Languish.org

Inquiring minds, etc etc  :whistle:

To clarify the question: "beyond organic" meat is produced in farms run by people who think the existent regulations about organic farming are way too loose, i.e. heavily influenced by food producer lobbies.

It is strictly related to the concept of self-sustainable farming systems, and community-supported agriculture.
A good example of this would be http://www.polyfacefarms.com/ (http://www.polyfacefarms.com/).

Actually, organic labelled foods are sold at prices between 10 and 40% higher than their non-organic equivalent, and I have no idea how much would cost a "beyond organic" equivalent.

L.

No.

I wouldn't even pay premium for any kind of organic food.  Drugs are very expensive in US, I'd rather get mine for free with my meat.

I'm really poor, just having money to eat decently is something I struggle for. Spending extra to get organic is well beyond me.

Yes.  I would once and then continue to buy it if it tasted better.

I'd give it a try to see if it's worth it.

I recently tried some "normal organic" meat bought from a normal butcher, and I must say that there's a noticeable increase in taste, especially for courtyard meat, i.e. chicken, rabbit and turkey. Beef is more flavorful, while pork meat doesn't seem to gain a lot from organic raising methods.

But, aside from the taste that0's surely important, for me the main issue is about the drugs used to keep the animals healthy (or presumed so) in normal cattle farms.  :x

L.

Would you rather eat the meat from a sick animal?

I can taste the difference in meat that's been reared in a traditional manner (not necessarily "organic") as opposed to the cheap stuff. But with fruits and vegetables, not so much.

I would pay a premium for top quality meat if I could.

No.  I only eat Frankenfoods.

Quote from: Warspite on November 24, 2009, 10:59:20 AM
I can taste the difference in meat that's been reared in a traditional manner (not necessarily "organic") as opposed to the cheap stuff. But with fruits and vegetables, not so much.

This is my experience too.  Especially with chicken.

Quote from: DGuller on November 24, 2009, 10:58:33 AM
Would you rather eat the meat from a sick animal?

Ruminants get sick during raising because they are fed cereals to quickly gain weight, but they are not made (or created  :P) to digest cereals: if fed with grass and hay, they stay perfectly healthy, although they gain weight at a far slower rate.
Another cause of sickness are space-intensive stables, when in nature they stay loosely packed on the fields.

L.

If you think about it, the same can be said of humans.  Introduction of the grain-based agriculture caused a significant decline in the health of humans, and we need to rectify it with a bunch of pills.  Maybe the new trend would be having organic humans.

Nope.

Why bother? We're all going to die.

Quote from: DGuller on November 24, 2009, 11:17:35 AM
If you think about it, the same can be said of humans.  Introduction of the grain-based agriculture caused a significant decline in the health of humans, and we need to rectify it with a bunch of pills.  Maybe the new trend would be having organic humans.

Actually, many humans ate grains as a good portion of the diet during seasonal rounds, it was the movement to making this the majority of the diet that caused problems.

Quote from: DGuller on November 24, 2009, 11:17:35 AM
If you think about it, the same can be said of humans.  Introduction of the grain-based agriculture caused a significant decline in the health of humans, and we need to rectify it with a bunch of pills.  Maybe the new trend would be having organic humans.

Salad-eating humans.

...O gawd, it would mean my mom was right! NOOOOOOoooooo!

L.

Quote from: Sheilbh on November 24, 2009, 11:08:33 AM
This is my experience too.  Especially with chicken.

I found British chicken inedible.  When i lived there, I always bought danish.  British fish-meal chicken feed gives the chicken a distinctly fishy taste, noticeable if you haven't been brought up on it.

Quote from: Pedrito on November 24, 2009, 11:08:37 AM
Ruminants get sick during raising because they are fed cereals to quickly gain weight, but they are not made (or created  :P) to digest cereals: if fed with grass and hay, they stay perfectly healthy, although they gain weight at a far slower rate.

Not so.  They are healthier, but they don't "stay perfectly healthy."  The very notion of perfect health is absurd.

I would try them and then carry on buying the products if I thought they tasted better.

