http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/04/girl-buried-alive-turkey
QuoteTurkish girl, 16, buried alive for talking to boys
Death reopens debate over 'honour' killings in Turkey, which account for half of all the country's murders
Robert Tait in Istanbul guardian.co.uk, Thursday 4 February 2010 19.03 GMT Article history
Turkish police have recovered the body of a 16-year-old girl they say was buried alive by relatives in an "honour" killing carried out as punishment for talking to boys.
The girl, who has been identified only by the initials MM, was found in a sitting position with her hands tied, in a two-metre hole dug under a chicken pen outside her home in Kahta, in the south-eastern province of Adiyaman.
Police made the discovery in December after a tip-off from an informant, the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet reported on its website.
The girl had previously been reported missing.
The informant told the police she had been killed following a family "council" meeting.
Her father and grandfather are said to have been arrested and held in custody pending trial. It is unclear whether they have been charged. The girl's mother was arrested but was later released.
Media reports said the father had told relatives he was unhappy that his daughter – one of nine children – had male friends. The grandfather is said to have beaten her for having relations with the opposite sex.
A postmortem examination revealed large amounts of soil in her lungs and stomach, indicating that she had been alive and conscious while being buried. Her body showed no signs of bruising.
The discovery will reopen the emotive debate in Turkey about "honour" killings, which are particularly prevalent in the impoverished south-east.
Official figures have indicated that more than 200 such killings take place each year, accounting for around half of all murders in Turkey.
Oh those lovable Kurds. All cuddly and shit.
shitty barbarians.
do not want
I think it's amusing that many people actually say that they want these freaks in the EU.
Quote from: The Brain on February 04, 2010, 04:35:28 PM
I think it's amusing that many people actually say that they want these freaks in the EU.
You already have Balkantard countries like Bulgaria and Hungary. I can't see how Turkey could be any worse than that.
Turkey only has 400 murders a year?
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
Turkey only has 400 murders a year?
Hrmm. But they're, umm, dirty?
I'm not sure what to say here. There is a crime, and the police have arrested those responsible and are keeping track of it.
Quote from: The Brain on February 04, 2010, 04:35:28 PM
I think it's amusing that many people actually say that they want these freaks in the EU.
Do you?
Letting Turkey into the EU is the best way of making sure the non-freaks remain in charge in Turkey. I consider that a laudable goal, don't you?
Not really. It's like saying I should let in my smelly, obnoxious, dirty neighbours to live in my house, because otherwise they will wash even less and play music more loudly.
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
Turkey only has 400 murders a year?
Yeah. Good thing America isn't trying to get in the EU
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
Turkey only has 400 murders a year?
That can't be true, surely?
Letting Turkey in is right because they deserve it once they've made some more of the necessary changes to solidify their democracy. On the other hand we should kick out the Cypriots.
Edit: And the Baltics and Romania and Bulgaria.
Quote from: Martinus on February 04, 2010, 05:24:23 PM
Not really. It's like saying I should let in my smelly, obnoxious, dirty neighbours to live in my house, because otherwise they will wash even less and play music more loudly.
They already "live in your house" though; aren't there about seven million of them in Germany for example?
I think Turkey should be allowed into the EU, but maybe that's because I worked alongside a secular Turk for several years (who kept trying to set me up with a Japanese girl she knew, but everybody has their little foibles after all...)
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2010, 05:41:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
Turkey only has 400 murders a year?
That can't be true, surely?
Letting Turkey in is right because they deserve it once they've made some more of the necessary changes to solidify their democracy. On the other hand we should kick out the Cypriots.
Edit: And the Baltics and Romania and Bulgaria.
Why the Baltics?
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2010, 05:41:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
Turkey only has 400 murders a year?
That can't be true, surely?
I think it means 400 honour killings a year, not 400 killings in total. Actually, according to the last figures I can find, Turkey has a murder rate roughly three times that of the UK (per 100000 people.) Although it won't be long before Glasgow surpasses this rate, apparently...
Quote from: Pat on February 04, 2010, 05:47:49 PM
Why the Baltics?
Their discrimination against Baltic Russians is far worse than should be tolerable in the EU.
Quote from: Martinus on February 04, 2010, 05:24:23 PM
Not really. It's like saying I should let in my smelly, obnoxious, dirty neighbours to live in my house, because otherwise they will wash even less and play music more loudly.
