Quote'Golden Girls' star Bea Arthur leaves $300,000 in will to NY group that helps gay homeless youths
NEWS STAFF
Tuesday, October 27th 2009, 7:04 PM
Bea Arthur left $300,000 in her will to a New York organization that aids homeless gay youth.
The Ali Fornay Center provides services to more than 1,000 each year, and is planning to buy a building to house 12 young people - and name it in honor of the "Golden Girls" actress.
The head of the center said he is thrilled with the stage and television legend's generosity.
"We work with hundreds of young people who are rejected by their families because of who they are," said Executive Director Carl Siciliano.
"We are overwhelmed with gratitude that Bea saw that LGBT youth deserve as much love and support as any other young person, and that she placed so much value in the work we do to protect them, and to help them rebuild their lives," he said.
The Ali Forney Center offers emergency shelter and transitional housing in seven residential sites in New York.
It also operates two drop-in centers offering food, clothing, medical and mental health treatment, HIV testing, treatment and prevention services, and vocational and educational assistance.
Rest in peace, Maude.
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/10/27/2009-10-27_golden_girls_star_bea_arthur_leaves_300000_in_will_.html?print=1&page=all
It is so nice to see she is giving so much money to support Middle Eastern youth.
Not Lebanese, Blanche. Lesbian.
we have a ghey thread y'know
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 11:02:37 AM
It is so nice to see she is giving so much money to support Middle Eastern youth.
Not Lebanese, Blanche. Lesbian.
:lol:
I once killed a dinner party dead when the ex in-laws talked about a Lebanese couple who moved in next door and I said, "Ah, how nice to have women who love each other as neighbours"
Sounds like a better time than ever to be gay if you're homeless.
Strange stuff.
I think this is very important for such centres to be active. GLBT social aid has been focusing on helping AIDS sufferers, which is all well and good, but I suppose that the most improvement/life saving can be done with kids like this especially who end up being kicked out of their homes for being gay and find themselves on the street, turning to prostitution, drug abuse, depression etc. This way they can be saved, rather than helped only after they have been hurt. :)
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 11:29:18 AM
I think this is very important for such centres to be active. GLBT social aid has been focusing on helping AIDS sufferers, which is all well and good, but I suppose that the most improvement/life saving can be done with kids like this especially who end up being kicked out of their homes for being gay and find themselves on the street, turning to prostitution, drug abuse, depression etc. This way they can be saved, rather than helped only after they have been hurt. :)
Especially since they, or so I have heard, will just leave their hometowns and go to a city like NYC or SF where the cost of living is sky high.
Not that I begrudge Bea Arthur's generosity, far from it - but why the need for a gay youth shelter? Why not just a youth shelter - or even just a shelter?
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 11:38:54 AM
Not that I begrudge Bea Arthur's generosity, far from it - but why the need for a gay youth shelter? Why not just a youth shelter - or even just a shelter?
A huge part of her fanbase was gay, and she was always very appreciative of their support and publicly supportive of gays even before it was 'cool' to love gays in Hollywood. While I agree with you, this particular gift isn't surprising given all of that background.
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 11:29:18 AM
I think this is very important for such centres to be active.
Shock!!
Quote from: Viking on October 29, 2009, 11:02:55 AM
we have a ghey thread y'know
Everyone knew he would never limit gay news to one thread
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 11:38:54 AM
Not that I begrudge Bea Arthur's generosity, far from it - but why the need for a gay youth shelter? Why not just a youth shelter - or even just a shelter?
My thoughts too.
Sure, a lot of the homeless youths will be there because they were gay and felt ostrasized in their shitty little rural communities but...so what?
Why give them special treatment.
Quote from: Tyr on October 29, 2009, 12:14:07 PM
Why give them special treatment.
That's pretty much Marty's agenda.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 11:38:54 AM
Not that I begrudge Bea Arthur's generosity, far from it - but why the need for a gay youth shelter? Why not just a youth shelter - or even just a shelter?
Because noone gives to causes like this. Everyone gives to the mainstream causes, and hardly anyone to causes that are more controversial.
Or are you questioning a need for having a shelter for gay youth?
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:31:15 PM
Or are you questioning a need for having a shelter for gay youth?
I don't think he is questioning the need for having shelter for gays of any age. He only was curious whether an organization devoted to the homeless in general is not sufficient.
Quote from: Tyr on October 29, 2009, 12:14:07 PM
Why give them special treatment.
Because a lot of these centers are run by religious organisations who are hostile to gay people, and will likely send a message to these kids that it is wrong to be gay, resulting in the gay kids either resenting the center (even if they are not kicked out of it outright) or having to resent themselves.
Even those that do not openly preach anti-gay hate, are not prepared to deal with particular issues related to gay youths in situations like this. There is a reason why suicide rates are so high among gay youths - having to deal with rejection, the stress of coming out, self-hatred etc. can be quite difficult and you need specially trained people to address - it is quite different to situations when a kid just runs away from home because the father is an alcoholic.
