Someone on CSW mentioned that had the WTC towers fallen over, rather than imploded, the amount of damage and death toll would have been similar to a small nuclear weapon going off.
Seemed rather ridiculous, but then...(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.howstuffworks.com%2Fgif%2Fskyscraper-wtc.jpg&hash=32e5b63ef8be8de55a7910cdfad059bbb6b8a189)
They are really fucking big. They make other really big buildings look puny. Seems like the amount of damage they could do to Manhattan if they fell over would in fact be immense. How many other buildings would be taken out?
I expect this from Tim Berkut. Somehow tied into Lee accepting Queen Victoria's surrender at Appomatix.
The towers could not have fallen over because when the Government set the whole thing up they made sure to rig the towers for controlled collapse.
IIRC that's what the original WTC bombing was supposed to do.
A lot.
Luckily they're not falling their full height- they're hit in the middle/top so a sizable amount drops off first.
Weren't the buildings around about evacuated after they were hit?
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 12, 2009, 08:25:17 PM
I expect this from Tim Berkut. Somehow tied into Lee accepting Queen Victoria's surrender at Appomatix.
The towers could not have fallen over because when the Government set the whole thing up they made sure to rig the towers for controlled collapse.
WTF are you babbling about? Queen Victoria?
And is that really true - they were designed to collapse? That is kind of cool, I wonder how they do that...got a link or anything? Not that I don't believe you, but because I would like to know more.
I am quite sure the death toll would have been much higher. Just look at the damage to surrounding buildings caused by falling debris. Throw in that chances are it would have crushed nearby rescue personnel and watchers.
Quote from: Berkut on November 12, 2009, 08:26:59 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 12, 2009, 08:25:17 PM
I expect this from Tim Berkut. Somehow tied into Lee accepting Queen Victoria's surrender at Appomatix.
The towers could not have fallen over because when the Government set the whole thing up they made sure to rig the towers for controlled collapse.
WTF are you babbling about? Queen Victoria?
And is that really true - they were designed to collapse? That is kind of cool, I wonder how they do that...got a link or anything? Not that I don't believe you, but because I would like to know more.
I was being facetious, referring to conspiracy theories about the Feds being behind 11 September and Timmay's love for strange alternative history.
Perhaps a few hundred more rescue workers would have been killed, but that's not like a small nuke going off.
Now if there hadn't been evacuation drills conducted because of the 1st attack, than the building collapse would have killed thousands more, maybe tens of thousands.
Quote from: Strix on November 12, 2009, 08:28:06 PM
I am quite sure the death toll would have been much higher. Just look at the damage to surrounding buildings caused by falling debris. Throw in that chances are it would have crushed nearby rescue personnel and watchers.
The size of those things - they would have killed a lot more than resuce workers and watchers. They would have killed people blocks and blocks away. And a lot of people - would have seen some nasty domino effect as they took out more skyscrapers.
I doubt they'd fall over like a tree; rather, after having tipped over enough, the building structure itself would break apart. Skyscapers aren't designed to hold up very well when tilted.
It'd still cause more damage to the immediate surrounding area, though.
Quote from: Berkut on November 12, 2009, 08:31:21 PM
Quote from: Strix on November 12, 2009, 08:28:06 PM
I am quite sure the death toll would have been much higher. Just look at the damage to surrounding buildings caused by falling debris. Throw in that chances are it would have crushed nearby rescue personnel and watchers.
The size of those things - they would have killed a lot more than resuce workers and watchers. They would have killed people blocks and blocks away. And a lot of people - would have seen some nasty domino effect as they took out more skyscrapers.
I do agree with this. An entire region would have been hit by fires, street collapse, and general chaos.
Quote from: Berkut on November 12, 2009, 08:26:59 PM
And is that really true - they were designed to collapse? That is kind of cool, I wonder how they do that...got a link or anything? Not that I don't believe you, but because I would like to know more.
Here's the NIST draft report on the collapse, which doesn't seem to say anything relevant:
http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NIST_NCSTAR_1A_for_public_comment.pdf
If you think about it, though, with the incredible weight of the building, I can only imagine that any tipping would have resulted in collapse straight down as soon as the pieces leaned out.