More like letting your libidinous, mustachioed neighbors into your homeowners association, because otherwise the mutants they keep in their cellar will break out and murder them and then start throwing firebombs at you.
Also we let the bloody Greeks in. I'd take Turkey over Greece any day.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2010, 05:41:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
Turkey only has 400 murders a year?
That can't be true, surely?
Letting Turkey in is right because they deserve it once they've made some more of the necessary changes to solidify their democracy. On the other hand we should kick out the Cypriots.
Edit: And the Baltics and Romania and Bulgaria.
Once you let in greece it became hard to keep turkey out. They're the same, excpet the turks are less annoying.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2010, 05:58:15 PM
Also we let the bloody Greeks in. I'd take Turkey over Greece any day.
Great minds! :lol:
It really is quite ironic how much the Turks hate any mention of Kurdish independance yet without the Kurdish areas Turkey would be a pretty decent developed country, in the EU long since.
I call BS on the murder figure. No fucking way it is 400 in a country of, what, 70-80 million?
Baltimore should import kurdish shitfuck fanatics... might make the place more peaceful...
Hmmm...
(1) I need to reread articles before I post (see my error above.)
(2) According to 2004 statistics, Turkey should have around 4500 murders a year. However, given the massive jump over the 2002 and 2003 statistics, I suspect that Turkey actually has around 2800 murders a year.
In comparison, Britain has around 1200 murders a year, based on the same source.
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
Turkey only has 400 murders a year?
That was my sole reaction to this otherwise pedestrian piece.
I have no opinion, actually, on the main topic (TU to the EU). Too many imponderables. The EU is either a composite of all the Eurocentrism that Europe has always been, or it sees itself as a civilizing element. I don't know which is true, or which is desirable, but the distinction drives the whole "Turkey for the EU" debate and until Euros decide what they are my opinion matters not, so I won't have one.
I think the Euros should base this decision on self-interest alone.
Quote from: grumbler on February 04, 2010, 06:48:39 PMI think the Euros should base this decision on self-interest alone.
I'm pretty sure they will.
Quote from: Jacob on February 04, 2010, 06:52:17 PM
Quote from: grumbler on February 04, 2010, 06:48:39 PMI think the Euros should base this decision on self-interest alone.
I'm pretty sure they will.
Alas I think a significant portion will base it on a dislike of Muslims, foreigners/outsiders and browner people.
Quote from: Agelastus on February 04, 2010, 05:19:38 PM
Letting Turkey into the EU is the best way of making sure the non-freaks remain in charge in Turkey. I consider that a laudable goal, don't you?
Unfortunately, taking into account those who are in charge of the EU now, I suspect being into the EU is the best way to ensure that the biggest loons get to rule the country.
Quote from: Agelastus
I think Turkey should be allowed into the EU, but maybe that's because I worked alongside a secular Turk for several years (who kept trying to set me up with a Japanese girl she knew, but everybody has their little foibles after all...)
1. No point on wondering, Europe today is WAY too broke to accept anyone, no matter what.
2. I'm divided on the issue, because rejecting Turkey would be the same as saying that Constantinople is not European (and giving up Cappadocia and Bythinia, for that matter), and that is really not accceptable.
3. I take it the Japanese girl was not your type. Did you made any gaffe while talking to her? I suspect you did your best to look good.
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2010, 05:58:15 PM
Also we let the bloody Greeks in. I'd take Turkey over Greece any day.
Under the circumstances, swapping them out looks like a pretty good deal. :P
Quote from: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 06:05:19 PM
I call BS on the murder figure. No fucking way it is 400 in a country of, what, 70-80 million?
Germany had 318 successful and 376 attempted cases of first degree murder in 2008. There were also 338 successful and 1184 attempted cases of manslaughter and other homicides.
So if they just count the successful first degree murders, 400 seems to be a possible number for a country the size of Turkey.
Quote from: Martim Silva on February 04, 2010, 07:36:07 PM2. I'm divided on the issue, because rejecting Turkey would be the same as saying that Constantinople is not European (and giving up Cappadocia and Bythinia, for that matter), and that is really not accceptable.
Why? I would not admit Russia (any time soon) and would still say that Kaliningrad or Moscow are clearly European.
