Ouch, that doesn't sound good.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34165138/ns/business-world_business/
QuoteDubai debt plea sends fear around world
Once one of the world's richest cities, emirate now can't pay its bills
updated 8:04 p.m. ET Nov. 26, 2009
DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - Just a year after the global downturn derailed Dubai's explosive growth, the city is now so swamped in debt that it's asking for a six-month reprieve on paying its bills — causing a drop on world markets Thursday and raising questions about Dubai's reputation as a magnet for international investment.
The fallout came swiftly and was felt globally after Wednesday's statement that Dubai's main development engine, Dubai World, would ask creditors for a "standstill" on paying back its $60 billion debt until at least May. The company's real estate arm, Nakheel — whose projects include the palm-shaped island in the Gulf — shoulders the bulk of money due to banks, investment houses and outside development contractors.
In total, the state-backed networks nicknamed Dubai Inc. are $80 billion in the red and the emirate needed a bailout earlier this year from its oil-rich neighbor Abu Dhabi, the capital of the United Arab Emirates.
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Markets took the news badly — with the Dubai woes and the continued fall of the U.S. dollar giving investors twin worries. Dubai's move raised concerns about debt across the Gulf Region. Prices to insure debt from Abu Dhabi, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Bahrain all rose by double-digit percentages Thursday, according to data from CMA DataVision.
In Europe, the FTSE 100, Germany's DAX and the CAC-40 in France opened sharply lower. Earlier in Asia, the Shanghai index sank 119.19 points, or 3.6 percent, in the biggest one-day fall since Aug. 31. Hong Kong's Hang Seng shed 1.8 percent to 22,210.41.
Wall Street was closed for the Thanksgiving holiday and most markets in the Middle East were silent because of a major Islamic feast.
"Dubai's standstill announcement ... was vague and it remains difficult to discern whether the call for a standstill will be voluntary," said a statement from the Eurasia Group, a Washington-based research group that assesses political and financial risk for foreign investors interested in Dubai.
"If it is not, Dubai World will be going into default and that will have more serious negative repercussions for Dubai's sovereign debt, Dubai World and market confidence in the UAE in general," the statement added.
Credit crunch
Dubai became the Gulf's biggest credit crunch victim a year ago. But its ruler, Sheik Mohammed bin Rashid Al-Maktoum, had continually dismissed concerns over the city-state's liquidity and claims it overreached during the good times.
When asked about the debt, he confidently assured reporters in a rare meeting two months ago that "we are all right" and "we are not worried," leaving details of a recovery plan — if such a plan exists — to everyone's guess.
Then, earlier this month, he told Dubai's critics to "shut up."
"He needs to produce a recovery plan that will be respected by those who want to do business with Dubai," said Simon Henderson, a Gulf and energy specialist at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. "If he does not do it right, Dubai will be a sad place."
After months of denial that the economic downturn even touched the glitzy city-state, the Dubai government earlier this year showed signs of trying to deal with the financial fallout that has halted dozens of projects and touched off an exodus of expatriate workers.
In February, it raised $10 billion in a hastily arranged bond sale to the United Arab Emirates central bank, which is based in Abu Dhabi.
The deal — seen by many as Abu Dhabi's bailout of Dubai — was part of a $20 billion bond program to help Dubai meet its debt obligations.
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On Wednesday, the Dubai Finance Department announced the emirate raised another $5 billion by selling bonds — all taken by two banks controlled by Abu Dhabi.
Abu Dhabi's ruling Al Nahyan family has been more conservative with its spending, investing oil profits into infrastructure, culture and state institutions. During Dubai's real estate bonanza, the Nahyans saw their flashy neighbor race ahead with development plans and tourism plans that had plenty of hype but few details on how they would be pulled off.
Some did materialize. The more than 2,600-foot Burj Dubai is scheduled to open in January as the world's tallest building. But many other projects, including a tower even taller than the Burj Dubai and satellite cities in the desert, are still just blueprints.
