tripadvisor.com%2Fmedia%2Fphoto-s%2F01%2F08%2F60%2F87%2Fi-win.jpg&hash=fb3bb823066d613023c609094af087cb8d39197c)
lol can i be ottoman empire next game?
The way you're going, the Ottoman Empire might be part of you this game.
Oh please, by setting up that buffer I've alienated every one of my neighbors, unfortunately. Had I been powergaming I would have completely reduced Spain instead of getting the one province that completes Southern France. In addition, I would have ripped most of the Netherlands off of Austria when the Ottomans invaded instead of settling for his two isolated provinces that he couldn't even get to. That would have pushed me way above everyone else.
Where I am now is not very far above the rest. Austria is barely below my income and probably has just as much manpower. Let alone the coalitions you guys will set up to bring down this perceived monster you are putting into peoples heads. :weep:
P.S. Be aware of the Russian bear, you see that country already? :shutup:
Seriously, you're afraid of Austria? :rolleyes:
I still don't get the "buffer" logic. I can understand you wanting to get your paws on Savoy, after all even the real French got a part of it eventually. But why do you need a buffer so badly? Are you afraid of a massed invasion? Is my massed invasion going to stall somehow because I would have to traverse one extra layer of provinces on my way?
Quote from: Solmyr on April 25, 2010, 06:24:45 PM
Seriously, you're afraid of Austria? :rolleyes:
Re: Coalitions
Quote from: DGuller on April 25, 2010, 06:25:28 PM
I still don't get the "buffer" logic. I can understand you wanting to get your paws on Savoy, after all even the real French got a part of it eventually. But why do you need a buffer so badly? Are you afraid of a massed invasion? Is my massed invasion going to stall somehow because I would have to traverse one extra layer of provinces on my way?
Lebensraum dammit. And vacation spots.
Damn right you should be afraid of the coalition. Another war or two by all of us, and you'll be hit with over-extension penalty.
Quote from: DGuller on April 25, 2010, 06:43:27 PM
Damn right you should be afraid of the coalition. Another war or two by all of us, and you'll be hit with over-extension penalty.
That'll show him, huh? :lol:
I think I had the worst possible start possible as Sweden.
I mean getting my ass handed to me by Norway and Poland WTF?
Quote from: DGuller on April 25, 2010, 06:43:27 PM
Damn right you should be afraid of the coalition. Another war or two by all of us, and you'll be hit with over-extension penalty.
:lmfao:
Quote from: DGuller on April 25, 2010, 05:23:03 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 25, 2010, 05:20:13 PM
:lol: One session and the hyperbole is already reaching new lows.
So, who's going to stop him, you?
The peaceful Margravate of Brandenburg-Hesse-Leipzig-vorPommern cares not for war. Can't we all just get along?
Well, thanks to Solmyr's disastrous rampage through the status quo of Europe, we are back to the usual fare: I am well enough to balance France OR the Ottomans, but not both at the same time unless I have allies.
That said, I do not subscribe to the panic of my estemeed and ruined Castilian friend. France is surely smarter than to make a sudden and doomed to failure bid for european supremacy, while the Ottomans have much unclaimed land in the Middle East.
:shifty:
I've looked at the situation - would folks terribly mind if I switched to Portugal? It's about as strong as Castile at this point, but at least I'd be able to do something instead of sitting on my ass minting at full for the next few decades. And Portugal can also form Spain. :P
Quote from: Solmyr on April 26, 2010, 02:33:07 AM
:shifty:
I've looked at the situation - would folks terribly mind if I switched to Portugal? It's about as strong as Castile at this point, but at least I'd be able to do something instead of sitting on my ass minting at full for the next few decades. And Portugal can also form Spain. :P
As of this moment, I am the King of Portugal :contract:
Quote from: Tamas on April 26, 2010, 02:34:48 AM
As of this moment, I am the King of Portugal :contract:
I'm sure I could break that PU easily, with you excommunicated. The Portuguese are good Catholics and don't like a heretic on their throne. :pope:
And what's your plan with Castille? Distribute it among Portugal and France? Great plan :P
I'm sure France is surely smarter than to make a sudden and doomed to failure bid for european supremacy. :P Besides, isn't it your job to keep them balanced?