Not to mention heterosexual kids who usually end up in centres for homeless youths are not exactly among the most gay-friendly and tolerant people - gay and (even more) transgender kids ending up in such places could meet with abuse or even violence.
It's amazing how oblivious you heteros are to the number of special dangers and problems coming-of-age GLBT people are facing.
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 12:33:21 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:31:15 PM
Or are you questioning a need for having a shelter for gay youth?
I don't think he is questioning the need for having shelter for gays of any age. He only was curious whether an organization devoted to the homeless in general is not sufficient.
Well then I already answered that concern, I think. And the guy from the centre answers that in the article as well. I answered the second objection ("why have youth centers specifically for gay people") in my response to Tyr.
Do you agree or disagree with my points?
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:31:15 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 11:38:54 AM
Not that I begrudge Bea Arthur's generosity, far from it - but why the need for a gay youth shelter? Why not just a youth shelter - or even just a shelter?
Because noone gives to causes like this. Everyone gives to the mainstream causes, and hardly anyone to causes that are more controversial.
Or are you questioning a need for having a shelter for gay youth?
I actually doubt that. A gay youth shelter is far more trendy and probably gets much more support than a shelter for more typical homeless people (i.e. smelly old drunks).
I was wondering why not have just a youth homeless shelter. Why turn away straight kids?
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:41:01 PM
I was wondering why not have just a youth homeless shelter. Why turn away straight kids?
See my post in response to Tyr.
As to why not approach it from the different side (i.e. have a centre run by the same people, and preparing to deal with special issues of GLBT youths, but open to non-GLBT youths), I doubt this centre would turn away a non-GLBT youth willing to find shelter there. But I also doubt that such youths would be willing to go to the "queer" centre.
Essentially, centres like this advertise as centres for "GLBT youths" to let GLBT youths know they will be welcome there and that they will be prepared to address special psychological needs of such kids - not that they are offlimits to the hetero youths.
Satisfied?
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:41:01 PM
I actually doubt that. A gay youth shelter is far more trendy and probably gets much more support than a shelter for more typical homeless people (i.e. smelly old drunks).
I bet it has an awesome sound system and interior design.
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:36:39 PM
Do you agree or disagree with my points?
I have no particular opinion I was just clarifying what BB's issue was.
It is a charity. I tend to not quible over details if they want to help a particular group. Every gay person this group helps means there is one less person for other charities/public agencies to help and that is a good thing.
The whole existance of separate gay organizations and culture does fill me with a bit of shame and embarrasment but it is not the gays fault they have to have them.
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 12:33:21 PM
I don't think he is questioning the need for having shelter for gays of any age. He only was curious whether an organization devoted to the homeless in general is not sufficient.
That might make sense if her donation was an infinite amount of money. However she did not have such to give and gave 300,000 dollars. I think it would be better to target a small demographic of individuals with that as you can provide better quality support to a few, rather than the masses.
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:34:56 PM
Not to mention heterosexual kids who usually end up in centres for homeless youths are not exactly among the most gay-friendly and tolerant people - gay and (even more) transgender kids ending up in such places could meet with abuse or even violence.
I had no idea. My impression from all the kids on the streets movies I've seen was that all of them were sucking dick for money.
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 12:44:13 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:36:39 PM
Do you agree or disagree with my points?
I have no particular opinion I was just clarifying what BB's issue was.
It is a charity. I tend to not quible over details if they want to help a particular group. Every gay person this group helps means there is one less person for other charities/public agencies to help and that is a good thing.
The whole existance of separate gay organizations and culture does fill me with a bit of shame and embarrasment but it is not the gays fault they have to have them.
As I said, I doubt this place is non-hetero-inclusive - I would be really surprised they'd turn away a hetero kid looking for help.
It's just that noone else is making an effort to reach out to GLBT kids specifically - who are not just suffering the trauma of being homeless, but also the trauma of their families, churches and (to a less extent under Obama) government telling them they are dirty, immoral and inferior because of who they are.
Do you really think an openly gay or a transgendered homeless kid would have an easy time in a "mainstream" youth centre?
Quote from: garbon on October 29, 2009, 12:46:16 PM
I think it would be better to target a small demographic of individuals with that as you can provide better quality support to a few, rather than the masses.
Almost every charity I have ever volunteered for tends to have specific targets anyway. You just get overwhelmed when you start trying to help everybody. I just recently spent a day working for this group that fixes up houses for elderly minority people in old East Austin. That is pretty specific, nothing against young white people but logistically you simply have to have a narrow focus to be effective.
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:47:48 PM
It's just that noone else is making an effort to reach out to GLBT kids specifically - who are not just suffering the trauma of being homeless, but also the trauma of their families, churches and (to a less extent under Obama) government telling them they are dirty, immoral and inferior because of who they are.