Ripples felt in Ky. horse auctions
The standstill will likely not immediately affect CityCenter, an $8.5 billion casino complex opening next month in Las Vegas that is half-owned by Dubai World. A Dubai World subsidiary and casino operator MGM Mirage agreed with banks in April to fully fund and finish the six-tower, 67-acre development of plush resorts, condominiums, a retail mall and one casino on the Las Vegas Strip.
However, the standstill's effect may be felt on the famous Keeneland thoroughbred horse auctions near Lexington, Ky., where Sheik Mohammed is a prominent bidder.
Last week, Sheik Mohammed demoted several prominent members of Dubai's corporate elite and replaced them with members of the ruling family, including his two sons, one of whom is Mohammed's designated heir.
Businessmen who fell out of favor were closely associated with Dubai's phenomenal success. They include the head of Dubai World, Sultan Ahmed bin Sulayem, and Mohammed Alabbar, the chief of Emaar Properties, developer of the Burj Dubai and hundreds of other projects.
"He is trying to shake things up," said Christopher Davidson, a lecturer on the Gulf at Britain's Durham University and an author of two books on the UAE.
However, Davidson added, Mohammed's decision to replace those who helped put Dubai on the world map with his relatives might be "read as an increase in autocracy which does not look good internationally."
Not everyone is upset at Dubai Inc.'s transformation into a family business, analysts say.
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Mohammed's latest moves may have pleased Abu Dhabi more than the foreign investors, but it is Abu Dhabi that still has the strongest incentives to save Dubai from its financial misery.
"By shifting the power base back to the family things are as they should be as far as Abu Dhabi is concerned," said Mohammed Shakeel, a Dubai-based analyst for the Economist Intelligence Unit.
After an expensive adventure in doing things the Western way, it's "going back to basics" for Dubai, Shakeel added.
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press.
:nelson:
Sucks to be them!
Kinda reminds me of the Asian financial crisis, which injected a dose of reality into the Asian tigers.
Dubai has always struck me as a gigantic house of cards. Anyway, I hope I'm around to see their oil reserves run dry so I can laugh my ass off when it all comes completely crashing down.
Dubai is the closest thing we have to paradise on earth. Unlimited oil wealth, construction frenzy, mighty buildings, exotic landscape. I have always wanted to see the place. I don't want to see a ghost town when I finally get there :(
Quote from: Caliga on November 27, 2009, 05:30:53 AM
Dubai has always struck me as a gigantic house of cards. Anyway, I hope I'm around to see their oil reserves run dry so I can laugh my ass off when it all comes completely crashing down.
Dubai doesn't have a great deal of oil, comparatively. That's why it's got so much debt whereas Abu Dhabi has almost none.
That's also why it's building this massive resort. That's one of the things they're doing to get economically ready for no oil.
Dubai is a subprime debtor on a state scale.
Quote from: Caliga on November 27, 2009, 05:30:53 AM
Dubai has always struck me as a gigantic house of cards. Anyway, I hope I'm around to see their oil reserves run dry so I can laugh my ass off when it all comes completely crashing down.
Dubai has more in common with Hong Kong then an oil state. It's an entrepot.
Who would have thought that creating a huge useless artificial island shaped like a palm leaf would be a bad financial move?!?
Seriously, if I was not personally affected by the state of the world economy, I would dance a happy jig every time someone's monumental financial stupidity and hubris is punished in this crisis.
What does he do for a living now anyway?
They obviously need to ramp up the white slavery.
What has Abu Dhabi decided not to loan them any money anymore?
Quote from: Monoriu on November 27, 2009, 05:47:32 AM
Dubai is the closest thing we have to paradise on earth.
Unless you're a construction worker from Bangladesh whose passport has been confiscated by his employers and is living in almost full slavery and terrible work safety conditions. Or a debtor who has to flee the country leaving everything behind or be sentenced to jail, as there's no concept of bankruptcy. Or a Filipino maid whose patrons keep her as an indentured servant, unable to leave. Or a local fisherman who has seen his trade and way of life ruined by the rapid pollution of the sea due to the untreated sewage of a population that has multiplied by several orders of magnitude without the proper infrastructures to sustain it. Or if you're just a normal human being with a modicum of brain cells able to see through the mirage and see that it's an unsustainable nightmare, and a tiny speck of heart to realize that everything in Dubai is built around false hopes, poor planning and the toil and suffering of hundreds of thousands of people.