Wait, wait, wait.
I am running Sweden at 19%inflation with Poland occupying northern Sweden and a Norway that is stronger than me and you are trying to get out of Castile?!?!
I might as well switch to Poland.
Quote from: katmai on April 26, 2010, 04:32:48 AM
Wait, wait, wait.
I am running Sweden at 19%inflation with Poland occupying northern Sweden and a Norway that is stronger than me and you are trying to get out of Castile?!?!
I might as well switch to Poland.
Habbaku will protest that :lol:
We need more friction!!!11
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 26, 2010, 08:25:57 AM
We need more friction!!!11
On the contrary, some of us desperately need more lube.
Quote from: katmai on April 26, 2010, 04:32:48 AM
Wait, wait, wait.
I am running Sweden at 19%inflation with Poland occupying northern Sweden and a Norway that is stronger than me and you are trying to get out of Castile?!?!
Losing to France is more justifiable than losing to Poland. Even Muscovy beat Poland. :P
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2010, 08:27:49 AM
some of us desperately need more lube.
Who set DG off on this topic again?
Quote from: Berkut on April 26, 2010, 09:16:37 AM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2010, 08:27:49 AM
some of us desperately need more lube.
Who set DG off on this topic again?
I just keep setting it up, don't I? :pinch:
:face:
Quote from: Solmyr on April 26, 2010, 02:33:07 AM
:shifty:
I've looked at the situation - would folks terribly mind if I switched to Portugal? It's about as strong as Castile at this point, but at least I'd be able to do something instead of sitting on my ass minting at full for the next few decades. And Portugal can also form Spain. :P
:rolleyes: Why would you need to mint at full for the next few decades? You got yourself into whatever mess you did--live with it. Castile is by no means unplayable at this point.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2010, 10:25:14 AM
:rolleyes: Why would you need to mint at full for the next few decades? You got yourself into whatever mess you did--live with it. Castile is by no means unplayable at this point.
No stability and no legitimacy means no income, means I have to mint to pay off my huge loans (which in turn means I cannot put anything into stability increase and will remain behind in tech for the foreseeable future).
I can keep playing Castile of course, just unlikely that it'll get anywhere at this point, especially with random rebels spawning 15 stacks including artillery which I have no way of defeating.
I think you'll spend a session recovering, certainly, but wise (read : peaceful) administration should be able to drag you out of the loop. Once your king dies, your legitimacy will recover as well. You might also consider hiring some legitimacy-boosting advisors and getting as many RMs as you can to fix the problem.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2010, 10:33:03 AM
I think you'll spend a session recovering, certainly, but wise (read : peaceful) administration should be able to drag you out of the loop. Once your king dies, your legitimacy will recover as well. You might also consider hiring some legitimacy-boosting advisors and getting as many RMs as you can to fix the problem.
I'm in regency, and the heir has a weak claim, so I'm looking at at least another reign of low legitimacy. And I just found out I apparently have some kind of civil war event chain too, which basically prevents me from getting stability up. And of course no money to colonize means England gets a free hand in the New World.
After having played a few years of your Castile out, I think it's not nearly as difficult as you may think. However, you need to take drastic measures to cute down your payments. Specifically dismantling some of the regiments (cavalry, I recommend) and cutting the maintenance of your fleet down to 0. In addition, if you can swing a long-term loan from, say, France, Venice, England or Austria so you can pay off your loans as they come due, you can afford to invest in Stability again which will bring you back to a semblance of sanity. I suggest passing out the beggar's plate...
Edit : As for your legitimacy, you'll recover that swiftly enough if you can keep several RMs and get positive Stability again. Getting RMs with as many people as possible should leave you sitting around ~9-10% gain a year, which will enable you to recover after five or six years at the most.
Let this be a warning for when I say there will be repercussions if you intervene and threaten me. :cool:
Quote from: Berkut on April 26, 2010, 09:43:36 AM
I think the
:pinch:
comes after the
:boff:
Sounds like someone just needs practice.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2010, 11:55:10 AM
After having played a few years of your Castile out, I think it's not nearly as difficult as you may think. However, you need to take drastic measures to cute down your payments. Specifically dismantling some of the regiments (cavalry, I recommend) and cutting the maintenance of your fleet down to 0. In addition, if you can swing a long-term loan from, say, France, Venice, England or Austria so you can pay off your loans as they come due, you can afford to invest in Stability again which will bring you back to a semblance of sanity. I suggest passing out the beggar's plate...