Quote from: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 06:05:19 PM
I call BS on the murder figure. No fucking way it is 400 in a country of, what, 70-80 million?
Germany, with a similar size of population, had 370 homicide victims in 2008, and again as many attempted murders. Also, 97.6% of the cases were solved.
I guess I'm not used to murder rates in countries without guns. Even still, Turkey doesn't seem to be as developed as Germany, their murder rate should be many times that of Germany.
Wiki's list of countries by murder rate has Turkey's at a bit higher than the USA, at 6.23 per 100k, which would give them about 4500 per year, if it's correct.
I was told that their recent pro-religious laws are in fact, -despite all signs pointing to the opposite- liberal policies supported by an overwhelmingly liberal Turkey.
So do not worry. :)
There were 759 murders/manslaughters in Poland in 2008. The population is 38 million. That's almost exactly 2 per 100k.
Quote from: Syt on February 05, 2010, 01:43:27 AM
Quote from: DGuller on February 04, 2010, 06:05:19 PM
I call BS on the murder figure. No fucking way it is 400 in a country of, what, 70-80 million?
Germany, with a similar size of population, had 370 homicide victims in 2008, and again as many attempted murders. Also, 97.6% of the cases were solved.
That fits well with Derrick and Der Alte efficiency :)
Quote from: HVC on February 04, 2010, 05:58:42 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2010, 05:58:15 PM
Also we let the bloody Greeks in. I'd take Turkey over Greece any day.
Great minds! :lol:
No honour killings and no islamist governement in Greece though :D
Everybody has his own priorities I guess ;)
I checked the wiki page and it seems it is ever lower for Poland, i.e. about 1.3 in 2008. It's amazing we went down from 5.6 in 2000. I guess all our murderers went to the UK. :bowler:
Quote from: Martinus on February 05, 2010, 03:02:02 AM
I checked the wiki page and it seems it is ever lower for Poland, i.e. about 1.3 in 2008. It's amazing we went down from 5.6 in 2000. I guess all our murderers went to the UK. :bowler:
You can stop jerking on the Polish flag, you know your country will collapse eventually. It IS Poland.
Quote from: Martim Silva on February 04, 2010, 07:36:07 PM
2. I'm divided on the issue, because rejecting Turkey would be the same as saying that Constantinople is not European (and giving up Cappadocia and Bythinia, for that matter), and that is really not accceptable.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fe%2Fea%2FSiege_of_Constantinople.jpg&hash=274b50a99903538c05bd1155d86eb232ed14588e)
Lets we forget! :ph34r:
Don't be ridiculous.
Quote from: Tamas on February 05, 2010, 03:07:52 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 05, 2010, 03:02:02 AM
I checked the wiki page and it seems it is ever lower for Poland, i.e. about 1.3 in 2008. It's amazing we went down from 5.6 in 2000. I guess all our murderers went to the UK. :bowler:
You can stop jerking on the Polish flag, you know your country will collapse eventually. It IS Poland.
Historical analogy would lead us to believe that Hungary will collapse first, thought.
:nelson:
Quote from: HVC on February 04, 2010, 05:58:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2010, 05:41:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
Turkey only has 400 murders a year?
That can't be true, surely?
Letting Turkey in is right because they deserve it once they've made some more of the necessary changes to solidify their democracy. On the other hand we should kick out the Cypriots.
Edit: And the Baltics and Romania and Bulgaria.
Once you let in greece it became hard to keep turkey out. They're the same, excpet the turks are less annoying.
Quite right! I've been to Turkey and Greece several times, and they really
are the same, except the Turks
are less annoying. In Greece people would often talk to you about their dislike of Turks and of Jews (one time the guy running our hotel said Hitler might've been on to something). I was in Turkey during Greece's victory of the European Championship, and most turks didn't seem to care when I talked to them about it. Turks are generally more chilled out than Greeks, especially Turks from the western coastal areas. And if you talk to them they'll tell you most Turks who emigrate to Europe are poor peasants from rural areas who've practically never been to a city and give Turks a bad name.
Quote from: Pat on February 05, 2010, 07:11:33 AM
And if you talk to them they'll tell you most Turks who emigrate to Europe are poor peasants from rural areas who've practically never been to a city and give Turks a bad name.
