Just got done reading this:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2009/03/the-worst-airli.php
little snippit:
QuoteAn American woman approached the manager in tears and told him her son had just died and that she needed to get to Chicago for his funeral. Would he please just rebook her on another airline?
"No," he said.
And then the crowd lost it.
Crazy.
Wow. Note to self: avoid Italy at all costs.
Alitalia :bleeding:
Quote from: vinraith on March 30, 2009, 08:01:35 PM
Wow. Note to self: avoid Italy at all costs.
Avoid Alitalia, at least. We just had a group of students come back from a spring break trip to Italy (run by the Latin teacher) and they had a great time. Some railroad issues, but that's pretty common everywhere.
UA is pretty bad in my books. Asian airlines typically have much better service than North American airlines. UA, which has a lot of operations in Asia, does very badly comparatively.
First thing. Their check in counters. Most Asian airlines check in all customers manually. UA insists that customers use check in machines. That's fine, except that their machines never work. I mean NEVER. Every time we try to let the machine scan our passports, the procedure goes in loops. Scan passport, press enter, asks us to scan our passport again. My guess is the machine is probably designed for customers to insert their credit cards - but what UA doesn't know is that most Asians don't use credit cards to pay for their air fares.
Second, their error rates. I once gave them a ticket, and they told me they couldn't find me in the system. The reaction of their staff was to ask me to stand aside, while they processed other customers. What about me? Dunno, don't care. Not until my wife made a huge fuss did their manager try to find out what went wrong, otherwise they would just let us stand there forever. Our ticket was from Saigon to Hong Kong. Somehow their system thought it was from Singapore to HK.
Another time, we boarded a UA flight in HK. Just before take off some alarm sounded, and it had to be worked on. I mean, I seldom fly UA, but somehow, every time I do so, something very unpleasant pops up. I doubt it is just bad luck.
Good God these people were had a ton of patience.
Good read. Some of the comments are fun too, like the guy that goes off about neocons.
I rode Italian trains and had zero problems. Only time I ran into any staff-first/customer-second attitude was at museums and attractions, where the hours always seemed to be open: 9Am to 12 noon, closed for lunch noon to 3:45, open 3:45 to 4:30.
:huh:
QuoteThree police officers arrived to calm down the crowd. The most enraged of the African men picked up one of the officers, slung the cop over his shoulder, and took him away.
Here we go, I thought. This is when it begins.
I thought about lighting a cigarette. Rules no longer applied. I doubted anyone would say anything, and I doubted even more that anyone would make me put it out. I was pretty sure that if I lit a cigarette, other people would light up cigarettes, too. It actually seemed slightly dangerous, though. The mood in the terminal might have shifted yet one more degree toward total breakdown. A cop had already been taken away to God-knows-where by an unruly passenger, and the other two officers didn't do anything. I kept my cigarettes in my pocket.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 30, 2009, 08:59:04 PM
Good read. Some of the comments are fun too, like the guy that goes off about neocons.
That was a gal. Not that it matters.
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2009, 09:11:56 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 30, 2009, 08:59:04 PM
Good read. Some of the comments are fun too, like the guy that goes off about neocons.
That was a gal. Not that it matters.
Male, female. All third-world lunatics and their supporters are equally worthless.
I flew Alitalia years ago without issue. Despite the large number of Italians I dnd't have any issues in Italy except for prices mysteriously spiking up at the tourist traps somehwere between ordering and the check arriving.
If I had been there, so of those motherfuckers who "work" for the airline would be dead.
How about Aeroflot and Cubanair? :x
Well I'm off to Italy in May, using Swissair to get there though :D
Italy is a wonderful country to visit, but the public sector there is sprawling and mind-bogglingly corrupt and incompetent. I think that is why so few British people have moved there to live (unlike Spain or France) despite it's obvious attractions.
Quote from: Drakken on March 31, 2009, 12:18:46 AM
How about Aeroflot and Cubanair? :x
I didn't have any problems with Aeroflot, even the Ukraine Intl flight where they had to put tape on the doors to keep them closed was preferable to getting things done in Italy.
