The Israeli military's conduct of this 'war' is absolutely pathetic. There should be consequences for the thousands and thousands of deaths from war crimes, but there wont be, or any justice for the innocents killed. Boils my blood.
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 12, 2025, 11:00:12 AMThe Israeli military's conduct of this 'war' is absolutely pathetic. There should be consequences for the thousands and thousands of deaths from war crimes, but there wont be, or any justice for the innocents killed. Boils my blood.
Yep. Open season on civilians I guess.
And they are ethnically cleansing parts of Gaza as we speak.
Good to see you again Alci.
:rolleyes: You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them. What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade? I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 01:24:19 PM:rolleyes: You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them. What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade? I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.
I never used the word "genocide". Killing civilians is still bad. I hope that insane notion doesn't upset you too much.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 01:24:19 PM:rolleyes: You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them. What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade? I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.
I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.
Quote from: Valmy on April 12, 2025, 02:18:54 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 01:24:19 PM:rolleyes: You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them. What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade? I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.
I never used the word "genocide". Killing civilians is still bad. I hope that insane notion doesn't upset you too much.
There are some people with whom it is impossible to reason. "You'd think if the Nazis were targeting Jews they would have gotten more of them," or whatever the current equivalent argument is, isn't an intellectual argument.
Alci is correct that there have been war crimes, and that the Israelis responsible will never have to face justice. While that is also true for some Hamas leaders, it doesn't excuse the IDF crimes.
You know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago. Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal. Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.
Quote from: mongers on April 12, 2025, 03:14:33 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 01:24:19 PM:rolleyes: You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them. What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade? I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.
I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.
I'm sure you would have done a 180 if he had said something different. :rolleyes:
Quote from: mongers on April 12, 2025, 03:14:33 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 01:24:19 PM:rolleyes: You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them. What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade? I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.
I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.
Thank you for keeping us updated on who's doing your thinking for you.
There are gradations of potential truth that lie between "the Israelis are trying to kill all Palestinians" and "Israel is completely innocent in the deaths of 40,000+ civilians." Israel pretty clearly uses disproportionate force in at least some cases (a war crime) and it's ROE that allows its soldiers/airmen to ignore at whim the protected status of medical and aid workers is also a war crime.
Yes, it sucks that Hamas uses human shields and sometimes engages in perfidy with protected status symbols, but war sucks in many ways. A nation is bound by the Geneva conventions even when its opponents are not.
Quote from: DGuller on April 12, 2025, 08:00:29 PMThank you for keeping us updated on who's doing your thinking for you.
Putting greater weight on somebody's opinion is having them do your thinking for you? LOL.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 04:46:06 PMYou know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago. Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal. Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.
I have mentioned several different strategies that could have been done over the decades we have been discussing this. But we are well beyond all of those. I am sure that the situation is so far gone that nobody has any current choice but just to kill civilians.
But I don't want to do it man. I will accept committing horrible atrocities with some despair if it is for a short period of time and maybe something better will result. I understand how the world works. We had to do horrible things in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s. But it was only for a short time and ultimately lives were saved. But this is a protracted ethnic based conflict with no end in sight beyond doing something truly barbaric. And I want no part of it. And it does suck that my government seems determined to make me an accessory to all of this madness. That somehow some sort of policy is being advanced here. The only thing I see is an ethnic war. This is like Bosnia or Kosovo only now we have picked a side and are facilitating one side in winning.
Also if it is true that Israel just could have killed every single Palestinian with no problem at any moment they chose, and I am somewhat skeptical that is actually true, then why do they need our support? Sounds like they have the situation well in hand. But I think there are all sorts of reasons that Israel could not in fact have done this even if they desperately wanted to.
But you have said that if Israel does actually commit ethnic cleansing you would change your opinion and I plan on holding you to that pledge.
Quote from: DGuller on April 12, 2025, 08:00:29 PMQuote from: mongers on April 12, 2025, 03:14:33 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 01:24:19 PM:rolleyes: You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them. What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade? I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.
I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.
Thank you for keeping us updated on who's doing your thinking for you.
QFT, Classic languish. :cool:
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 05:39:04 PMQuote from: mongers on April 12, 2025, 03:14:33 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 01:24:19 PM:rolleyes: You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them. What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade? I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.
I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.
I'm sure you would have done a 180 if he had said something different. :rolleyes:
:wacko:
Again yet more awesome Languish 'reasoning'.
Quote from: grumbler on April 12, 2025, 08:13:50 PMThere are gradations of potential truth that lie between "the Israelis are trying to kill all Palestinians" and "Israel is completely innocent in the deaths of 40,000+ civilians." Israel pretty clearly uses disproportionate force in at least some cases (a war crime) and it's ROE that allows its soldiers/airmen to ignore at whim the protected status of medical and aid workers is also a war crime.
Yes, it sucks that Hamas uses human shields and sometimes engages in perfidy with protected status symbols, but war sucks in many ways. A nation is bound by the Geneva conventions even when its opponents are not.
I was under the impression that continued acts of perfidy with protected status symbols negated the protected status of the symbols. If not the army that attacks in ambulances rather than tanks with children tied to the top automatically wins.
Quote from: Valmy on April 12, 2025, 08:15:21 PMQuote from: DGuller on April 12, 2025, 08:00:29 PMThank you for keeping us updated on who's doing your thinking for you.
Putting greater weight on somebody's opinion is having them do your thinking for you? LOL.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 04:46:06 PMYou know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago. Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal. Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.
I have mentioned several different strategies that could have been done over the decades we have been discussing this. But we are well beyond all of those. I am sure that the situation is so far gone that nobody has any current choice but just to kill civilians.
But I don't want to do it man. I will accept committing horrible atrocities with some despair if it is for a short period of time and maybe something better will result. I understand how the world works. We had to do horrible things in Bosnia and Kosovo in the 1990s. But it was only for a short time and ultimately lives were saved. But this is a protracted ethnic based conflict with no end in sight beyond doing something truly barbaric. And I want no part of it. And it does suck that my government seems determined to make me an accessory to all of this madness. That somehow some sort of policy is being advanced here. The only thing I see is an ethnic war. This is like Bosnia or Kosovo only now we have picked a side and are facilitating one side in winning.
Also if it is true that Israel just could have killed every single Palestinian with no problem at any moment they chose, and I am somewhat skeptical that is actually true, then why do they need our support? Sounds like they have the situation well in hand. But I think there are all sorts of reasons that Israel could not in fact have done this even if they desperately wanted to.
But you have said that if Israel does actually commit ethnic cleansing you would change your opinion and I plan on holding you to that pledge.
Killing people isn't that hard, In Rawanda they knocked off over half a million in a few months. I think the Israeli have more than enough power to accomplish that, yet they do not. It well within their power to shoot every civilian they see and decimate the entire population. They also have nukes, so there is that. There in is the crux of the issue: The Palestinian leadership, both Hamas and the PLO would absolutely kill every last Israeli if they had the ability to do so. Oct 7th was demonstration of that. Israel has the power, but chooses not to use it. That is the difference between the two.
Also, if Israel falls, you will probably die, so there is that.
Quote from: mongers on April 12, 2025, 08:37:37 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 05:39:04 PMQuote from: mongers on April 12, 2025, 03:14:33 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 01:24:19 PM:rolleyes: You'd think if they were targeting civilians they would have gotten more of them. What is this the four or fifth genocide that Gaza has endured in the last decade? I imagine that Uday Rabie will be counted as another civilian killed by Israeli forces by the Ministry of Health.
I think I'm going to listen to what Alcibiades has to say on the matter, rather than you, what with him knowing a thing or two about war.
I'm sure you would have done a 180 if he had said something different. :rolleyes:
:wacko:
Again yet more awesome Languish 'reasoning'.
Am I wrong? He said something you already agree with and so you agree with him. If he said something different I doubt it would have changed your opinion much at all.
Quote from: Valmy on April 12, 2025, 08:15:21 PMBut you have said that if Israel does actually commit ethnic cleansing you would change your opinion and I plan on holding you to that pledge.
The goalposts will move, so Raz will never admit it even when there actually is ethnic cleansing. Israel hasn't killed everyone quickly enough, so it can't be that bad, or something.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 13, 2025, 04:52:02 AMThe goalposts will move, so Raz will never admit it even when there actually is ethnic cleansing. Israel hasn't killed everyone quickly enough, so it can't be that bad, or something.
I'll take that bet.
I dunno. I realise that getting rid of Hamas is vital both for the Israelis and the Arabs. But this?
If it was Serbians going at it in Bosnia or Kosovo, the world would be up in arms.
Now it is more like a shrug, and "Hey let them keep at it".
I like Bill burr's joke here. You gotta work around it.
Quote from: Norgy on April 13, 2025, 05:12:40 AMI dunno. I realise that getting rid of Hamas is vital both for the Israelis and the Arabs. But this?
If it was Serbians going at it in Bosnia or Kosovo, the world would be up in arms.
Now it is more like a shrug, and "Hey let them keep at it".
The world seems up in arms about this. When the Serbs were going at in Bosnia and Serbia the US tried to stop them. I remember protests about
that.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 09:45:11 PMI was under the impression that continued acts of perfidy with protected status symbols negated the protected status of the symbols. If not the army that attacks in ambulances rather than tanks with children tied to the top automatically wins.
That only applies when there is a government able to dictate the use/non-use of the protected-status symbols and the nation that accuses the other side of perfidy makes a formal announcement. I'm not 100% sure that caveat still applies.
Insurgent groups must still abide by the laws of war, they must wear identifiable insignia etc. Israel has called out Hamas on using hospitals and ambulances before. If the laws of war favor the side that breaks them, then they are useless.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2025, 04:56:14 AMQuote from: Solmyr on April 13, 2025, 04:52:02 AMThe goalposts will move, so Raz will never admit it even when there actually is ethnic cleansing. Israel hasn't killed everyone quickly enough, so it can't be that bad, or something.
I'll take that bet.
Me too. I will put down 1k, even money, that I will admit there is ethic cleansing where there actually is ethnic cleansing.
Quote from: grumbler on April 12, 2025, 08:13:50 PMThere are gradations of potential truth that lie between "the Israelis are trying to kill all Palestinians" and "Israel is completely innocent in the deaths of 40,000+ civilians." Israel pretty clearly uses disproportionate force in at least some cases (a war crime) and it's ROE that allows its soldiers/airmen to ignore at whim the protected status of medical and aid workers is also a war crime.
Yes, it sucks that Hamas uses human shields and sometimes engages in perfidy with protected status symbols, but war sucks in many ways. A nation is bound by the Geneva conventions even when its opponents are not.
Problem is, I'd argue it was precisely the higher tolerance for collateral damage that cut the Lebanon campaign short compared to say, 2006. Finally unable to hide behind civilians, the higher echelons of Hizbollah were just obliterated. Similar story with the beeper thing, which was apparently a war crime, yet key to the campaign.
If anything I suspect the combination of the genocide claims and the success in Lebanon has made Israel far more likely to just disregard outside opinion.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 09:00:14 AMQuote from: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2025, 04:56:14 AMQuote from: Solmyr on April 13, 2025, 04:52:02 AMThe goalposts will move, so Raz will never admit it even when there actually is ethnic cleansing. Israel hasn't killed everyone quickly enough, so it can't be that bad, or something.
I'll take that bet.
Me too. I will put down 1k, even money, that I will admit there is ethic cleansing where there actually is ethnic cleansing.
Good. I have no doubt.
Will you take me up on the bet?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 09:40:32 AMWill you take me up on the bet?
Me? No. I just said I have no doubt. Why would I bet against something I have no doubt would happen.
I believe in Raz
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 13, 2025, 04:56:14 AMQuote from: Solmyr on April 13, 2025, 04:52:02 AMThe goalposts will move, so Raz will never admit it even when there actually is ethnic cleansing. Israel hasn't killed everyone quickly enough, so it can't be that bad, or something.
I'll take that bet.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/05/11/russia-recruiting-far-right-extremists-attacks-west-putin/
QuoteSo, it came as a huge surprise when Ya'alon, who served as a commander of the Israeli army's West Bank Division and head of the military's Central Command – roles which preserve and strengthen Israel's occupation in violation of international law - accused the Israeli government of committing ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
"There is no Beit Lahia, there is no Beit Hanoun. They [Israeli soldiers] are operating in Jabalia and are essentially clearing the area of Arabs," Ya'alon said in an interview with the Israeli channel Democrat TV.
"The path we are being dragged down is occupation, annexation and ethnic cleansing in the Gaza Strip - population transfer, call it what you want, and Jewish settlements," he added.
You lost, pay up. Former IDF commander says it's ethnic cleansing, UN says it's ethnic cleansing. Only Bibi says it's not, yet he's on camera with Donald Trump planning the eviction of everyone in Gaza to make room for playa Gaza.
Quote from: Norgy on April 13, 2025, 05:12:40 AMI dunno. I realise that getting rid of Hamas is vital both for the Israelis and the Arabs.
Sure it's vital. But then again, Bibi and the Israeli govt nurtured Hamas growth. They needed it. Until now. The only country who could apply enough pressure to hold Israel back was the US.
Quote from: viper37 on April 13, 2025, 02:10:04 PMYou lost, pay up. Former IDF commander says it's ethnic cleansing, UN says it's ethnic cleansing. Only Bibi says it's not, yet he's on camera with Donald Trump planning the eviction of everyone in Gaza to make room for playa Gaza.
No bet was made. There is nothing to lose and nothing to pay up.
I am aware of many people other than Bibi who say it's not ethnic cleansing: Raz, me, Valmy. Solymir agreed ethnic cleansing is not taking place with the wording of his prediction. "When it actually takes place." Your star Israeli witness said Israel is being dragged down the path to ethnic cleansing, which means ethnic cleansing is something that might or might not happen in the future.
Which begs the question of how will we know ethnic cleansing has taken place. I suggest looking at historical examples. In Republika Srbska there are no Bosnians left AFAIK. No Germans in the Sudetenland. No Chinese left in South Korea. A few Cherokee managed to hunker down in the mountains and avoided being ethnically cleansed to Oklahoma. Most Tutsis survived the attempted mass murder so I would call that failed ethnic cleansing. In other words, all or virtually all of the victim group has to be compelled to leave through threat of violence to qualify as ethnic cleansing. If anyone wants to propose an alternative definition of ethnic cleansing I'm happy to listen and possibly learn from them. I'm less interested in arguments that reduce to "I'm angry and my friends are angry so it's ethnic cleansing."
I struggle to see how the colonization of the west bank is not ethnic cleansing.
As I said, I'm willing to make the bet. Since Solmyr proposed it, I'll let him be the arbitrator. If Solmyr says that is ethnic cleansing and I agree with him, you give me money. C'mon guys, put your money where your mouth is. 1K even money. American dollars: No Quebeci pesos or whatever you have up there.
Go fuck yourself. Nobody gives a shit what you think.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 04:25:17 PMAs I said, I'm willing to make the bet. Since Solmyr proposed it, I'll let him be the arbitrator. If Solmyr says that is ethnic cleansing and I agree with him, you give me money. C'mon guys, put your money where your mouth is. 1K even money. American dollars: No Quebeci pesos or whatever you have up there.