Do you really think an openly gay or a transgendered homeless kid would have an easy time in a "mainstream" youth centre?
Didn't I just say that? I find the necessity of having separate gay institutions and society deeply shameful because it is a result of their ostracism.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 29, 2009, 12:46:36 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:34:56 PM
Not to mention heterosexual kids who usually end up in centres for homeless youths are not exactly among the most gay-friendly and tolerant people - gay and (even more) transgender kids ending up in such places could meet with abuse or even violence.
I had no idea. My impression from all the kids on the streets movies I've seen was that all of them were sucking dick for money.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 12:50:15 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:47:48 PM
It's just that noone else is making an effort to reach out to GLBT kids specifically - who are not just suffering the trauma of being homeless, but also the trauma of their families, churches and (to a less extent under Obama) government telling them they are dirty, immoral and inferior because of who they are.
Do you really think an openly gay or a transgendered homeless kid would have an easy time in a "mainstream" youth centre?
Didn't I just say that? I find the necessity of having separate gay institutions and society deeply shameful because it is a result of their ostracism.
Ok, good. I was clarifying more for the others' benefit, tbh. :)
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 12:48:51 PM
Almost every charity I have ever volunteered for tends to have specific targets anyway. You just get overwhelmed when you start trying to help everybody. I just recently spent a day working for this group that fixes up houses for elderly minority people in old East Austin. That is pretty specific, nothing against young white people but logistically you simply have to have a narrow focus to be effective.
So then what's the issue? :unsure:
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:31:15 PM
Or are you questioning a need for having a shelter for gay youth?
I am :)
You say you want your kind to feel like they are part of society, aren't thought of differently, etc. but then you support something like this that furthers their, ehm, 'apartness'.
Quote from: garbon on October 29, 2009, 12:51:11 PM
So then what's the issue? :unsure:
I don't have one. I thought I was simply making sure Marty understood what BB was trying to say :P
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 12:52:43 PM
I don't have one. I thought I was simply making sure Marty understood what BB was trying to say :P
Yeah but BB's issue seems ridiculous. It is pretty clear that 300,000k for a general homeless charity would not be sufficient.
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:34:56 PM
Because a lot of these centers are run by religious organisations who are hostile to gay people, and will likely send a message to these kids that it is wrong to be gay, resulting in the gay kids either resenting the center (even if they are not kicked out of it outright) or having to resent themselves.
You have a source for that?
Yes a lot of shelters are run by religious organizations - namely the Salvation Army. But they absolutely do not kick out people for being gay, and in fact do very little to proselytize. I'd be shocked to find absolutely any homeless shelter either refuse service to a gay youth or say a single negative word to them.
Marty I in fact deal with youth homeless issues pretty routinely as a part of my work. And I find that we have an issue with over-specialization of services. For example we have some great services here for youths with FASD, but not for other mental deficits.
As a homeless youth it is better to have a number of more generic shelters that are easy to find, than a number of distinct and specialized shelters. Last thing you want is for some kid to turn up on the doorstep and be told "Oh sorry, this is the shelter for african-american lesbian homeless youth. You want the shelter for asian-american transgendered homeless youth. It's on the other side of town".
I think you perceive an anti-gay message in my comment when there isn't one. Gay people are people first and foremost, and nobody regardless of sexual orientation should be out on the streets.
And I don't mean to disparage Ms. Arthur's bequest. Certainly not.
Quote from: garbon on October 29, 2009, 12:53:48 PM
Yeah but BB's issue seems ridiculous. It is pretty clear that 300,000k for a general homeless charity would not be sufficient.
I am sure any charity would be more than delighted to recieve a donation of that size. She was only donating to this center she was not starting it up.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:54:41 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:34:56 PM
Because a lot of these centers are run by religious organisations who are hostile to gay people, and will likely send a message to these kids that it is wrong to be gay, resulting in the gay kids either resenting the center (even if they are not kicked out of it outright) or having to resent themselves.
You have a source for that?
Yes a lot of shelters are run by religious organizations - namely the Salvation Army. But they absolutely do not kick out people for being gay, and in fact do very little to proselytize. I'd be shocked to find absolutely any homeless shelter either refuse service to a gay youth or say a single negative word to them.
Marty I in fact deal with youth homeless issues pretty routinely as a part of my work. And I find that we have an issue with over-specialization of services. For example we have some great services here for youths with FASD, but not for other mental deficits.
As a homeless youth it is better to have a number of more generic shelters that are easy to find, than a number of distinct and specialized shelters. Last thing you want is for some kid to turn up on the doorstep and be told "Oh sorry, this is the shelter for african-american lesbian homeless youth. You want the shelter for asian-american transgendered homeless youth. It's on the other side of town".
I think you perceive an anti-gay message in my comment when there isn't one. Gay people are people first and foremost, and nobody regardless of sexual orientation should be out on the streets.