I flew with Turkmenistan Airlines once. The seats of the Tu-154 weren't really screwed to the floor and the one toilet in the middle of the plane was clogged and kept spilling water onto the floor whenever the plane banked. It smelled like water, luckily.
Quote from: grumbler on March 30, 2009, 08:14:49 PM
Quote from: vinraith on March 30, 2009, 08:01:35 PM
Wow. Note to self: avoid Italy at all costs.
Avoid Alitalia, at least. We just had a group of students come back from a spring break trip to Italy (run by the Latin teacher) and they had a great time. Some railroad issues, but that's pretty common everywhere.
Fair enough. It just seems like an uncomfortably large percentage of the travel horror stories I've heard specifically involve Italy.
The original piece is really funny :D
I am not sure what I would do if I was stranded in an airport like that though.
I was once almost stranded in Nanjing. It snowed heavily that day. Dragonair staff said our flight was cancelled, and they had booked a hotel room for us. I asked how come China Eastern was still flying. There was no answer. I was so desperate that I just queued up at China Eastern, armed with my Dragonair ticket. The China Eastern staff took my ticket, and gave me a China Eastern boarding pass without saying a single word. Kudos to their brave pilots and crew for daring to take off in heavy snow.
I was lucky, as the snow persisted for weeks. If I took up the Dragonair free hotel offer, I would be stuck in Nanjing for a long time <_<
To be honest, if I were traveling to some place in Northern Italy easily accessible by train from France, Germany or Austria, I'd much rather fly to one of these countries and take the rest of the trip by train. Italian airports are notorious for luggage thefts and strikes.
When I was a kid and living in Moscow & Kiev (around the time it went from being the USSR to Russia) I flew domestic Aeroflot lines a few times.
From Kiev to Simferopol, the pilots had hookers with them and downed a bit under 1L of vodka each. After landingm they ran off and left us in the MIDDLE of the tarmac, with no directions.
From Moscow to Iekaterinburg, my father and I were given an unwashed, unpeeled, uncut cucumber to share for dinner.
I could list more stuff, but I'd take too long.
Kevin
Quote from: Eochaid on March 31, 2009, 05:06:35 AM
From Kiev to Simferopol, the pilots had hookers with them and downed a bit under 1L of vodka each. After landingm they ran off and left us in the MIDDLE of the tarmac, with no directions.
:blink:
Quote from: Eochaid on March 31, 2009, 05:06:35 AMFrom Moscow to Iekaterinburg, my father and I were given an unwashed, unpeeled, uncut cucumber to share for dinner.
:lol:
Quote from: Eochaid on March 31, 2009, 05:06:35 AM
From Kiev to Simferopol, the pilots had hookers with them and downed a bit under 1L of vodka each. After landingm they ran off and left us in the MIDDLE of the tarmac, with no directions.
:yes:
Simferopol airport is hilarious :lol:
Quote from: Eochaid on March 31, 2009, 05:06:35 AM
When I was a kid and living in Moscow & Kiev (around the time it went from being the USSR to Russia) I flew domestic Aeroflot lines a few times.
From Kiev to Simferopol, the pilots had hookers with them and downed a bit under 1L of vodka each. After landingm they ran off and left us in the MIDDLE of the tarmac, with no directions.
From Moscow to Iekaterinburg, my father and I were given an unwashed, unpeeled, uncut cucumber to share for dinner.
I could list more stuff, but I'd take too long.
Kevin
At least the pilots didn't let a child fly the plain into the mountain, unlike... oh, crap.
Quote from: vinraith on March 30, 2009, 08:01:35 PM
Wow. Note to self: avoid Italy at all costs.
Milan was fun. But then again, my interaction with Italian government and transportation workers was limited.
Quote from: Eochaid on March 31, 2009, 05:06:35 AM
From Kiev to Simferopol, the pilots had hookers with them and downed a bit under 1L of vodka each.
Best airline ever. But they should have shared with the passengers.
Quote from: DGuller on March 31, 2009, 08:35:05 AM
Quote from: Eochaid on March 31, 2009, 05:06:35 AM
When I was a kid and living in Moscow & Kiev (around the time it went from being the USSR to Russia) I flew domestic Aeroflot lines a few times.