You don't have 1k$ in your bank account, you depend on social security to live which will soon be cut, I have no means of enforcing the bet in the US, in fact, I risk severe harm to myself just crossing the border as a foreigner.
Not worth it for monkey money that is devaluated as we speak.
Besides, by the definition that Yi propose, that there shouldn't be single Arab living in Israel, it'll take too much time before I could collect money from any of you. You will be sent to a farm camp to replace the meds you can no longer with the tariffs and the missing social security that pays for your lodging, Yi might lose his retirement fund and I might die anytime of a freak accident.
You guys should define the bet first.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 08:51:20 AMInsurgent groups must still abide by the laws of war, they must wear identifiable insignia etc. Israel has called out Hamas on using hospitals and ambulances before. If the laws of war favor the side that breaks them, then they are useless.
There is no doubt that Hamas has committed many war crimes, nor that war crimes are actually pretty far down the list of horrific things that they have done. Israel is not free to ignore the laws of armed conflict just because Hamas does not honor them, just as cops are not allowed to break the law just because criminals do so.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 13, 2025, 05:32:25 PMYou guys should define the bet first.
I did. Viper just didn't read it. Solymir declares there is a ethnic cleansing and I agree with him viper gives me a grand. If I disagree with Solmyr then I give viper a grand. Simple. And I do have a grand.
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2025, 06:31:46 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 08:51:20 AMInsurgent groups must still abide by the laws of war, they must wear identifiable insignia etc. Israel has called out Hamas on using hospitals and ambulances before. If the laws of war favor the side that breaks them, then they are useless.
There is no doubt that Hamas has committed many war crimes, nor that war crimes are actually pretty far down the list of horrific things that they have done. Israel is not free to ignore the laws of armed conflict just because Hamas does not honor them, just as cops are not allowed to break the law just because criminals do so.
So an army that willfully disregards the rules of war should an advantage over ones who do no? An army of armed licensed medical personal driving combat ambulances is an unstoppable military force? That doesn't seem right.
The example of police is a very poor one, since Police
are given powers to act in ways that would be criminal for ordinary citizens. They can kidnap people and even kill them because criminals break the law.
Quote from: Grey Fox on April 13, 2025, 05:32:25 PMYou guys should define the bet first.
Yi said:
QuoteIn other words, all or virtually all of the victim group has to be compelled to leave through threat of violence to qualify as ethnic cleansing.
They have to clear Gaza, the West Bank and Israel of all Palestinians.
The problem is that Raz is using words that have different meanings than that thinks they mean. Genocide has been explained to him a number of times, but to no avail. I am not sure why anyone is engaging with him on this topic.
But I am enjoying the show as some of you struggle to try to define with ethnic cleansing is. A term that is not defined in any international conventions.
Raz posted, sarcastically, that the Israelis has engaged in 5 genocides in Gaza by now. I am not sure it is five, but it is certainly one at this point.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 13, 2025, 06:49:59 PMThe problem is that Raz is using words that have different meanings than that thinks they mean. Genocide has been explained to him a number of times, but to no avail. I am not sure why anyone is engaging with him on this topic.
But I am enjoying the show as some of you struggle to try to define with ethnic cleansing is. A term that is not defined in any international conventions.
Raz posted, sarcastically, that the Israelis has engaged in 5 genocides in Gaza by now. I am not sure it is five, but it is certainly one at this point.
Yes, simply giving people mental trauma is considered a form of genocide. I simply reject that as nonsense.
The UN defintion includes
QuoteIn the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
Basically every war ever waged is a form of genocide.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 13, 2025, 06:49:59 PMBut I am enjoying the show as some of you struggle to try to define with ethnic cleansing is. A term that is not defined in any international conventions.
I believe that part of the problem they are having is that some, like Yi, think that ethnic cleansing is a product, not a process, while others, like Zoupa, think that it is both a product and a process.
I agree with Zoupa, but don't want to get dragged into that discussion.
Right, settler-colonialism theory. Simply living in the wrong place is a form of intolerable oppression.
Quote from: grumbler on April 13, 2025, 07:08:09 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 13, 2025, 06:49:59 PMBut I am enjoying the show as some of you struggle to try to define with ethnic cleansing is. A term that is not defined in any international conventions.
I believe that part of the problem they are having is that some, like Yi, think that ethnic cleansing is a product, not a process, while others, like Zoupa, think that it is both a product and a process.
I agree with Zoupa, but don't want to get dragged into that discussion.
Yes, that is a good analysis of the problem
Quote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 07:32:44 PMRight, settler-colonialism theory. Simply living in the wrong place is a form of intolerable oppression.
Yes, because all the colonies were empty land that didn't belong to anyone before those jolly good folks moved in.
:wacko:
Quote from: Zoupa on April 13, 2025, 08:42:54 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 07:32:44 PMRight, settler-colonialism theory. Simply living in the wrong place is a form of intolerable oppression.
Yes, because all the colonies were empty land that didn't belong to anyone before those jolly good folks moved in.
:wacko:
Why does that matter?
Quote from: Zoupa on April 13, 2025, 04:34:17 PMGo fuck yourself. Nobody gives a shit what you think.
I do, actually, so there is at least one person who does.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 07:32:44 PMRight, settler-colonialism theory. Simply living in the wrong place is a form of intolerable oppression.
No. Fucking doing intolerable oppressive things is intolerable oppression.
The problem with the settler-colonists was not that they moved to a place. It was what they did when they got there.
Why are you being so weird about this? Is colonialism being bad something you are disputing?
Quote from: viper37 on April 13, 2025, 06:42:56 PMThey have to clear Gaza, the West Bank and Israel of all Palestinians.
Just to be clear in the initial exchange with Raz we were only talking about the Trump plan to ethnically cleanse Gaza.
Cause I read up on the Settler Colonial theory. In fact, I posted some essay's by the theorists here. Colonialism is structure not an event. Simply being here is part of the structure. It's not an act, it's part of being. You, me, Grumbler, Viper, Zoupa, Yi, are all settlers just as the guys who drove off the Indians. We are forever tainted so long as the land is not in the hands of indigenous people. Anything other than giving back the land is simply a hypocritical efforts to make ourselves feel less guilty.
https://clas.osu.edu/sites/clas.osu.edu/files/Tuck%20and%20Yang%202012%20Decolonization%20is%20not%20a%20metaphor.pdf
"Decolonization is not a metaphor" was something of a slogan among the antizionists the day after Oct 7th. Naturally I wondered what the fuck they were talking about. So I read up on it.
Quote from: DGuller on April 13, 2025, 09:26:20 PMQuote from: Zoupa on April 13, 2025, 04:34:17 PMGo fuck yourself. Nobody gives a shit what you think.
I do, actually, so there is at least one person who does.
:hug:
ethnic cleansing, the attempt to create ethnically homogeneous geographic areas through the deportation or forcible displacement of persons belonging to particular ethnic groups
Britanica
Objecting to those who call Israeli actions genocide is fair enough. That term has a very high bar and I wouldn't agree Israel is meeting it.
Ethnic cleansing though... Come on. It obviously is that.
Quote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 03:31:22 AMObjecting to those who call Israeli actions genocide is fair enough. That term has a very high bar and I wouldn't agree Israel is meeting it.
Ethnic cleansing though... Come on. It obviously is that.
Do you think Israeli actions in Gaza are intended to create an ethnically homogeneous area? I.e. all Jews.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 10:24:31 PMCause I read up on the Settler Colonial theory. In fact, I posted some essay's by the theorists here. Colonialism is structure not an event. Simply being here is part of the structure. It's not an act, it's part of being. You, me, Grumbler, Viper, Zoupa, Yi, are all settlers just as the guys who drove off the Indians. We are forever tainted so long as the land is not in the hands of indigenous people. Anything other than giving back the land is simply a hypocritical efforts to make ourselves feel less guilty.
https://clas.osu.edu/sites/clas.osu.edu/files/Tuck%20and%20Yang%202012%20Decolonization%20is%20not%20a%20metaphor.pdf
"Decolonization is not a metaphor" was something of a slogan among the antizionists the day after Oct 7th. Naturally I wondered what the fuck they were talking about. So I read up on it.
I'm just gonna move in to your house then. Go somewhere else, not my problem.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2025, 04:01:30 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 03:31:22 AMObjecting to those who call Israeli actions genocide is fair enough. That term has a very high bar and I wouldn't agree Israel is meeting it.
Ethnic cleansing though... Come on. It obviously is that.
Do you think Israeli actions in Gaza are intended to create an ethnically homogeneous area? I.e. all Jews.
Its pretty clearly what they do with their West Bank settlements.
They've been forcing Palestinians out of areas of Gaza and there is increasing talk of this being permanent in some areas at least.
Quote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 05:29:55 AMIts pretty clearly what they do with their West Bank settlements.
They've been forcing Palestinians out of areas of Gaza and there is increasing talk of this being permanent in some areas at least.
Why is my question difficult to answer?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2025, 05:54:24 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 05:29:55 AMIts pretty clearly what they do with their West Bank settlements.
They've been forcing Palestinians out of areas of Gaza and there is increasing talk of this being permanent in some areas at least.
Why is my question difficult to answer?
:blink:
If you don't think I answered you then I've no idea what you're fishing for.
Quote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 03:31:22 AMObjecting to those who call Israeli actions genocide is fair enough. That term has a very high bar and I wouldn't agree Israel is meeting it.
Ethnic cleansing though... Come on. It obviously is that.
Grumbler, here is a good example of the problem. In the case of the Rwandan leader convicted of genocide no mention was made of ethnic cleansing. The reason is quite simple, it is not a term used in international law, but commentators have suggested another reason is that if it was defined, it would have to be something more than genocide since it would make no sense to create a lesser included offence.
But people like Raz and Jos simply don't understand the meaning of the words they are using.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 07:09:11 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 03:31:22 AMObjecting to those who call Israeli actions genocide is fair enough. That term has a very high bar and I wouldn't agree Israel is meeting it.
Ethnic cleansing though... Come on. It obviously is that.
Grumbler, here is a good example of the problem. In the case of the Rwandan leader convicted of genocide no mention was made of ethnic cleansing. The reason is quite simple, it is not a term used in international law, but commentators have suggested another reason is that if it was defined, it would have to be something more than genocide since it would make no sense to create a lesser included offence.
But people like Raz and Jos simply don't understand the meaning of the words they are using.
You've got this backwards.
Ethnic cleansing is the lesser act.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/whats-the-difference-between-genocide-and-ethnic-cleansing
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/6/2/it-is-not-ethnic-cleansing-it-is-genocide
It absolutely does make sense to define lesser crimes. Fail to do so and you can get away with ticking a lot of the boxes of the greater crime as long as you don't tick them all. But correct that this hasn't happened.
Quote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 06:48:26 AM:blink:
If you don't think I answered you then I've no idea what you're fishing for.
"Yes" or "no."
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 07:09:11 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 03:31:22 AMObjecting to those who call Israeli actions genocide is fair enough. That term has a very high bar and I wouldn't agree Israel is meeting it.
Ethnic cleansing though... Come on. It obviously is that.
Grumbler, here is a good example of the problem. In the case of the Rwandan leader convicted of genocide no mention was made of ethnic cleansing. The reason is quite simple, it is not a term used in international law, but commentators have suggested another reason is that if it was defined, it would have to be something more than genocide since it would make no sense to create a lesser included offence.
But people like Raz and Jos simply don't understand the meaning of the words they are using.
The term in international law is "mass forcible transfers."
QuoteArticle 49 - Deportations, transfers, evacuations
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.
The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.
The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.
The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.
[https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-49]IHL Database at the IRC[/url]
The IRDC commentary on this acknowledges that it is sometimes referred to as "ethnic cleansing."
QuoteEthnic cleansing
"Ethnic cleansing" aims to change the demographic composition of a territory. In addition to displacement of the civilian population of a territory, this can be achieved through other acts which are prohibited in and of themselves such as attacks against civilians (see Rule 1), murder (see Rule 89) and rape and other forms of sexual violence (see Rule 93). These acts are prohibited regardless of the nature of the conflict and have been widely condemned.
IHL Database (https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule129)
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2025, 07:29:17 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 07:09:11 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 03:31:22 AMObjecting to those who call Israeli actions genocide is fair enough. That term has a very high bar and I wouldn't agree Israel is meeting it.
Ethnic cleansing though... Come on. It obviously is that.
Grumbler, here is a good example of the problem. In the case of the Rwandan leader convicted of genocide no mention was made of ethnic cleansing. The reason is quite simple, it is not a term used in international law, but commentators have suggested another reason is that if it was defined, it would have to be something more than genocide since it would make no sense to create a lesser included offence.
But people like Raz and Jos simply don't understand the meaning of the words they are using.
The term in international law is "mass forcible transfers."
QuoteArticle 49 - Deportations, transfers, evacuations
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.
The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.
The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.
The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.
[https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-49]IHL Database at the IRC[/url]
The IRDC commentary on this acknowledges that it is sometimes referred to as "ethnic cleansing."
QuoteEthnic cleansing
"Ethnic cleansing" aims to change the demographic composition of a territory. In addition to displacement of the civilian population of a territory, this can be achieved through other acts which are prohibited in and of themselves such as attacks against civilians (see Rule 1), murder (see Rule 89) and rape and other forms of sexual violence (see Rule 93). These acts are prohibited regardless of the nature of the conflict and have been widely condemned.
IHL Database (https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule129)
Yes, exactly it is the other acts that have been defined in international law that are applied, leading to the conclusion that without being separately defined it would simply be a lesser but included offence.
That is the reason some have called for something other than a lesser included offence.
All of which is to say, have a debate about whether ethnic cleaning has occurred in Gaza goes nowhere for lack of an agreed definition. Especially when there is an internationally accepted definition of genocide.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 04:02:54 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 10:24:31 PMCause I read up on the Settler Colonial theory. In fact, I posted some essay's by the theorists here. Colonialism is structure not an event. Simply being here is part of the structure. It's not an act, it's part of being. You, me, Grumbler, Viper, Zoupa, Yi, are all settlers just as the guys who drove off the Indians. We are forever tainted so long as the land is not in the hands of indigenous people. Anything other than giving back the land is simply a hypocritical efforts to make ourselves feel less guilty.
https://clas.osu.edu/sites/clas.osu.edu/files/Tuck%20and%20Yang%202012%20Decolonization%20is%20not%20a%20metaphor.pdf
"Decolonization is not a metaphor" was something of a slogan among the antizionists the day after Oct 7th. Naturally I wondered what the fuck they were talking about. So I read up on it.
I'm just gonna move in to your house then. Go somewhere else, not my problem.
I don't have a house, and besides you are already occupying some else's land.
Are Palestinian groups guilty of genocide? They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 07:55:44 AMAre Palestinian groups guilty of genocide? They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.
Hamas, clearly yes.
All the Palestinians who have advocated for a two state solution? Clearly not.
Attempted genocide sure.