And I don't mean to disparage Ms. Arthur's bequest. Certainly not.
The part was just one leg of the three leg of my post - I agree it is probably less of the concern that the other two.
I wish (and I know I am guilty of this myself) people would actually read through the thread first and then respond, rather than respond to posts made way back, by raising concerns and questions that have already been addressed.
Essentially, you are arguing a strawman, as I explained in the subsequent posts.
Quote from: garbon on October 29, 2009, 12:53:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 12:52:43 PM
I don't have one. I thought I was simply making sure Marty understood what BB was trying to say :P
Yeah but BB's issue seems ridiculous. It is pretty clear that 300,000k for a general homeless charity would not be sufficient.
No amount for any group is ever sufficient. But I'm pretty sure the Salvation Army could do a lot with $300,000, for example.
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 12:55:29 PM
I am sure any charity would be more than delighted to recieve a donation of that size. She was only donating to this center she was not starting it up.
Yes but to a specialized charity. A general homeless kid charity would likely not be able to do as much good per kid they help.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:58:08 PM
Quote from: garbon on October 29, 2009, 12:53:48 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 12:52:43 PM
I don't have one. I thought I was simply making sure Marty understood what BB was trying to say :P
Yeah but BB's issue seems ridiculous. It is pretty clear that 300,000k for a general homeless charity would not be sufficient.
No amount for any group is ever sufficient. But I'm pretty sure the Salvation Army could do a lot with $300,000, for example.
I think this line of reasoning is pretty fallacious. Unless you actually believe that a GLBT youth centre is unnecessary, then you could essentially make this argument against any charitable donation - because you could always find a "more worthy cause".
Why give money to a shelter for homeless animals if you could give it to war veterans? Why given money to war veterans, if you could give them to children suffering from leukemia. And so on.
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:57:06 PM
The part was just one leg of the three leg of my post - I agree it is probably less of the concern that the other two.
I wish (and I know I am guilty of this myself) people would actually read through the thread first and then respond, rather than respond to posts made way back, by raising concerns and questions that have already been addressed.
Essentially, you are arguing a strawman, as I explained in the subsequent posts.
I've read every post in this thread, but can only reply so quickly.
That one of three legs of your argument isn't just the least important, it's downright false. No charity would ever turn away a gay youth.
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 01:00:34 PM
I think this line of reasoning is pretty fallacious. Unless you actually believe that a GLBT youth centre is unnecessary, then you could essentially make this argument against any charitable donation - because you could always find a "more worthy cause".
Why give money to a shelter for homeless animals if you could give it to war veterans? Why given money to war veterans, if you could give them to children suffering from leukemia. And so on.
You're right, which is why I'm not making the argument that some other charity is "more worthy" than another.
I am only making the argument that we should not provide overly-specialized services and should try to keep them open to serve as many people as possible.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 01:01:13 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 12:57:06 PM
The part was just one leg of the three leg of my post - I agree it is probably less of the concern that the other two.
I wish (and I know I am guilty of this myself) people would actually read through the thread first and then respond, rather than respond to posts made way back, by raising concerns and questions that have already been addressed.
Essentially, you are arguing a strawman, as I explained in the subsequent posts.
I've read every post in this thread, but can only reply so quickly.
That one of three legs of your argument isn't just the least important, it's downright false. No charity would ever turn away a gay youth.
I didn't say they would turn him away - but he wouldn't get a "it's ok to be gay" message in ALL of them either, no?
Self-acceptance is a significant part of a healing process for any gay youth, especially one that has been kicked out of his home by parents who think being gay is a sin. Having to stay in a place run by an organization that considers it a sin to be gay as well is not going to be exactly helpful either.
Quote from: garbon on October 29, 2009, 12:59:01 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 29, 2009, 12:55:29 PM
I am sure any charity would be more than delighted to recieve a donation of that size. She was only donating to this center she was not starting it up.
Yes but to a specialized charity. A general homeless kid charity would likely not be able to do as much good per kid they help.
The downside to that then is you may be able to do more for the kids you can help, but you are helping fewer kids. IT's great for those that can get in, not so good for those who aren't.
Again that's an issue I deal with. We have some great services for, say residential alcohol treatment. And a 6 month waiting list to go to it.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 01:03:22 PM
should try to keep them open to serve as many people as possible.
Why? With the scarcity of funds, we can't save them all. Better to a smaller amount than give pittance to the masses.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 01:03:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 01:00:34 PM
I think this line of reasoning is pretty fallacious. Unless you actually believe that a GLBT youth centre is unnecessary, then you could essentially make this argument against any charitable donation - because you could always find a "more worthy cause".
Why give money to a shelter for homeless animals if you could give it to war veterans? Why given money to war veterans, if you could give them to children suffering from leukemia. And so on.
You're right, which is why I'm not making the argument that some other charity is "more worthy" than another.
I am only making the argument that we should not provide overly-specialized services and should try to keep them open to serve as many people as possible.