Colleagues of mine from Istanbul have repeatedly said they were quite ashamed of their compatriots over here. As one said, "country hicks" come to civilization.
Quote from: patQuite right! I've been to Turkey and Greece several times, and they really are the same, except the Turks are less annoying. In Greece people would often talk to you about their dislike of Turks and of Jews (one time the guy running our hotel said Hitler might've been on to something). I was in Turkey during Greece's victory of the European Championship, and most turks didn't seem to care when I talked to them about it. Turks are generally more chilled out than Greeks, especially Turks from the western coastal areas. And if you talk to them they'll tell you most Turks who emigrate to Europe are poor peasants from rural areas who've practically never been to a city and give Turks a bad name.
Just don't dare mention Kurdistan to them.
Even in a non-independance supporting purely descriptive name for the region sense.
They get.... :ph34r:
Quote from: The Larch on February 05, 2010, 06:11:11 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fe%2Fea%2FSiege_oonstantinople.jpg&hash=694cd32be868a9139d54864cc038ce21071efb57)
Lets we forget! :ph34r:
Don't be ridiculous.
I'm a bit uncomfortable with letting the Turks in now...those guys a are freaking huge.
Oh, I assure you I always tip-toe around that subject :lol:
My father once joked with the local turkish pizza-baker he should make the pizza extra good, as he was giving it to Öcalan. His reply? "I'll spit in your pizza." :lol:
Quote from: Pat on February 05, 2010, 07:11:33 AM
Quite right! I've been to Turkey and Greece several times, and they really are the same, except the Turks are less annoying. In Greece people would often talk to you about their dislike of Turks and of Jews (one time the guy running our hotel said Hitler might've been on to something). I was in Turkey during Greece's victory of the European Championship, and most turks didn't seem to care when I talked to them about it. Turks are generally more chilled out than Greeks, especially Turks from the western coastal areas. And if you talk to them they'll tell you most Turks who emigrate to Europe are poor peasants from rural areas who've practically never been to a city and give Turks a bad name.
For some reason, the Greeks abroad do not engage in Turkish immigrant-like shenanigans so colour me skeptical.
They are more like Italians or even Spaniards.
Just disgusting on so many levels. For one, to kill someone for some of the reasons stated by those who follow such customs. Then for a family to kill their own, especially for parents, and other male relatives, to be able to do this. Just barbaric. How do loving parents and a community conspire to kill kids, young girls usually? Do they actually feel good about themselves after? One would think that long ago this kind of thing would have become repulsive to them, no matter their beliefs.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 05, 2010, 09:20:49 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 05, 2010, 07:11:33 AM
Quite right! I've been to Turkey and Greece several times, and they really are the same, except the Turks are less annoying. In Greece people would often talk to you about their dislike of Turks and of Jews (one time the guy running our hotel said Hitler might've been on to something). I was in Turkey during Greece's victory of the European Championship, and most turks didn't seem to care when I talked to them about it. Turks are generally more chilled out than Greeks, especially Turks from the western coastal areas. And if you talk to them they'll tell you most Turks who emigrate to Europe are poor peasants from rural areas who've practically never been to a city and give Turks a bad name.
For some reason, the Greeks abroad do not engage in Turkish immigrant-like shenanigans so colour me skeptical.
They are more like Italians or even Spaniards.
Turks from the western coastal areas are like Italians or Spaniards too. Though the same can not be said of those from rural areas in eastern Turkey.
What exactly are the expected benefits of Turkey's entry into the EU? I mean aside from cheap labor?
G.
Quote from: Pat on February 05, 2010, 09:40:52 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 05, 2010, 09:20:49 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 05, 2010, 07:11:33 AM
Quite right! I've been to Turkey and Greece several times, and they really are the same, except the Turks are less annoying. In Greece people would often talk to you about their dislike of Turks and of Jews (one time the guy running our hotel said Hitler might've been on to something). I was in Turkey during Greece's victory of the European Championship, and most turks didn't seem to care when I talked to them about it. Turks are generally more chilled out than Greeks, especially Turks from the western coastal areas. And if you talk to them they'll tell you most Turks who emigrate to Europe are poor peasants from rural areas who've practically never been to a city and give Turks a bad name.
For some reason, the Greeks abroad do not engage in Turkish immigrant-like shenanigans so colour me skeptical.