But of course it's you, so I'm just wasting my words.
so basically, it's a lot like Hong Kong but with Muslims instead of Han Chinese?
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 27, 2009, 07:54:44 AM
so basically, it's a lot like Hong Kong but with Muslims instead of Han Chinese?
I'd say that it's even worse, as HK still keeps a warped sense of democracy, while Dubai never had it.
You mean borrowing money and using slave labour to build a giant holiday theme park for the ultra-wealthy in the middle of a desert in the middle east was a bad idea? :(
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2009, 09:18:53 AM
You mean borrowing money and using slave labour to build a giant holiday theme park for the ultra-wealthy in the middle of a desert in the middle east was a bad idea? :(
Oh it's not for the ultra-wealthy. Bits and pieces of it are but you can have relatively affordable holidays there. It is, however, for the ultra-vulgar. The sheer lack of taste is almost as unforgivable as the dreadful living conditions of the imported labour <_<
Quote from: The Larch on November 27, 2009, 07:53:45 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on November 27, 2009, 05:47:32 AM
Dubai is the closest thing we have to paradise on earth.
Unless you're a construction worker from Bangladesh whose passport has been confiscated by his employers and is living in almost full slavery and terrible work safety conditions. Or a debtor who has to flee the country leaving everything behind or be sentenced to jail, as there's no concept of bankruptcy. Or a Filipino maid whose patrons keep her as an indentured servant, unable to leave. Or a local fisherman who has seen his trade and way of life ruined by the rapid pollution of the sea due to the untreated sewage of a population that has multiplied by several orders of magnitude without the proper infrastructures to sustain it. Or if you're just a normal human being with a modicum of brain cells able to see through the mirage and see that it's an unsustainable nightmare, and a tiny speck of heart to realize that everything in Dubai is built around false hopes, poor planning and the toil and suffering of hundreds of thousands of people.
Bangledeshis are expendable. They spawn like blowflies, so why not use them up?
While a lack of bankruptcy laws has a chilling effect on commerce, Dubai isn't a real country in terms of business anyways. And people who can't pay their debts deserve to lose everything.
Filipino maids? How gauche. I can't imagine wanting one enough to keep it.
The fisherman would be out of business at some point anyways. The Spanish won't be satisfied until every living thing in the oceans is dead.
At any rate, you can't build something great without sacrificing people. You might whine and snivel, but back when the nations of the West were great, we operated in the same way.
Quote from: The Larch on November 27, 2009, 07:57:35 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 27, 2009, 07:54:44 AM
so basically, it's a lot like Hong Kong but with Muslims instead of Han Chinese?
I'd say that it's even worse, as HK still keeps a warped sense of democracy, while Dubai never had it.
Democracy is not inherently moral.
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2009, 09:18:53 AM
You mean borrowing money and using slave labour to build a giant holiday theme park for the ultra-wealthy in the middle of a desert in the middle east was a bad idea? :(
Actually, evidence would seem that it isn't. Las Vegas is still doing alright.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 27, 2009, 07:06:08 AM
What has Abu Dhabi decided not to loan them any money anymore?
English please.
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2009, 09:27:51 AM
While a lack of bankruptcy laws has a chilling effect on commerce, Dubai isn't a real country in terms of business anyways.
Well, that's exactly what they wanted to be and what they were aiming for.
If you think about it carefully, the collapse of the Dubai experiment should not be celebrated by anyone in the West.
I wonder how long before Abu Dhabi steps into this whole mess.
Quote from: Warspite on November 27, 2009, 10:04:35 AM
If you think about it carefully, the collapse of the Dubai experiment should not be celebrated by anyone in the West.
I wonder how long before Abu Dhabi steps into this whole mess.
And who is celebrating?