BB, you said you had dealings with homeless youths. Considering you are a state prosecutor, I can guess at the nature of these dealings, but just in case let me ask - are these kids usually well-adjusted, socially-adapted, tolerant and open-minded?
Even in a centre which does not preach a religious anti-gay message do you think such kids would be welcoming, accepting and supportive of a "queer" kid in their midst?
As I said, I very much doubt a "queer youth" centre would turn away a hetero youth seeking help. They are there because queer kids are ostracized and would have a very hard time in a "normal" centre.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 01:03:22 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 01:00:34 PM
I think this line of reasoning is pretty fallacious. Unless you actually believe that a GLBT youth centre is unnecessary, then you could essentially make this argument against any charitable donation - because you could always find a "more worthy cause".
Why give money to a shelter for homeless animals if you could give it to war veterans? Why given money to war veterans, if you could give them to children suffering from leukemia. And so on.
You're right, which is why I'm not making the argument that some other charity is "more worthy" than another.
I am only making the argument that we should not provide overly-specialized services and should try to keep them open to serve as many people as possible.
But "normal" youths centres are not prepared to deal with issues of queer kids - I don't have statistics handy but I believe queer kids tend to run away from such centres, because they meet with abuse and violence from non-queer kids (even in the absence of actually anti-gay message of the organization running the centre).
So the question is not whether to help both queer and non-queer kids in a non-queer centre vs. helping just queer kids in a queer centre; it's whether to help non-queer kids in a non-queer centre or queer kids in a queer centre - that's the counterfactual here.
While definitely there are more non-queer kids out there (though a percentage of queer homeless kids among homeless kids is definitely higher than the percentage of queers in the general populace), if we adopted your line of reasoning, noone would help queer kids at all and they would stay in the streets.
Gay youth shelter? What's Grallon's place for? :huh:
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 01:04:28 PM
I didn't say they would turn him away - but he wouldn't get a "it's ok to be gay" message in ALL of them either, no?
Self-acceptance is a significant part of a healing process for any gay youth, especially one that has been kicked out of his home by parents who think being gay is a sin. Having to stay in a place run by an organization that considers it a sin to be gay as well is not going to be exactly helpful either.
Direct them to one of the many "its okay to be gay" services then. I know they exist, and I'm not disparaging them in any way.
The issues of being homeless however are somewhat distinct from the issues of being gay.
Quote from: The Brain on October 29, 2009, 01:14:47 PM
Gay youth shelter? What's Grallon's place for? :huh:
:XD:
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 01:16:09 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 01:04:28 PM
I didn't say they would turn him away - but he wouldn't get a "it's ok to be gay" message in ALL of them either, no?
Self-acceptance is a significant part of a healing process for any gay youth, especially one that has been kicked out of his home by parents who think being gay is a sin. Having to stay in a place run by an organization that considers it a sin to be gay as well is not going to be exactly helpful either.
Direct them to one of the many "its okay to be gay" services then. I know they exist, and I'm not disparaging them in any way.
The issues of being homeless however are somewhat distinct from the issues of being gay.
Ok I guess it's a question of misunderstanding then - the centre we are talking about here is one of the "it's okay to be gay" centres. As I said, I'm willing to bet it wouldn't turn away non-gay youths.
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 01:32:27 PM
Ok I guess it's a question of misunderstanding then - the centre we are talking about here is one of the "it's okay to be gay" centres. As I said, I'm willing to bet it wouldn't turn away non-gay youths.
Yeah, but I bet the non-gay kids would get harassed by the gay ones there.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:41:01 PM
I actually doubt that. A gay youth shelter is far more trendy and probably gets much more support than a shelter for more typical homeless people (i.e. smelly old drunks).
I was wondering why not have just a youth homeless shelter. Why turn away straight kids?
Gay kids are far, far more likely to be homeless, often after coming out (or being outed) to their parents. And they often have the psychological issues that come with that.
http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org/RG-homeless.html
http://gaylife.about.com/od/headlinesnewsstories/a/glbthomeless.htm
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 06:11:41 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:41:01 PM
I actually doubt that. A gay youth shelter is far more trendy and probably gets much more support than a shelter for more typical homeless people (i.e. smelly old drunks).
I was wondering why not have just a youth homeless shelter. Why turn away straight kids?
Gay kids are far, far more likely to be homeless, often after coming out (or being outed) to their parents. And they often have the psychological issues that come with that.
http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org/RG-homeless.html
http://gaylife.about.com/od/headlinesnewsstories/a/glbthomeless.htm
I'm not disputing that in the slightest.
What I was questioning is whether it is a better strategy to build separate and distinct homeless shelters for distinct groups, or to make more broad-based homeless shelters.
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 06:28:44 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 06:11:41 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:41:01 PM
I actually doubt that. A gay youth shelter is far more trendy and probably gets much more support than a shelter for more typical homeless people (i.e. smelly old drunks).
