Israel-Palestine flame thread

[Jacob]

My point about Ukraine and the war against ISIS is that we are willing to overlook flaws when it is in our best interest.  The statements about Ukraine seemed to have bothered people here, because they support Ukraine, not because they are factually false.  The flaws of Ukraine are just irrelevant compared to the greater danger of Russia.  Tolerating it was simply a sacrifice we were willing to make.  Obviously bring it up made some people uncomfortable, a condition known as cognitive dissonance.

They bother me because they're repeating Putinist arguments used to justify the invasion of Ukraine, and which are currently being used by the Trump administration to justify selling Ukraine out to Russia.

The basic point that people tend to be more forgiving of people and causes they're sympathetic to is fair (and perhaps you should apply this lens to your own thinking some time). Spewing Putinist propaganda to score rhetorical points in your crusade to defend Israel on languish is what I find regrettable.

What makes me uncomfortable is not cognitive dissonance induced by your rhetorical brilliance. It's that someone I believe to fundamentally be a decent human being is embracing Russian propaganda talking points in an attempt to win an internet argument where no-one has changed their position one iota for several years.

[Razgovory]

My point about Ukraine and the war against ISIS is that we are willing to overlook flaws when it is in our best interest.  The statements about Ukraine seemed to have bothered people here, because they support Ukraine, not because they are factually false.  The flaws of Ukraine are just irrelevant compared to the greater danger of Russia.  Tolerating it was simply a sacrifice we were willing to make.  Obviously bring it up made some people uncomfortable, a condition known as cognitive dissonance.

They bother me because they're repeating Putinist arguments used to justify the invasion of Ukraine, and which are currently being used by the Trump administration to justify selling Ukraine out to Russia.

The basic point that that people tend to be more forgiving of people and causes they're sympathetic to is fair (and perhaps you should apply this lens to your own thinking some time). Spewing Putinist propaganda to score rhetorical points in your crusade to defend Israel on languish is what I find regrettable.

What makes me uncomfortable is not cognitive dissonance induced by your rhetorical brilliance. It's that someone I believe to fundamentally be a decent human being is embracing Russian propaganda talking points in an attempt to win an internet argument where no-one has changed their position one iota for several years.

The statements I made were not untrue, Ukraine is flawed we all know it, but we overlook it.  I understand your point that now is not the time to bring them up, and I am sympathetic to that, but the same argument can be made about Israel.  In fact that is my argument.  Bringing up Ukraine's problems is Putinist propaganda in the same way that brining up Israel's problems is Hamas propaganda.

[Zoupa]

Ukraine's "flaws" are in no way a valid casus belli for russia, yet that's how you framed it. There's no cognitive dissonance here. It's kind of the most black and white, morally unambiguous conflict since ww2.

[Razgovory]

Ukraine's "flaws" are in no way a valid casus belli for russia, yet that's how you framed it. There's no cognitive dissonance here. It's kind of the most black and white, morally unambiguous conflict since ww2.

I never said they were a valid casus belli for Russia, and never framed it that way.  I did not bring it up at all in the context of Russia's reaction to it, but rather Western reaction to it.  I had thought that Hamas slaughtering 1200 people was black and white and morally ambiguous, but turns out I was mistaken.  Many people did not think WW2 morally ambiguous at the time...

[Josquius]

Its funny how nobody ever talks about how Poland in the 30s was a pretty authoritarian military dictatorship. Almost like its besides the point or something.

And Raz, everyone here agrees the Hamas attacks were awful. The issue is your belief this therefore gives Israel carte blanche to do whatever they want for years after.

[Grey Fox]

And Raz, everyone here agrees the Hamas attacks were awful.

Everyone? No.

[Josquius]

And Raz, everyone here agrees the Hamas attacks were awful.

Everyone? No.

Who doesn't?

[Razgovory]

Its funny how nobody ever talks about how Poland in the 30s was a pretty authoritarian military dictatorship. Almost like its besides the point or something.

And Raz, everyone here agrees the Hamas attacks were awful. The issue is your belief this therefore gives Israel carte blanche to do whatever they want for years after.

You were the one saying it's not a black and white situation, that Hamas are not cartoon villains.  You should really read up on history as well, plenty of people opposed fighting in WW2 because they didn't see a major difference between the imperial powers of Britain and France, and Germany.

The thing is, we have changed our positions on this since we started over 25 years ago.  The whole left has shifted quite a bit in the last two decades.  It's not just this issue, though this is a good example of it, but on a whole bunch of issues, primarily issues of identity.  And that seems to the be primary driver here, identity politics.

[Zoupa]

Alright, I'm off this thread for real now lol. This has no relevance to reality anymore. 

[Razgovory]

Alright, I'm off this thread for real now lol. This has no relevance to reality anymore. 

I accept your concession

[crazy canuck]

I move that we consign this thread to the fake backroom we once had.

[grumbler]

I move that we consign this thread to the fake backroom we once had.

Seconded

[HVC]

Then it'll just move into the open forum

[crazy canuck]

Then it'll just move into the open forum

I was thinking that the people who want to carry on the discussion can do it there. And we no longer have it here.

[Razgovory]

I can't even see the back room.