But surely there's some bar where you have to have a measure of success? Or else there's so many serial killers could qualify.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2025, 07:20:28 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 06:48:26 AM:blink:
If you don't think I answered you then I've no idea what you're fishing for.
"Yes" or "no."
Unlike some I don't think this is a simple black and white issue.
Quote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 09:21:49 AMAttempted genocide sure.
But surely there's some bar where you have to have a measure of success? Or else there's so many serial killers could qualify.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2025, 07:20:28 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 06:48:26 AM:blink:
If you don't think I answered you then I've no idea what you're fishing for.
"Yes" or "no."
Unlike some I don't think this is a simple black and white issue.
Again, I think you misunderstand the definition of genocide.
The act of killing a bunch of Jewish teenagers at an outdoor concert and taking others hostage is an act which falls under the definition.
The intent of Hamas also falls within the definition.
I don't know what you think genocide is, but it's not how the United Nations convention defines it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 09:19:18 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 07:55:44 AMAre Palestinian groups guilty of genocide? They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.
Hamas, clearly yes.
All the Palestinians who have advocated for a two state solution? Clearly not.
Before the PLO adopted the two state solution, they were pretty keen on removing the Jews from area. So they also committed genocide. All those times that Yasser Arafat spoke to the UN they should have just nabbed him and charged him with Genocide. Also Hezbollah. And Islamic Jihad. And Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Support for a two state solution has varied quite a bit among the public. So a large number, perhaps a majority have, at times, been genocidal. Students for Justice in Palestine rejecting a two state solution and happily inflicting mental harm, also genocide. Or at the very least cheerleading for genocide. Same for those students Trump is trying to deport. Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, who wanted to kill, in whole or in part, Afghanis. Specifically the part that was actively shooting at them. Genocide. and ad absurdum.
This is why I simply ignored this definition of genocide. It is stupid.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 07:48:01 AMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 04:02:54 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 10:24:31 PMCause I read up on the Settler Colonial theory. In fact, I posted some essay's by the theorists here. Colonialism is structure not an event. Simply being here is part of the structure. It's not an act, it's part of being. You, me, Grumbler, Viper, Zoupa, Yi, are all settlers just as the guys who drove off the Indians. We are forever tainted so long as the land is not in the hands of indigenous people. Anything other than giving back the land is simply a hypocritical efforts to make ourselves feel less guilty.
https://clas.osu.edu/sites/clas.osu.edu/files/Tuck%20and%20Yang%202012%20Decolonization%20is%20not%20a%20metaphor.pdf
"Decolonization is not a metaphor" was something of a slogan among the antizionists the day after Oct 7th. Naturally I wondered what the fuck they were talking about. So I read up on it.
I'm just gonna move in to your house then. Go somewhere else, not my problem.
I don't have a house, and besides you already occupying some else's land.
Yes, but I want your stuff. According to you, this moral relativism applies in every situation. It's not big deal, it's been happening forever right. So I'll send you my address and just ship everything you own to me. Thnx.
Why should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't? You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.
If only the Israelis did some land acknowledgments, decolonized their school curriculum, gifted back a few acres of brown lands as part of a "land back" program now and again the whole thing would be fine.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 09:52:46 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 09:19:18 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 07:55:44 AMAre Palestinian groups guilty of genocide? They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.
Hamas, clearly yes.
All the Palestinians who have advocated for a two state solution? Clearly not.
Before the PLO adopted the two state solution, they were pretty keen on removing the Jews from area. So they also committed genocide. All those times that Yasser Arafat spoke to the UN they should have just nabbed him and charged him with Genocide. Also Hezbollah. And Islamic Jihad. And Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Support for a two state solution has varied quite a bit among the public. So a large number, perhaps a majority have, at times, been genocidal. Students for Justice in Palestine rejecting a two state solution and happily inflicting mental harm, also genocide. Or at the very least cheerleading for genocide. Same for those students Trump is trying to deport. Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, who wanted to kill, in whole or in part, Afghanis. Specifically the part that was actively shooting at them. Genocide. and ad absurdum.
This is why I simply ignored this definition of genocide. It is stupid.
Well, at least you admit to ignoring a convention, adopted by all countries except the most odious.
This is why I hesitate to enter into any discussion with you about the topic and why I think it's wise for others not to engage with you on this topic.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 06:41:53 PMSo an army that willfully disregards the rules of war should an advantage over ones who do no?
Unfortunately that is true.
But Israel has a few advantages of its own.
QuoteAn army of armed licensed medical personal driving combat ambulances is an unstoppable military force?
No that does not follow.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 10:15:39 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 09:52:46 AMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 09:19:18 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 07:55:44 AMAre Palestinian groups guilty of genocide? They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.
Hamas, clearly yes.
All the Palestinians who have advocated for a two state solution? Clearly not.
Before the PLO adopted the two state solution, they were pretty keen on removing the Jews from area. So they also committed genocide. All those times that Yasser Arafat spoke to the UN they should have just nabbed him and charged him with Genocide. Also Hezbollah. And Islamic Jihad. And Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Support for a two state solution has varied quite a bit among the public. So a large number, perhaps a majority have, at times, been genocidal. Students for Justice in Palestine rejecting a two state solution and happily inflicting mental harm, also genocide. Or at the very least cheerleading for genocide. Same for those students Trump is trying to deport. Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, who wanted to kill, in whole or in part, Afghanis. Specifically the part that was actively shooting at them. Genocide. and ad absurdum.
This is why I simply ignored this definition of genocide. It is stupid.
Well, at least you admit to ignoring a convention, adopted by all countries except the most odious.
This is why I hesitate to enter into any discussion with you about the topic and why I think it's wise for others not to engage with you on this topic.
Because it doesn't make any sense! Yes I am ignoring the convention and anyone that anyone who has not denounced all the major Palestinian groups as having committed genocide is implicitly ignoring it as well.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 14, 2025, 10:17:45 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 06:41:53 PMSo an army that willfully disregards the rules of war should an advantage over ones who do no?
Unfortunately that is true.
But Israel has a few advantages of its own.
QuoteAn army of armed licensed medical personal driving combat ambulances is an unstoppable military force?
No that does not follow.
You can't shoot at medical personal, they are protected. So long as they use hide behind that, attacking them is a war crime.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:07:34 AMWhy should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't? You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.
So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?
That's not the trap you think it is.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 10:24:31 PMCause I read up on the Settler Colonial theory. In fact, I posted some essay's by the theorists here. Colonialism is structure not an event. Simply being here is part of the structure. It's not an act, it's part of being. You, me, Grumbler, Viper, Zoupa, Yi, are all settlers just as the guys who drove off the Indians. We are forever tainted so long as the land is not in the hands of indigenous people. Anything other than giving back the land is simply a hypocritical efforts to make ourselves feel less guilty.
:mellow: Ok well that is all very interesting theory. But I guess I am more interested in real world shit than whatever this is.
Colonialism is bad. We shouldn't invade places where other people live and take over. We should stop doing that. And we probably should stop breaking our treaties we have with the remaining indigenous peoples on their reservations. We should stop being assholes now, that would be cool.
I don't think having 95% of the Western Hemisphere leave is a viable act.
Obviously Israel is a little weird in this particular context since, you know, 50% of Jewish Israelis are descended from Jews in Iran, Iraq, Yemen, North Africa, and locals. I don't know if that easily maps on to what we normally think of when we think of settler-colonialism.
But even if it did, my issues here have exactly zero to do with any of that. I think this easily maps onto Balkan ethnic warfare and unless we are going back to the Ottoman Empire, not any settler-colonialism going on there.
So why are you so obsessed with this theory? I don't think you need some fancy theory to demonstrate that colonialism is bad and people shouldn't do it.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 10:36:05 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:07:34 AMWhy should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't? You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.
So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?
Not if we beat them back. Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:43:58 AMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 10:36:05 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:07:34 AMWhy should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't? You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.
So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?
Not if we beat them back. Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression?
So uh your comeback is might is right?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 07:55:44 AMAre Palestinian groups guilty of genocide? They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.
Guilty?
No. But a few have stated their intent. Though I think the PLO just reminds Palestinians of the happy fact that at their version of the end times Muslims are going to hunt down and kill all the Jews. But at least that one requires them waiting around for divine intervention first.
This is an ethnic conflict. If I was in charge of Palestine at any point since 1991, at which point any realistic chance for victory was gone, I would be trying to surrender and get the best terms I can for my people. But I probably would have been assassinated by nutcases as my reward for my efforts.
You know, like Yitzhak Rabin when he tried to make peace.
Likewise it has always been my opinion that creation of a Palestinian State in peace with Israel would require the intervention of an outside military force to disarm the militias and guarantee security for the formation of a functional civil society. I always thought the Gaza experiment was doomed for failure, even if they hadn't elected Hamas back in 2006 or whenever that was. The Palestinians needed help if that was going to work but they didn't get it.
And here we are. It doesn't take a huge number of fanatics to undermine a peace process. That have succeeded and only death and destruction await the losers who are almost certainly the Palestinians. And I guess it has come to this, I just don't want any part of it.
Quote from: Valmy on April 14, 2025, 10:43:12 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 13, 2025, 10:24:31 PMCause I read up on the Settler Colonial theory. In fact, I posted some essay's by the theorists here. Colonialism is structure not an event. Simply being here is part of the structure. It's not an act, it's part of being. You, me, Grumbler, Viper, Zoupa, Yi, are all settlers just as the guys who drove off the Indians. We are forever tainted so long as the land is not in the hands of indigenous people. Anything other than giving back the land is simply a hypocritical efforts to make ourselves feel less guilty.
:mellow: Ok well that is all very interesting theory. But I guess I am more interested in real world shit than whatever this is.
Colonialism is bad. We shouldn't invade places where other people live and take over. We should stop doing that. And we probably should stop breaking our treaties we have with the remaining indigenous peoples on their reservations.
I don't think having 95% of the Western Hemisphere leave is a viable act.
Obviously Israel is a little weird in this particular context since, you know, 50% of Jewish Israelis are descended from Jews in Iran, Iraq, Yemen, North Africa, and locals. I don't know if that easily maps on to what we normally think of when we think of settler-colonialism.
But even if it did, my issues here have exactly zero to do with any of that. I think this easily maps onto Balkan ethnic warfare and unless we are going back to the Ottoman Empire, not any settler-colonialism going on there.
So why are you so obsessed with this theory? I don't think you need some fancy theory to demonstrate that colonialism is bad and people shouldn't do it.
I read up on it because it is animating theory of many of the protests. It is very much in vogue, especially among the elite schools. So it is having a effect on the real world. All of us leaving the Americans is not
desirable, we don't do it because we don't want to. Not many people are so committed to social justice that they would voluntary give up all their property and move to another continent. Even something like 5-10% tax on all income made on stolen land, which is entirely viable, is not seen as desirable.
I am strongly opposed to this ideology because it undermines our right to be here. It also makes things like Trumpism more likely. If you teach leftists that America is a crime, that is irredeemable, they aren't going to work toward reforming it. Why vote for Copmala and Genocide Joe over Donald Trump. They are just as bad.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 10:48:31 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:43:58 AMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 10:36:05 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:07:34 AMWhy should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't? You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.
So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?
Not if we beat them back. Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression?
So uh your comeback is might is right?
What answer do you have? Perhaps the problem with Russia is that we haven't explained our superior morality well enough. We should stop sending weapons to Ukraine and start sending philosophers to Russia. Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 11:07:36 AMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 10:48:31 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:43:58 AMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 10:36:05 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:07:34 AMWhy should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't? You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.
So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?
Not if we beat them back. Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression?
So uh your comeback is might is right?
What answer do you have? Perhaps the problem with Russia is that we haven't explained our superior morality well enough. We should stop sending weapons to Ukraine and start sending philosophers to Russia. Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression.
I'm not sure why I need to justify anything to you?
As to the other subject, I think invading other people's lands, displacing them, killing them, kidnapping their children etc. is not good or desirable, regardless of who does it. It's not exactly rocket science here buddy. Ukraine being invaded and Palestinians getting displaced and killed is happening right now. We can do something right now to stop it. You keep harping back to the colonization of the Americas as a great gotcha. It isn't.
And you don't answer why it's ok for Israel to displace and colonize the West Bank right now, but it's not ok for russians to displace and colonize Ukraine.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 09:39:38 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 09:21:49 AMAttempted genocide sure.
But surely there's some bar where you have to have a measure of success? Or else there's so many serial killers could qualify.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 14, 2025, 07:20:28 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 06:48:26 AM:blink:
If you don't think I answered you then I've no idea what you're fishing for.
"Yes" or "no."
Unlike some I don't think this is a simple black and white issue.
Again, I think you misunderstand the definition of genocide.
The act of killing a bunch of Jewish teenagers at an outdoor concert and taking others hostage is an act which falls under the definition.
The intent of Hamas also falls within the definition.
I don't know what you think genocide is, but it's not how the United Nations convention defines it.
Really?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 11:23:23 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 11:07:36 AMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 10:48:31 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:43:58 AMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 10:36:05 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:07:34 AMWhy should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't? You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.
So going by your logic, russians should get to enjoy their stolen land in Ukraine, since we also live on stolen land, right? If it's ok for us, then it's ok for the Israelis, then why wouldn't it be ok for russia?
Not if we beat them back. Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression?
So uh your comeback is might is right?
What answer do you have? Perhaps the problem with Russia is that we haven't explained our superior morality well enough. We should stop sending weapons to Ukraine and start sending philosophers to Russia. Again, what is your justification for the occupation of stolen land and continued oppression.
I'm not sure why I need to justify anything to you?
As to the other subject, I think invading other people's lands, displacing them, killing them, kidnapping their children etc. is not good or desirable, regardless of who does it. It's not exactly rocket science here buddy. Ukraine being invaded and Palestinians getting displaced and killed is happening right now. We can do something right now to stop it. You keep harping back to the colonization of the Americas as a great gotcha. It isn't.
And you don't answer why it's ok for Israel to displace and colonize the West Bank right now, but it's not ok for russians to displace and colonize Ukraine.
I never said it was okay for the Israelis to displace people in the West Bank right now. :mellow: I was talking about settler colonial theory and then you started talking about becoming my room mate or something.
I'm glad we agree that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if it's Israel doing it.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 12:05:55 PMI'm glad we agree that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if it's Israel doing it.
He thinks displacing people in the West Bank is bad, but also thinks killing and displacing in people in gaza is fine. So, half agree I guess.
Quote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 11:41:04 AMReally?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.
No. I note that at least Raz acknowledges that the UN convention does not conform to his worldview. You want to change the definition to conform to yours.
Quote from: HVC on April 14, 2025, 12:07:57 PMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 12:05:55 PMI'm glad we agree that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if it's Israel doing it.
He thinks displacing people in the West Bank is bad, but also thinks killing and displacing in people in gaza is fine. So, half agree I guess.
I think that fighting a war is acceptable. People do get killed in war. It is one of the defining characteristics of it. CC has raised an interesting point. As Oct 7th was a genocide the Israelis could have held their fire and asked the UN to come in arrest Hamas and disarm the militia. UN member states were probably just chomping at the bit to send
their soldiers to police Gaza.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 12:31:05 PMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 11:41:04 AMReally?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.