They are more like Italians or even Spaniards.
Turks from the western coastal areas are like Italians or Spaniards too. Though the same can not be said of those from rural areas in eastern Turkey.
Unless you count the ladino speaking ones, I still don't see them like Italians or Spaniards, cultures are not alike. I'll grant you they are somewhat westernised though.
Quote from: Grallon on February 05, 2010, 09:51:51 AM
What exactly are the expected benefits of Turkey's entry into the EU? I mean aside from cheap labor?
G.
Solidifying the democratic institutions of Turkey.
Strengthening Turkey as an object for investment and as a market for Europeans.
Reducing the immigration pressure from Turkey by providing opportunities for Turks in Turkey.
Strengthening the position of the Universalist Humanist Philosophy of Europe.
Strengthening peace and stability in all of europe.
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 05, 2010, 10:53:36 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 05, 2010, 09:40:52 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on February 05, 2010, 09:20:49 AM
Quote from: Pat on February 05, 2010, 07:11:33 AM
Quite right! I've been to Turkey and Greece several times, and they really are the same, except the Turks are less annoying. In Greece people would often talk to you about their dislike of Turks and of Jews (one time the guy running our hotel said Hitler might've been on to something). I was in Turkey during Greece's victory of the European Championship, and most turks didn't seem to care when I talked to them about it. Turks are generally more chilled out than Greeks, especially Turks from the western coastal areas. And if you talk to them they'll tell you most Turks who emigrate to Europe are poor peasants from rural areas who've practically never been to a city and give Turks a bad name.
For some reason, the Greeks abroad do not engage in Turkish immigrant-like shenanigans so colour me skeptical.
They are more like Italians or even Spaniards.
Turks from the western coastal areas are like Italians or Spaniards too. Though the same can not be said of those from rural areas in eastern Turkey.
Unless you count the ladino speaking ones, I still don't see them like Italians or Spaniards, cultures are not alike. I'll grant you they are somewhat westernised though.
I'd say the culture is more mediterranean than anything else. A place like Antalya or Izmir feels no less western than any spanish or italian city. It's certainly not in the arab or muslim cultural sphere.
The big thing I see against Turkey in the EU is the massive border that would give the EU.
Its easy to control the current border with Turkey but the Turkish border...well we'd have loads of Arabs and Iranians and Afghans (via Iran) storming over and getting right into the EU.
I still support Turkish entry of course (though it would be better with a independant Kurdistan first) but thats the main valid argument.
Quote from: Viking on February 05, 2010, 11:04:26 AM
Quote from: Grallon on February 05, 2010, 09:51:51 AM
What exactly are the expected benefits of Turkey's entry into the EU? I mean aside from cheap labor?
G.
Solidifying the democratic institutions of Turkey.
Strengthening Turkey as an object for investment and as a market for Europeans.
Reducing the immigration pressure from Turkey by providing opportunities for Turks in Turkey.
Strengthening the position of the Universalist Humanist Philosophy of Europe.
Strengthening peace and stability in all of europe.
:lol:
Quote from: Pat on February 05, 2010, 11:31:30 AM
I'd say the culture is more mediterranean than anything else. A place like Antalya or Izmir feels no less western than any spanish or italian city. It's certainly not in the arab or muslim cultural sphere.
Somehow I don't see the traditional aggressiveness of Italian males working that well in a Muslim country, whatever moderate.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on February 05, 2010, 01:59:25 AM
Wiki's list of countries by murder rate has Turkey's at a bit higher than the USA, at 6.23 per 100k, which would give them about 4500 per year, if it's correct.
I'm getting curious here - am I on some people's ignore list so my posts don't show up? :glare:
As for letting Turkey into the EU? It should be done for the best reason possible...it will upset the French. :)
Quote from: Tyr on February 05, 2010, 11:43:28 AM
well we'd have loads of Arabs and Iranians and Afghans (via Iran) storming over and getting right into the EU.
As opposed to...?
Quote from: Grallon on February 05, 2010, 09:51:51 AM
What exactly are the expected benefits of Turkey's entry into the EU? I mean aside from cheap labor?
Your annoyance alone would make it worth it.
Quote from: Tyr on February 05, 2010, 11:43:28 AM
The big thing I see against Turkey in the EU is the massive border that would give the EU.