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 27, 2009, 09:21:06 AM
It is, however, for the ultra-vulgar. The sheer lack of taste is almost as unforgivable as the dreadful living conditions of the imported labour <_<
Burnt Orange furniture? :w00t:
Quote from: Martinus on November 27, 2009, 10:15:14 AM
Quote from: Warspite on November 27, 2009, 10:04:35 AM
If you think about it carefully, the collapse of the Dubai experiment should not be celebrated by anyone in the West.
I wonder how long before Abu Dhabi steps into this whole mess.
And who is celebrating?
Caliga was planning on laughing his ass off, he said. So people like that.
Simon Jones also penned what was virtually a celebratory piece taking great delight in Dubai's difficulties in the Guardian.
Can ya link to the Guardian piece?
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2009, 09:29:45 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2009, 09:18:53 AM
You mean borrowing money and using slave labour to build a giant holiday theme park for the ultra-wealthy in the middle of a desert in the middle east was a bad idea? :(
Actually, evidence would seem that it isn't. Las Vegas is still doing alright.
Las Vegas is pretty cheap. 20 dollar rooms, 3 dollar buffets, etc. Plus it's close enough to LA for weekend trips.
Quote from: The Larch on November 27, 2009, 07:53:45 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on November 27, 2009, 05:47:32 AM
Dubai is the closest thing we have to paradise on earth.
Unless you're a construction worker from Bangladesh whose passport has been confiscated by his employers and is living in almost full slavery and terrible work safety conditions. Or a debtor who has to flee the country leaving everything behind or be sentenced to jail, as there's no concept of bankruptcy. Or a Filipino maid whose patrons keep her as an indentured servant, unable to leave.
Most people on this forum, I've learned, don't give a shit. It's the Blessed Free Market at work. Nobody's forcing them to work there. Etc. Etc.
Quote from: Faeelin on November 27, 2009, 10:23:46 AM
Can ya link to the Guardian piece?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/20/dubai-decline-middle-east
I wouldn't mind a 4 hour stop over in Dubai someday to go to the top of the Burj Dubai.
Dubai will be fine though, it's primarily meant for Arabs and Muslims anyway. The demographics of that place are crazy though, 85% of the population are foreigners.
The vulgarity of Dubai has provided an immense service to anyone with a modicum of taste though, it enables them to feel superior and one isn't even obliged to visit it :)
I think we should despatch Brian Sewell to make a documentary about the place and it's architecture :cool:
er......assuming his health is up to it, would not like him to die of apoplexy.
Quote from: Warspite on November 27, 2009, 10:46:38 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on November 27, 2009, 10:23:46 AM
Can ya link to the Guardian piece?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/20/dubai-decline-middle-east
I hardly consider it celebratory. It states what I did - it was a massive monument to human folly and hubris, and now it collapses, like anyone with more than two brain cells that were not addled by greed could predict. This is of course not good news since its downfall will send ripples across the world's economy and like usual, affect the lives of those as well who did not conceive or benefit from its folly.
Would you rather have people stay blind and keep to their wishful thinking while the world around them predictably collapses?
It would be interesting to know who's sitting on that 60 billion of debt.
Quote from: Martinus on November 27, 2009, 11:06:10 AM
Quote from: Warspite on November 27, 2009, 10:46:38 AM
Quote from: Faeelin on November 27, 2009, 10:23:46 AM
Can ya link to the Guardian piece?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/mar/20/dubai-decline-middle-east
like anyone with more than two brain cells that were not addled by greed could predict.
That kinda excludes you, doesn't it?
Obviously they overbuilt, and in that respect, they are pretty much like just about everywhere else in the West.
The basic port facilities and operations are still sound, and a quick glance at the map suggests that competitive advantage is likely to endure.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2009, 11:32:56 AM
It would be interesting to know who's sitting on that 60 billion of debt.
I'd assume chinamen.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 27, 2009, 01:34:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2009, 11:32:56 AM
It would be interesting to know who's sitting on that 60 billion of debt.
I'd assume chinamen.
