Israel-Palestine flame thread

[Admiral Yi]

If you don't think I answered you then I've no idea what you're fishing for.

"Yes" or "no."

[grumbler]

Objecting to those who call Israeli actions genocide is fair enough. That term has a very high bar and I wouldn't agree Israel is meeting it.

Ethnic cleansing though... Come on. It obviously is that.

Grumbler, here is a good example of the problem.  In the case of the Rwandan leader convicted of genocide no mention was made of ethnic cleansing.  The reason is quite simple, it is not a term used in international law, but commentators have suggested another reason is that if it was defined, it would have to be something more than genocide since it would make no sense to create a lesser included offence.

But people like Raz and Jos simply don't understand the meaning of the words they are using.

The term in international law is "mass forcible transfers."

Article 49 - Deportations, transfers, evacuations
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.

The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.

The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

[https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-49]IHL Database at the IRC[/url]

The IRDC commentary on this acknowledges that it is sometimes referred to as "ethnic cleansing."

Ethnic cleansing
"Ethnic cleansing" aims to change the demographic composition of a territory. In addition to displacement of the civilian population of a territory, this can be achieved through other acts which are prohibited in and of themselves such as attacks against civilians (see Rule 1), murder (see Rule 89) and rape and other forms of sexual violence (see Rule 93). These acts are prohibited regardless of the nature of the conflict and have been widely condemned.

IHL Database

[crazy canuck]

Objecting to those who call Israeli actions genocide is fair enough. That term has a very high bar and I wouldn't agree Israel is meeting it.

Ethnic cleansing though... Come on. It obviously is that.

Grumbler, here is a good example of the problem.  In the case of the Rwandan leader convicted of genocide no mention was made of ethnic cleansing.  The reason is quite simple, it is not a term used in international law, but commentators have suggested another reason is that if it was defined, it would have to be something more than genocide since it would make no sense to create a lesser included offence.

But people like Raz and Jos simply don't understand the meaning of the words they are using.

The term in international law is "mass forcible transfers."

Article 49 - Deportations, transfers, evacuations
Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.

The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.

The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

[https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/gciv-1949/article-49]IHL Database at the IRC[/url]

The IRDC commentary on this acknowledges that it is sometimes referred to as "ethnic cleansing."

Ethnic cleansing
"Ethnic cleansing" aims to change the demographic composition of a territory. In addition to displacement of the civilian population of a territory, this can be achieved through other acts which are prohibited in and of themselves such as attacks against civilians (see Rule 1), murder (see Rule 89) and rape and other forms of sexual violence (see Rule 93). These acts are prohibited regardless of the nature of the conflict and have been widely condemned.

IHL Database

Yes, exactly it is the other acts that have been defined in international law that are applied, leading to the conclusion that without being separately defined it would simply be a lesser but included offence.

That is the reason some have called for something other than a lesser included offence.

All of which is to say, have a debate about whether ethnic cleaning has occurred in Gaza goes nowhere for lack of an agreed definition.  Especially when there is an internationally accepted definition of genocide.

[Razgovory]

Cause I read up on the Settler Colonial theory.  In fact, I posted some essay's by the theorists here.  Colonialism is structure not an event.  Simply being here is part of the structure.  It's not an act, it's part of being.  You, me, Grumbler, Viper, Zoupa, Yi, are all settlers just as the guys who drove off the Indians.  We are forever tainted so long as the land is not in the hands of indigenous people.  Anything other than giving back the land is simply a hypocritical efforts to make ourselves feel less guilty.

https://clas.osu.edu/sites/clas.osu.edu/files/Tuck%20and%20Yang%202012%20Decolonization%20is%20not%20a%20metaphor.pdf

"Decolonization is not a metaphor" was something of a slogan among the antizionists the day after Oct 7th.  Naturally I wondered what the fuck they were talking about.  So I read up on it.

I'm just gonna move in to your house then. Go somewhere else, not my problem.

I don't have a house, and besides you are already occupying some else's land.

[Razgovory]

Are Palestinian groups guilty of genocide?  They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.

[crazy canuck]

Are Palestinian groups guilty of genocide?  They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.

Hamas, clearly yes.


All the Palestinians who have advocated for a two state solution? Clearly not.

[Josquius]

Attempted genocide sure.
But surely there's some bar where you have to have a measure of success? Or else there's so many serial killers could qualify.

If you don't think I answered you then I've no idea what you're fishing for.

"Yes" or "no."

Unlike some I don't think this is a simple black and white issue.

[crazy canuck]

Attempted genocide sure.
But surely there's some bar where you have to have a measure of success? Or else there's so many serial killers could qualify.

If you don't think I answered you then I've no idea what you're fishing for.

"Yes" or "no."

Unlike some I don't think this is a simple black and white issue.

Again, I think you misunderstand the definition of genocide.

The act of killing a bunch of Jewish teenagers at an outdoor concert and taking others hostage is an act which falls under the definition.

The intent of Hamas also falls within the definition.

I don't know what you think genocide is, but it's not how the United Nations convention defines it.

[Razgovory]

Are Palestinian groups guilty of genocide?  They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.