No way. It would have been impossible to prevent any :Joos from dying if the buildings would have fallen over.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on November 12, 2009, 08:34:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 12, 2009, 08:31:21 PM
Quote from: Strix on November 12, 2009, 08:28:06 PM
I am quite sure the death toll would have been much higher. Just look at the damage to surrounding buildings caused by falling debris. Throw in that chances are it would have crushed nearby rescue personnel and watchers.
The size of those things - they would have killed a lot more than resuce workers and watchers. They would have killed people blocks and blocks away. And a lot of people - would have seen some nasty domino effect as they took out more skyscrapers.
I do agree with this. An entire region would have been hit by fires, street collapse, and general chaos.
Wouldn't it depend on direction? There aren't really many skyscrapers in the northern vicinity. Likewise with the south, although those buildings are bit taller than the northern ones. West knocks buildings into the Hudson...
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 12, 2009, 08:33:27 PM
I doubt they'd fall over like a tree; rather, after having tipped over enough, the building structure itself would break apart. Skyscapers aren't designed to hold up very well when tilted.
Haven't you seen the previews for 2012? Building can flip over and roll along the ground, smashing thousands.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on November 12, 2009, 08:45:17 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 12, 2009, 08:33:27 PM
I doubt they'd fall over like a tree; rather, after having tipped over enough, the building structure itself would break apart. Skyscapers aren't designed to hold up very well when tilted.
Haven't you seen the previews for 2012? Building can flip over and roll along the ground, smashing thousands.
Cool.
Yeah, that is a good point - you look at the buildings, and imagine them as giant stiff beams that would fall over like a log, but they probably don't really have any lateral structural strength? Just disintegrate downwards as the fell...
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on November 12, 2009, 08:45:17 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 12, 2009, 08:33:27 PM
I doubt they'd fall over like a tree; rather, after having tipped over enough, the building structure itself would break apart. Skyscapers aren't designed to hold up very well when tilted.
Haven't you seen the previews for 2012? Building can flip over and roll along the ground, smashing thousands.
It's a Disaster! :w00t:
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 12, 2009, 08:50:05 PM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on November 12, 2009, 08:45:17 PM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 12, 2009, 08:33:27 PM
I doubt they'd fall over like a tree; rather, after having tipped over enough, the building structure itself would break apart. Skyscapers aren't designed to hold up very well when tilted.
Haven't you seen the previews for 2012? Building can flip over and roll along the ground, smashing thousands.
It's a Disaster! :w00t:
Skywalker we're after!
I don't think the buildings the size and shape of WTC can actually fall over. They'd break up the moment they get any significant lean.
Quote from: Maximus on November 12, 2009, 08:26:08 PM
IIRC that's what the original WTC bombing was supposed to do.
Yeah, but as others have posted, it probably wouldn't have worked, even if the blast had been big enough.
Then he'd make a powerful ally. :menace:
more maps would need to be redrawn
Actually buildings are quite less solid than most persons believe, both laterally and vertically. If structural supports fail suddenly (for example, in controlled demolitions) not only their own weight makes them collapse instantly... but each floor crumbles into a million small pieces as it falls.
In other words, you can't topple skyscrapers, because floors and walls aren't rigid enough to transmit the strength of a impact. Rather, they disintegrate as if they were made of paper.
The WTC was about 400 meters high. Even if it fell without breaking apart, it would at best have destroyed about three more blocks. That's not the scale of a small nuke. The total destruction radius of the Hiroshima bomb was about a mile with serious destruction reaching much further.
Or... what if they crashed into Times Square on New Year's Eve? Hmm... ouch. :osama:
Quote from: Zanza on November 13, 2009, 03:18:33 AM
The WTC was about 400 meters high. Even if it fell without breaking apart, it would at best have destroyed about three more blocks. That's not the scale of a small nuke. The total destruction radius of the Hiroshima bomb was about a mile with serious destruction reaching much further.
My memory is a bit iffy on this, but if they could hit a few blocks away, they could have taken Wall Street with them.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on November 12, 2009, 08:33:27 PM
I doubt they'd fall over like a tree; rather, after having tipped over enough, the building structure itself would break apart. Skyscapers aren't designed to hold up very well when tilted.