I'm not that sure. The Chinamen gives the US money because the US buys a lot of shit produce in China. The same can (probably) not be said for Dubai.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 27, 2009, 01:38:50 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 27, 2009, 01:34:21 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2009, 11:32:56 AM
It would be interesting to know who's sitting on that 60 billion of debt.
I'd assume chinamen.
I'm not that sure. The Chinamen gives the US money because the US buys a lot of shit produce in China. The same can (probably) not be said for Dhubai.
:huh:
China has a vested interest in the Middle East. Where else would they find a market for their second rate missiles?
Fair point.
Does the UAE buy a lot of missiles tho? or give money to those that do?
UAE buys American or Western European I'd bet. If you've got the oil cash, why buy shitty east bloc equipment?
Cause you get more of it, perhaps.
we should lock a bunch of Euros up in a room, in Guantanamo perhaps, and make them listen to American patriotic songs. I bet you by hour 4 they melt or disappear into spheres of radiant light.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 27, 2009, 01:49:29 PM
Cause you get more of it, perhaps.
Which is a real factor when your whole army is lik 60 guys.
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 27, 2009, 01:38:50 PM
I'm not that sure. The Chinamen gives the US money because the US buys a lot of shit produce in China. The same can (probably) not be said for Dubai.
China is the largest importer in the UAE
Quote from: Jaron on November 27, 2009, 01:52:59 PM
we should lock a bunch of Euros up in a room, in Guantanamo perhaps, and make them listen to American patriotic songs. I bet you by hour 4 they melt or disappear into spheres of radiant light.
Sung by men with 3 gallon hats and shirts with the Stars and stripes? You bet!
Quote from: Lucidor on November 27, 2009, 01:59:22 PM
Sung by men with 3 gallon hats and shirts with the Stars and stripes? You bet!
:cool:
I've got a cowboy hat and a Bass Pro Shops t-shirt... does that count?
Quote from: Caliga on November 27, 2009, 02:10:30 PM
Quote from: Lucidor on November 27, 2009, 01:59:22 PM
Sung by men with 3 gallon hats and shirts with the Stars and stripes? You bet!
:cool:
I've got a cowboy hat and a Bass Pro Shops t-shirt... does that count?
Ofcourse it does. Jaron needs you for his secret room somewhere, I've heard.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2009, 11:32:56 AM
It would be interesting to know who's sitting on that 60 billion of debt.
Dubais' debt was estimated at between 80-90 billion, but there is a lot that was off-balance, so the final tally is probably rather higher.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aXGrvyOI6IWs&pos=3
As for who is sitting on it, UK banks loaned heavily to the UAE. About 45% of Dubais' debt belongs to them. Especially Royal Bank of Scotland.
Quote from: Martim Silva on November 27, 2009, 03:05:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2009, 11:32:56 AM
It would be interesting to know who's sitting on that 60 billion of debt.
Dubais' debt was estimated at between 80-90 billion, but there is a lot that was off-balance, so the final tally is probably rather higher.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aXGrvyOI6IWs&pos=3
As for who is sitting on it, UK banks loaned heavily to the UAE. About 45% of Dubais' debt belongs to them. Especially Royal Bank of Scotland.
Heh, must be following the Darien investment precedent. :lol:
Quote from: Martim Silva on November 27, 2009, 03:05:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2009, 11:32:56 AM
It would be interesting to know who's sitting on that 60 billion of debt.
Dubais' debt was estimated at between 80-90 billion, but there is a lot that was off-balance, so the final tally is probably rather higher.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aXGrvyOI6IWs&pos=3
As for who is sitting on it, UK banks loaned heavily to the UAE. About 45% of Dubais' debt belongs to them. Especially Royal Bank of Scotland.
Bugger.
Thats all we need.
I guess we could just declare them terrorists and go get our money back but...that takes effort.
Quote from: Tyr on November 27, 2009, 03:17:23 PM
Quote from: Martim Silva on November 27, 2009, 03:05:00 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 27, 2009, 11:32:56 AM
It would be interesting to know who's sitting on that 60 billion of debt.