From Kiev to Simferopol, the pilots had hookers with them and downed a bit under 1L of vodka each. After landingm they ran off and left us in the MIDDLE of the tarmac, with no directions.
From Moscow to Iekaterinburg, my father and I were given an unwashed, unpeeled, uncut cucumber to share for dinner.
I could list more stuff, but I'd take too long.
Kevin
At least the pilots didn't let a child fly the plain into the mountain, unlike... oh, crap.
Heh, they had an episode of
Seconds from Disaster on that incident. Unbelievable.
Quote from: Martinus on March 31, 2009, 04:57:39 AM
To be honest, if I were traveling to some place in Northern Italy easily accessible by train from France, Germany or Austria, I'd much rather fly to one of these countries and take the rest of the trip by train. Italian airports are notorious for luggage thefts and strikes.
Never experienced that, but Fiumicino (Rome's airport) is the crappiest, filthiest airport I've ever been in. It reminded me of a crappy Green Line T station in Boston. :x
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 09:03:45 AMHeh, they had an episode of Seconds from Disaster on that incident. Unbelievable.
:yes: Biggest airline EPIC FAIL in history.
Quote from: Caliga on March 31, 2009, 09:10:37 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 09:03:45 AMHeh, they had an episode of Seconds from Disaster on that incident. Unbelievable.
:yes: Biggest airline EPIC FAIL in history.
In a funny-but-sad way, the recreation of the investigators when they figured out what had happened was hilarious.
"The kid ... was flying the plane!"
Crappiest airline experience? I've been reasonably lucky in terms of service - even when things screwed up, usually I've been able to find someone to help. But in terms of sheer terror, nothing beats flying inside China in the late '80s.
The airplane was a rusting horror. I looked out the window and you could see that there were rivets missing and streaks of rust ... worse, it was a prop plane with Russian writing on the wings - and the Chinese and Russians haven't been friends for a very long time.
The seats had seat-belts, but they were purely ceremonial. They simply tied to the seats, and the seats were not bolted to the floor ...
We arrived safely, but I heard later that several planes had in fact gone down on that route in the past year.
I was on a Comair flight from Atlanta to Gainesville, FL once and I could actually see engine oil leaking out of one of the turboprop engines for the duration of the flight. :Embarrass:
Skybus, in addition to flying Airbus planes (is the tail going to fall off this one?), nickled and dimed you to death with fees.
Quote from: Caliga on March 31, 2009, 09:10:37 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 09:03:45 AMHeh, they had an episode of Seconds from Disaster on that incident. Unbelievable.
:yes: Biggest airline EPIC FAIL in history.
What is this?
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on March 31, 2009, 09:35:09 AM
Quote from: Caliga on March 31, 2009, 09:10:37 AM
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 09:03:45 AMHeh, they had an episode of Seconds from Disaster on that incident. Unbelievable.
:yes: Biggest airline EPIC FAIL in history.
What is this?
Basically, Russian pilot has his kids along on a flight, thinks it would be a fun idea to have the kid fly the plane for a bit. Seats him in the pilot seat and lets him play with the controls, figuring that nothing could go wrong as the plane was on autopilot.
What the pilot doesn't know is that fiddling with the controls makes the autopilot think that it should disengage from those controls. So the kid ends up actually flying the plane, into a steep nosedive. The g-forces prevent the pilot from actually getting to the controls in time, and the plane flies straight into the ground, killing everyone on board (there was more to it, but this was basically the story).
The investigators find the corpse of the kid in the pilot's seat, and think he was just flung there in the wreck. Until they find the flight recorder and realize that the
kid was flying the damn plane.
And here's a Wiki article on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
Quote from: DGuller on March 31, 2009, 10:04:45 AM
And here's a Wiki article on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
According to the show, the manufacturers bore some of the blame for having an autopilot disengage feature without a warning sounding.
Naturally, the lion's share goes to the pilot who puts his kid in the control seat during flight and lets him play with the controls.
I'm off to Italy, but flying Condor Air and driving from Frankfurt.