Edit : As for your legitimacy, you'll recover that swiftly enough if you can keep several RMs and get positive Stability again. Getting RMs with as many people as possible should leave you sitting around ~9-10% gain a year, which will enable you to recover after five or six years at the most.
I can't give a loan, Venetian bankers didn't become rich by lending money to the likes of Solmyr. However, I can continue providing rebel whacking help.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2010, 11:55:10 AM
After having played a few years of your Castile out, I think it's not nearly as difficult as you may think. However, you need to take drastic measures to cute down your payments. Specifically dismantling some of the regiments (cavalry, I recommend) and cutting the maintenance of your fleet down to 0.
Wouldn't that just be inviting rebels to overrun my provinces if I don't have armies to defeat them? I'm already reduced to hoping that no rebels pop up in Barcelona, since they get 12k infantry and 1k artillery there at Aragon's 14 land tech.
I played it a bit myself, just have to hope that the total war event series triggers and finishes fast enough (of course most events there just drop my stab back to -3). Funnily enough the Ottomans inherited the Mamluks and Ak Koyunlu very quickly in at least two playthroughs. I think we can safely conclude that the French-Ottoman alliance is not going to be taken down this game...
And of course if anyone has gold to spare to ensure some semblance of order on France's southern border, it would not be forgotten.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 26, 2010, 12:12:18 PM
Wouldn't that just be inviting rebels to overrun my provinces if I don't have armies to defeat them? I'm already reduced to hoping that no rebels pop up in Barcelona, since they get 12k infantry and 1k artillery there at Aragon's 14 land tech.
Your RR is ~4% in most provinces and will only fall as you gain in Stability/Legitimacy. If you keep an army of ~20 regiments, that should be more than enough to just swamp whatever rebels do spawn, artillery or no. That and the Venetians have already made their offer to assist you.
As for the Franco-Ottoman alliance, I don't see that as undefeatable in the least. It is while Spain's a cripple, sure, but a strong Spain combined with Italy, Britain and Austria could take them down. Of course, this assumes that the French and Ottomans would even make common cause against that sort of coalition, or that the Ottomans would die for France and vice-versa--not something I'm gamble the house on.
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2010, 12:08:03 PM
I can't give a loan, Venetian bankers didn't become rich by lending money to the likes of Solmyr. However, I can continue providing rebel whacking help.
Who said the loan would not turn a profit? I don't think anyone expects to loan money to Sol and not see a return on it.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2010, 12:17:17 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 26, 2010, 12:08:03 PM
I can't give a loan, Venetian bankers didn't become rich by lending money to the likes of Solmyr. However, I can continue providing rebel whacking help.
Who said the loan would not turn a profit? I don't think anyone expects to loan money to Sol and not see a return on it.
Venetian banks don't dabble in subprime loans (and they also don't have any cash to spare).
And I can't give a loan to someone who has sworn to attack me at any given opportunity.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2010, 10:25:14 AM
You got yourself into whatever mess you did--live with it. Castile is by no means unplayable at this point.
Didn't you guys say earlier that switching nations was ok?
Quote from: ulmont on April 26, 2010, 12:26:35 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 26, 2010, 10:25:14 AM
You got yourself into whatever mess you did--live with it. Castile is by no means unplayable at this point.
Didn't you guys say earlier that switching nations was ok?
Yeah but an AI big-ass Castille is not the same as some ruined reduced small backwater piece of crap.
Aka Sweden
Quote from: katmai on April 26, 2010, 01:46:55 PM
Aka Sweden
You said it :P
Oh, and sorry for spamming you with mil. access requests, I was so busy I forgot Sweden had a player :P
This Shiite religion is a shit. :mad:
You could have the Ottomans force-convert you. :)
People! I am determined to -despite my injuries I have suffered in the recent wars- visit Istanbul for the weekend, to conduct high-level diplomacy with the Sultan.
