Israel-Palestine flame thread

[crazy canuck]

You know damn well that if the policy of Israel was to kill all the civilians of Gaza they would have done so a long time ago.  Nobody has yet shown an alternative as to what to do with Gaza beyond just withdrawal.  Nobody has shown how you can fight in the city without the civilian casualties.

This is a poor take. The problem with Israel in this conflict is they are not holding their Soldiers or officers accountable to the law of armed conflict or Article three of the Geneva Convention. It would be hyperbolic to say they are actively being encouraged to break these rules and seek revenge, but I don't think it would be a stretch to think it after seeing everything. And I understand why some of the foot Soldiers want to lash out and now have the power to do so, but it is wrong.  And don't get me wrong, Hamas is evil and does horrific things, but very often it is the young and innocent that are suffering, which is not ok and is completely avoidable.

If you dispute this I am more than happy to send you videos of children, women, and the elderly being murdered for just existing until you are sick of watching it, there are thousands and thousands of videos.  We don't operate that way, and there should be consequences (The current administration is currently working to loosen these restrictions on commanders, which the majority of us believe is a mistake for a wide variety of reasons).

I wasn't talking about soldiers going off the reservation and massacring civilians.  Yes, those should be punished, but most of the deaths are not from that.  Sadly, we do operate that way, our history is full of massacres that went unpunished.  If the US army was fighting an enemy who used civilians as cover, fought from protected structures, etc we would fight pretty much the same way.

You would be so wrong, but you're always so confident.

Also it's no different than the mid-grade officers firing/allowing the targeting of "suspected" positions with no oversight.  Trash.

What, we didn't do that in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam?  How do we deal with an enemy that surrounds himself with civilians who won't or can't evacuate and is currently firing on US civilian targets?  Please, I'd like to know.

Well, to start it is no longer WW2, Korea, or Vietnam and hasn't been for 52 years plus.

o Using human shields is a war crime and not behind the war-crimes that Israel is perpetrating.
o The enemy violating LOAC doesn't absolve us of our obligations and we are still required to, shocking as this may be if you are Russian, Israeli, or Raz, not commit war-crimes.
o We keep in mind necessity and proportionality.  If it is a private on the ground his life needs to be in imminent danger. If it is an airstrike/drone strike there are JAGs in the room clearing everything with authority still going through the commanding officer, including culpability.

Regardless, it is our ROE/Doctrine to minimize and take all feasible precautions to limit civilian casualties as much as possible. While some, such as SECDEF, believe we need to be able to have more flexibility to accomplish our missions and limit friendly casualties, our efforts to be humane give us credibility and the moral high-ground when compared to the Hamas types.

It also makes sleeping at night a little easier.

I am very thankful there are people like you in the world.

[Zoupa]

Yes, I don't the Razes of the world should be anywhere near ROE drafting/approval etc.

Anyways, I've got my answer Raz. I think I'm done on this subject.

[Razgovory]

Guess I should have made you answer my questions before I answered yours.  Oh well, I have a feeling I know how you would answer.
Hamas kills 1200 people, . "So how many non-Hamas Palestinians are you cool with killing?"


Trump gets elected "You made your bed"

https://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,11775.msg1470216.html#msg1470216

Fuck man, you were demanding I use violence because of Trump.  You don't expect shit from Palestinians when they are dragging corpses through the streets and watching kids kick the bodies.  Goddamn double standards and bigotry of low expectations.

[Admiral Yi]

Unlike some I don't think this is a simple black and white issue.

What complications would you like to introduce?

[Josquius]

Really?
So some guy in a western country shoots up a mosque as he really hates muslims then that's genocide?
Colour me sceptical.

No. 

So why does October 7th qualify?
Is it the number of attackers involved? That there was an elected government involved? The number of dead crossed a certain number (what?)?

I note that at least Raz acknowledges that the UN convention does not conform to his worldview.  You want to change the definition to conform to yours.

What? This makes no sense. I don't acknowledge the UN convention differs from my view because it doesn't.
You're the one  innovating on it by claiming October 7th was not just conducted with genocidal intent but actually crossed the threshold to be genocide.

Unlike some I don't think this is a simple black and white issue.

What complications would you like to introduce?

In Gaza we don't have full evidence and Israel hasn't finished whatever it is they're doing yet.
It certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing and they have form in this from the West Bank. It warrants investigation. But its not a clear yes they are or no they aren't.

[Admiral Yi]

In Gaza we don't have full evidence and Israel hasn't finished whatever it is they're doing yet.
It certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing and they have form in this from the West Bank. It warrants investigation. But its not a clear yes they are or no they aren't.

What evidence have you examined to conclude it certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing?