Sounds like a better option than flying Alitalia. :)
Alitalia's got a dreadful reputation. The only time I've flown with them they've been pretty good though.
Ryanair on the other hand :shudder: :weep: :bleeding:
Yes, Easyjet is "cheap and cheerful", Ryanair is cheap :huh:
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 10:12:04 AMAccording to the show, the manufacturers bore some of the blame for having an autopilot disengage feature without a warning sounding.
Naturally, the lion's share goes to the pilot who puts his kid in the control seat during flight and lets him play with the controls.
Even I know that using manual controls automatically disengages autopilot... and I learned that from Microsoft Flight Simulator 95.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on March 31, 2009, 12:29:16 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 10:12:04 AMAccording to the show, the manufacturers bore some of the blame for having an autopilot disengage feature without a warning sounding.
Naturally, the lion's share goes to the pilot who puts his kid in the control seat during flight and lets him play with the controls.
Even I know that using manual controls automatically disengages autopilot... and I learned that from Microsoft Flight Simulator 95.
I think the problem was that previous models *did* sound a warning. Thus, while the pilots were obviously criminally irresponsible to put a kid in the pilot seat (and paid for it with their lives, and the lives of everyone on board), the thought was that if the manufacturer changed this feature, they should have specifically warned people about it - all that lets the user know that the autopilot disengaged was an indicator light which no-one noticed.
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 12:33:15 PM
I think the problem was that previous models *did* sound a warning. Thus, while the pilots were obviously criminally irresponsible to put a kid in the pilot seat (and paid for it with their lives, and the lives of everyone on board), the thought was that if the manufacturer changed this feature, they should have specifically warned people about it - all that lets the user know that the autopilot disengaged was an indicator light which no-one noticed.
I am not sure that the manufacturer had changed policies or if the pilots simply had changed aircraft from one with an audible alarm. The autopilot, in this case, was still engaged (though controlling fewer functions).
One of the items not mentioned is that the pilot decided, before taking control of the wildly banking aircraft, to leave the co-pilot's seat, let the co-pilot sit down, and then take his own (the Pilot's) seat. Had he simply taken over control of the aircraft from the co-pilot's seat, this accident would not have happened. It just goes to show, though, how confused people can get: before he got any further into the incident, the pilot wanted the crew in their proper places. That was more important to him than actually regaining control of the aircraft.
Bottom line: poor crew training, and poor decision making. The argument that the manufacturer is somehow responsible, when no other aircraft were even endangered (insofar as i can find out from googling) by the lack of audible alarms, is untenable, in my opinion.
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 12:33:15 PM
I think the problem was that previous models *did* sound a warning. Thus, while the pilots were obviously criminally irresponsible to put a kid in the pilot seat (and paid for it with their lives, and the lives of everyone on board), the thought was that if the manufacturer changed this feature, they should have specifically warned people about it - all that lets the user know that the autopilot disengaged was an indicator light which no-one noticed.
It's not that the alarm didn't make it into the new version of the plane, it's just that the pilots were flying an Airbus plane, while typically they were used to Tupolev planes that had the alarms. Not only was the unusual lack of alarm fatal, but so was their lack of familiarity with how autopilot worked and disengaged, or that their plane had an automatic recovery system that they were counter-acting while attempting to manually pull out. All those factors contributed to the crash.
Quote from: grumbler on March 31, 2009, 12:59:27 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 12:33:15 PM
I think the problem was that previous models *did* sound a warning. Thus, while the pilots were obviously criminally irresponsible to put a kid in the pilot seat (and paid for it with their lives, and the lives of everyone on board), the thought was that if the manufacturer changed this feature, they should have specifically warned people about it - all that lets the user know that the autopilot disengaged was an indicator light which no-one noticed.
I am not sure that the manufacturer had changed policies or if the pilots simply had changed aircraft from one with an audible alarm. The autopilot, in this case, was still engaged (though controlling fewer functions).