As such, I will need a sub for the weekend. I would like to find one before Friday morning my time, so I can brief him properly.
I may not be able to make it either, though not sure yet.
Quote from: DGuller on April 27, 2010, 11:45:11 PM
I may not be able to make it either, though not sure yet.
I have dibs on ulmont!
Quote from: Habbaku on April 27, 2010, 02:09:44 PM
You could have the Ottomans force-convert you. :)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
anyway:
I have the problem with the shiites becauseof this religion the local tax modifier is -20%,but advantage is +0,5 morale for landforce.I dont know +0,5 morale is better then tax penality... :hmm:
On the other hand in my empire local religoins :50%sunni,50%hindu,so I need to convert the hole country . :cry:
I'm out of town this weekend, tamas, or I would have said something already.
You'd be better off Sunni, Anatron
I NEED A SUB!
Dont ask Martinus. His has a screen door.
Ok, so I will send a set of instructions to be followed as the word of God by my substitute, if you find any, to Anatron. Ask him to forward it to the lucky person.
.... Well I don't think anyone here has any ideas on a substitute, so ask the other thread if any one can do it and if not there try Paradox....otherwise we might have to AI you. :mellow:
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 29, 2010, 01:50:46 PM
.... Well I don't think anyone here has any ideas on a substitute, so ask the other thread if any one can do it and if not there try Paradox....otherwise we might have to AI you. :mellow:
You CANNOT AI me dude it will fuck up everything I try to achieve.
You can't post on Paradox to find yourself a substitute? I don't see it as our responsibility to find you one. :mellow:
AI works out ok - just look how well France went last night.
Quote from: Tamas on April 29, 2010, 01:53:54 PM
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 29, 2010, 01:50:46 PM
.... Well I don't think anyone here has any ideas on a substitute, so ask the other thread if any one can do it and if not there try Paradox....otherwise we might have to AI you. :mellow:
You CANNOT AI me dude it will fuck up everything I try to achieve.
Worse case I can make my girlfriend play for you....but I think the most advanced computer game shes ever played is Sally's Spa. :mellow:
Quote from: Berkut on April 29, 2010, 02:43:35 PM
AI works out ok - just look how well France went last night.
The AI is smarter than me so not surprised by that at all
I will sub for Tamas.
I guess Tamas is going to ignore this thread in hopes it goes away.
Quote from: Habbaku on April 30, 2010, 01:13:17 AM
I guess Tamas is going to ignore this thread in hopes it goes away.
:D
You can't AI me :P
I opened a thread over at Paradox last night so I hope someone eventually shows up, please do check on that thread as well: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473631 (http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=473631)
I will be on my way to Turkey in a couple of hours.
You don't trust Jaron?
Getting PUUM for the newest beta... you guys? :unsure:
You should be getting HYTM. PUUM is what you get when first starting--just restart the game and it should correct itself.
Everyone, please update ASAP so we don't have to sort anything out come Sunday, aside from Tamas' retardation. This goes double for Kleves.
HYTM, got it.
Ok. Using my new rig, I'll need Hamachi I'm guessing, and you guys may need a new Ip to connect to me just a heads up.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 30, 2010, 03:39:36 PM
You don't trust Jaron?
I think Tamas meant by the AI.So If Jaron want he can join our game.I can send him Tamas's instruction.
If Tamas is ok with it, Jaron isn't normally very trustable, no offense J. :P
Quote from: Alcibiades on May 01, 2010, 11:23:09 AM
If Tamas is ok with it, Jaron isn't normally very trustable, no offense J. :P
Tamas cant answer because he is not home at the moment.He said to me find some one if possible,he dont wants AI player thats all.
Since we don't have a sub for Tamas, does anyone feel strongly one way or the other about having Austria go AI this time around? I am not opposed to it as Tamas had plenty of warning when he was going away on his trip, but I would encourage that we "go easy" on Austria while he's AI-controlled and maybe refund him some inflation and maybe something else when he gets back if we do play.
Anyone opposed to it? Suggestions? Just skip tomorrow?
I vote for skipping tomorrow.