No. I note that at least Raz acknowledges that the UN convention does not conform to his worldview. You want to change the definition to conform to yours.
You could explain your position instead of acting all high and mighty. You are endorsing a position that is, on the face of it, absurd.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 12:31:54 PMQuote from: HVC on April 14, 2025, 12:07:57 PMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 12:05:55 PMI'm glad we agree that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if it's Israel doing it.
He thinks displacing people in the West Bank is bad, but also thinks killing and displacing in people in gaza is fine. So, half agree I guess.
I think that fighting a war is acceptable. People do get killed in war. It is one of the defining characteristics of it. CC has raised an interesting point. As Oct 7th was a genocide the Israelis could have held their fire and asked the UN to come in arrest Hamas and disarm the militia. UN member states were probably just chomping at the bit to send their soldiers to police Gaza.
You call it a war, but at the same time insist that a thousand Israelis civilians killed is a tragedy and an act of terrorism, but tens of thousands of Palestinians killed is no big deal and just how wars work. If you were consistent wouldn't you hand wave Israelis being killed just as cavalierly as Palestinians. I mean you seem to champion a alls fair in war view.
Quote from: HVC on April 14, 2025, 12:35:45 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 12:31:54 PMQuote from: HVC on April 14, 2025, 12:07:57 PMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 12:05:55 PMI'm glad we agree that ethnic cleansing is bad, even if it's Israel doing it.
He thinks displacing people in the West Bank is bad, but also thinks killing and displacing in people in gaza is fine. So, half agree I guess.
I think that fighting a war is acceptable. People do get killed in war. It is one of the defining characteristics of it. CC has raised an interesting point. As Oct 7th was a genocide the Israelis could have held their fire and asked the UN to come in arrest Hamas and disarm the militia. UN member states were probably just chomping at the bit to send their soldiers to police Gaza.
You call it a war, but at the same time insist that a thousand Israelis civilians killed is a tragedy and an act of terrorism, but tens of thousands of Palestinians killed is no big deal and just how wars work. If you were consistent wouldn't you hand wave Israelis being killed just as cavalierly as Palestinians. I mean you seem to champion a alls fair in war view.
Honestly, I have avoided classifying the killing of a thousand Israelis as terrorism. It was a military attack by a de facto state designed to kill as many civilians as possible. If one of the belligerent powers violates the rules of war and fights from civilian structures, uses civilians as shields, and abuses protected status of journalists and medical personal then the offending belligerent power should be held criminally liable for those deaths.
Neither Hamas nor Hezbollah call for the genocide of Jews. It rather surprises me how successful the the anti-Palestinian movement has been in gaslighting on the issue.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 12:44:44 PMIf one of the belligerent powers violates the rules of war and fights from civilian structures, uses civilians as shields, and abuses protected status of journalists and medical personal then the offending belligerent power should be held criminally liable for those deaths.
That's not how this works. It's intellectually dishonest and kind of childish.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 01:02:17 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 12:44:44 PMIf one of the belligerent powers violates the rules of war and fights from civilian structures, uses civilians as shields, and abuses protected status of journalists and medical personal then the offending belligerent power should be held criminally liable for those deaths.
That's not how this works. It's intellectually dishonest and kind of childish.
Honestly, I think it is. If you violate the laws of war and someone gets killed as result, it's your fault.
Anyway, you still want my stuff? I have a one filthy mattress, one PC with a burnt motherboard, an older PC that mostly works, a few fans, some DnD books, a kindle, a desk, a cell phone, a printer I can't get to work and another printer I can't get to work, some clothing with stains on them, a dresser, and a few other sundries.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 12:35:33 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 12:31:05 PMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 11:41:04 AMReally?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.
No. I note that at least Raz acknowledges that the UN convention does not conform to his worldview. You want to change the definition to conform to yours.
You could explain your position instead of acting all high and mighty. You are endorsing a position that is, on the face of it, absurd.
I thought I had explained my position. The UN Convention governs. If taking a position that an international convention governs is high and mighty, then so be it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 01:39:12 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 12:35:33 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 12:31:05 PMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 11:41:04 AMReally?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.
No. I note that at least Raz acknowledges that the UN convention does not conform to his worldview. You want to change the definition to conform to yours.
You could explain your position instead of acting all high and mighty. You are endorsing a position that is, on the face of it, absurd.
I thought I had explained my position. The UN Convention governs. If taking a position that an international convention governs is high and mighty, then so be it.
Okay, I gave a bunch of examples that would, on the face of it, appear to be genocide according to the convention in a previous post. Could you tell me which ones are in fact genocide and which ones are not and the reason why? The convention seems extremely broad.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 01:48:15 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 01:39:12 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 12:35:33 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 12:31:05 PMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 11:41:04 AMReally?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.
No. I note that at least Raz acknowledges that the UN convention does not conform to his worldview. You want to change the definition to conform to yours.
You could explain your position instead of acting all high and mighty. You are endorsing a position that is, on the face of it, absurd.
I thought I had explained my position. The UN Convention governs. If taking a position that an international convention governs is high and mighty, then so be it.
Okay, I gave a bunch of examples that would, on the face of it, appear to be genocide according to the convention in a previous post. Could you tell me which ones are in fact genocide and which ones are not and the reason why? The convention seems extremely broad.
Sure, the groups that are terrorist organizations who seek the destruction of the state of Israel fit comfortably within the definition. That is one of the reasons they have been designated as terrorist organizations. The PLO is an interesting case study. It started as a terrorist organization which would have met the definition but which now does not, and particularly after they officially embraced the two state solution. I view that as a hopeful development.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 10:29:13 AMYou can't shoot at medical personal, they are protected. So long as they use hide behind that, attacking them is a war crime.
If medical personnel take part in hostilities, they can be fired upon.
Quote from: grumbler on April 14, 2025, 12:54:13 PMNeither Hamas nor Hezbollah call for the genocide of Jews.
The 1988 Hamas charter states that the "Islamic Resistance Movement"
Quoteaspires to the realization of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews. When the Jew will hide behind stones and trees, the stones and trees will say, "O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.
It further states equates Jews and Judaism with Israel and Zionism, which it seeks to extirpate:
"Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Muslim people. "'May the cowards never sleep.'"
A subsequent documment was published in 2017, without however withdrawing the 1988 charter.
I think that combined with Hamas' well-known atrocities directed against Jews in Israel in generally, it is reasonable to conclude that Hamas seeks the extirpation or expulsion of all Jews living in the lands of Israel or the Occupied Territories.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 01:21:22 PMQuote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 01:02:17 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 12:44:44 PMIf one of the belligerent powers violates the rules of war and fights from civilian structures, uses civilians as shields, and abuses protected status of journalists and medical personal then the offending belligerent power should be held criminally liable for those deaths.
That's not how this works. It's intellectually dishonest and kind of childish.
Honestly, I think it is. If you violate the laws of war and someone gets killed as result, it's your fault.
Cool. So is there a number you're comfortable with or is it just a blanket statement? Example: one terrorist shoots a rocket at Israel. He then goes to sleep in his flat. He does not sleep at the Hamas barracks. You're cool with vaporising the whole block since he didn't follow the rules of war right. So how many non-Hamas Palestinians are you cool with killing? 1, 5, 50, 1000?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 04:46:06 PMYou know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago. Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal. Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.
This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong. And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.
If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos.
We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 01:55:16 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 01:48:15 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 01:39:12 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 12:35:33 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 12:31:05 PMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 11:41:04 AMReally?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.
No. I note that at least Raz acknowledges that the UN convention does not conform to his worldview. You want to change the definition to conform to yours.
You could explain your position instead of acting all high and mighty. You are endorsing a position that is, on the face of it, absurd.
I thought I had explained my position. The UN Convention governs. If taking a position that an international convention governs is high and mighty, then so be it.
Okay, I gave a bunch of examples that would, on the face of it, appear to be genocide according to the convention in a previous post. Could you tell me which ones are in fact genocide and which ones are not and the reason why? The convention seems extremely broad.
Sure, the groups that are terrorist organizations who seek the destruction of the state of Israel fit comfortably within the definition. That is one of the reasons they have been designated as terrorist organizations. The PLO is an interesting case study. It started as a terrorist organization which would have met the definition but which now does not, and particularly after they officially embraced the two state solution. I view that as a hopeful development.
The students connected with those groups that inflict mental pain? The nations that back these groups? Or really any country fighting a war? The PLO might have officially adopted a two-state solution (that hasn't stopped the affiliated Al-Aqsa brigade from promoting the deaths of Jews in general), but they killed people with the intent of wiping out the Jews of Israel before so they would also be guilty of genocide. You don't get off free if you change your mind. So the leaders who served in the PLO from before Oslo are should be tried for genocide. I don't see anyone doing that any time soon.
I don't know the answer to this. How many people who were in the leadership of the PLO prior to the Oslo Accords are still alive?
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 02:41:22 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 04:46:06 PMYou know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago. Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal. Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.
This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong. And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.
If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos. We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).
I wasn't talking about soldiers going off the reservation and massacring civilians. Yes, those should be punished, but most of the deaths are not from that. Sadly, we do operate that way, our history is full of massacres that went unpunished. If the US army was fighting an enemy who used civilians as cover, fought from protected structures, etc we would fight pretty much the same way.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 03:01:27 PMI don't know the answer to this. How many people who were in the leadership of the PLO prior to the Oslo Accords are still alive?
That fat bastard in charge now was. Let's toss him a jail. I'm sorry, CC but the UN convention is insanely broad. It doesn't distinguish between killing 1 or a million. It doesn't require any killing at all, a racist doxing people on the inter-tubes would qualify.
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 02:41:22 PMIf you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos.
That is the main reason I stopped going on social media. I know (knew?) a few Palestinians from Jordan and couldn't stand seeing the videos, pictures and messages they were reposting. Which is an infinitely small proportions of everything they were seeing. I had already started to pull back in 2023, during the previous bombing operation. All their pain, fear and anger, as well as all the senseless horror, shortly followed by more of the same coming from the Armenians I know, proved too much for me.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:07:24 PMa racist doxing people on the inter-tubes would qualify.
No it wouldn't, for all the reasons I have explained in the past.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 03:14:31 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:07:24 PMa racist doxing people on the inter-tubes would qualify.
No it wouldn't, for all the reasons I have explained in the past.
The convention seems to suggest otherwise... I have noticed you pointedly avoid the other stuff about countries that support these groups or just soldiers fighting. Or the stuff about scale.
Anyway, Zoupa you want my stuff or not? I can send pictures! Currently there are ants everywhere, so it will be pictures of my stuff with ants on it. I hope you don't mind.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:21:35 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 03:14:31 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:07:24 PMa racist doxing people on the inter-tubes would qualify.
No it wouldn't, for all the reasons I have explained in the past.
The convention seems to suggest otherwise... I have noticed you pointedly avoid the other stuff about countries that support these groups or just soldiers fighting. Or the stuff about scale.
The key to understanding the Convention is the intent tied to the actions. You bring up a number of examples that do not do that. So I am not sure what the point would be to repeat the same thing I have been saying all along in response to each of your examples.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:02:42 PMQuote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 02:41:22 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 04:46:06 PMYou know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago. Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal. Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.
This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong. And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.
If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos. We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).
I wasn't talking about soldiers going off the reservation and massacring civilians. Yes, those should be punished, but most of the deaths are not from that. Sadly, we do operate that way, our history is full of massacres that went unpunished. If the US army was fighting an enemy who used civilians as cover, fought from protected structures, etc we would fight pretty much the same way.
You would be so wrong, but you're always so confident. :)
Also it's no different than the mid-grade officers firing/allowing the targeting of "suspected" positions with no oversight. Trash.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:28:47 PMAnyway, Zoupa you want my stuff or not? I can send pictures! Currently there are ants everywhere, so it will be pictures of my stuff with ants on it. I hope you don't mind.
I'm more interested in you actually answering the question:
QuoteHonestly, I think it is. If you violate the laws of war and someone gets killed as result, it's your fault.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 03:50:31 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:21:35 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 03:14:31 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:07:24 PMa racist doxing people on the inter-tubes would qualify.
No it wouldn't, for all the reasons I have explained in the past.
The convention seems to suggest otherwise... I have noticed you pointedly avoid the other stuff about countries that support these groups or just soldiers fighting. Or the stuff about scale.
The key to understanding the Convention is the intent tied to the actions. You bring up a number of examples that do not do that. So I am not sure what the point would be to repeat the same thing I have been saying all along in response to each of your examples.
Yes, intent. If you can establish that a person intended to destroy a group of people in whole or in part it is genocide. I think that you establish that in several of the cases. If statements of members of the Israeli government is enough to establish intent of genocide than certainly finding similar statements by members of the military or government of Iran would indicate they are guilty of genocide as well.
The problem again is still scale, a person who intends to kill all of a group but manages to kill only 10 would still count as genocide.
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 04:42:40 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:02:42 PMQuote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 02:41:22 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 04:46:06 PMYou know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago. Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal. Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.
This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong. And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.
If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos. We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).
I wasn't talking about soldiers going off the reservation and massacring civilians. Yes, those should be punished, but most of the deaths are not from that. Sadly, we do operate that way, our history is full of massacres that went unpunished. If the US army was fighting an enemy who used civilians as cover, fought from protected structures, etc we would fight pretty much the same way.
You would be so wrong, but you're always so confident. :)
Also it's no different than the mid-grade officers firing/allowing the targeting of "suspected" positions with no oversight. Trash.
What, we didn't do that in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam? How do we deal with an enemy that surrounds himself with civilians who won't or can't evacuate and is currently firing on US civilian targets? Please, I'd like to know.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 07:19:24 PMQuote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 04:42:40 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:02:42 PMQuote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 02:41:22 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 04:46:06 PMYou know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago. Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal. Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.
This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong. And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.
If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos. We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).
I wasn't talking about soldiers going off the reservation and massacring civilians. Yes, those should be punished, but most of the deaths are not from that. Sadly, we do operate that way, our history is full of massacres that went unpunished. If the US army was fighting an enemy who used civilians as cover, fought from protected structures, etc we would fight pretty much the same way.
You would be so wrong, but you're always so confident. :)
Also it's no different than the mid-grade officers firing/allowing the targeting of "suspected" positions with no oversight. Trash.
What, we didn't do that in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam? How do we deal with an enemy that surrounds himself with civilians who won't or can't evacuate and is currently firing on US civilian targets? Please, I'd like to know.
Well, to start it is no longer WW2, Korea, or Vietnam and hasn't been for 52 years plus.
o Using human shields is a war crime and not behind the war-crimes that Israel is perpetrating.
o The enemy violating LOAC doesn't absolve us of our obligations and we are still required to, shocking as this may be if you are Russian, Israeli, or Raz, not commit war-crimes.
o We keep in mind necessity and proportionality. If it is a private on the ground his life needs to be in imminent danger. If it is an airstrike/drone strike there are JAGs in the room clearing everything with authority still going through the commanding officer, including culpability.