One of the items not mentioned is that the pilot decided, before taking control of the wildly banking aircraft, to leave the co-pilot's seat, let the co-pilot sit down, and then take his own (the Pilot's) seat. Had he simply taken over control of the aircraft from the co-pilot's seat, this accident would not have happened. It just goes to show, though, how confused people can get: before he got any further into the incident, the pilot wanted the crew in their proper places. That was more important to him than actually regaining control of the aircraft.
Bottom line: poor crew training, and poor decision making. The argument that the manufacturer is somehow responsible, when no other aircraft were even endangered (insofar as i can find out from googling) by the lack of audible alarms, is untenable, in my opinion.
I don't think anyone is arguing that the manufacturer was responsible - obviously the overwhelming cause was pilot error, no question. The notion (granted from no better source than a TV show) was that the investigating body came to the conclusion that the lack of an audible warning was a contributing factor.
That's my recollection from the show, and it could very easily be at fault - I certainly haven't researched the matter.
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 01:51:29 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing that the manufacturer was responsible.
Forseeability!
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on March 31, 2009, 03:23:39 PM
Quote from: Malthus on March 31, 2009, 01:51:29 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing that the manufacturer was responsible.
Forseeability!
You mean a feckless Russian pilot letting his kid fly the plane wasn't reasonably foreseeable?
It is now. :lol:
Quote from: Caliga on March 31, 2009, 09:10:01 AM
Never experienced that, but Fiumicino (Rome's airport) is the crappiest, filthiest airport I've ever been in. It reminded me of a crappy Green Line T station in Boston. :x
The green line has character. :contract:
I didn't have any trouble with Fiumicino. Whereas I literally saw crap on the wall at Charles de Gaulle.
Quote from: grumbler on March 31, 2009, 12:59:27 PMI am not sure that the manufacturer had changed policies or if the pilots simply had changed aircraft from one with an audible alarm. The autopilot, in this case, was still engaged (though controlling fewer functions).
One of the items not mentioned is that the pilot decided, before taking control of the wildly banking aircraft, to leave the co-pilot's seat, let the co-pilot sit down, and then take his own (the Pilot's) seat. Had he simply taken over control of the aircraft from the co-pilot's seat, this accident would not have happened. It just goes to show, though, how confused people can get: before he got any further into the incident, the pilot wanted the crew in their proper places. That was more important to him than actually regaining control of the aircraft.
Bottom line: poor crew training, and poor decision making. The argument that the manufacturer is somehow responsible, when no other aircraft were even endangered (insofar as i can find out from googling) by the lack of audible alarms, is untenable, in my opinion.
:yes: It was a crewed aircraft, and nobody was paying attention to the cruise control? Do you hand the car's steering wheel over to the front-seat passenger, look away, and eat a sandwich? Another thing I learned from Flight Simulator was this: total autopilot is the stuff of video games (at the time, the 747's was one of the closest things we had to it); yaw and trim adjustments still have to be made constantly.
Are there flight sims with carrier deck landings? I'm curious if it really is as tough as all that.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 31, 2009, 04:18:42 PM
Are there flight sims with carrier deck landings? I'm curious if it really is as tough as all that.
Pacific Fighters had it and carrier landings were fucking brutal in that.
Quote from: Habbaku on March 31, 2009, 04:24:47 PM
Pacific Fighters had it and carrier landings were fucking brutal in that.
Break it down for me. How many crackups before your first successful landing?
Quote from: DontSayBanana on March 31, 2009, 04:16:27 PM
:yes: It was a crewed aircraft, and nobody was paying attention to the cruise control? Do you hand the car's steering wheel over to the front-seat passenger, look away, and eat a sandwich?
Rather poor analogy, Marty. You can't really get out the driver's seat when the car is in motion, not easily like you can on a plane. You don't really have as much room on the road so the smallest drift will, in a matter of seconds, become a monumental problem. Also, I'm not really sure a front seat passenger is the equivalent of a child. In many cases, passengers sitting in the front seat know how to drive.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 31, 2009, 04:27:18 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on March 31, 2009, 04:24:47 PM
Pacific Fighters had it and carrier landings were fucking brutal in that.
Break it down for me. How many crackups before your first successful landing?