We need a sub, Jaron is better than AI. We shouldn't skip because one asshole decides not to show up. <_<
With a game with this many players we'll be skipping every week.
I wanna know what kinda of schmuck doesn't get a sub if he knows he will be put of town.
Alright, Jaron will sub for Tamas tomorrow unless there are any vehement objections. Got him all set up over chat, make sure you post your steam name so people can add you.
Never mind.
My new IP for tomorrow is 5.153.26.30
Quote from: Habbaku on May 01, 2010, 05:48:50 PM
Since we don't have a sub for Tamas, does anyone feel strongly one way or the other about having Austria go AI this time around? I am not opposed to it as Tamas had plenty of warning when he was going away on his trip, but I would encourage that we "go easy" on Austria while he's AI-controlled and maybe refund him some inflation and maybe something else when he gets back if we do play.
I'm fine with that (assuming Jaron doesn't work out).
My one concern with AI Austria is that it tends to get into wars with Venice, a lot. Plus, in general, having an emperor go AI is way too much of a bad thing. If the option is for Austria to go AI, then I would strongly object.
Well that and your BB is at like 40.
Not quite, it's in high 20ies at worst.
Ah, well last time I looked was when I was at war with you and you were at ~38 lol
I don't think we should have ai Austria
that is as silly as ai France <_< :P
so if we can't agree on Jaron joining then I say skip it and I'll sleep in tomorrow morning.
Quote from: Alcibiades on May 01, 2010, 07:51:23 PM
Never mind.
Nevermind that bit about Jaron playing, or nevermind something else?
Had a thing about Hamachi up, but figured it out on my own. Jaron still playing from what he told me. Anatron can send him the info.
Quote from: Alcibiades on May 01, 2010, 07:26:39 PM
With a game with this many players we'll be skipping every week.
Nope, we just need to be less tolerant of people not being here without getting themselves a sub beforehand. If they go AI, too bad.
So are we playing with the new beta patch today?
We are always playing with new beta patches.
I have sent the instruction to Jaron ,I hope he recieved it.
If not during the game I can tell it to him.
Aniway starting tim 16:30?
I mean 14:30 according greenwich mean time.
So what is the deal for today's session?
Forging ahead with ai Austria, Jaron playing or skipping the week?
Should be starting in a few minutes here.
Quote from: katmai on May 02, 2010, 09:24:03 AM
So what is the deal for today's session?
Forging ahead with ai Austria, Jaron playing or skipping the week?
Dont know.I not recieved any answer.
We're playing. Get online or go AI, people.
Quote from: Kleves on May 02, 2010, 09:37:10 AM
We're playing. Get online or go AI, people.
What is the IP?
Quote from: katmai on May 02, 2010, 09:24:03 AM
So what is the deal for today's session?
Forging ahead with ai Austria, Jaron playing or skipping the week?
You know, you could just log on to Steam to find out.
Are you connected to Hamachi? You have to connect to a new server: languish-mp password: eu3.
Not in steam?
5.153.26.30
games up
Where'd you disappear to katmai?
Quote from: DGuller on May 02, 2010, 09:41:12 AM
Quote from: katmai on May 02, 2010, 09:24:03 AM
So what is the deal for today's session?
Forging ahead with ai Austria, Jaron playing or skipping the week?
You know, you could just log on to Steam to find out.
That would have entailed getting out of bed, instead of posting from my iPhone.
Anyways I am having to restart pc as it wasn't detecting internet. But I'm on my way.
steam just finished updating.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg203.imageshack.us%2Fimg203%2F7235%2Feu3mapmp1522.png&hash=b8600d446562b0eeba3b1b06edcb7fdf34ebd025)
Habs can post the rest.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1522econ.jpg&hash=171a96f6d0bb1ee1ec65df8ca07bd7d3d13a5ef5)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1522tech.jpg&hash=3b30fc3abd634584858990ddc73b0a9733c11e83)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1522provinces.jpg&hash=e16e7e4b31910d1c5de1ab4fa1b5646f19311af7)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1522armies.jpg&hash=92eb117444d95912a59a0b94ae45d948ab1a6a2d)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1522navies.jpg&hash=15f784da88a09fe325e1990b754df84c64afadfa)
Venice blue is so much prettier than puke green. :(
Quote from: DGuller on May 02, 2010, 02:05:28 PM
Venice blue is so much prettier than puke green. :(
When did you create Italy? I missed that somehow.