Regardless, it is our ROE/Doctrine to minimize and take all feasible precautions to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. While some, such as SECDEF, believe we need to be able to have more flexibility to accomplish our missions and limit friendly casualties, our efforts to be humane give us credibility and the moral high-ground when compared to the Hamas types.
It also makes sleeping at night a little easier.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 14, 2025, 04:53:57 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:28:47 PMAnyway, Zoupa you want my stuff or not? I can send pictures! Currently there are ants everywhere, so it will be pictures of my stuff with ants on it. I hope you don't mind.
I'm more interested in you actually answering the question:
QuoteHonestly, I think it is. If you violate the laws of war and someone gets killed as result, it's your fault.
Think you messed up there chief. That's not a question. But I know what you want, you want to know how much Hamas can abuse the laws of war before it catches up with them. Honestly, not very much. I guess I'd play along with the proportionality game for a while. The Israelis do. 2 civilians to get one fighter, 10 for a rocket site, 100 for a command and control or ammo dump, etc. But honestly, after years of cynical use of strategic child protective barriers I'd stop giving a shit. I would have a hard to justifying why I should let some religious fantastic kill me because he is more of an asshole than I am.
To turn it around imagine a breakaway state in Maine full of Nazis firing rockets at your hometown. The Nazi believe want every one of you to live under the merciful wing of the 4th Reich, and their charter says they are really for social justice and religious tolerance, the mass murders and rapes notwithstanding. They fire rockets from hospitals, store their ammunition in apartment buildings, and gleefully use children as shields. How many people in Quebec should you sacrifice to protect those poor Aryan children from harm?
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 07:34:21 PMWell, to start it is no longer WW2, Korea, or Vietnam and hasn't been for 52 years plus.
o Using human shields is a war crime and not behind the war-crimes that Israel is perpetrating.
o The enemy violating LOAC doesn't absolve us of our obligations and we are still required to, shocking as this may be if you are Russian, Israeli, or Raz, not commit war-crimes.
o We keep in mind necessity and proportionality. If it is a private on the ground his life needs to be in imminent danger. If it is an airstrike/drone strike there are JAGs in the room clearing everything with authority still going through the commanding officer, including culpability.
Regardless, it is our ROE/Doctrine to minimize and take all feasible precautions to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. While some, such as SECDEF, believe we need to be able to have more flexibility to accomplish our missions and limit friendly casualties, our efforts to be humane give us credibility and the moral high-ground when compared to the Hamas types.
It also makes sleeping at night a little easier.
Right, it's not something we are doing right now. But we have done it in the past and we very well may in the future. We don't have a conscript army and we aren't being hit daily by enemy rockets, factors that might change things. As far as I know, and these doctrines are fairly secret, the US plan for being hit with rockets from a foreign power is to turn the entire enemy country into radioactive slag.
Quote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 07:34:21 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 07:19:24 PMQuote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 04:42:40 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 03:02:42 PMQuote from: Alcibiades on April 14, 2025, 02:41:22 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 12, 2025, 04:46:06 PMYou know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago. Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal. Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.
This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong. And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.
If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos. We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).
I wasn't talking about soldiers going off the reservation and massacring civilians. Yes, those should be punished, but most of the deaths are not from that. Sadly, we do operate that way, our history is full of massacres that went unpunished. If the US army was fighting an enemy who used civilians as cover, fought from protected structures, etc we would fight pretty much the same way.
You would be so wrong, but you're always so confident. :)
Also it's no different than the mid-grade officers firing/allowing the targeting of "suspected" positions with no oversight. Trash.
What, we didn't do that in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam? How do we deal with an enemy that surrounds himself with civilians who won't or can't evacuate and is currently firing on US civilian targets? Please, I'd like to know.
Well, to start it is no longer WW2, Korea, or Vietnam and hasn't been for 52 years plus.
o Using human shields is a war crime and not behind the war-crimes that Israel is perpetrating.
o The enemy violating LOAC doesn't absolve us of our obligations and we are still required to, shocking as this may be if you are Russian, Israeli, or Raz, not commit war-crimes.
o We keep in mind necessity and proportionality. If it is a private on the ground his life needs to be in imminent danger. If it is an airstrike/drone strike there are JAGs in the room clearing everything with authority still going through the commanding officer, including culpability.
Regardless, it is our ROE/Doctrine to minimize and take all feasible precautions to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. While some, such as SECDEF, believe we need to be able to have more flexibility to accomplish our missions and limit friendly casualties, our efforts to be humane give us credibility and the moral high-ground when compared to the Hamas types.
It also makes sleeping at night a little easier.
I am very thankful there are people like you in the world.
Yes, I don't the Razes of the world should be anywhere near ROE drafting/approval etc.
Anyways, I've got my answer Raz. I think I'm done on this subject.
Guess I should have made you answer my questions before I answered yours. Oh well, I have a feeling I know how you would answer.
Hamas kills 1200 people, . "So how many non-Hamas Palestinians are you cool with killing?"
Trump gets elected "You made your bed"
https://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,11775.msg1470216.html#msg1470216
Fuck man, you were demanding I use violence because of Trump. You don't expect shit from Palestinians when they are dragging corpses through the streets and watching kids kick the bodies. Goddamn double standards and bigotry of low expectations.
Quote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 09:21:49 AMUnlike some I don't think this is a simple black and white issue.
What complications would you like to introduce?
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 14, 2025, 12:31:05 PMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 11:41:04 AMReally?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.
No.
So why does October 7th qualify?
Is it the number of attackers involved? That there was an elected government involved? The number of dead crossed a certain number (what?)?
QuoteI note that at least Raz acknowledges that the UN convention does not conform to his worldview. You want to change the definition to conform to yours.
What? This makes no sense. I don't acknowledge the UN convention differs from my view because it doesn't.
You're the one innovating on it by claiming October 7th was not just conducted with genocidal intent but actually crossed the threshold to be genocide.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2025, 01:39:14 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 14, 2025, 09:21:49 AMUnlike some I don't think this is a simple black and white issue.
What complications would you like to introduce?
In Gaza we don't have full evidence and Israel hasn't finished whatever it is they're doing yet.
It certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing and they have form in this from the West Bank. It warrants investigation. But its not a clear yes they are or no they aren't.
Quote from: Josquius on April 15, 2025, 06:43:19 AMIn Gaza we don't have full evidence and Israel hasn't finished whatever it is they're doing yet.
It certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing and they have form in this from the West Bank. It warrants investigation. But its not a clear yes they are or no they aren't.
What evidence have you examined to conclude it certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2025, 06:51:46 AMQuote from: Josquius on April 15, 2025, 06:43:19 AMIn Gaza we don't have full evidence and Israel hasn't finished whatever it is they're doing yet.
It certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing and they have form in this from the West Bank. It warrants investigation. But its not a clear yes they are or no they aren't.
What evidence have you examined to conclude it certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing?
I'm not playing this game.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyr154314vo
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/04/15/how-israel-is-seizing-large-parts-of-the-gaza-strip-and-reshaping-the-palestinian-territory_6740230_4.html
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2025, 06:51:46 AMWhat evidence have you examined to conclude it certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing?
- Destroying the territory to render it uninhabitable
- Statements by high cabinet officials that the goal is to remove the entire population.\
- Trump proposing the removal of the entire population in front of Bibi and Bibi not denying or rejecting
Generally it is preferable to try to stop ethnic cleansing before it happens rather than wait it see when and if it happens.
IMO there is more than enough smoke now to send out the firefighters.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 08:46:54 PMAs far as I know, and these doctrines are fairly secret, the US plan for being hit with rockets from a foreign power is to turn the entire enemy country into radioactive slag.
Unless those "rockets" are ICBMs or SLBMs tipped with nuclear warheads, it most certainly is not. Equating battlefield artillery rockets like Hamas uses to those is pretty disingenuous.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 15, 2025, 08:59:00 AM- Destroying the territory to render it uninhabitable
- Statements by high cabinet officials that the goal is to remove the entire population.\
- Trump proposing the removal of the entire population in front of Bibi and Bibi not denying or rejecting
The US and UK rendered much of Germany and Japan uninhabitable to the same degree yet those countries remain uncleansed of ethnic Germans and Japanese.
If you accept the Britania definition of ethnic cleansing that I posted, a claim that Israel is conducting ethnic cleansing is a prediction of the future: at some point part or all of Gaza will be
Arabfrei and homogeneously settled by Jews.
Most or all of the people who describe the current conduct of Israel as genocide or ethnic cleansing don't do so from a analytic point of view but rather an emotive point of view. They need an emotionally loaded term to communicate the strong emotions they are feeling. I empathize with that need. People need to vent. And the conundrum is if those people were to concede they are not predicting genocide or ethnic cleansing per se but a figurative genocide, it would dilute the usefullness of the term as a venting mechanism.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2025, 11:56:13 AMThe US and UK rendered much of Germany and Japan uninhabitable to the same degree yet those countries remain uncleansed of ethnic Germans and Japanese.
Really? Are we going here?
I mean besides the fact the Germans were ethnically cleansed in one of the largest such events in world history after the war. Not sure that is a good counter-example.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2025, 11:56:13 AMThe US and UK rendered much of Germany and Japan uninhabitable to the same degree yet those countries remain uncleansed of ethnic Germans and Japanese.
I believe only the cities were seriously damaged in WWII, the entire countries were not laid to waste. Gaza is in effect a city-state so to make the comparison one would have to imagine the entire land area of Germany reduced to a Dresden-style state.
In any event, after flirting with the Morgenthau plan concept, the US opted for a policy of reconstruction. The Soviets on the other hand did pursue and carry out a program of ethnic cleansing in many areas under their control, so the risk was very much there.
QuoteMost or all of the people who describe the current conduct of Israel as genocide or ethnic cleansing don't do so from a analytic point of view but rather an emotive point of view. They need an emotionally loaded term to communicate the strong emotions they are feeling.
That's true, but it is also true that there are senior figures within the Israeli government that have raised proposals to remove the existing population. Emotion or no, those statements should be taken seriously.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2025, 11:58:35 AMReally? Are we going here?
I mean besides the fact the Germans were ethnically cleansed in one of the largest such events in world history after the war. Not sure that is a good counter-example.
It's a wonderful counter example. The Germans didn't flee from bombing toward the advancing Soviet army. They fled from the Soviets toward the bombing. The area they vacated was the most habitable part of Germany at the time.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on April 15, 2025, 12:02:42 PMThat's true, but it is also true that there are senior figures within the Israeli government that have raised proposals to remove the existing population. Emotion or no, those statements should be taken seriously.
Anyone who wants to chant that at a protest has my full blessing.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on April 15, 2025, 10:20:16 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 14, 2025, 08:46:54 PMAs far as I know, and these doctrines are fairly secret, the US plan for being hit with rockets from a foreign power is to turn the entire enemy country into radioactive slag.
Unless those "rockets" are ICBMs or SLBMs tipped with nuclear warheads, it most certainly is not. Equating battlefield artillery rockets like Hamas uses to those is pretty disingenuous.
The only rockets coming into the US are likely to be ICBMs and I have a feeling we won't wait till they explode to see if they have nukes on them before we respond. Anyway my point stands, our current military doctrine involves killing millions of civilians if sufficiently provoked.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2025, 12:07:43 PMQuote from: The Minsky Moment on April 15, 2025, 12:02:42 PMThat's true, but it is also true that there are senior figures within the Israeli government that have raised proposals to remove the existing population. Emotion or no, those statements should be taken seriously.
Anyone who wants to chant that at a protest has my full blessing.
Or they can chant it as plain clothed police pick them up after the protest. Either one.
Quote from: Valmy on April 15, 2025, 12:37:17 PMOr they can chant it as plain clothed police pick them up after the protest. Either one.
Why not both? One does not preclude the other.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2025, 12:40:11 PMQuote from: Valmy on April 15, 2025, 12:37:17 PMOr they can chant it as plain clothed police pick them up after the protest. Either one.
Why not both? One does not preclude the other.
True.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 15, 2025, 12:29:08 PMThe only rockets coming into the US are likely to be ICBMs and I have a feeling we won't wait till they explode to see if they have nukes on them before we respond.
That would depend on how many and whether we could intercept them. Employment of strategic nuclear weapons is not something that would be undertaken lightly, as it would likely trigger a world-destroying chain reaction if it came from the US.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 15, 2025, 12:29:08 PMAnyway my point stands, our current military doctrine involves killing millions of civilians if sufficiently provoked.
Yes, there is a policy that in some cases would do this.
My point is that it would be proportional, as only an attack that would, itself, involve killing millions of civilians would be sufficient to provoke it. Also, the primary purpose of that policy is to prevent said attack from happening in the first place. Nuclear weapons are a completely different ball game from anything conventional, and you
cannot sensibly equivocate between a nuclear exchange and any sort of conventional attack.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 15, 2025, 12:05:39 PMIt's a wonderful counter example. The Germans didn't flee from bombing toward the advancing Soviet army. They fled from the Soviets toward the bombing. The area they vacated was the most habitable part of Germany at the time.
Germans were also ethnically cleansed after the bombing stopped. See: Sudetenland, Pomerania, Upper Silesia, Eastern Brandenburg etc (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944%E2%80%931950)). Wikipedia has the number of deaths ranging from 500,000 to 2.5 million and the number of people displaced between 12 and 14.6 million.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on April 15, 2025, 01:15:30 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 15, 2025, 12:29:08 PMThe only rockets coming into the US are likely to be ICBMs and I have a feeling we won't wait till they explode to see if they have nukes on them before we respond.
That would depend on how many and whether we could intercept them. Employment of strategic nuclear weapons is not something that would be undertaken lightly, as it would likely trigger a world-destroying chain reaction if it came from the US.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 15, 2025, 12:29:08 PMAnyway my point stands, our current military doctrine involves killing millions of civilians if sufficiently provoked.
Yes, there is a policy that in some cases would do this. My point is that it would be proportional, as only an attack that would, itself, involve killing millions of civilians would be sufficient to provoke it. Also, the primary purpose of that policy is to prevent said attack from happening in the first place. Nuclear weapons are a completely different ball game from anything conventional, and you cannot sensibly equivocate between a nuclear exchange and any sort of conventional attack.
Would it be? If one nuke, launched by Iran, was launched at a US military in the middle east and killed 1,000 people, do you think the counter attack would be proportional? Probably not.
The truth is we don't know how the US would respond to rocket attacks on it's civilians. I doubt it would be proportional, and if they were landing near you, I doubt you would want them to be proportional. I remember how blood thirsty everyone was right after 9/11.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 15, 2025, 01:57:41 PMWould it be? If one nuke, launched by Iran, was launched at a US military in the middle east and killed 1,000 people, do you think the counter attack would be proportional? Probably not.
Yes, I think it would. I think if Iran nuked a single American base in the Middle East, the response would be the systematic conventional destruction of Iran's entire military, followed by occupation. I also think if this actually happened that the entire rest of the world, save Russia and maybe China, would be on board with this. Nobody is going to start a nuclear war over use of a single weapon, so long as whomever used that weapon can be taken down and disarmed conventionally.