Dubais' debt was estimated at between 80-90 billion, but there is a lot that was off-balance, so the final tally is probably rather higher.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aXGrvyOI6IWs&pos=3
As for who is sitting on it, UK banks loaned heavily to the UAE. About 45% of Dubais' debt belongs to them. Especially Royal Bank of Scotland.
Bugger.
Thats all we need.
I guess we could just declare them terrorists and go get our money back but...that takes effort.
What money? They have none, that's why they're in shit to begin with :lol:
Quote from: HVC on November 27, 2009, 03:20:15 PM
Bugger.
Thats all we need.
I guess we could just declare them terrorists and go get our money back but...that takes effort.
]What money? They have none, that's why they're in shit to begin with :lol:
Nor did Iceland but we managed
Quote from: tyr
Nor did Iceland but we managed
Well, actually what the UK government did was to loan Iceland the billions of pounds with which the country could repay the depositors of the Icesave online bank (the Dutch did the same), but it seems that the Icelanders have other ideas as to what to do with the money...
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=a4Mr3uWpglY8
Iceland's agreement to reimburse British and Dutch depositors in Icesave Internet accounts isn't legally binding, Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir said in a letter to her U.K. counterpart Gordon Brown.
Iceland agreed on Oct. 19 to borrow 2.35 billion pounds ($3.92 billion) from the U.K. and 1.2 billion euros ($1.81 billion) from the Netherlands to cover depositors in the online bank set up by failed lender Landsbanki Island hf.Quote from: Martinus on November 27, 2009, 09:36:59 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on November 27, 2009, 07:06:08 AM
What has Abu Dhabi decided not to loan them any money anymore?
English please.
Dubai belongs the the United Arab Emirates. Abu Dhabi is effectively the financial powerhouse of the UAE, and it works as a sort of central bank for the others. Earlier this year, for example, it lent Dubai another 10 billion.
Even as late as November 13, Dubai said its debt was guaranteed by Abu Dhabi, so this plea from them is being interpreted as a sign that Abu Dhabi also has its problems, and by extension possibly all the Persian Gulf nations (which is why S&P and Moody's cut their ratings for the entire region that very same day and the cost of CDS for Qatar, Bahrain, Oman and even Saudi Arabia instantly skyrocketed).
To be honest, Abu Dhabi seems to have been just as surprised as anyone else by the events, but the fact remains that there are a lot of problems in a region that was hitherto percieved as of low risk for lenders. One of the consequences is that these last two days the local companies have had huge problems selling their bonds (called Sukuk).
What Would Chavez Do?
Quote from: The Brain on November 27, 2009, 03:54:11 PM
What Would Chavez Do?
That day?
He reinforced his alliance with Iran.
http://news.ca.msn.com/world/cp-article.aspx?cp-documentid=22723781
Iranian leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad sought to expand Tehran's influence in Latin America and deepen his alliance with Venezuela's Hugo Chavez on Wednesday in a visit that gave him a platform to defend his country's nuclear program.
Both leaders roundly denounced U.S. "imperialism," and Chavez also called Israel "a murderous arm of the Yankee empire."But Dubai is really a western problem (it is the showcase of the UAE) and thus has little importance on Venezuelas' strategy.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 27, 2009, 10:34:48 AM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2009, 09:29:45 AM
Quote from: Malthus on November 27, 2009, 09:18:53 AM
You mean borrowing money and using slave labour to build a giant holiday theme park for the ultra-wealthy in the middle of a desert in the middle east was a bad idea? :(
Actually, evidence would seem that it isn't. Las Vegas is still doing alright.
Las Vegas is pretty cheap. 20 dollar rooms, 3 dollar buffets, etc. Plus it's close enough to LA for weekend trips.
Yes, it's completely depressed right now. It also had some utterly brainless over-expansion going on that blew up in everyone's face, and no one knows yet how they're going to get water decades from now.
Quote from: DGuller on November 27, 2009, 05:56:24 PM
and no one knows yet how they're going to get water decades from now.
Hydrogen and oxygen sequestration.