:cheers:
Quote from: sbr on May 02, 2010, 02:13:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on May 02, 2010, 02:05:28 PM
Venice blue is so much prettier than puke green. :(
When did you create Italy? I missed that somehow.
:cheers:
Near the end of the session, right after annexing Aztecs.
The old Emperor will be dead soon...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1522HRE.jpg&hash=e41a5f088e7f62c053ab658d243ad8a3d6d9989c)
Next time, when you have a choice between having Jaron sub for you or going AI, pick the AI.
:huh:
I didn't do anything bad to Austria. Mr. "WAAAAH my country is unplayable. Portugal plx" :showoff:
I do suggest though that you all subtract whatever penalties Tamas would receive from my accidental DoW on katmai.
I think it's only fair to remove ~4-6 Infamy and 4 points of inflation from Tamas, yeah.
I didn't increase his inflation. I made all that money for Tamas by selling real estate and adept financial management. I think you are going overboard with this bailout.
I haven't discovered Khorasan yet, so I forgot that it wouldn't actually include them in the statistics. Here are the econ and army stats with them in it for comparison :
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1522econ-1.jpg&hash=3da118022b64d57cd055a05fb1bf2a02eeb855b4)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi14.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fa313%2FHabbaku%2F1522armies-1.jpg&hash=d5b1468fae5d3e5bb7e34b3100a88320681e8e32)
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2010, 02:55:53 PM
:huh:
I didn't do anything bad to Austria. Mr. "WAAAAH my country is unplayable. Portugal plx" :showoff:
I do find it hilarious, though, that by far the largest stack of Austrian military is stationed in Riga. It's a bit overwhelming, don't you think? :D
Where the hell IS Khorasan?
The Austrian 2nd, 3rd and 5th armies are in Riga because I had them put down rebellions and then used them to conquer "Kurland". I meant to bring them home but Poland denied me military access. The fact that Russia took such notice of them and found it to be as irritating as they did made me think it was a good idea to leave them where they were.
BTW, the full irony of my bailout of Habs just hit me. The Germans were in trouble in a war against Poland, so the Italians came to their rescue and turned the tide. There are a couple of things wrong with that sentence.
Quote from: DGuller on May 02, 2010, 04:47:04 PM
BTW, the full irony of my bailout of Habs just hit me. The Germans were in trouble in a war against Poland, so the Italians came to their rescue and turned the tide. There are a couple of things wrong with that sentence.
Some ally you are. Tamas hands you Italy on a silver platter and you repay him by helping the biggest threat to his position in Europe?
Brandenburg is not his biggest threat, not yet anyway.
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2010, 04:11:56 PM
Where the hell IS Khorasan?
The Austrian 2nd, 3rd and 5th armies are in Riga because I had them put down rebellions and then used them to conquer "Kurland". I meant to bring them home but Poland denied me military access. The fact that Russia took such notice of them and found it to be as irritating as they did made me think it was a good idea to leave them where they were.
Well, I didn't quite found them irritating. A bit odd, rather. I mean sure, rebellions, Kurland and all, but the sheer size of that stack just seemed so out of proportion :O
Quote from: DGuller on May 02, 2010, 04:54:31 PM
Brandenburg is not his biggest threat, not yet anyway.
It really is. :mellow:
Quote from: DGuller on May 02, 2010, 04:54:31 PM
Brandenburg is not his biggest threat, not yet anyway.
France will be his biggest threat until the entirety of the Greater Netherlands is painted blue.
Then the Ottomans will be his biggest.
Quote from: Sacris on May 02, 2010, 05:02:10 PM
Well, I didn't quite found them irritating. A bit odd, rather. I mean sure, rebellions, Kurland and all, but the sheer size of that stack just seemed so out of proportion :O
Out of proportion describes everything you need to know about Jaron.
Speaking of the Ottomans, what was Kleves doing this session? Austria is a shambles and the Turks are...just sitting there.