[Josquius]

In Gaza we don't have full evidence and Israel hasn't finished whatever it is they're doing yet.
It certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing and they have form in this from the West Bank. It warrants investigation. But its not a clear yes they are or no they aren't.

What evidence have you examined to conclude it certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing?

I'm not playing this game.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyr154314vo
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/04/15/how-israel-is-seizing-large-parts-of-the-gaza-strip-and-reshaping-the-palestinian-territory_6740230_4.html

[The Minsky Moment]

What evidence have you examined to conclude it certainly looks like they're conducting ethnic cleansing?

- Destroying the territory to render it uninhabitable
- Statements by high cabinet officials that the goal is to remove the entire population.\
- Trump proposing the removal of the entire population in front of Bibi and Bibi not denying or rejecting

Generally it is preferable to try to stop ethnic cleansing before it happens rather than wait it see when and if it happens.

IMO there is more than enough smoke now to send out the firefighters.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

As far as I know, and these doctrines are fairly secret, the US plan for being hit with rockets from a foreign power is to turn the entire enemy country into radioactive slag.

Unless those "rockets" are ICBMs or SLBMs tipped with nuclear warheads, it most certainly is not.  Equating battlefield artillery rockets like Hamas uses to those is pretty disingenuous.

[Admiral Yi]

- Destroying the territory to render it uninhabitable
- Statements by high cabinet officials that the goal is to remove the entire population.\
- Trump proposing the removal of the entire population in front of Bibi and Bibi not denying or rejecting

The US and UK rendered much of Germany and Japan uninhabitable to the same degree yet those countries remain uncleansed of ethnic Germans and Japanese.

If you accept the Britania definition of ethnic cleansing that I posted, a claim that Israel is conducting ethnic cleansing is a prediction of the future: at some point part or all of Gaza will be Arabfrei and homogeneously settled by Jews.

Most or all of the people who describe the current conduct of Israel as genocide or ethnic cleansing don't do so from a analytic point of view but rather an emotive point of view.  They need an emotionally loaded term to communicate the strong emotions they are feeling.  I empathize with that need.  People need to vent.  And the conundrum is if those people were to concede they are not predicting genocide or ethnic cleansing per se but a figurative genocide, it would dilute the usefullness of the term as a venting mechanism.

[Valmy]

The US and UK rendered much of Germany and Japan uninhabitable to the same degree yet those countries remain uncleansed of ethnic Germans and Japanese.

Really? Are we going here?

I mean besides the fact the Germans were ethnically cleansed in one of the largest such events in world history after the war. Not sure that is a good counter-example.

[The Minsky Moment]

The US and UK rendered much of Germany and Japan uninhabitable to the same degree yet those countries remain uncleansed of ethnic Germans and Japanese.

I believe only the cities were seriously damaged in WWII, the entire countries were not laid to waste.  Gaza is in effect a city-state so to make the comparison one would have to imagine the entire land area of Germany reduced to a Dresden-style state.

In any event, after flirting with the Morgenthau plan concept, the US opted for a policy of reconstruction.  The Soviets on the other hand did pursue and carry out a program of ethnic cleansing in many areas under their control, so the risk was very much there.

Most or all of the people who describe the current conduct of Israel as genocide or ethnic cleansing don't do so from a analytic point of view but rather an emotive point of view.  They need an emotionally loaded term to communicate the strong emotions they are feeling. 

That's true, but it is also true that there are senior figures within the Israeli government that have raised proposals to remove the existing population.  Emotion or no, those statements should be taken seriously.

[Admiral Yi]

Really? Are we going here?

I mean besides the fact the Germans were ethnically cleansed in one of the largest such events in world history after the war. Not sure that is a good counter-example.

It's a wonderful counter example.  The Germans didn't flee from bombing toward the advancing Soviet army.  They fled from the Soviets toward the bombing.  The area they vacated was the most habitable part of Germany at the time.

[Admiral Yi]

That's true, but it is also true that there are senior figures within the Israeli government that have raised proposals to remove the existing population.  Emotion or no, those statements should be taken seriously.

Anyone who wants to chant that at a protest has my full blessing.

[Razgovory]

As far as I know, and these doctrines are fairly secret, the US plan for being hit with rockets from a foreign power is to turn the entire enemy country into radioactive slag.

Unless those "rockets" are ICBMs or SLBMs tipped with nuclear warheads, it most certainly is not.  Equating battlefield artillery rockets like Hamas uses to those is pretty disingenuous.

The only rockets coming into the US are likely to be ICBMs and I have a feeling we won't wait till they explode to see if they have nukes on them before we respond.  Anyway my point stands, our current military doctrine involves killing millions of civilians if sufficiently provoked.