I've found that there are a lot of products where it really is worth paying for the superior stuff; eg chicken, cooked meats, bread, raisins, salad stuff, beer.......er........most food in fact  :)

The extra expense is insignificant to people on a western middle-class income, but I appreciate it is a problem for students, people on low wages and so on.

Quote from: grumbler on November 24, 2009, 12:20:58 PM

Quote from: Pedrito on November 24, 2009, 11:08:37 AM
Ruminants get sick during raising because they are fed cereals to quickly gain weight, but they are not made (or created  :P) to digest cereals: if fed with grass and hay, they stay perfectly healthy, although they gain weight at a far slower rate.

Not so.  They are healthier, but they don't "stay perfectly healthy."  The very notion of perfect health is absurd.

For illnesses related to incorrect nutrition, if fed the right food the animals will stay healthy; for other kinds of illness, well they will be subject to them like any other animal, duh.

L.

Quote from: grumbler on November 24, 2009, 12:18:49 PM
I found British chicken inedible.  When i lived there, I always bought danish.  British fish-meal chicken feed gives the chicken a distinctly fishy taste, noticeable if you haven't been brought up on it.

Yep.  Chicken's a luxury for me because I don't like buying the cheap factory farmed stuff because it tastes worse and I disagree with that sort of farming.  But the free-range stuff, which tastes superb, is considerably more expensive :(

I broadly agree with RH.  In my experience more expensive food, artisanal style food generally is better and worth the extra cost.  If I could afford it it would be all I buy.  As I can't I make sort of practical decisions.  I value good meat so I'll buy expensive stuff rarely, or use unfashionable cuts that take a lot of stewing.  I really love good cheese so I'll buy a little of the good stuff but have it rarely with crackers not as standard in a sandwich.  Fruit and veg and I generally don't buy the expensive stuff because I've not noticed a big enough taste difference (except, weirdly, with carrots).

But I do think more 'traditional' rearing is generally better when it comes to animals and, if I could, I'd only eat that sort of meat.

Quote from: Pedrito on November 24, 2009, 10:52:30 AM
I recently tried some "normal organic" meat bought from a normal butcher, and I must say that there's a noticeable increase in taste, especially for courtyard meat, i.e. chicken, rabbit and turkey. Beef is more flavorful, while pork meat doesn't seem to gain a lot from organic raising methods.

But, aside from the taste that0's surely important, for me the main issue is about the drugs used to keep the animals healthy (or presumed so) in normal cattle farms.  :x

In general I'm very cynical about stuff like this here in the states, but when I was in Italy I ate at two agriturismo places--one in Tivoli and one maybe 20 km from Florence in the Tuscan countryside--which claimed to be totally organic, and the food was absolutely amazing.  If I lived in Italy like you do, I'd therefore probably vote "yes".  :cool:

No. There are no proven health benefits to ordinary organic food and most of is doesn't taste sufficiently better to warrant the price.

I've been to the top steak joints across the States, but none can really match Charolais "Red Label" prepared in even a modest Burgundian establishment.  More generally, I have found organic meat to be of higher quality and more tasty although there may be a kind of selection bias at work.

I also think that raising animals in open range conditions with traditional diets is more decent than force-feeding them grains or offal and making them stew in small cages in their own refuse.

Quote from: grumbler on November 24, 2009, 12:20:58 PM

Quote from: Pedrito on November 24, 2009, 11:08:37 AM
Ruminants get sick during raising because they are fed cereals to quickly gain weight, but they are not made (or created  :P) to digest cereals: if fed with grass and hay, they stay perfectly healthy, although they gain weight at a far slower rate.

Not so.  They are healthier, but they don't "stay perfectly healthy."  The very notion of perfect health is absurd.

Much healthier.  He is quite right that ruminants do get sick when feed grains (corn mostly).  As a result feed lots have to pump them full of antibiotics to keep them alive long enough to fatten them for slaughter.

One of the interesting health hazards from feed lot beef are the bacteria that are produced by cattle that are feed corn.  Cattle fed a natural diet of grass has a acidically neutral stomach but cows fed with corn develop acidic stomachs.  The significance of this is the bacteria that grow in the acidic neutral stomach die when they hit our stomach because they are not adapted to an acidic envirnment but the bacteria the grows in the acidic stomach of a corn feed cow does quite well in our stomachs as well. 