It'd still cause more damage to the immediate surrounding area, though.
This. There would be little sideways movement vectors for the building's debris, because there would be no structure strong enough to convert much of the vertical vector to a horizontal one (unlike a tree).
Quote from: The Larch on November 13, 2009, 05:13:40 AM
My memory is a bit iffy on this, but if they could hit a few blocks away, they could have taken Wall Street with them.
That would have saved more money than it cost.
Quote from: grumbler on November 13, 2009, 07:34:36 AM
Quote from: The Larch on November 13, 2009, 05:13:40 AM
My memory is a bit iffy on this, but if they could hit a few blocks away, they could have taken Wall Street with them.
That would have saved more money than it cost.
Could Ossama have prevented the financial meltdown???
He tried his best, and was cursed for it. :cry:
Quote from: grumbler on November 13, 2009, 09:21:07 AM
He tried his best, and was cursed for it. :cry:
True genius is never understood in its own time.
Quote from: Warspite on November 13, 2009, 09:22:23 AM
True genius is never understood in its own time.
Perhaps if his attack had been a little more direct.
As has been said they couldn't have fallen over.
No need for the Towers to fell over, if the planes had struck simultaneously once everyone was at work and done it as low as possible (avoiding evacuation and accelerating collapse) the attack might have caused as many victims as a small nuclear warhead in a normal city.
What if the towers burned down, fell over, then sank into a swamp?
Quote from: PDH on November 14, 2009, 08:55:03 PM
What if the towers burned down, fell over, then sank into a swamp?
Swamp Thing would have been PISSED.
PDH it depends on whether they had been poisoned and shot four times prior to that.
What if: Isengard had defended itself better from walking trees?
Quote from: Berkut on November 13, 2009, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: grumbler on November 13, 2009, 07:34:36 AM
Quote from: The Larch on November 13, 2009, 05:13:40 AM
My memory is a bit iffy on this, but if they could hit a few blocks away, they could have taken Wall Street with them.
That would have saved more money than it cost.
Could Ossama have prevented the financial meltdown???
Wall Street is a bit of a Potemkin village. Trading on the NYSE is mostly electronic these days, and is duplicated on other exchanges anyway. And many of the big financial institutions and their service providers are in midtown - including the former Bear Stearns, although Lehman was still downtown in that time period (in fact they were next door to WTC)
Goldman was is still is headquartered on Broad Street though, so the Huffpost/Rolling Stone crowd would have been pleased.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 14, 2009, 09:24:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on November 13, 2009, 08:51:30 AM
Quote from: grumbler on November 13, 2009, 07:34:36 AM
Quote from: The Larch on November 13, 2009, 05:13:40 AM
My memory is a bit iffy on this, but if they could hit a few blocks away, they could have taken Wall Street with them.
That would have saved more money than it cost.
Could Ossama have prevented the financial meltdown???
Goldman was is still is headquartered on Broad Street
I see.
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 14, 2009, 09:03:53 PM
What if: Isengard had defended itself better from walking trees?
Then there would have not been any rohirrim at Pelennor Fields, and the whole of middle earth would have eventually fallen into Sauron's hands. It would have ended in a cold war with the elves from that island in the West were all elves were fleing to. Nuclear winter being the most likely end after intercontinental spells were used by both sides.
Quote from: Siege on November 15, 2009, 03:12:00 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on November 14, 2009, 09:03:53 PM
What if: Isengard had defended itself better from walking trees?
Then there would have not been any rohirrim at Pelennor Fields, and the whole of middle earth would have eventually fallen into Sauron's hands. It would have ended in a cold war with the elves from that island in the West were all elves were fleing to. Nuclear winter being the most likely end after intercontinental spells were used by both sides.
Wrong. Valinor is militarily superior to any possible combination of forces from Middle Earth. At some point, the Valar would simply annihilate Sauron and his armies, regardless of what happened in the War of the Ring. The main result would be the extinction of the Western races of Men, as well as hobbits and those Elvish tribes who had not yet migrated to Valinor.
Nerds.