Again, nuclear weapons are a special case. Their use in today's world is so dangerous that it cannot be tolerated, including in response to a minor usage. You can't move the calculus in such a hypothetical to any situation that doesn't involve nuclear weapons.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 15, 2025, 01:57:41 PMThe truth is we don't know how the US would respond to rocket attacks on it's civilians. I doubt it would be proportional, and if they were landing near you, I doubt you would want them to be proportional. I remember how blood thirsty everyone was right after 9/11.
The question of how the US would react is separate from the question of what reaction is appropriate. In fact, decisions made in anger often are
not appropriate responses. I remember after 9/11 the douchebag assholes like the CEO of Stratfor who implored people to "remember how they felt on September 12th" when judging how to react. That's the wrong way to do so, and it leads to actions that are wrong. That they are emotional responses does not justify them.
Ukraine is constantly getting hit via missiles on civilian centers. I'm sure you folks have seen the attack on Sumy on Sunday with 34 civilians killed (2 children). Wounded in the hundreds.
Several russian cities like Kursk and Belgorod are well within strike range for retaliation, yet Ukraine doesn't do it. The emotional response would be to hit those cities. I've seen plenty of Ukrainians wishing for it after Sumy, or Mariupol, or Bucha, the list goes on.
Different armies have different morals. The AFU differs from the IDF.
If Ukraine could flatten Russian cities they would and would be totally justified.
Quote from: chipwich on April 15, 2025, 08:01:29 PMIf Ukraine could flatten Russian cities they would and would be totally justified.
They can't flatter Russian cities, but they can do some damage, and they've proven they can in the past.
They chose to exercise restrain. They also chose not to execute or humiliate Russian prisoners, North Korean prisoners, Chinese prisoners and other foreign nationals they capture, despite the opposite thing happening to their soldiers when they are captured by Russians.
The US had the capacity to flatten all of Iraq cities in retaliation for some of the attacks on their soldiers when they invaded. They didn't. The US could have flattened Kandahar and Kabul in Afghanistan after 9/11. They didn't. Despite having a gung-ho administration at the helm.
Quote from: viper37 on April 15, 2025, 09:15:20 PMThey can't flatter Russian cities, but they can do some damage, and they've proven they can in the past.
They have more urgent targets than civilian targets. If it becomes in their interest and capacity to bombard Russian cities, they should and will do so.
QuoteThey also chose not to execute or humiliate Russian prisoners, North Korean prisoners, Chinese prisoners and other foreign nationals they capture, despite the opposite thing happening to their soldiers when they are captured by Russians.
Neither Israel nor Ukraine torture and kill prisoners because it isn't beneficial to do so, it's even counterproductive. Hamas and Russia torture prisoners because they are evil sadists who deserve to be annihilated.
Quote from: viper37 on April 15, 2025, 09:15:20 PMThe US had the capacity to flatten all of Iraq cities in retaliation for some of the attacks on their soldiers when they invaded. They didn't. The US could have flattened Kandahar and Kabul in Afghanistan after 9/11. They didn't. Despite having a gung-ho administration at the helm.
I seem to recall the US bombing a Doctors Without borders hospital and justifying it as being used by the enemy and thus unprotected.
The city of Fallujah was flattened, Mosul was destroyed during the war with ISIS, Raqqa was left in ruins. I think we used WP against human targets in Fallujah. As for the Ukrainians the town of Russian Sudza was pretty torn up from the fighting. I don't know if Russia fires missiles at Ukraine from hospitals in Kursk or Belgorod though I doubt it. And if they did I don't think the Ukrainians have the fire power to effectively counter it. It's not like they can just fly over there and drop bombs.
Quote from: chipwich on April 15, 2025, 10:15:48 PMNeither Israel nor Ukraine torture and kill prisoners because it isn't beneficial to do so, it's even counterproductive. Hamas and Russia torture prisoners because they are evil sadists who deserve to be annihilated.
I'm guessing you haven't seen all the reports of torture and humiliation of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons.
Some very nice selective reading, factual distortions and bias in this thread. Keep it up!
Quote from: Solmyr on April 16, 2025, 03:32:04 AMQuote from: chipwich on April 15, 2025, 10:15:48 PMNeither Israel nor Ukraine torture and kill prisoners because it isn't beneficial to do so, it's even counterproductive. Hamas and Russia torture prisoners because they are evil sadists who deserve to be annihilated.
I'm guessing you haven't seen all the reports of torture and humiliation of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons.
There are reports of Ukrainians torturing and killing Russian POWs as well, you really want to play the "Both sides!" game in Ukraine?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 15, 2025, 01:57:41 PMWould it be? If one nuke, launched by Iran, was launched at a US military in the middle east and killed 1,000 people, do you think the counter attack would be proportional? Probably not.
The truth is we don't know how the US would respond to rocket attacks on it's civilians. I doubt it would be proportional, and if they were landing near you, I doubt you would want them to be proportional. I remember how blood thirsty everyone was right after 9/11.
You are way out over your skis, here. I've been involved in air strike planning on the staff of Commander, Carrier Group Four, and I can tell you that proportionality and collateral damage are specifically addressed in the planning (as Alci pointed out, with the staff JAG there to ensure compliance with the LoAC).
Stick to claims that you have some assurance might be true. Don't invent claims because you have no actual claims to present.
Quote from: chipwich on April 15, 2025, 10:15:48 PMNeither Israel nor Ukraine torture and kill prisoners because it isn't beneficial to do so, it's even counterproductive. Hamas and Russia torture prisoners because they are evil sadists who deserve to be annihilated.
Israel routinely kills pow, civilians, and humiliates prisoners on top of aid workers who are deliberately targeted.
Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests (https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/)
Bruises and broken ribs – Palestinian deaths in Israeli prisons
(https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68780112)"Point-Blank": Israeli Soldiers Execute 15 Gaza Medics & Rescue Workers, Bury in Unmarked Mass Grave (https://www.democracynow.org/2025/4/7/gaza_massacre)
Israel is not even hiding about its desire to do more:
Israeli minister Ben Gvir calls for execution of Palestinian prisoners to ease overcrowding
(https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-itamar-ben-gvir-calls-execution-palestinans-ease-overcrowding-prisons)
Quote from: Solmyr on April 16, 2025, 03:32:04 AMI'm guessing you haven't seen all the reports of torture and humiliation of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons.
Without forgetting how that interacts with all the reports of unjustified imprisonments of Palestinians.
Quote from: grumbler on April 16, 2025, 09:54:30 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 15, 2025, 01:57:41 PMWould it be? If one nuke, launched by Iran, was launched at a US military in the middle east and killed 1,000 people, do you think the counter attack would be proportional? Probably not.
The truth is we don't know how the US would respond to rocket attacks on it's civilians. I doubt it would be proportional, and if they were landing near you, I doubt you would want them to be proportional. I remember how blood thirsty everyone was right after 9/11.
You are way out over your skis, here. I've been involved in air strike planning on the staff of Commander, Carrier Group Four, and I can tell you that proportionality and collateral damage are specifically addressed in the planning (as Alci pointed out, with the staff JAG there to ensure compliance with the LoAC).
Stick to claims that you have some assurance might be true. Don't invent claims because you have no actual claims to present.
Show your work.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2025, 11:12:43 AMShow your work.
What? He cited his personal experience? What do you want? A live video feed of something that happened years ago?
Quote from: Valmy on April 16, 2025, 11:15:20 AMQuote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2025, 11:12:43 AMShow your work.
What? He cited his personal experience? What do you want? A live video feed of something that happened years ago?
Actually, that was a joke. Any work he did on that would be classified. He couldn't show his work. I will concede, that point.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 16, 2025, 03:32:04 AMQuote from: chipwich on April 15, 2025, 10:15:48 PMNeither Israel nor Ukraine torture and kill prisoners because it isn't beneficial to do so, it's even counterproductive. Hamas and Russia torture prisoners because they are evil sadists who deserve to be annihilated.
I'm guessing you haven't seen all the reports of torture and humiliation of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons.
I've seen "reports". I haven't seen videos of braying mobs abusing corpses while chanting Allah Ackbar that are posted to the victim's social media accounts.
Quote from: chipwich on April 16, 2025, 01:59:29 PMI've seen "reports". I haven't seen videos of braying mobs abusing corpses while chanting Allah Ackbar that are posted to the victim's social media accounts.
There were reports of Palestinians recapturing Israeli hostages and returning them to their Hamas captors.
I have not seen video evidence of this.
I have also read of reports of UNRWA members working for Hamas, instead of maintaining a strict neutrality to simply help Palestinian refugees. No video evidence of this.
I will now assume this is fake news.
No video, no proof.
I think it should be like that in courts too. If you don't have a recording, it's false. Same for journalistic reports. If they don't have video recordings of what they report, it is fake news.
Quote from: chipwich on April 16, 2025, 01:59:29 PMQuote from: Solmyr on April 16, 2025, 03:32:04 AMQuote from: chipwich on April 15, 2025, 10:15:48 PMNeither Israel nor Ukraine torture and kill prisoners because it isn't beneficial to do so, it's even counterproductive. Hamas and Russia torture prisoners because they are evil sadists who deserve to be annihilated.
I'm guessing you haven't seen all the reports of torture and humiliation of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons.
I've seen "reports". I haven't seen videos of braying mobs abusing corpses while chanting Allah Ackbar that are posted to the victim's social media accounts.
And if you did see pictures of Israeli soldiers chanting that, you should probably assume its an AI fake.
There are reports from Palestinians that Oct 7th was a false flag and the Israelis killed all those people. Also, the official newspaper of the PLO reports that the Israelis are recruiting and training cows to spy on Palestinians.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2025, 05:01:52 PMQuote from: chipwich on April 16, 2025, 01:59:29 PMQuote from: Solmyr on April 16, 2025, 03:32:04 AMQuote from: chipwich on April 15, 2025, 10:15:48 PMNeither Israel nor Ukraine torture and kill prisoners because it isn't beneficial to do so, it's even counterproductive. Hamas and Russia torture prisoners because they are evil sadists who deserve to be annihilated.
I'm guessing you haven't seen all the reports of torture and humiliation of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons.
I've seen "reports". I haven't seen videos of braying mobs abusing corpses while chanting Allah Ackbar that are posted to the victim's social media accounts.
And if you did see pictures of Israeli soldiers chanting that, you should probably assume its an AI fake.
Well, Israeli soldiers chanting "Allah Ackbar" would be a red flag.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2025, 05:05:04 PMQuote from: crazy canuck on April 16, 2025, 05:01:52 PMQuote from: chipwich on April 16, 2025, 01:59:29 PMQuote from: Solmyr on April 16, 2025, 03:32:04 AMQuote from: chipwich on April 15, 2025, 10:15:48 PMNeither Israel nor Ukraine torture and kill prisoners because it isn't beneficial to do so, it's even counterproductive. Hamas and Russia torture prisoners because they are evil sadists who deserve to be annihilated.
I'm guessing you haven't seen all the reports of torture and humiliation of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons.
I've seen "reports". I haven't seen videos of braying mobs abusing corpses while chanting Allah Ackbar that are posted to the victim's social media accounts.
And if you did see pictures of Israeli soldiers chanting that, you should probably assume its an AI fake.
Well, Israeli soldiers chanting "Allah Ackbar" would be a red flag.
See, we can agree on something in this thread :D
Quote from: Razgovory on April 16, 2025, 08:05:27 AMQuote from: Solmyr on April 16, 2025, 03:32:04 AMQuote from: chipwich on April 15, 2025, 10:15:48 PMNeither Israel nor Ukraine torture and kill prisoners because it isn't beneficial to do so, it's even counterproductive. Hamas and Russia torture prisoners because they are evil sadists who deserve to be annihilated.
I'm guessing you haven't seen all the reports of torture and humiliation of Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons.
There are reports of Ukrainians torturing and killing Russian POWs as well, you really want to play the "Both sides!" game in Ukraine?
Do you really want to play the whataboutism game? Ukrainians torturing and killing Russian POWs is wrong as well. Chipwich claimed that neither Israel nor Ukraine do it, which is just incorrect.
Yes, it is wrong but does it diminish your support for Ukraine? Those NeoNazis that fought for Ukraine, did that cause you to throw up your hands and say "well both sides are bad"? Of course not.
If anything, Israel's bombing of civilians is more comparable to what Russia is doing.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 18, 2025, 03:59:45 AMIf anything, Israel's bombing of civilians is more comparable to what Russia is doing.
Both yes and no. They both kill civilians and sometimes they miss and kill civilians that are not legitimate targets.
Just that the Russian ratio of misses/expended ammo is probably miles higher and sometimes probably not misses.
I still have no clue what the Israeli end game is. A quick, brutal and successful defeat of Hamas I would support. This drawn out half measure is just horrible, better to get out of Gaza and rebuild the wall.
Quote from: Solmyr on April 18, 2025, 03:59:45 AMIf anything, Israel's bombing of civilians is more comparable to what Russia is doing.
Zelenskyy seems to feel differently. The main difference is that the Russia rockets fall on Europe, Palestinian rockets fall on Israel. You and so many like you are willing to over look the flaws of Ukraine because it is your ass on the line. You could also be victims of Russian aggression. Your high minded ideals decline into cold hearted pragmatism when you are in danger, that's why Finland is exiting the Landmine treaty. That's why you overlook NeoNazis that fight for you, that is why martial law is okay in Ukraine. Hamas and Hezbollah are no danger to you, if they were, you would have much less of a problem with the deaths of Palestinians.
To be honest, the antizionists sound a great deal like the Ukraine skeptics, just for different sides. In people like Tucker Carlson you have both. Dislike for both Ukraine and Israel.
Hey Raz, what's wrong with martial law in Ukraine exactly?
Also, do you have any data on the percentage of neo-nazis that fight in the Ukrainian Armed Forces?
Thanks.
Also, Israel will have a delegation for Moscow's May 9th parade. They will join forces with the much respected Azerbaijan, Belarus, Serbia, Tajikistan and North Korea. So much winning!
Quote from: Zoupa on April 18, 2025, 12:25:33 PMHey Raz, what's wrong with martial law in Ukraine exactly?
Also, do you have any data on the percentage of neo-nazis that fight in the Ukrainian Armed Forces?
Thanks.
They had a brigade, the Ukraine skeptics bring it up all the time. They bring up the marital law that blocks the elections calling Zelensky a dictator. I suppose if Israel did this you would have a problem with it. But Ukraine fights for you, so it's not a problem. Like I said, you demand I commit violence because of what Trump says, why don't you demand that of the Gazans for the murder and rapes their government commits? We Americans all are guilty due to Trump, why not the same for Palestinians?
Both Ukraine and Israel have flaws, but they try to be democracies and they fight against something far worse. You balls of light shine so brightly when denouncing Americans and Israelis, but when Russian tanks go west and European blood is spilt you dim down to same level of as the unenlightened rest of humanity.
Yeah this ain't it. I have no problems with Gazans/Israelis/anybody getting rid of Hamas. The issue I have with Israel's response is the casual disregard for collateral casualties, contrary to how I imagined modern, western armies fight. Thankfully my views were confirmed by military personnel in this very thread, cognizant of the rules of engagement.
