Worst Airline in the World?

[Malthus]

I think the problem was that previous models *did* sound a warning. Thus, while the pilots were obviously criminally irresponsible to put a kid in the pilot seat (and paid for it with their lives, and the lives of everyone on board), the thought was that if the manufacturer changed this feature, they should have specifically warned people about it - all that lets the user know that the autopilot disengaged was an indicator light which no-one noticed.

I am not sure that the manufacturer had changed policies or if the pilots simply had changed aircraft from one with an audible alarm.  The autopilot, in this case, was still engaged (though controlling fewer functions). 

One of the items not mentioned is that the pilot decided, before taking control of the wildly banking aircraft, to leave the co-pilot's seat, let the co-pilot sit down, and then take his own (the Pilot's) seat.  Had he simply taken over control of the aircraft from the co-pilot's seat, this accident would not have happened.  It just goes to show, though, how confused people can get:  before he got any further into the incident, the pilot wanted the crew in their proper places.  That was more important to him than actually regaining control of the aircraft.

Bottom line:  poor crew training, and poor decision making.  The argument that the manufacturer is somehow responsible, when no other aircraft were even endangered (insofar as i can find out from googling) by the lack of audible alarms, is untenable, in my opinion.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the manufacturer was responsible - obviously the overwhelming cause was pilot error, no question. The notion (granted from no better source than a TV show) was that the investigating body came to the conclusion that the lack of an audible warning was a contributing factor.

That's my recollection from the show, and it could very easily be at fault - I certainly haven't researched the matter.

[The Minsky Moment]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the manufacturer was responsible.

Forseeability!

[Malthus]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the manufacturer was responsible.

Forseeability!

You mean a feckless Russian pilot letting his kid fly the plane wasn't reasonably foreseeable?

It is now. 

[garbon]

Never experienced that, but Fiumicino (Rome's airport) is the crappiest, filthiest airport I've ever been in.  It reminded me of a crappy Green Line T station in Boston.

The green line has character.

I didn't have any trouble with Fiumicino.  Whereas I literally saw crap on the wall at Charles de Gaulle.

[DontSayBanana]

I am not sure that the manufacturer had changed policies or if the pilots simply had changed aircraft from one with an audible alarm.  The autopilot, in this case, was still engaged (though controlling fewer functions). 

One of the items not mentioned is that the pilot decided, before taking control of the wildly banking aircraft, to leave the co-pilot's seat, let the co-pilot sit down, and then take his own (the Pilot's) seat.  Had he simply taken over control of the aircraft from the co-pilot's seat, this accident would not have happened.  It just goes to show, though, how confused people can get:  before he got any further into the incident, the pilot wanted the crew in their proper places.  That was more important to him than actually regaining control of the aircraft.

Bottom line:  poor crew training, and poor decision making.  The argument that the manufacturer is somehow responsible, when no other aircraft were even endangered (insofar as i can find out from googling) by the lack of audible alarms, is untenable, in my opinion. 

It was a crewed aircraft, and nobody was paying attention to the cruise control? Do you hand the car's steering wheel over to the front-seat passenger, look away, and eat a sandwich? Another thing I learned from Flight Simulator was this: total autopilot is the stuff of video games (at the time, the 747's was one of the closest things we had to it); yaw and trim adjustments still have to be made constantly.

[Admiral Yi]

Are there flight sims with carrier deck landings?  I'm curious if it really is as tough as all that.

[Habbaku]

Are there flight sims with carrier deck landings?  I'm curious if it really is as tough as all that.

Pacific Fighters had it and carrier landings were fucking brutal in that.

[Admiral Yi]

Pacific Fighters had it and carrier landings were fucking brutal in that.

Break it down for me.  How many crackups before your first successful landing?

[garbon]

It was a crewed aircraft, and nobody was paying attention to the cruise control? Do you hand the car's steering wheel over to the front-seat passenger, look away, and eat a sandwich?

Rather poor analogy, Marty.  You can't really get out the driver's seat when the car is in motion, not easily like you can on a plane.  You don't really have as much room on the road so the smallest drift will, in a matter of seconds, become a monumental problem.  Also, I'm not really sure a front seat passenger is the equivalent of a child.  In many cases, passengers sitting in the front seat know how to drive.

[Habbaku]

Pacific Fighters had it and carrier landings were fucking brutal in that.

Break it down for me.  How many crackups before your first successful landing?

Easily five or six, I forget the exact number.  Probably even more.  If you went in too fast, you wouldn't catch the brake-wire correctly or even be able to stop before running off of the landing deck.  If you went too slow, you'd likely end up toppling the plane the wrong way.  You'd still land, but the plane would be totaled.

Fortunately, if you're going too fast, you can basically take off again and loop around for another attempt.  Of course, do that often enough and you run out of fuel...

[DGuller]

How do the real pilots learn to land on a carrier?  I assume in real life you don't have the option of making a mess of it the first few times before getting a hang of it.

[Admiral Yi]

How do the real pilots learn to land on a carrier?  I assume in real life you don't have the option of making a mess of it the first few times before getting a hang of it.

I think I saw on the Military Channel that they go first on concrete runways with connector cables and carrier-like lines painted on them.

[Richard Hakluyt]

How do the real pilots learn to land on a carrier?  I assume in real life you don't have the option of making a mess of it the first few times before getting a hang of it.

I always wonder about dentists in that context 

[garbon]

I always wonder about dentists in that context 

Most powerful man in the world and his magic johnson.

[Admiral Yi]

I always wonder about dentists in that context 

I once got some cheapo dental work done at the Georgetown U dental school, so I asked my guy how they learned to do that shot in the back of the mouth into the jaw joint.  He told me they get a lecture on it, then they pair up and practice on each other.