Quote from: Alcibiades on May 02, 2010, 05:03:11 PM
Quote from: DGuller on May 02, 2010, 04:54:31 PM
Brandenburg is not his biggest threat, not yet anyway.
It really is. :mellow:
In a way...non-emperor Austria will probably have the Ottos laying siege to Vienna in no time.
Quote from: Habbaku on May 02, 2010, 05:04:43 PM
Quote from: Sacris on May 02, 2010, 05:02:10 PM
Well, I didn't quite found them irritating. A bit odd, rather. I mean sure, rebellions, Kurland and all, but the sheer size of that stack just seemed so out of proportion :O
Out of proportion describes everything you need to know about Jaron.
:lmfao:
Quote from: Sacris on May 02, 2010, 05:06:41 PM
In a way...non-emperor Austria will probably have the Ottos laying siege to Vienna in no time.
Only if Tamas insists on being intransigent in his diplomacy with me. I have no interest in seeing the Turks draw deeper into Austria's land and, in fact, would be rather eager to help roll back the tide into Hungary if Tamas made proper concessions.
Quote from: Habbaku on May 02, 2010, 05:19:13 PM
Quote from: Sacris on May 02, 2010, 05:06:41 PM
In a way...non-emperor Austria will probably have the Ottos laying siege to Vienna in no time.
Only if Tamas insists on being intransigent in his diplomacy with me. I have no interest in seeing the Turks draw deeper into Austria's land and, in fact, would be rather eager to help roll back the tide into Hungary if Tamas made proper concessions.
What concessions are you guys talking about, if it's not state secret?
Quote from: Sacris on May 02, 2010, 05:02:10 PM
Quote from: Jaron on May 02, 2010, 04:11:56 PM
Where the hell IS Khorasan?
The Austrian 2nd, 3rd and 5th armies are in Riga because I had them put down rebellions and then used them to conquer "Kurland". I meant to bring them home but Poland denied me military access. The fact that Russia took such notice of them and found it to be as irritating as they did made me think it was a good idea to leave them where they were.
Well, I didn't quite found them irritating. A bit odd, rather. I mean sure, rebellions, Kurland and all, but the sheer size of that stack just seemed so out of proportion :O
Furthermore, I think having Russia invade and take the Baltics would be the best thing that could happen to Tamas. He's getting devastating penalties for holding those territories, and that's why he's losing the polls.
Quote from: Habbaku on May 02, 2010, 05:06:06 PM
Speaking of the Ottomans, what was Kleves doing this session? Austria is a shambles and the Turks are...just sitting there.
:shifty:
Quote from: Habbaku on May 02, 2010, 03:27:27 PM
I think it's only fair to remove ~4-6 Infamy and 4 points of inflation from Tamas, yeah.
I made a couple of bone-head maneuvers, can I has edit?
Ausrtria only holds Riga and he wouldn't have that if session had lasted another 10 mins.
Quote from: katmai on May 02, 2010, 06:21:28 PM
Ausrtria only holds Riga and he wouldn't have that if session had lasted another 10 mins.
Did Jaron throw a garage sale?
You would make it sound like I ruined Austria.
I sold Katmai some Baltic land, yes for a very handsome sum of money. Tamas wanted them released as a vassal, but since I couldn't do that and needed to get rid of the provinces asap it seemed like a win win. He still has kurland and Riga, Katmai - a non threatening power gains two provinces for a large amount of coin.
Honestly the exaggeration you all go through to make it sound like I destroyed Austria is comical.
Austria is intact, I made some infrastructure improvements, I saved money, I build up some troops (he'll be able to get the Riga ones home without a problem), I honored his alliances and agreements that I knew about. The election is going to be a struggle, but that is more a sign of Brandenburgs rising power than anything I did. The accidental DoW on Sweden is regrettable but fixable and I think it will help him a lot. It will probably flip the elector going for Bavaria to Austria and then Tamas will just need to switch one of the other electors to win.
Its not my fault hes the bad boy of Europe.
I wasn't accusing you. I actually think you did a good job, apart from that one accidental war with Sweden.
Yes Jaron just because we wouldn't marry you doesn't mean you needed to DoW me and take -2 stab hit.
So anyone want to go back to this? maybe try DW again?