I wouldn't have a problem with any country declaring martial law if they're engaged in war. That's the whole point of martial law, so you're wrong again on that point.
I never "demanded" you commit violence because of what Trump says/does lol. You overestimate how much the rest of the world cares or is even impacted by what happens in domestic US politics. You guys can turn into a dystopian technocratic feudal system if you want.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 17, 2025, 07:08:14 AMYes, it is wrong but does it diminish your support for Ukraine? Those NeoNazis that fought for Ukraine, did that cause you to throw up your hands and say "well both sides are bad"? Of course not.
Interesting. You seem to finally understand the position of those who sympathise with the Palestinians.
Of course Hamas are bad. Thats not in doubt.
But is their being evil scumbags any reason to to damn every Palestinian?
Quote from: Zoupa on April 18, 2025, 01:56:31 PMYeah this ain't it. I have no problems with Gazans/Israelis/anybody getting rid of Hamas. The issue I have with Israel's response is the casual disregard for collateral casualties, contrary to how I imagined modern, western armies fight. Thankfully my views were confirmed by military personnel in this very thread, cognizant of the rules of engagement.
I wouldn't have a problem with any country declaring martial law if they're engaged in war. That's the whole point of martial law, so you're wrong again on that point.
I never "demanded" you commit violence because of what Trump says/does lol. You overestimate how much the rest of the world cares or is even impacted by what happens in domestic US politics. You guys can turn into a dystopian technocratic feudal system if you want.
Raz: And then what? What is our game plan when the majority of the population is terrible? This is utterly self-defeating.
Zoupa: Violence
Raz: You want me to kill my neighbors? Holy shit, you're crazier than I am.
Zoupa: I figure there'd be a few steps prior to that. Civil disobedience. Violence against property. History shows that if you want to fight fascism, you're gonna have to put your body on the line eventually.
https://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,14439.msg1472525.html#msg1472525
The Palestinians don't fight fascism for the most part, they celebrate it. The ones that protested it were murdered.
When it comes to Americans you spaz out, we made our bed. Trump threatens to annex you, suddenly all people in a nation are fair game. Cry about you said. Would you tell the kids that kicked Shani Louk's corpse to cry about it?
(https://i.imgur.com/BtT9jur.jpeg)
This isn't a deal breaker for you because your interests are directly tired to Ukraine. You tolerate it, you support it, because the Russian tanks are going toward you. How many Russian civilian deaths are acceptable to preserve Europe? 50k? 100K? At what point would you say "fuck it, let the Russian overrun all of Europe! We deserve it!".
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2025, 12:44:47 PMThey bring up the marital law that blocks the elections calling Zelensky a dictator.
How do you organize free elections in a warzone?
Israel maintains itself in a war so that Bibi won't be arrested in his own country.
QuoteWe Americans all are guilty due to Trump, why not the same for Palestinians?
When another country is attacked by America, the rationale used is usually along the lines of "if they didn't support their government, they would rebel". You used a variation of the same line for Palestinians, saying they deserved to be slaughtered by Israel because of a survey indicating support for Hamas.
Don't be surprised if tolerance for Americans asking to immigrate in our countries is very low. We're asking you to fix your mess.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2025, 02:29:32 PMThis isn't a deal breaker for you because your interests are directly tired to Ukraine. You tolerate it, you support it, because the Russian tanks are going toward you. How many Russian civilian deaths are acceptable to preserve Europe? 50k? 100K? At what point would you say "fuck it, let the Russian overrun all of Europe! We deserve it!".
You keep coming back to the Azov Brigade, using material that is over a decade old at this point. While there are probably still some neo-Nazis in the brigade, it is not a neo-Nazi unit, and has had the support of Ukrainian Jewish groups and a Jewish billionaire for years. You are almost at the level of Russian propaganda on this right now.
As to the broader issue...
One, Zoupa is Canadian. He doesn't have to worry about Russian tanks overrunning his home, unless the US invasion of Canada actually happens and Daddy Putin helps.
Two, in three years of open war Ukraine has killed roughly 1,000 Russian civilians, despite their attacks on Russian infrastructure and on military targets in populated areas. Sure, if they had more capability to perform these strikes the casualty numbers would be higher, but they still strike with precision and minimal collateral damage.
Three, you are uncharitably oversimplifying the situation. Nobody is absolving Ukraine of any and all actions it takes just because they're fighting the Russians. If Ukraine was hitting Russian targets without care, and needlessly killing Russian civilians in the process, they would be getting shit, too.
Four, you seem to be trying really hard to paint a picture of collective guilt for all Palestinians, while rejecting it for Americans. You can't highlight instances of Palestinians Behaving Badly and claim it represents all Palestinians any more than you can highlight Americans Behaving Badly and claim it represents all Americans.
Also, the quotes you posted prove that Zoupa did not demand anything. He just indicated that violence needed to be on the table, to be wielded at some point if lesser means failed.
Quote from: viper37 on April 18, 2025, 03:26:23 PMWhen another country is attacked by America, the rationale used is usually along the lines of "if they didn't support their government, they would rebel".
No, it isn't, at least not by anybody who's serious. The last two countries we invaded we partnered with rebels who were actively fighting the ruling government. In Iraq in particular we had this idea that we would be greeted as liberators, which we were... for about 3.5 minutes.
While it's commendable that you guys are trying to convince Raz that indiscrimatly killing Muslims is bad thing I doubt you'll ever succeed
Quote from: HVC on April 18, 2025, 03:55:47 PMWhile it's commendable that you guys are trying to convince Raz that indiscrimatly killing Muslims is bad thing I doubt you'll ever succeed
Is that what Raz is for? I missed it.
Hey Raz, indiscriminately killing Muslims is a bad thing.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 18, 2025, 03:59:06 PMQuote from: HVC on April 18, 2025, 03:55:47 PMWhile it's commendable that you guys are trying to convince Raz that indiscrimatly killing Muslims is bad thing I doubt you'll ever succeed
Is that what Raz is for? I missed it.
Hey Raz, indiscriminately killing Muslims is a bad thing.
While half heart i guess I'll commend you too :P . Bad news though, won't work :console:
Quote from: HVC on April 18, 2025, 04:03:31 PMWhile half heart i guess I'll commend you too :P . Bad news though, won't work :console:
I don't accept your premise.
Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on April 18, 2025, 03:32:31 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2025, 02:29:32 PMThis isn't a deal breaker for you because your interests are directly tired to Ukraine. You tolerate it, you support it, because the Russian tanks are going toward you. How many Russian civilian deaths are acceptable to preserve Europe? 50k? 100K? At what point would you say "fuck it, let the Russian overrun all of Europe! We deserve it!".
You keep coming back to the Azov Brigade, using material that is over a decade old at this point. While there are probably still some neo-Nazis in the brigade, it is not a neo-Nazi unit, and has had the support of Ukrainian Jewish groups and a Jewish billionaire for years. You are almost at the level of Russian propaganda on this right now.
As to the broader issue...
One, Zoupa is Canadian. He doesn't have to worry about Russian tanks overrunning his home, unless the US invasion of Canada actually happens and Daddy Putin helps.
Two, in three years of open war Ukraine has killed roughly 1,000 Russian civilians, despite their attacks on Russian infrastructure and on military targets in populated areas. Sure, if they had more capability to perform these strikes the casualty numbers would be higher, but they still strike with precision and minimal collateral damage.
Three, you are uncharitably oversimplifying the situation. Nobody is absolving Ukraine of any and all actions it takes just because they're fighting the Russians. If Ukraine was hitting Russian targets without care, and needlessly killing Russian civilians in the process, they would be getting shit, too.
Four, you seem to be trying really hard to paint a picture of collective guilt for all Palestinians, while rejecting it for Americans. You can't highlight instances of Palestinians Behaving Badly and claim it represents all Palestinians any more than you can highlight Americans Behaving Badly and claim it represents all Americans.
Also, the quotes you posted prove that Zoupa did not demand anything. He just indicated that violence needed to be on the table, to be wielded at some point if lesser means failed.
Where have I said that all Palestinians Palestinians are guilty? Where have I said that indiscriminately killing Muslims isn't bad? Please show me. I brought up the Azov brigade because it is brought up by Ukraine skeptics, who like the antizionists point to far-right elements on the good guys side to diminish support for a democratic state fighting fascists. Bringing up the Azov brigade makes you sound like Russian propaganda, that is true. Who's propaganda does going on about how bad the Israelis are sound like? The war in Ukraine has cost few Russian civilians because it has been fought mainly in Ukraine and because the Russians don't fight from hospitals and schools for the most part. If the civilian casualties were higher it wouldn't matter one wit. Europe wouldn't just roll over let the Russians have what they want because of bad behavior on the part of Ukraine. When we fought ISIS many, many civilians died. The Kurds estimated 40k in Mosul alone. At no point did the world throw up their hands and say "Well, let ISIS win, it's better than civilian deaths." I doubt the Kurds were that scrupulous with ROE. The truth is we didn't care. We felt the cause was good enough so we looked the other way.
Anyone, and I mean anyone, who tells me that they would prefer rockets fall on their home and kill their family rather than kill enemy civilians is a liar or a lunatic. Any political leader, President Zelenesky, President Trump, President Obama, or President Abe Lincoln would make the destruction of those rocket sites the main priority. And if the enemy fired them from schools or hospitals or apartment buildings those structures would be destroyed.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2025, 04:40:31 PM(snip) The truth is we didn't care. We felt the cause was good enough so we looked the other way.
The fact that
you believe that the ends justify the means doesn't signify anything for anyone but you.
And don't argue that your statement doesn't equal "the ends justify the means," because that argument will just make you look like a cowardly weasel.
Quote from: grumbler on April 18, 2025, 05:27:30 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2025, 04:40:31 PM(snip) The truth is we didn't care. We felt the cause was good enough so we looked the other way.
The fact that you believe that the ends justify the means doesn't signify anything for anyone but you.
And don't argue that your statement doesn't equal "the ends justify the means," because that argument will just make you look like a cowardly weasel.
Okay, why did
you look the other way? I don't remember one post on this forum about the concern that the Iraqis killed too many civilians taking Mosul. Nobody said we need to stop bombing of Raqqa, out of concern for civilian casualties. Every poster here can post why they didn't feel it wasn't important to object to humanitarian catastrophe we were contributing to in the war against ISIS.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2025, 05:38:26 PMQuote from: grumbler on April 18, 2025, 05:27:30 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2025, 04:40:31 PM(snip) The truth is we didn't care. We felt the cause was good enough so we looked the other way.
The fact that you believe that the ends justify the means doesn't signify anything for anyone but you.
And don't argue that your statement doesn't equal "the ends justify the means," because that argument will just make you look like a cowardly weasel.
Okay, why did you look the other way? I don't remember one post on this forum about the concern that the Iraqis killed too many civilians taking Mosul. Nobody said we need to stop bombing of Raqqa, out of concern for civilian casualties. Every poster here can post why they didn't feel it wasn't important to object to humanitarian catastrophe we were contributing to in the war against ISIS.
I didn't look the other way. You get to say that you looked away. You don't get to say that I looked away. What you do or don't remember about what was said is irrelevant. I don't live on this forum and don't talk that much about military affairs here. I've got other fra that focus on those sorts of things.
And, in any case, the civilian losses in Mosul caused by Coalition forces pale compared to those inflicted by the Israelis in Gaza. Mosul had a population of 1.5 million compared to Gaza's 2.1 million, and suffered a bit less than 10,000 deaths, a thorough AP investigation noted. Further,
QuoteOf the nearly 10,000 deaths the AP found, around a third of the casualties died in bombardments by the U.S.-led coalition or Iraqi forces, the AP analysis found. Another third of the dead were killed in the Islamic State group's final frenzy of violence. And it could not be determined which side was responsible for the deaths of the remainder, who were cowering in neighborhoods battered by airstrikes, IS explosives and mortar rounds from all sides.
Mosul is a graveyard: Final IS battle kills 9,000 civilians (https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-only-on-ap-islamic-state-group-bbea7094fb954838a2fdc11278d65460)
The report gives a number of examples of the concern Coalition forces had for civilian casualties:
QuoteReports of civilian deaths began to dominate military planning meetings in Baghdad in February and early March, according to a senior Western diplomat who was present but not authorized to speak on the record.
After a single coalition strike killed more than 100 civilians in Mosul's al-Jadidah neighborhood on March 17, the entire fight was put on hold for three weeks. Under intense international pressure, the coalition sent a team into the city to investigate.
Iraq's special forces units were instructed that they were no longer allowed to call in strikes on buildings. Instead, the forces were told to call in airstrikes on gardens and roads adjacent to IS group targets.
Not all of those measures were followed by everyone, but the effort to avoid excessive casualties is clear, and the result is clear: less than 10,000 killed as comparted to more than 39,000 killed in Gaza. Roughly 1-1 civilian to enemy military deaths, as opposed to roughly 4-1 in Gaza.
The evidence refutes your entire argument.
We don't know the real death toll in Gaza and we don't know combatants vs non combatant deaths. Filming dead fighters is a good way to get shot by Hamas. We don't know the real death toll of Mosul, but the Kurds put it at 40k even your article admits it is incomplete. In fact it goes so far as to say Your quoting is fairly selective:
QuoteIraq's special forces units were instructed that they were no longer allowed to call in strikes on buildings. Instead, the forces were told to call in airstrikes on gardens and roads adjacent to IS group targets.
A WhatsApp group shared by coalition advisers and Iraqi forces coordinating airstrikes previously named "killing daesh 24/7" was wryly renamed "scaring daesh 24/7."
"It was clear that the whole strategy in western Mosul had to be reconfigured," said the Western diplomat.
But on the ground, Iraqi special forces officers said after the operational pause, they returned to the fight just as before.
You skipped the important part.
Also this
QuoteThe Pentagon investigation into the March strike concluded that a U.S. bomb resulted in the deaths of 105 civilians but ultimately blamed secondary explosions from IS-laid bombs.
The 500-pound (227-kilogram) bomb, the investigation concluded, "appropriately balanced the military necessity of neutralizing (two IS) snipers." Witnesses and survivors told the AP that IS had not set any explosives in the house that was hit. The house was packed with families sheltering from the fighting.
And finally
Quote"It is simply irresponsible to focus criticism on inadvertent casualties caused by the Coalition's war to defeat ISIS," Col. Thomas Veale, a coalition spokesman, told the AP in response to questions about civilian deaths.
So, not that different than the Israelis. If there are fewer civilian casualties it would probably be because difference in geography (Palestinians have fewer places to flee too), and the widespread use of human shields.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 18, 2025, 08:04:15 PMWe don't know the real death toll in Gaza and we don't know combatants vs non combatant deaths. Filming dead fighters is a good way to get shot by Hamas. We don't know the real death toll of Mosul, but the Kurds put it at 40k even your article admits it is incomplete. In fact it goes so far as to say Your quoting is fairly selective:
QuoteIraq's special forces units were instructed that they were no longer allowed to call in strikes on buildings. Instead, the forces were told to call in airstrikes on gardens and roads adjacent to IS group targets.