I was wondering why not have just a youth homeless shelter. Why turn away straight kids?
Gay kids are far, far more likely to be homeless, often after coming out (or being outed) to their parents. And they often have the psychological issues that come with that.
http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org/RG-homeless.html
http://gaylife.about.com/od/headlinesnewsstories/a/glbthomeless.htm
I'm not disputing that in the slightest.
What I was questioning is whether it is a better strategy to build separate and distinct homeless shelters for distinct groups, or to make more broad-based homeless shelters.
In a more mainstream situation (like schools) I would share your view (simply because it is better to integrate than to segregate) but here we are talking about kids with significant traumatic experiences that require a special approach and that could be harmed by exposure to the "real world", with its homophobia etc.
We are not talking here about kids that got involved in juvenile crimes and ran away, or even kids from broken homes, but kids from "normal" homes, who came out (or were outed) and were kicked out by their "normal" parents and closest families for being "monsters", "perverts" and "abominations". They have different needs and different socio-psychological make-up. They don't require reintegration into the society as much as they require a nurturing and accepting environment.
Where do you get these generalizations on gay homeless kids from? :huh:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 29, 2009, 07:20:22 PM
Where do you get these generalizations on gay homeless kids from? :huh:
What generalizations? I provided a couple of links discussing the topic; you have google.
I would have had the cash buried with me.
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 07:26:22 PM
What generalizations? I provided a couple of links discussing the topic; you have google.
My post was meant for Marty.
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 29, 2009, 07:29:35 PM
I would have had the cash buried with me.
I'd have your mom buried with me.
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 10:43:53 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on October 29, 2009, 07:29:35 PM
I would have had the cash buried with me.
I'd have your mom buried with me.
and that's is why you outclass mart.
Quote from: derspiess on October 29, 2009, 12:52:35 PM
You say you want your kind to feel like they are part of society, aren't thought of differently, etc. but then you support something like this that furthers their, ehm, 'apartness'.
Wow. Epic fail, man.
A lot of this thread is epic fail. If unfair treatment of GLBT youth is so abhorrent, then why not devote more funds and energy toward mainstreaming them so that they can be comfortable in typical youth shelters; why exacerbate the situation by segregating them more?
Quote from: DontSayBanana on October 29, 2009, 11:50:00 PM
A lot of this thread is epic fail. If unfair treatment of GLBT youth is so abhorrent, then why not devote more funds and energy toward mainstreaming them so that they can be comfortable in typical youth shelters; why exacerbate the situation by segregating them more?
I thought I have been trying to explain this for the last two pages. The only epic fail here is apparently your reading comprehension.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on October 29, 2009, 07:40:21 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 07:26:22 PM
What generalizations? I provided a couple of links discussing the topic; you have google.
My post was meant for Marty.
I am just saying the same stuff Faeelin's links say (have you bothered following them?). I also follow a number of gay rights advocacy publications, websites etc. and these topics are often discussed in them. There is a lot of testimonies floating around both from homeless gay kids and people who run these centres (many of whom had been homeless gay kids themselves).
I also don't think anything I said is so extraordinary or incredible.
Quote from: Martinus on October 29, 2009, 06:35:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 06:28:44 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 06:11:41 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 29, 2009, 12:41:01 PM
I actually doubt that. A gay youth shelter is far more trendy and probably gets much more support than a shelter for more typical homeless people (i.e. smelly old drunks).
I was wondering why not have just a youth homeless shelter. Why turn away straight kids?
Gay kids are far, far more likely to be homeless, often after coming out (or being outed) to their parents. And they often have the psychological issues that come with that.
http://www.safeschoolscoalition.org/RG-homeless.html
http://gaylife.about.com/od/headlinesnewsstories/a/glbthomeless.htm
I'm not disputing that in the slightest.
What I was questioning is whether it is a better strategy to build separate and distinct homeless shelters for distinct groups, or to make more broad-based homeless shelters.
In a more mainstream situation (like schools) I would share your view (simply because it is better to integrate than to segregate) but here we are talking about kids with significant traumatic experiences that require a special approach and that could be harmed by exposure to the "real world", with its homophobia etc.
We are not talking here about kids that got involved in juvenile crimes and ran away, or even kids from broken homes, but kids from "normal" homes, who came out (or were outed) and were kicked out by their "normal" parents and closest families for being "monsters", "perverts" and "abominations". They have different needs and different socio-psychological make-up.
How would they make sure that the kids they take were told they were "monsters" and such?
What about gay kids who are homeless for all the reasons that non-gay kids become homeless, like they just don't like their parents or something? Or they are dumbasses?
I have no problem with gay homeless shelters (make sure some of that $300k goes to condoms though), but I find the idea that gay homeless kids are certainly the result of persecution to some greater extent than non-gay homeless kids a bit self serving.