Heh, they're showing one of these "Megastructures" documentaries on TV right now, and it's about the Palm Islands in Dubai. It's funny to hear how they heap praise on the "boldness", "audacity" and "vision" of the project, and so on.
I gotta go with Cal. Dubai is a house of cards. It is funded by grants from Abu Dhabi. All the companies that have gone there are companies which support the oil industry (from Apple to Xerox). The Emirate is not developing a post oil industry, it is maximizing the business opportunities given by oil.
Quote from: The Larch on November 29, 2009, 07:57:33 AM
Heh, they're showing one of these "Megastructures" documentaries on TV right now, and it's about the Palm Islands in Dubai. It's funny to hear how they heap praise on the "boldness", "audacity" and "vision" of the project, and so on.
Those things are praiseworthy. They were unlucky this time, but it's nice to see those qualities somewhere in the world.
Quote from: The Larch on November 29, 2009, 07:57:33 AM
Heh, they're showing one of these "Megastructures" documentaries on TV right now, and it's about the Palm Islands in Dubai. It's funny to hear how they heap praise on the "boldness", "audacity" and "vision" of the project, and so on.
When I saw them a while back, the utter wastefulness of it just struck me. Same with Abu Dhabi, really. The only thing missing from their new Formula 1 track is being paved with gold.
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2009, 09:29:45 AM
Actually, evidence would seem that it isn't. Las Vegas is still doing alright.
It's interesting how everyone is jumping on the Death to Dubai train.
Quote from: Neil on November 29, 2009, 08:37:22 AM
Those things are praiseworthy. They were unlucky this time, but it's nice to see those qualities somewhere in the world.
:hug:
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2009, 04:17:26 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 27, 2009, 09:29:45 AM
Actually, evidence would seem that it isn't. Las Vegas is still doing alright.
It's interesting how everyone is jumping on the Death to Dubai train.
They are Muslims.
You know, it strikes me as somewhat counter productive to root for a middle east economy that is working towards modernization to fail. But hey, maybe they can all go to Switzerland and erect illegal minarets.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 29, 2009, 07:18:41 PM
You know, it strikes me as somewhat counter productive to root for a middle east economy that is working towards modernization to fail. But hey, maybe they can all go to Switzerland and erect illegal minarets.
They are just pretending to modernize. Inside every dune coon is a black heart.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 29, 2009, 07:18:41 PM
You know, it strikes me as somewhat counter productive to root for a middle east economy that is working towards modernization to fail. But hey, maybe they can all go to Switzerland and erect illegal minarets.
Shades of the Dubai ports deal that got shot down by the Democrats.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 29, 2009, 07:18:41 PM
You know, it strikes me as somewhat counter productive to root for a middle east economy that is working towards modernization to fail. But hey, maybe they can all go to Switzerland and erect illegal minarets.
That's what I meant with my comment.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 29, 2009, 07:18:41 PM
You know, it strikes me as somewhat counter productive to root for a middle east economy that is working towards modernization to fail. But hey, maybe they can all go to Switzerland and erect illegal minarets.
I don't think anyone is rooting here. I think most people are just chuckling inside.
Quote from: DGuller on November 29, 2009, 07:34:12 PM
I don't think anyone is rooting here. I think most people are just chuckling inside.
Understandable. After all, how would we define ourselves without our enemies in the East?
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2009, 07:38:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 29, 2009, 07:34:12 PM
I don't think anyone is rooting here. I think most people are just chuckling inside.
Understandable. After all, how would we define ourselves without our enemies in the East?
DorseyGuller
is the enemy to the East. He sends monthly reports to Pooty-poot.
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2009, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 29, 2009, 07:18:41 PM
You know, it strikes me as somewhat counter productive to root for a middle east economy that is working towards modernization to fail. But hey, maybe they can all go to Switzerland and erect illegal minarets.
That's what I meant with my comment.
It's sad when you and I are the only rational ones here.
Quote from: Neil on November 29, 2009, 07:43:19 PM
DorseyGuller is the enemy to the East. He sends monthly reports to Pooty-poot.
Fuck you. And just for that, you're so in the next report.