As for taste that is a personal thing.  But the taste of organic grass feed beef is far superior to my taste and I am willing to pay a premium for that.  Also, anyone who says there is no difference between free range eggs and normal industrial eggs has simply not looked at them side by side.  the colour, texture and taste are completely different.  Also, Brazen is simply wrong.  Free range eggs have much more nutritional value as does grass fed beef. 

Quote from: Caliga on November 24, 2009, 12:50:54 PM
In general I'm very cynical about stuff like this here in the states, but when I was in Italy I ate at two agriturismo places--one in Tivoli and one maybe 20 km from Florence in the Tuscan countryside--which claimed to be totally organic, and the food was absolutely amazing.  If I lived in Italy like you do, I'd therefore probably vote "yes".  :cool:

Staying in Agroturismos in Italy is what got me interested in this in the first place.  The owners were very passionate about their food and the way it was produced.  And of course it was amazing.

Quote from: crazy canuck on November 24, 2009, 01:23:29 PM

Quote from: Caliga on November 24, 2009, 12:50:54 PM
In general I'm very cynical about stuff like this here in the states, but when I was in Italy I ate at two agriturismo places--one in Tivoli and one maybe 20 km from Florence in the Tuscan countryside--which claimed to be totally organic, and the food was absolutely amazing.  If I lived in Italy like you do, I'd therefore probably vote "yes".  :cool:

Staying in Agroturismos in Italy is what got me interested in this in the first place.  The owners were very passionate about their food and the way it was produced.  And of course it was amazing.

Italy is a country that takes its food VERY seriously.

Quote from: Sheilbh on November 24, 2009, 12:45:56 PM
Fruit and veg and I generally don't buy the expensive stuff because I've not noticed a big enough taste difference (except, weirdly, with carrots).

I agree, I cant taste much of a diffence except you and I have the same taste with carrots.  For some reason organic carrots seem sweet and far more tasty.  We still buy organic because of the reports that they have more nutritional value and less nasty stuff put on them during growing.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 24, 2009, 01:12:15 PM
I've been to the top steak joints across the States (...)

I didn't get the chance to go to Peter Luger when I went to NY.  :cry:

No "maybe" option? It really would depend on the cost, what you get for the cost, etc. I sometimes buy "organic" meat, but absolutely loathe that term. of course it's organic, it's meat, you know from an organism. I probably buy as much so called organic food as I do non. It's all about getting a good deal.

Quote from: crazy canuck on November 24, 2009, 01:21:30 PMAlso, anyone who says there is no difference between free range eggs and normal industrial eggs has simply not looked at them side by side.  the colour, texture and taste are completely different.  Also, Brazen is simply wrong.  Free range eggs have much more nutritional value as does grass fed beef.

Yeah.  Eggs is a real biggy.  I don't eat many eggs and the costs not that much different so I've no problem only eating free range.

Quote from: Sheilbh on November 24, 2009, 01:37:56 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on November 24, 2009, 01:21:30 PMAlso, anyone who says there is no difference between free range eggs and normal industrial eggs has simply not looked at them side by side.  the colour, texture and taste are completely different.  Also, Brazen is simply wrong.  Free range eggs have much more nutritional value as does grass fed beef.

Yeah.  Eggs is a real biggy.  I don't eat many eggs and the costs not that much different so I've no problem only eating free range.

Putting an industrial egg next to a free range one really shames the former. Pale yellow yolk doesn't really stand a chance against bright orange yolk.

Quote from: The Larch on November 24, 2009, 01:26:06 PM
Italy is a country that takes its food VERY seriously.

Italy also has a very ruthless mafia.  Yet, despite those two things, Olive Garden still exists.  Why, oh why?

Quote from: DGuller on November 24, 2009, 01:45:32 PM

Quote from: The Larch on November 24, 2009, 01:26:06 PM
Italy is a country that takes its food VERY seriously.

Italy also has a very ruthless mafia.  Yet, despite those two things, Olive Garden still exists.  Why, oh why?