Its easy to control the current border with Turkey but the Turkish border...well we'd have loads of Arabs and Iranians and Afghans (via Iran) storming over and getting right into the EU.
I still support Turkish entry of course (though it would be better with a independant Kurdistan first) but thats the main valid argument.
Pfft, that argument doesn't hold any water. Most illegal inmigration come through airports, not by sneaking through the land borders at night, commando infiltration-wise. And there are still entire boatloads of africans, pakistanis and others coming to the shores of Greece, Italy and Spain anyway.
Quote from: The Larch on February 05, 2010, 05:41:14 PMMost illegal inmigration come through airports, not by sneaking through the land borders at night, commando infiltration-wise.
How does that work? Don't you need papers and whatnot at customs when you get off the plane? I imagine most illegal immigrants enter the EU by crossing the eastern border and from smugglers in the Med.
Quote from: citizen k on February 05, 2010, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 05, 2010, 05:41:14 PMMost illegal inmigration come through airports, not by sneaking through the land borders at night, commando infiltration-wise.
How does that work? Don't you need papers and whatnot at customs when you get off the plane? I imagine most illegal immigrants enter the EU by crossing the eastern border and from smugglers in the Med.
At least in Spain, the main way of inmigrating illegally is over staying a tourist visa, and number wise the main entrance of illegal inmigrants is Barajas airport in Madrid. Of course there's traficking too, mostly with Africans.
Quote from: The Larch on February 05, 2010, 08:51:35 PM... the main way of inmigrating illegally is over staying a tourist visa,
Ah. Most illegal immigration in the U.S. is due to migrant workers.
Quote from: citizen k on February 05, 2010, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 05, 2010, 08:51:35 PM... the main way of inmigrating illegally is over staying a tourist visa,
Ah. Most illegal immigration in the U.S. is due to migrant workers.
Not really. In 2006 45% of illegal immigration was due to overstaying a visa.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5485917
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2010, 05:58:15 PM
Also we let the bloody Greeks in. I'd take Turkey over Greece any day.
Why?
Quote from: HVC on February 04, 2010, 05:58:21 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on February 04, 2010, 05:41:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on February 04, 2010, 04:56:36 PM
Turkey only has 400 murders a year?
That can't be true, surely?
Letting Turkey in is right because they deserve it once they've made some more of the necessary changes to solidify their democracy. On the other hand we should kick out the Cypriots.
Edit: And the Baltics and Romania and Bulgaria.
Once you let in greece it became hard to keep turkey out. They're the same, excpet the turks are less annoying.
So true. I traveled from Athens to Istanbul by train, and after spending a few days in both cities, I was struck by just how similar they were; even the scams they tried to pull on me were the same :D
Quote from: ulmont on February 05, 2010, 09:40:48 PM
Quote from: citizen k on February 05, 2010, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 05, 2010, 08:51:35 PM... the main way of inmigrating illegally is over staying a tourist visa,
Ah. Most illegal immigration in the U.S. is due to migrant workers.
Not really. In 2006 45% of illegal immigration was due to overstaying a visa.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5485917 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5485917)
I still think migrant workers are the lion's share of those numbers.
Quote from: citizen k on February 06, 2010, 02:50:31 PM
Quote from: ulmont on February 05, 2010, 09:40:48 PM
Quote from: citizen k on February 05, 2010, 09:38:23 PM
Quote from: The Larch on February 05, 2010, 08:51:35 PM... the main way of inmigrating illegally is over staying a tourist visa,
Ah. Most illegal immigration in the U.S. is due to migrant workers.
Not really. In 2006 45% of illegal immigration was due to overstaying a visa.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5485917 (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5485917)
I still think migrant workers are the lion's share of those numbers.
I think you are right, and I am not sure what ulmont was thinking. If you are correct, we would see exactly the numbers he is reporting as evidence that you are not correct. :hmm:
Quote from: grumbler on February 06, 2010, 05:21:33 PMI think you are right, and I am not sure what ulmont was thinking.
I'm thinking migrant workers tend more to cross the border illegally from the beginning than overstay a visa.
Quote from: ulmont on February 06, 2010, 05:51:37 PM
I'm thinking migrant workers tend more to cross the border illegally from the beginning than overstay a visa.