Quote from: DGuller on November 29, 2009, 07:56:15 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 29, 2009, 07:43:19 PM
DorseyGuller is the enemy to the East. He sends monthly reports to Pooty-poot.
Fuck you. And just for that, you're so in the next report.
DG is getting his carbon paper out now.
Quote from: Neil on November 29, 2009, 07:43:19 PM
DorseyGuller is the enemy to the East. He sends monthly reports to Pooty-poot.
Sorry, I spent one night in Russia and got hopelessly confused. :Embarrass:
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2009, 08:03:37 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 29, 2009, 07:43:19 PM
DorseyGuller is the enemy to the East. He sends monthly reports to Pooty-poot.
Sorry, I spent one night in Russia and got hopelessly confused. :Embarrass:
:hug:
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2009, 08:03:37 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 29, 2009, 07:43:19 PM
DorseyGuller is the enemy to the East. He sends monthly reports to Pooty-poot.
Sorry, I spent one night in Russia and got hopelessly confused. :Embarrass:
I spent all my time in Russia on the lookout for periscopes and Russian perfidy.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 29, 2009, 07:49:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2009, 07:33:52 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 29, 2009, 07:18:41 PM
You know, it strikes me as somewhat counter productive to root for a middle east economy that is working towards modernization to fail. But hey, maybe they can all go to Switzerland and erect illegal minarets.
That's what I meant with my comment.
It's sad when you and I are the only rational ones here.
I agree with you. The schadenfreude in this case is baffling.
What's so baffling? Bad people have bad things happening to them.
Quote from: DGuller on November 29, 2009, 09:12:00 PM
What's so baffling? Bad people have bad things happening to them.
I'd rather bad things happen to the really bad, bad people rather than the somewhat bad, bad people.
Quote from: Neil on November 29, 2009, 08:16:11 PM
I spent all my time in Russia on the lookout for periscopes and Russian perfidy.
Did you give up when you realized that Palin has got our backs?
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2009, 09:32:01 PM
Quote from: Neil on November 29, 2009, 08:16:11 PM
I spent all my time in Russia on the lookout for periscopes and Russian perfidy.
Did you give up when you realized that Palin has got our backs?
This was before Sarah Palin was a national figure.
Oh. =(
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2009, 08:03:37 PM
Sorry, I spent one night in Russia and got hopelessly confused. :Embarrass:
Is Russia a stripper?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on November 29, 2009, 09:38:30 PM
Is Russia a stripper?
Doesn't dgul claim to be an actual or something?
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2009, 09:30:18 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 29, 2009, 09:12:00 PM
What's so baffling? Bad people have bad things happening to them.
I'd rather bad things happen to the really bad, bad people rather than the somewhat bad, bad people.
I'm not a perfectionist.
Quote from: DGuller on November 29, 2009, 09:58:25 PM
I keep telling you, I wasn't in the mood.
I though it was: "I just want you to know that this never happens to me. I mean really, this never happens."
"It's not me, you're just not that attractive."
Quote from: garbon on November 29, 2009, 10:02:09 PM
Quote from: DGuller on November 29, 2009, 09:58:25 PM
I keep telling you, I wasn't in the mood.
I though it was: "I just want you to know that this never happens to me. I mean really, this never happens."
That too. It takes a lot to kill my mood.
Quote from: Razgovory on November 29, 2009, 07:18:41 PM
You know, it strikes me as somewhat counter productive to root for a middle east economy that is working towards modernization to fail. But hey, maybe they can all go to Switzerland and erect illegal minarets.
Modernizing and diversifying their economy is a great thing for them to do. Wasting hundreds of millions in vanity projects that are utterly unsustainable is folly and a sign of hubris. All while keeping a medieval law system incompatible with the XXIst century, totalitarian government structure, and a basically slave-like chaste to do the real work, which isn't really a nice thing to do.
The UAE isn't totalitarian.
Quote from: Warspite on November 30, 2009, 09:55:15 AM
The UAE isn't totalitarian.
Wrong choice of words, sorry. I'll swap that for absolutistic or authoritarian.