Obviously they:

a) Have never heard about it.
b) Are the ones running it.  :ph34r:

Hell no.

There is no good evidence that consumption of organic food is beneficial to health in relation to nutrient content. Organic farming in general is a wasteful Western fetish that consumes more energy, water, and land than standard agriculture practices.

Just make sure you cook your organic meat thoroughly.

I just hope that the vegetables at the local grocery store aren't wilted before they even hit the shelves.  Fancy organic, free range products aren't exactly available north of 60. - unless you hunt it yourself.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 24, 2009, 02:31:51 PM
Just make sure you cook your organic meat thoroughly.

I'm set there. Well done bitches!

Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2009, 02:42:48 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 24, 2009, 02:31:51 PM
Just make sure you cook your organic meat thoroughly.

I'm set there. Well done bitches!

Great, turning organic meat into synthetic rubber.

Quote from: DGuller on November 24, 2009, 02:46:19 PM

Quote from: Ed Anger on November 24, 2009, 02:42:48 PM

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 24, 2009, 02:31:51 PM
Just make sure you cook your organic meat thoroughly.

I'm set there. Well done bitches!

Great, turning organic meat into synthetic rubber.

delicious, non-contaminated rubber. mmmmmmmm.

Quote from: MadImmortalMan on November 24, 2009, 02:31:51 PM
Just make sure you cook your organic meat thoroughly.

Actually there is a lot less reason to do so then with feed lot beef.

Quote from: Barrister on November 24, 2009, 02:38:09 PM
I just hope that the vegetables at the local grocery store aren't wilted before they even hit the shelves.  Fancy organic, free range products aren't exactly available north of 60. - unless you hunt it yourself.

Some of the best organic ranches are north of Prince George.  Not sure why you cant get the best organic beef.  Do they have to fly it in. :P

I'm not concerned about the welfare of the cow.

I would. I wish they had free range chickens in Polish supermarkets.

To be honest, I don't quite get the hostility/opposition to paying more for higher quality food. We pay more for better tvs or shoes, so surely stuff we put into our own bodies is more important than that?

Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2009, 04:45:14 PM
I would. I wish they had free range chickens in Polish supermarkets.

Wouldn't they get in the way of the carts and make a horrible mess?

Quote from: crazy canuck on November 24, 2009, 01:21:30 PM
Much healthier.  He is quite right that ruminants do get sick when feed grains (corn mostly).  As a result feed lots have to pump them full of antibiotics to keep them alive long enough to fatten them for slaughter. (snip)

Quick research says that it is the crowding that causes the illness rates to increase, and that the impact of the high grain diet is that the cows lack fiber, and so, as you note in the snipped bit, have a higher rate of e.coli (which flourishes in the resulting high-acid environment).

We agree that feedlot cattle need much higher levels of antibiotics but that range-fed cattle still need them; range-fed cattle are not "perfectly healthy" as was asserted, just "healthier."

QuoteAs for taste that is a personal thing.  But the taste of organic grass feed beef is far superior to my taste and I am willing to pay a premium for that.

Blind taste tests indicate the opposite.  That may, however, be due to the superior appearance of the feedlot-cattle meat.

QuoteAlso, anyone who says there is no difference between free range eggs and normal industrial eggs has simply not looked at them side by side.  the colour, texture and taste are completely different.

I haven't made this comparison, so will take your word for it.

QuoteFree range eggs have much more nutritional value as does grass fed beef.

The meat side of this seems pretty well-established; lower fat meat and higher omega-3 levels are found in range-fed animals.  Haven't found anything about the eggs, but your assertion seems quite credible.

Quote from: grumbler on November 24, 2009, 05:11:04 PM
Blind taste tests indicate the opposite.  That may, however, be due to the superior appearance of the feedlot-cattle meat.

That is surprising to me.  It may be because feed lot beef has more fat and therefore appeals to a palate that is used to a high fat diet.

QuoteQuick research says that it is the crowding that causes the illness rates to increase

Dig a bit deeper.  Certainly overcrowding plays a role but their immune system is compromised by the fact that they are not being fed grass.  Also, it is not true the free range cattle must be given antiboitics.  None of the free range beef I eat is given antibiotics.