I'm thinking that's correct. :cheers:
Quote from: citizen k on February 06, 2010, 06:51:41 PM
Quote from: ulmont on February 06, 2010, 05:51:37 PM
I'm thinking migrant workers tend more to cross the border illegally from the beginning than overstay a visa.
I'm thinking that's correct. :cheers:
I'm also thinking that there's something other than "overstaying a visa" and "migrant labor" to account for some of the remaining 55% that is not overstaying a visa, which would make "overstaying a visa" the #1 cause of illegal immigration in the US.
Quote from: ulmont on February 06, 2010, 06:53:29 PM
Quote from: citizen k on February 06, 2010, 06:51:41 PM
Quote from: ulmont on February 06, 2010, 05:51:37 PM
I'm thinking migrant workers tend more to cross the border illegally from the beginning than overstay a visa.
I'm thinking that's correct. :cheers:
I'm also thinking that there's something other than "overstaying a visa" and "migrant labor" to account for some of the remaining 55% that is not overstaying a visa, which would make "overstaying a visa" the #1 cause of illegal immigration in the US.
That would be the clandestine border crossing part.
Quote from: citizen k on February 06, 2010, 09:51:28 PM
Are blood feuds considered to be honor killings?
No, although that's a similar disorder.
Yeah, there is a difference there.
For example:
Person X kills person Y. Family of person Y goes to beat the shit out of the family of person X: blood feud, only encountered in barbaric countries.
Person X (who happens to be a cop) kills person Y. Thousands of people who never met Y go to beat the shit out of the police, the Man and any innocent bystanders, looting and blowing shit up for miles on end: riot, encountered in advanced and democratic countries (Greece, US).
Quote from: Martinus on February 07, 2010, 04:12:23 AM
Yeah, there is a difference there.
For example:
Person X kills person Y. Family of person Y goes to beat the shit out of the family of person X: blood feud, only encountered in barbaric countries.
Person X (who happens to be a cop) kills person Y. Thousands of people who never met Y go to beat the shit out of the police, the Man and any innocent bystanders, looting and blowing shit up for miles on end: riot, encountered in advanced and democratic countries (Greece, US).
There are more options, though. For instance:
Person X (who happens to be a moron, like his countrymen) kills person Y. Family of person Y goes on rampage to beat the shit out of any Jews they can find; encountered in typical central European countries (Germany, Poland).
Quote from: grumbler on February 07, 2010, 11:23:07 AM
Quote from: Martinus on February 07, 2010, 04:12:23 AM
Yeah, there is a difference there.
For example:
Person X kills person Y. Family of person Y goes to beat the shit out of the family of person X: blood feud, only encountered in barbaric countries.
Person X (who happens to be a cop) kills person Y. Thousands of people who never met Y go to beat the shit out of the police, the Man and any innocent bystanders, looting and blowing shit up for miles on end: riot, encountered in advanced and democratic countries (Greece, US).
There are more options, though. For instance:
Person X (who happens to be a moron, like his countrymen) kills person Y. Family of person Y goes on rampage to beat the shit out of any Jews they can find; encountered in typical central European countries (Germany, Poland).
Hey, you could give your students this exercise: choose one of the above three that does not fit in with the other two.
Hint: the one that hasn't happened in the last 10 (or 20, or 30) years.
Quote from: Martinus on February 07, 2010, 03:37:09 PM
Hey, you could give your students this exercise: choose one of the above three that does not fit in with the other two.
Hint: the one that hasn't happened in the last 10 (or 20, or 30) years.
Yes, once you killed em all it became a bit harder.
I think the second one is the different one, it involves thousands of people, not just the family.
Quote from: Iormlund on February 05, 2010, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: Pat on February 05, 2010, 11:31:30 AM
I'd say the culture is more mediterranean than anything else. A place like Antalya or Izmir feels no less western than any spanish or italian city. It's certainly not in the arab or muslim cultural sphere.
Somehow I don't see the traditional aggressiveness of Italian males working that well in a Muslim country, whatever moderate.
North Africa also has that mediterranean element yet it's also arab and/or berber and muslim so I am not convinced cf. Morocco which had colonisation-era influences from the likes of Spain, Portugal and France. They applied for the EU as well...
In a different way, I was also about to ask about the quality of chorizo/chouriço and prosciutto/ham. ;)