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 11:11:31 AM
I find the idea that gay homeless kids are certainly the result of persecution to some greater extent than non-gay homeless kids a bit self serving.
That seems to be a logical consequence of just a few assumptions:
1) Gay kids are randomly distributed across households.
2) Persecution drives some children to homelessness across the spectrum.
3) Some households react poorly to gay children, causing additional homelessness.
In addition, while I haven't read the full study:
QuoteA recent study from the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force stated that as many as 40 percent of homeless youth identify as LGBT.
QuoteIn one study, 26 percent of gay teens who came out to their parents/guardians were told they must leave home
http://www.thetaskforce.org/reports_and_research/homeless_youth
I am sure the LGBT community would never over-report their numbers.
And I would imagine that somewhere near 100% of homeless kids have some kind of sob story for why they are homeless, many of which would involve them being kicked out.
I don't doubt that there is more, but I would like to see some data from a group that isn't motivated to see a particular result from their "study".
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:07:40 PM
I am sure the LGBT community would never over-report their numbers.
Overreport or not, that gives you a solid causal chain for "more" LGBT kids being homeless than non-LGBT.
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:07:40 PM
I don't doubt that there is more, but I would like to see some data from a group that isn't motivated to see a particular result from their "study".
Surveys aren't free, and I'm not sure who else would care to fund the study?
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 11:17:00 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 29, 2009, 12:52:35 PM
You say you want your kind to feel like they are part of society, aren't thought of differently, etc. but then you support something like this that furthers their, ehm, 'apartness'.
Wow. Epic fail, man.
Sorry, I just don't get whatever subtle nuance there is that makes those two things congruent.
Quote from: ulmont on October 30, 2009, 12:15:21 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:07:40 PM
I am sure the LGBT community would never over-report their numbers.
Overreport or not, that gives you a solid causal chain for "more" LGBT kids being homeless than non-LGBT.
Never disputed more, just disputed the idea that there were so many more that they could not possibly be handled absent special facilities for them. Marty makes it sound like there are LOTS more, or that almsot all homeless gays are victims of persecution, much more so than non-gays.
It may very well be true - but he hasn't provided any reason to think so.
Quote
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:07:40 PM
I don't doubt that there is more, but I would like to see some data from a group that isn't motivated to see a particular result from their "study".
Surveys aren't free, and I'm not sure who else would care to fund the study?
I don't know, but that doesn't mean that this study is credible.
40% of homeless are LGBT? Why? that result alone is pretty suspect. It is so much higher than expected it strikes me as rather odd. Why would homeless kids have what, 8-10x the normal population of gays?
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:26:56 PM
Never disputed more, just disputed the idea that there were so many more that they could not possibly be handled absent special facilities for them
Your quote just said "to some greater extent":
Quote from: BerkutI find the idea that gay homeless kids are certainly the result of persecution to some greater extent than non-gay homeless kids a bit self serving.
Quote from: Berkut40% of homeless are LGBT? Why? that result alone is pretty suspect. It is so much higher than expected it strikes me as rather odd. Why would homeless kids have what, 8-10x the normal population of gays?
Well, the "26% got thrown out of their house" number gives a pretty clear causal link.
Quote from: ulmont on October 30, 2009, 12:29:29 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:26:56 PM
Never disputed more, just disputed the idea that there were so many more that they could not possibly be handled absent special facilities for them
Your quote just said "to some greater extent":
Quote from: BerkutI find the idea that gay homeless kids are certainly the result of persecution to some greater extent than non-gay homeless kids a bit self serving.
Sorry, I should have been more clear - I mean to some MUCH greater extent.
Quote
Quote from: Berkut40% of homeless are LGBT? Why? that result alone is pretty suspect. It is so much higher than expected it strikes me as rather odd. Why would homeless kids have what, 8-10x the normal population of gays?
Well, the "26% got thrown out of their house" number gives a pretty clear causal link.
Sure, if you accept one likely bogus number to explain the other likely bogus number.
I don't buy either of them, nor do I accept the premise. Again, I could be wrong, and would like so see some unbiased source. Did the study examine homeless gays in places like, say, Tucson Arizona?
Or did they stick to New York and San Francisco?
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:33:10 PM
Did the study examine homeless gays in places like, say, Tucson Arizona?
Or did they stick to New York and San Francisco?
It was not just New York and San Francisco; Decatur, Illinois and other not-so-stunning locales were mentioned as well.
There is going to be a hellish amount of uncertainty in these numbers, though. Since the number of LGBT people is uncertain at best (cf previous threads) and the number of homeless people is uncertain at best, the number of LGBT homeless is going to square the uncertainty.
Quote from: derspiess on October 30, 2009, 12:18:53 PM
Quote from: Faeelin on October 29, 2009, 11:17:00 PM
Quote from: derspiess on October 29, 2009, 12:52:35 PM
You say you want your kind to feel like they are part of society, aren't thought of differently, etc. but then you support something like this that furthers their, ehm, 'apartness'.