A WhatsApp group shared by coalition advisers and Iraqi forces coordinating airstrikes previously named "killing daesh 24/7" was wryly renamed "scaring daesh 24/7."
"It was clear that the whole strategy in western Mosul had to be reconfigured," said the Western diplomat.
But on the ground, Iraqi special forces officers said after the operational pause, they returned to the fight just as before.
You skipped the important part.
Your poor reading comprehension caused you to miss the fact that I didn't "skip the most important part" and in act noted that "Not all of those measures were followed by everyone."
QuoteAlso this
(snip of irrelevant quote)
And finally
Quote"It is simply irresponsible to focus criticism on inadvertent casualties caused by the Coalition's war to defeat ISIS," Col. Thomas Veale, a coalition spokesman, told the AP in response to questions about civilian deaths.
So, not that different than the Israelis. If there are fewer civilian casualties it would probably be because difference in geography (Palestinians have fewer places to flee too), and the widespread use of human shields.
So not at all like the Israelis. The Israelis killed far more civilians per thousand inhabitants and far more per enemy killed. You are equating oranges to basketballs.
"Yes, not all the measures were followed by everyone" means quickly ignored by everyone. So yes, fewer people died in Mosul than Gaza and the the rate of civilian casualties compared to combatants are unequal if we ignore the fact we don't know how many died in either Gaza or Mosul and we don't know the civilian to combatant ratio for either. In Mosul we fought 7-13 thousand ISIS fighters. Compare this to over 35,000 suspected Hamas fighters an unknown number are still alive.
We dropped 500lb bombs on two snipers killing well over 100 people, stalled our offensive because of it, and then went back to business as usual. This is your example of of a much more moral battle.
QuoteOn only one occasion during the period under review does it appear that pro-government forces did change tactics in west Mosul: the US-led coalition temporarily halted air strikes in response to the 17 March bombing in Mosul al-Jadida and reportedly reconsidered tactics. Amnesty International has been informed that a decision was made to lighten payloads as a result of the attack, although the Pentagon statement released on 25 May 2017 made no mention of this.127 Otherwise, Amnesty International found no evidence that tactics had been changed, as pro-government forces continued their reliance on artillery, mortars and IRAMs, all of which are less precise than air strikes using precision-guided munitions and are likely to have killed and injured far more people.
So nobody seems to have actually changed tactics in response to the oopsie with the 500lb bomb.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/MDE1466102017ENGLISH.pdf
Amnesty describes the coalition attacks as Indiscriminate, Disproportioned and Unlawful.
If, as Col Veale claimed, it is irresponsible to focus civilian casualties in the war against ISIS why are similar civilian casualties in Palestine worthy of so much more responsible focus? Are Iraqi and Syrian civilians less valuable than Palestinian ones? Or, as I suspect, the hand that killed the Palestinians less favored than the one that kills Iraqi and Syrians?
Israel is democratic, sure, but at this point Bibi is doing his best to turn it fascist. I like Israel and support its existence, but I don't want it to become what it is fighting.
I regret unhiding Raz' comments to see him posting Putinist propaganda :(
If I posted something false, then tell me what it is.
Quote from: Jacob on April 23, 2025, 01:38:16 PMI regret unhiding Raz' comments to see him posting Putinist propaganda :(
A number of people have tried to engage with him. But those efforts seemed to further radicalize him.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 23, 2025, 08:59:14 PMQuote from: Jacob on April 23, 2025, 01:38:16 PMI regret unhiding Raz' comments to see him posting Putinist propaganda :(
A number of people have tried to engage with him. But those efforts seemed to further radicalize him.
Have I? I don't think I've changed my opinion on this matter at all. I will admit, making false statements about my opinions hasn't changed my opinion that much.
My point about Ukraine and the war against ISIS is that we are willing to overlook flaws when it is in our best interest. The statements about Ukraine seemed to have bothered people here, because they support Ukraine, not because they are factually false. The flaws of Ukraine are just irrelevant compared to the greater danger of Russia. Tolerating it was simply a sacrifice we were willing to make. Obviously bring it up made some people uncomfortable, a condition known as cognitive dissonance.
If Evangelical Christians were firing rockets at British Columbia, I think you would tolerate quite a few civilian casualties (particularly if they were Evangelical Christian American casualties), in the name of ending the rocket attacks on you. You basically went berserk during Covid when you felt the US wasn't doing enough to stop the spread of the illness. I kept having to remind you that not all Americans were at fault, but you felt they were personally in danger so the difference between Trump and the American people sort of fell away.
I also have problems with the military dictatorship of Poland in 1939. Cognitive dissonance for days and days.
I have problems with the leadership of both Palestine and Israel. I have endlessly and tirelessly explained my issue. This is an ethnic war going back over 100 years and it is protracted with no obvious solutions that do not involve atrocities. We shouldn't be involved until a productive way forward presents itself.
That's been my position for awhile.
Yet you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on with tiresome pointless rant after tiresome pointless rant for months and years and never offer anything of substance beyond pretty lame accusations of hypocrisy, the last refuge of somebody with no point.
Quote from: Valmy on April 23, 2025, 10:00:18 PMI also have problems with the military dictatorship of Poland in 1939. Cognitive dissonance for days and days.
I have problems with the leadership of both Palestine and Israel. I have endlessly and tirelessly explained my issue. This is an ethnic war going back over 100 years and it is protracted with no obvious solutions that do not involve atrocities. We shouldn't be involved until a productive way forward presents itself.
That's been my position for awhile.
Yet you go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on with tiresome pointless rant after tiresome pointless rant for months and years and never offer anything of substance beyond pretty lame accusations of hypocrisy, the last refuge of somebody with no point.
Perhaps his claim of hypocrisy is not directed at you.
Maybe don't have double standards?
I read an article, well over 20 years ago, during the 2nd intafada. It stayed with me.
QuoteISRAEL
Dark Thoughts and Quiet Desperation
Jews well understand the consequences of passively accepting doom.
April 07, 2002|DAVID D. PERLMUTTER | David D. Perlmutter is an associate professor of Mass Communication at Louisiana State University and a senior fellow at the Reilly Center for Media & Public Affairs. He is the author of "Visions of War."
BATON ROUGE, La. — When I was in college, an Armenian American acquaintance told me about his grandfather's obsession with the Turkish genocide against his people in the early part of the 20th century. To a comment of "nice weather today," the old man habitually would reply, "What does it matter since our people were slaughtered?"
I wonder if I will be like him 40 years from now. For the first time in my life, I see the shadows of Israel's destruction, if not by Arab armies all at once, then by suicide bombers, one Jewish child and mother at a time. I see an anti-Jewish European press sadistically attacking Israel's defensive measures. I see a clownishly hypocritical United Nations condemning Israel's bulldozing of a building while millions die in the Sudan or Tibet. I see my fellow academics musing and posturing in praise of demons who would cut their throats merely for being non-Muslims.
Small items, too, prick hard. I find myself getting irritated at a Jewish social organization I belong to for raising its dues: Why don't we send all the money to buy Israeli war bonds instead? I am furious when I read that some Jewish media mogul just gave $7 million to the Democratic National Committee. Where is the opposition of our good friends in the Democratic Party to President's Bush's persistent coddling of Yasser Arafat and the House of Saud?
I simmer, too, about how I see Jews fighting consistently for the good of all--from the civil rights movement to the salvation of Bosnian Muslims--but when the hangman comes for us, we find ourselves standing alone.
Mostly, I cannot stand watching the news--with its tired cliches of "cycles" of violence. Today, I see Arafat, sitting in his bunker, talking to "international activists" and proclaiming that the Israelis are just like Nazis. I wonder: Did Adolf Hitler allow his enemies press conferences? I daydream--if only! If in 1948, 1956, 1967 or 1973 Israel had acted just a bit like the Third Reich, then today Israelis would shop, eat pizza, marry and celebrate the holy days unmolested. And of course Jews, not sheiks, would have that Gulf oil. In contrast, if the Arabs had conquered Israel, does anyone think a single Jew would today be alive between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean?
This is what I'm reduced to: thinking like a Nazi when an Arab accuses Jews of acting like Nazis.
I'm unhappy as well--especially since I teach political communication--at Israel's unsophisticated, unplanned media policy. Since the Lebanon war, the seven squabbling Israeli ministries that claim to control press relations have been notorious for either ignoring or failing to understand the needs of modern journalism. One journalist noted to me: "The Palestinians will go to the news bureaus each day and pitch stories, and go out of their way to help arrange interviews and suggest places to shoot. From the Israeli government, all you get is statements, silence or red tape."
A more ominous reason that the evening news is so laden with images favorable to the Palestinians is that they are chosen and shot by Palestinians. Israeli reporters are banned from working in Palestinian areas; foreign journalists are subtly or violently pressured to either keep out or report with a pro-Palestinian bias. The result is that most television networks and news bureaus use Palestinian stringers for spot news coverage and also for translations. So, Arafat and his allies are allowed to make statements like, "We are the only occupied people in the world" without an accompanying laugh track.
But what to do? I have other dreams as well--apocalyptic ones. I think:
Israel has been building nuclear weapons for 30 years. The Jews understand what passive and powerless acceptance of doom has meant for them in the past, and they have ensured against it. Masada was not an example to follow--it hurt the Romans not a whit, but Sampson in Gaza? With an H-bomb? What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens?
For the first time in history, a people facing extermination while the world either cackles or looks away--unlike the Armenians, Tibetans, World War II European Jews or Rwandans--have the power to destroy the world. The ultimate justice?
These are my dark thoughts and quiet desperations. Who will dissolve them? Who will silence the madness? Will I even be allowed to become an old, bitter man? Will any of us have the chance to look back on these days beyond the mushroom clouds of tomorrow?
If Israel falls, it will probably take us with it. That seems like a good reason to be involved, don't you think?
Quote from: Razgovory on April 23, 2025, 09:36:54 PMMy point about Ukraine and the war against ISIS is that we are willing to overlook flaws when it is in our best interest. The statements about Ukraine seemed to have bothered people here, because they support Ukraine, not because they are factually false. The flaws of Ukraine are just irrelevant compared to the greater danger of Russia. Tolerating it was simply a sacrifice we were willing to make. Obviously bring it up made some people uncomfortable, a condition known as cognitive dissonance.
They bother me because they're repeating Putinist arguments used to justify the invasion of Ukraine, and which are currently being used by the Trump administration to justify selling Ukraine out to Russia.
The basic point that people tend to be more forgiving of people and causes they're sympathetic to is fair (and perhaps you should apply this lens to your own thinking some time). Spewing Putinist propaganda to score rhetorical points in your crusade to defend Israel on languish is what I find regrettable.
What makes me uncomfortable is not cognitive dissonance induced by your rhetorical brilliance. It's that someone I believe to fundamentally be a decent human being is embracing Russian propaganda talking points in an attempt to win an internet argument where no-one has changed their position one iota for several years.
Quote from: Jacob on April 23, 2025, 10:43:03 PMQuote from: Razgovory on April 23, 2025, 09:36:54 PMMy point about Ukraine and the war against ISIS is that we are willing to overlook flaws when it is in our best interest. The statements about Ukraine seemed to have bothered people here, because they support Ukraine, not because they are factually false. The flaws of Ukraine are just irrelevant compared to the greater danger of Russia. Tolerating it was simply a sacrifice we were willing to make. Obviously bring it up made some people uncomfortable, a condition known as cognitive dissonance.
They bother me because they're repeating Putinist arguments used to justify the invasion of Ukraine, and which are currently being used by the Trump administration to justify selling Ukraine out to Russia.
The basic point that that people tend to be more forgiving of people and causes they're sympathetic to is fair (and perhaps you should apply this lens to your own thinking some time). Spewing Putinist propaganda to score rhetorical points in your crusade to defend Israel on languish is what I find regrettable.
What makes me uncomfortable is not cognitive dissonance induced by your rhetorical brilliance. It's that someone I believe to fundamentally be a decent human being is embracing Russian propaganda talking points in an attempt to win an internet argument where no-one has changed their position one iota for several years.
The statements I made were not untrue, Ukraine is flawed we all know it, but we overlook it. I understand your point that now is not the time to bring them up, and I am sympathetic to that, but the same argument can be made about Israel. In fact that is my argument. Bringing up Ukraine's problems is Putinist propaganda in the same way that brining up Israel's problems is Hamas propaganda.
Ukraine's "flaws" are in no way a valid casus belli for russia, yet that's how you framed it. There's no cognitive dissonance here. It's kind of the most black and white, morally unambiguous conflict since ww2.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 24, 2025, 01:08:39 AMUkraine's "flaws" are in no way a valid casus belli for russia, yet that's how you framed it. There's no cognitive dissonance here. It's kind of the most black and white, morally unambiguous conflict since ww2.
I never said they were a valid casus belli for Russia, and never framed it that way. I did not bring it up at all in the context of Russia's reaction to it, but rather Western reaction to it. I had thought that Hamas slaughtering 1200 people was black and white and morally ambiguous, but turns out I was mistaken. Many people did not think WW2 morally ambiguous at the time...
Its funny how nobody ever talks about how Poland in the 30s was a pretty authoritarian military dictatorship. Almost like its besides the point or something.
And Raz, everyone here agrees the Hamas attacks were awful. The issue is your belief this therefore gives Israel carte blanche to do whatever they want for years after.
Quote from: Josquius on April 24, 2025, 07:14:33 AMAnd Raz, everyone here agrees the Hamas attacks were awful.
Everyone? No.
Quote from: Josquius on April 24, 2025, 07:14:33 AMIts funny how nobody ever talks about how Poland in the 30s was a pretty authoritarian military dictatorship. Almost like its besides the point or something.
And Raz, everyone here agrees the Hamas attacks were awful. The issue is your belief this therefore gives Israel carte blanche to do whatever they want for years after.
You were the one saying it's not a black and white situation, that Hamas are not cartoon villains. You should really read up on history as well, plenty of people opposed fighting in WW2 because they didn't see a major difference between the imperial powers of Britain and France, and Germany.
The thing is, we have changed our positions on this since we started over 25 years ago. The whole left has shifted quite a bit in the last two decades. It's not just this issue, though this is a good example of it, but on a whole bunch of issues, primarily issues of identity. And that seems to the be primary driver here, identity politics.
Alright, I'm off this thread for real now lol. This has no relevance to reality anymore. :D
Quote from: Zoupa on April 24, 2025, 12:24:36 PMAlright, I'm off this thread for real now lol. This has no relevance to reality anymore. :D
I accept your concession :)
I move that we consign this thread to the fake backroom we once had.
Quote from: crazy canuck on April 24, 2025, 12:29:03 PMI move that we consign this thread to the fake backroom we once had.
Seconded
Then it'll just move into the open forum :(
Quote from: HVC on April 24, 2025, 02:16:08 PMThen it'll just move into the open forum :(
I was thinking that the people who want to carry on the discussion can do it there. And we no longer have it here.
I can't even see the back room.
It would be another place
Le done.