Quote from: crazy canuck on November 24, 2009, 05:16:14 PM
That is surprising to me.  It may be because feed lot beef has more fat and therefore appeals to a palate that is used to a high fat diet.

IMO, fat is more crucial for texture than for taste.

Quote from: crazy canuck on November 24, 2009, 05:16:14 PM

Quote from: grumbler on November 24, 2009, 05:11:04 PM
Blind taste tests indicate the opposite.  That may, however, be due to the superior appearance of the feedlot-cattle meat.

That is surprising to me.  It may be because feed lot beef has more fat and therefore appeals to a palate that is used to a high fat diet.

It is not surprising to me for the very reason you mention.  The typical consumer equates fatty with better.   Those who prefer a gamier style with more flavor tend to be in the minority.

I only buy the finest cans of Spam. None of that 'Treet' bullshit.   :mad:

Quote from: Martinus on November 24, 2009, 04:45:14 PM
I would. I wish they had free range chickens in Polish supermarkets.

To be honest, I don't quite get the hostility/opposition to paying more for higher quality food. We pay more for better tvs or shoes, so surely stuff we put into our own bodies is more important than that?

The opposition exists because there is no good proof that it is higher quality food.

With regard to grass fed beef - just wait until the climate change movement seizes on the issue. In the future when methane sequestration from ruminate animals will be a serious concern, grass feeding will be illegal. All cattle will be raised in factories with atmospheric controls.

I'd definitely try it.  Whether I'd buy it regularly would depend on the price and taste differential.

Quote from: Fate on November 24, 2009, 06:08:07 PM
With regard to grass fed beef - just wait until the climate change movement seizes on the issue. In the future when methane sequestration from ruminate animals will be a serious concern, grass feeding will be illegal. All cattle will be raised in factories with atmospheric controls.

It is a major issue.  But it's not one we can do much with.  The climate change lot broadly speaking support organic low-intensive local farming with everyone eating less meat.  Unfortunately with meat consumption it's largely a thing that's emerging in the developing world.

But the environmental angle is precisely what's cause me to cut down on the amount of meat I eat.

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 24, 2009, 05:40:46 PM

Quote from: crazy canuck on November 24, 2009, 05:16:14 PM

Quote from: grumbler on November 24, 2009, 05:11:04 PM
Blind taste tests indicate the opposite.  That may, however, be due to the superior appearance of the feedlot-cattle meat.

That is surprising to me.  It may be because feed lot beef has more fat and therefore appeals to a palate that is used to a high fat diet.

It is not surprising to me for the very reason you mention.  The typical consumer equates fatty with better.   Those who prefer a gamier style with more flavor tend to be in the minority.

I wouldnt describe it as gamey.  I find grass fed beef to be much more rich and flavourful.  Plus I get to tell myself it is healthy.... :D

Quote from: Sheilbh on November 24, 2009, 06:58:13 PM

Quote from: Fate on November 24, 2009, 06:08:07 PM
With regard to grass fed beef - just wait until the climate change movement seizes on the issue. In the future when methane sequestration from ruminate animals will be a serious concern, grass feeding will be illegal. All cattle will be raised in factories with atmospheric controls.

It is a major issue.  But it's not one we can do much with.  The climate change lot broadly speaking support organic low-intensive local farming with everyone eating less meat.  Unfortunately with meat consumption it's largely a thing that's emerging in the developing world.

But the environmental angle is precisely what's cause me to cut down on the amount of meat I eat.

The number of animals the Nepalese kill provides a good off set.

Quote from: Sheilbh on November 24, 2009, 06:58:13 PM

Quote from: Fate on November 24, 2009, 06:08:07 PM
With regard to grass fed beef - just wait until the climate change movement seizes on the issue. In the future when methane sequestration from ruminate animals will be a serious concern, grass feeding will be illegal. All cattle will be raised in factories with atmospheric controls.

It is a major issue.  But it's not one we can do much with.  The climate change lot broadly speaking support organic low-intensive local farming with everyone eating less meat.  Unfortunately with meat consumption it's largely a thing that's emerging in the developing world.

But the environmental angle is precisely what's cause me to cut down on the amount of meat I eat.

