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Source article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation_hypothesis)

I found this to be fascinating.  Basically, the idea is that if a technologically advanced civilization was able to create a simulation of an entire reality (i.e. like in the Matrix), then that simulation is likely to eventually be able to create one or more subordinate full-reality simulations, which themselves are likely to create child full-reality simulations, etc. at an exponential growth rate.  Therefore, any self-aware being is far, far more likely to be in fact a simulated construct than an intelligent biological organism.  :bowler:

So, I find a simple civilisation on another planet and wish to exploit them. Why should I bother to do so when A) killing them all B) building robots to replace their labour would be easier?

 :huh: This doesn't really have anything to do with alien civilizations at all.  It's more like this:

Future Spellus decides to construct an artificial reality simulation set during the Byzantine Empire he can observe for fun, or to try to test some hypothesis, or whatever.  Future Spellus doesn't set any limits on the sim and just lets it run on infinitely, which it does.  The Simulated Byzantines eventually evolve to a technological level far in advance of that of present-day earth, and begin setting up their own reality simulations, which are basically sub-simulations since, unbeknownst to them, the Simulated Byzantines themselves are sims.  Eventually, some or all of these sub-simulations set up their own sub-simulations, and the process continues with the occurrence of simulated realities growing exponentially.

Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 10:48:12 AM
:huh: This doesn't really have anything to do with alien civilizations at all.  It's more like this:

Future Spellus decides to construct an artificial reality simulation set during the Byzantine Empire he can observe for fun, or to try to test some hypothesis, or whatever.  Future Spellus doesn't set any limits on the sim and just lets it run on infinitely, which it does.  The Simulated Byzantines eventually evolve to a technological level far in advance of that of present-day earth, and begin setting up their own reality simulations, which are basically sub-simulations since, unbeknownst to them, the Simulated Byzantines themselves are sims.  Eventually, some or all of these sub-simulations set up their own sub-simulations, and the process continues with the occurrence of simulated realities growing exponentially.

This sounds like that Bjork video where they keep having plays within plays.

Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 10:48:12 AM
:huh: This doesn't really have anything to do with alien civilizations at all.  It's more like this:

Future Spellus decides to construct an artificial reality simulation set during the Byzantine Empire he can observe for fun, or to try to test some hypothesis, or whatever.  Future Spellus doesn't set any limits on the sim and just lets it run on infinitely, which it does.  The Simulated Byzantines eventually evolve to a technological level far in advance of that of present-day earth, and begin setting up their own reality simulations, which are basically sub-simulations since, unbeknownst to them, the Simulated Byzantines themselves are sims.  Eventually, some or all of these sub-simulations set up their own sub-simulations, and the process continues with the occurrence of simulated realities growing exponentially.

So what you are getting at is not The Matrix, but rather The Sims?

Actually yeah, I guess The Sims is a much better analogy.

Where's the "Who Gives A Fuck" answer?

If you can create a simulated reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from reality it is, well, real.

This also reminds me of that quote from Alpha Centauri:

QuoteWe are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

-Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7 (Subject termination advised)

d) The Matrix sucked.

Quote from: Barrister on July 20, 2009, 10:56:21 AM
Where's the "Who Gives A Fuck" answer?

If you can create a simulated reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from reality it is, well, real.

But would that make Spellus a god? And if so should you worship him?

Quote from: Barrister on July 20, 2009, 10:56:21 AM
Where's the "Who Gives A Fuck" answer?

If you can create a simulated reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from reality it is, well, real.

I think that is only partly correct.  In a simulated reality, I suppose an external operator could simply change some of the rules of the simulation at a whim... he could, for example, reverse gravity or make time flow in reverse.  In a 'real' reality, I would think that the laws of physics, etc. are basically unchanging.