Wow. Epic fail, man.
Sorry, I just don't get whatever subtle nuance there is that makes those two things congruent.
"You think that gay and lesbian homeless youth might have different issues than normal homeless youth? Somehow, this makes you believe that gays and lesbians should be part of society hypocritical."
I said the initial post while drunk, but I stand by it.
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:07:40 PM
I am sure the LGBT community would never over-report their numbers.
And I would imagine that somewhere near 100% of homeless kids have some kind of sob story for why they are homeless, many of which would involve them being kicked out.
I don't doubt that there is more, but I would like to see some data from a group that isn't motivated to see a particular result from their "study".
'
Quote
Many experts estimate that while gay men and lesbians make up 3 percent to 5 percent of the general population, more than 20 percent of homeless youths under age 21 in many urban areas are gay, according to recent surveys of street youths and shelter workers published in peer-reviewed academic journals, and a study released in January by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force and the National Coalition for the Homeless.
In an eight-city study published in The Child Welfare Journal last year, Mr. Van Leeuwen and others found that gay homeless youths were more than twice as likely to have attempted suicide while living on the streets than heterosexual homeless youths. The data drew from surveys conducted in 2004 of homeless youths in Austin, Tex.; Boulder, Colo.; Chicago; Colorado Springs; Denver; Minneapolis; Salt Lake City; and St. Louis
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/17/us/17homeless.html
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20070307Seattle_Study_LGBT_youth.pdf
2nd link is from the American Journal of Public Health.
I'd suggest reading the ny times article in general.
Quote from: ulmont on October 30, 2009, 12:00:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 11:11:31 AM
I find the idea that gay homeless kids are certainly the result of persecution to some greater extent than non-gay homeless kids a bit self serving.
That seems to be a logical consequence of just a few assumptions:
1) Gay kids are randomly distributed across households.
2) Persecution drives some children to homelessness across the spectrum.
3) Some households react poorly to gay children, causing additional homelessness.
In addition, while I haven't read the full study:
QuoteA recent study from the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force stated that as many as 40 percent of homeless youth identify as LGBT.
QuoteIn one study, 26 percent of gay teens who came out to their parents/guardians were told they must leave home
http://www.thetaskforce.org/reports_and_research/homeless_youth
This makes a certain amount of intuitive sense.
Assuming that being gay is to a degree a random occurance, a certain percentage of gay kids are bound to grow up with parents who are solidly homophobic, with bad results.
One thing I'll give my parents credit for - while they are by no means homophobic (quite the reverse), if they were, and I or one of my brothers were gay, they would change their opinion on that very quickly - their kids were more important to them than their prejudices.
I'd love to see the reaction to a homeless shelter for white homeless youth. :D
Berkut, why do you feel a need to challenge these results for such a long time? Do you have a personal stake in this somehow? I mean, I don't think you are challenging the fact that gay kids become homeless and that they are more likely to be homeless due to their parents homophobia. Even assuming that the numbers are inflated, what is it to you? I mean, you can't say one way or another - you have no research or experience to say that any other number would be correct.
So all you are doing is looking at an existing research, shake your head and say "Uhm, I'm still not convinced this is right."
Frankly, I can't think of a good psychological explanation for that behaviour other than homophobia.
It could be homophobia. Or it could be normal old skepticism at fishy data.
You are so stereotypical though - "Believe my silly data, or you are a homophobe!" It is right up there with "But into Obama's healthcare plan, or you are a racist!"
Mart's histrionic gland is enlarged in fury.
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:07:40 PM
I don't doubt that there is more, but I would like to see some data from a group that isn't motivated to see a particular result from their "study".
My data sample is a bit small, but here you go: Out of a total of one (1) guys kicked out of their homes as teens, all (1) were gay, their parents having failed to come to terms with the news.
He was a German in my first EVE corp during beta. Nice guy, disappeared suddenly. A few weeks later he logged in from a café to say goodbye. Last I knew he had dropped out from high school to pay the bills. Pity, he was a fairly smart kid.
Quote from: Iormlund on October 31, 2009, 01:46:24 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 30, 2009, 12:07:40 PM
I don't doubt that there is more, but I would like to see some data from a group that isn't motivated to see a particular result from their "study".
My data sample is a bit small, but here you go: Out of a total of one (1) guys kicked out of their homes as teens, all (1) were gay, their parents having failed to come to terms with the news.
He was a German in my first EVE corp during beta. Nice guy, disappeared suddenly. A few weeks later he logged in from a café to say goodbye. Last I knew he had dropped out from high school to pay the bills. Pity, he was a fairly smart kid.
Out of all the people I know who either left home or were kicked out of the house, I don't know that any of them are gay.
Of course, I was in freaking Kansas at the time that I knew people of the "bailing on home" age, so its not like they would admit to being gay anyway. The only two gays guys I knew well though were certainly not kicked out of their home.