Methane is a byproduct of bad digestion, that's caused by feeding the cows what they are not used to eat; if you feed them a mix of grass from a pasture, they will pollute far less, grow healthier and become delicious steaks.
Win-win!  :cool:

L.

I will never buy organic just because it is organic or because of any environmental reasons. 

However, I am willing to pay a premium for better tasting food, organic or not. 

Quote from: Monoriu on November 24, 2009, 07:26:42 PM
I will never buy organic just because it is organic or because of any environmental reasons. 

However, I am willing to pay a premium for better tasting food, organic or not. 

DEVILSADVOCATEDONTSTOMPMYFREAKINGBALLS:

How about paying a premium on not poisoning yourself with the weird chemicals that slip through the food production process?  Chloracne, that weird shit that screwed up Viktor Yuschenko's face- the chemical that causes that shows up in trace amounts in coffee filters.

Quote from: Fate on November 24, 2009, 01:58:57 PM
Hell no.

There is no good evidence that consumption of organic food is beneficial to health in relation to nutrient content. Organic farming in general is a wasteful Western fetish that consumes more energy, water, and land than standard agriculture practices.

by farming as millions of people have done for thousands of years? weird. "The more you know" I guess.

Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on November 25, 2009, 02:08:37 AM

Quote from: Fate on November 24, 2009, 01:58:57 PM
Hell no.

There is no good evidence that consumption of organic food is beneficial to health in relation to nutrient content. Organic farming in general is a wasteful Western fetish that consumes more energy, water, and land than standard agriculture practices.

by farming as millions of people have done for thousands of years? weird. "The more you know" I guess.

People were also regularly starving for thousands of years.

The last thing I need is more nutrients  :blush:

Quote from: DGuller on November 25, 2009, 02:14:17 AM

Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on November 25, 2009, 02:08:37 AM

Quote from: Fate on November 24, 2009, 01:58:57 PM
Hell no.

There is no good evidence that consumption of organic food is beneficial to health in relation to nutrient content. Organic farming in general is a wasteful Western fetish that consumes more energy, water, and land than standard agriculture practices.

by farming as millions of people have done for thousands of years? weird. "The more you know" I guess.

People were also regularly starving for thousands of years.

um yeah they were all starving  :rolleyes:

Most people in the west eat processed food crap all day every day to start with. so it's a moot point.

but so a niche market exists? who cares.

Pedrito, next time name your fucking thread in a proper descriptive manner.

Do you have any idea how long it takes to load a page using this fucking iraqi ISP?

Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on November 25, 2009, 02:08:37 AM

Quote from: Fate on November 24, 2009, 01:58:57 PM
Hell no.

There is no good evidence that consumption of organic food is beneficial to health in relation to nutrient content. Organic farming in general is a wasteful Western fetish that consumes more energy, water, and land than standard agriculture practices.

by farming as millions of people have done for thousands of years? weird. "The more you know" I guess.

If humans farmed as wastefully as they did in 1000 AD, then there would not be enough food to support the population.

No. I like the theory but I think right now that people are just preying on the guilt of people to make money.

Quote from: Strix on November 26, 2009, 08:50:12 AM
No. I like the theory but I think right now that people are just preying on the guilt of people to make money.

Well, it answers a demand. The "feel good" factor is something that some people are willing to pay for - it's the matter of a personal cost-benefit balance.

After all, we pay for alcohol or computer games for the very same reason - to make us feel good.

Quote from: Strix on November 26, 2009, 08:50:12 AM
No. I like the theory but I think right now that people are just preying on the guilt of people to make money.

Doesn't that work more with things like Fair Trade than organic?  In my experience the fans of organic stuff are middle class foodies.  The same sort of people who have nor problem paying for their rodent shit coffee to be transported from Indonesia.  Not an environmental bunch.

Though I understand that the market for this is far less developed in the US.  I know that Whole Foods bought an organic supermarket chain in the UK and are now down to one store (though they say they're going to stick it out), they said that the UK market for this sort of thing was just another world than the American one.  Here you have Waitrose, M&S, a fair few local independents and, arguably, the Coop all vying for the same middle class market with the emphasis on very good ethical food.