Hamas, clearly yes.


All the Palestinians who have advocated for a two state solution? Clearly not.

Before the PLO adopted the two state solution, they were pretty keen on removing the Jews from area.  So they also committed genocide.  All those times that Yasser Arafat spoke to the UN they should have just nabbed him and charged him with Genocide.  Also Hezbollah.  And Islamic Jihad. And Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.  Support for a two state solution has varied quite a bit among the public.  So a large number, perhaps a majority have, at times, been genocidal.  Students for Justice in Palestine rejecting a two state solution and happily inflicting mental harm, also genocide.  Or at the very least cheerleading for genocide.  Same for those students Trump is trying to deport.  Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, who wanted to kill, in whole or in part, Afghanis.  Specifically the part that was actively shooting at them.  Genocide. and ad absurdum. 

This is why I simply ignored this definition of genocide.  It is stupid.

[Zoupa]

Cause I read up on the Settler Colonial theory.  In fact, I posted some essay's by the theorists here.  Colonialism is structure not an event.  Simply being here is part of the structure.  It's not an act, it's part of being.  You, me, Grumbler, Viper, Zoupa, Yi, are all settlers just as the guys who drove off the Indians.  We are forever tainted so long as the land is not in the hands of indigenous people.  Anything other than giving back the land is simply a hypocritical efforts to make ourselves feel less guilty.

https://clas.osu.edu/sites/clas.osu.edu/files/Tuck%20and%20Yang%202012%20Decolonization%20is%20not%20a%20metaphor.pdf

"Decolonization is not a metaphor" was something of a slogan among the antizionists the day after Oct 7th.  Naturally I wondered what the fuck they were talking about.  So I read up on it.

I'm just gonna move in to your house then. Go somewhere else, not my problem.

I don't have a house, and besides you already occupying some else's land.

Yes, but I want your stuff. According to you, this moral relativism applies in every situation. It's not big deal, it's been happening forever right. So I'll send you my address and just ship everything you own to me. Thnx.

[Razgovory]

Why should you get to enjoy stolen land but the Israelis don't?  You are just a much an colonial oppressor as they are.

[Razgovory]

If only the Israelis did some land acknowledgments, decolonized their school curriculum, gifted back a few acres of brown lands as part of a "land back" program now and again the whole thing would be fine.

[crazy canuck]

Are Palestinian groups guilty of genocide?  They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.

Hamas, clearly yes.


All the Palestinians who have advocated for a two state solution? Clearly not.

Before the PLO adopted the two state solution, they were pretty keen on removing the Jews from area.  So they also committed genocide.  All those times that Yasser Arafat spoke to the UN they should have just nabbed him and charged him with Genocide.  Also Hezbollah.  And Islamic Jihad. And Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.  Support for a two state solution has varied quite a bit among the public.  So a large number, perhaps a majority have, at times, been genocidal.  Students for Justice in Palestine rejecting a two state solution and happily inflicting mental harm, also genocide.  Or at the very least cheerleading for genocide.  Same for those students Trump is trying to deport.  Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, who wanted to kill, in whole or in part, Afghanis.  Specifically the part that was actively shooting at them.  Genocide. and ad absurdum. 

This is why I simply ignored this definition of genocide.  It is stupid.

Well, at least you admit to ignoring a convention, adopted by all countries except the most odious.

This is why I hesitate to enter into any discussion with you about the topic and why I think it's wise for others not to engage with you on this topic.

[The Minsky Moment]

So an army that willfully disregards the rules of war should an advantage over ones who do no?

Unfortunately that is true.
But Israel has a few advantages of its own.

An army of armed licensed medical personal driving combat ambulances is an unstoppable military force? 

No that does not follow.

[Razgovory]

Are Palestinian groups guilty of genocide?  They have certainly tried to destroy the Israelis in whole or in part, caused serious bodily or mental harm to Israelis.

Hamas, clearly yes.


All the Palestinians who have advocated for a two state solution? Clearly not.

Before the PLO adopted the two state solution, they were pretty keen on removing the Jews from area.  So they also committed genocide.  All those times that Yasser Arafat spoke to the UN they should have just nabbed him and charged him with Genocide.  Also Hezbollah.  And Islamic Jihad. And Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.  Support for a two state solution has varied quite a bit among the public.  So a large number, perhaps a majority have, at times, been genocidal.  Students for Justice in Palestine rejecting a two state solution and happily inflicting mental harm, also genocide.  Or at the very least cheerleading for genocide.  Same for those students Trump is trying to deport.  Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan, who wanted to kill, in whole or in part, Afghanis.  Specifically the part that was actively shooting at them.  Genocide. and ad absurdum. 

This is why I simply ignored this definition of genocide.  It is stupid.

Well, at least you admit to ignoring a convention, adopted by all countries except the most odious.

This is why I hesitate to enter into any discussion with you about the topic and why I think it's wise for others not to engage with you on this topic.

Because it doesn't make any sense!  Yes I am ignoring the convention and anyone that anyone who has not denounced all the major Palestinian groups as having committed genocide is implicitly ignoring it as well.