Easily five or six, I forget the exact number. Probably even more. If you went in too fast, you wouldn't catch the brake-wire correctly or even be able to stop before running off of the landing deck. If you went too slow, you'd likely end up toppling the plane the wrong way. You'd still land, but the plane would be totaled.
Fortunately, if you're going too fast, you can basically take off again and loop around for another attempt. Of course, do that often enough and you run out of fuel...
How do the real pilots learn to land on a carrier? I assume in real life you don't have the option of making a mess of it the first few times before getting a hang of it.
Quote from: DGuller on March 31, 2009, 04:38:37 PM
How do the real pilots learn to land on a carrier? I assume in real life you don't have the option of making a mess of it the first few times before getting a hang of it.
I think I saw on the Military Channel that they go first on concrete runways with connector cables and carrier-like lines painted on them.
Quote from: DGuller on March 31, 2009, 04:38:37 PM
How do the real pilots learn to land on a carrier? I assume in real life you don't have the option of making a mess of it the first few times before getting a hang of it.
I always wonder about dentists in that context :huh:
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 31, 2009, 05:29:12 PM
I always wonder about dentists in that context :huh:
Most powerful man in the world and his magic johnson.
Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on March 31, 2009, 05:29:12 PM
I always wonder about dentists in that context :huh:
I once got some cheapo dental work done at the Georgetown U dental school, so I asked my guy how they learned to do that shot in the back of the mouth into the jaw joint. He told me they get a lecture on it, then they pair up and practice on each other. :D
It's easier for me to list the US carriers which are tolerable:
Alaska, Jet Blue, and American
British, Singapore, Thai, and SAS are my favs. :mmm:
Air France was made vast improvements and may soon join the special list.
British Airways flight attendant, in one of my flight: «Please be careful while opening the overhead compartments as sometimes, shift happens...»
Of those I've flown -
Best - Singapore, Cathay, China Eastern (crap service, but they dared to take off during heavy snow to take me home)
Pretty good - Dragonair, ANA, Swissair, Air France, Thai, Quantas, VirginBlue
Ok - Japan airlines, Finair, Canadian (no longer exists),
Crap - UA, AA
From that story, it seems like their procedures are deliberately designed to drive their passengers absolutely insane.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 31, 2009, 08:41:38 PM
From that story, it seems like their procedures are deliberately designed to drive their passengers absolutely insane.
Makes me think of that Onion Video on Franz Kafka Internation Airport. :lol:
Quote from: jimmy olsen on March 31, 2009, 09:17:16 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 31, 2009, 08:41:38 PM
From that story, it seems like their procedures are deliberately designed to drive their passengers absolutely insane.
Makes me think of that Onion Video on Franz Kafka Internation Airport. :lol:
Thats exactly what I thought. Some of the details are Kafkaesque.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 31, 2009, 05:21:05 PM
Quote from: DGuller on March 31, 2009, 04:38:37 PM
How do the real pilots learn to land on a carrier? I assume in real life you don't have the option of making a mess of it the first few times before getting a hang of it.
I think I saw on the Military Channel that they go first on concrete runways with connector cables and carrier-like lines painted on them.
Perhaps they do, but the differences are vast: concrete runways don't yaw, pitch and roll, can't head into the wind, and they don't move forward at 30 knots (which actually reduces the force of the impact) In my opinion, computer simulations (profesional, military simulations) and double seated training aircraft are better tools.
I have flown simulations which included the landing signal officer. Trouble was, he either was crap or hated me with a passion!
The worst I've flown with so far was US Airways. Both time I flew with them they had attrocious ground service.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on March 31, 2009, 04:18:42 PM
Are there flight sims with carrier deck landings? I'm curious if it really is as tough as all that.
Flight Deck 4 - an expansion for Flight Simulator 2004 that included an F/A-18C Hornet, F/A-18E Super Hornet, A-6B Prowler, S-2 Greyhound, S-3 Viking, E-2C Hawkeye, an SH-60 Seahawk, naturally, and of course, the USS Ronald Reagan. Sitting on the desk right next to me. :nerd:
I'm good with the Prowler and the Hawkeye; helicopters are a pain at 3 feet above the ground, no matter what. Jets, I'm not messing with.