Perhaps the external operator is who some people refer to as 'God'.  I guess in a sense Marti is the God of his session of The Sims.  :)

Quote from: Valmy on July 20, 2009, 10:57:36 AM
This also reminds me of that quote from Alpha Centauri:

QuoteWe are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

-Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7 (Subject termination advised)

That is basically an updated quote from Rene Descartes--which you might have known, but I'm just pointing it out.

The problem with reality is that it could just be made up.

At some point, there has to be some hardware running the simulation.  Eventually, you're going to run out of processing power, even if the original civilization is willing to pour all their resources into such a simulation, which they of course would not be.

Thus, the correct answer is that this is a bunch of nonsense dreamed up by a bunch of philosophy majors who were watching the Matrix after they got off their shifts at Starbucks.  Or maybe Reboot.  Whatever.  The point is that they're stupid, and should weep at their own goofiness.

Heh, and what if, by some Kirk quark quirk of the space time continuum the sub sub sub.... sim was programming the first programmer  :P

Actually, if the civilization is powerful enough to create a simulation of everything and run it, I doubt that hardware would be a limitation.  The limitation is somehow simulating everything...THAT is what makes it goofy.

Quote from: PDH on July 20, 2009, 11:10:26 AM
Actually, if the civilization is powerful enough to create a simulation of everything and run it, I doubt that hardware would be a limitation.  The limitation is somehow simulating everything...THAT is what makes it goofy.

It might be feasible, but once you start nesting them, your requirements start increasing by orders of magnitude.  Of course, if you cheat and treat most objects as solid, then you can save yourself some processing power, but that doesn't describe the world we live in.

Besides, we can be pretty wasteful with processing power, but not on that scale.

Interesting. I've seen a similar theory running around about dropping matter into a black hole in a near-laboratory environment creating microuniverses, with the net result that we end up with nested sub-universes and microorganisms, rather than nested simulations and simulacra.

:zzz

I've been talking about this for years.


Are You Living In A Computer Simulation?  http://www.simulation-argument.com/classic.html (http://www.simulation-argument.com/classic.html)

Quote from: Siege on July 20, 2009, 12:19:48 PM
I've been talking about this for years.


Are You Living In A Computer Simulation?  http://www.simulation-argument.com/classic.html (http://www.simulation-argument.com/classic.html)

And you're wrong to do so.  You just use that as an excuse to escape the moral responsibility for your crimes.

Quote from: Barrister on July 20, 2009, 10:56:21 AM
Where's the "Who Gives A Fuck" answer?

If you can create a simulated reality that is absolutely indistinguishable from reality it is, well, real.

Of course. It changes nothing.

Also, it doesn't have to be indistinguishable from reality, because the sims don't have that reference point, since they/we have always lived in a similation.

Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 12:22:10 PM

Quote from: Siege on July 20, 2009, 12:19:48 PM
I've been talking about this for years.


Are You Living In A Computer Simulation?  http://www.simulation-argument.com/classic.html (http://www.simulation-argument.com/classic.html)

And you're wrong to do so.  You just use that as an excuse to escape the moral responsibility for your crimes.

What crimes?

My councious is completely clean.
My targets have all been terrorists, terrorists in the making, or terrorist factories.
I have no moral conflict.

Its funny how you always think that you can read my subcouncious.

Quote from: Siege on July 20, 2009, 12:27:50 PM

Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 12:22:10 PM

Quote from: Siege on July 20, 2009, 12:19:48 PM
I've been talking about this for years.


Are You Living In A Computer Simulation?  http://www.simulation-argument.com/classic.html (http://www.simulation-argument.com/classic.html)

And you're wrong to do so.  You just use that as an excuse to escape the moral responsibility for your crimes.

What crimes?

My councious is completely clean.
My targets have all been terrorists, terrorists in the making, or terrorist factories.
I have no moral conflict.

Its funny how you always think that you can read my subcouncious.

Your crimes are rape and murder.

Being a religious nutjob isn't a crime, although it should be.

LOL is Seige a: kill switch!

Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 12:29:17 PM
Your crimes are rape and murder.

Being a religious nutjob isn't a crime, although it should be.

Perhaps in his religious zealotry he recognizes that this simulation has an operator, something that you've failed to do? :zen:

Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 12:30:40 PM

Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 12:29:17 PM
Your crimes are rape and murder.

Being a religious nutjob isn't a crime, although it should be.

Perhaps in his religious zealotry he recognizes that this simulation has an operator, something that you've failed to do? :zen:

There is no simulation.

Moreover, why would an operator of a simulation be worthy of worship in any event?

Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 12:36:02 PM
There is no simulation.

(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffusionanomaly.net%2Fmatrixiamspoonbender.jpg&hash=b4ff78f5d0d4fb51199f0efe10eafa400b793ed2)

Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 12:36:02 PMMoreover, why would an operator of a simulation be worthy of worship in any event?

Who says he would be?  Maybe he never asked to be worshipped, but some people somehow intuited his existence and do it anyway, and he finds it amusing/flattering so he does nothing to intervene.

Thank you for proving my point:  Homos who have watched the Matrix too many times.

Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 12:39:05 PM

Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 12:36:02 PMMoreover, why would an operator of a simulation be worthy of worship in any event?

Who says he would be?  Maybe he never asked to be worshipped, but some people somehow intuited his existence and do it anyway, and he finds it amusing/flattering so he does nothing to intervene.

It is impossible to intuit anything in a simulation.

Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 12:39:15 PM
Thank you for proving my point:  Homos who have watched the Matrix too many times.

Speaking of which, imagine if Marti was the operator of a simulation we all lived in.  The following things about reality would be different:

a) every great figure throughout history would be gay;
b) everyone would not only tolerate gays but gays would be in charge of everything;
c) non-gays would do everything they could to convince themselves that they are, in fact, gay;
d) women would be impregnated by rainbows since men would be too busy being gay together;
e) a few people with psychic powers would sense this is all 'wrong' somehow;
f) the Gaythlic Church, with its Holy See in Warsaw, would have hit squads devoted to tracking down and destroying these deviants.

The problem is God would have created Adam and Steve instead of Adam and Eve and humanity would die out in one generation.

Quote from: Valmy on July 20, 2009, 12:47:30 PM
The problem is God would have created Adam and Steve instead of Adam and Eve and humanity would die out in one generation.

You're forgetting that rainbows impregnate women in the Martiverse. :contract:

You can not a build a computer within a universe to simulate an equally complex universe. Unless you suggest that each derived simulation is less complex than the one before, it just can't work.

Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 10:54:31 AM
Actually yeah, I guess The Sims is a much better analogy.

So I think this basically answers your question. We already made The Sims and in 2050 "The Sims: Real A.I." version will answer your question.

Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 12:39:05 PM

Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 12:36:02 PMMoreover, why would an operator of a simulation be worthy of worship in any event?

Who says he would be?  Maybe he never asked to be worshipped, but some people somehow intuited his existence and do it anyway, and he finds it amusing/flattering so he does nothing to intervene.

He might not even be paying attention.

Maybe the entire universe as we know it exists in some tiny test tube someone forgot to throw away when they were done with it, and tomorrow they will remember to toss us in the incinerator.

Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 12:51:20 PM

Quote from: Valmy on July 20, 2009, 12:47:30 PM
The problem is God would have created Adam and Steve instead of Adam and Eve and humanity would die out in one generation.

You're forgetting that rainbows impregnate women in the Martiverse. :contract:

Women wouldn't exist in the Martiverse.  Homo purity is far more important than continuing the species.

Sounds like it could well be true.
I don't like the conclusion from this though.
How do they come to.

Quote
Either:
   1. Almost no civilization will reach a technological level capable of producing simulated realities.
   2. Almost no civilization reaching aforementioned technological status will produce a simulated reality, for any of a number of reasons, such as diversion of computational processing power for other tasks, ethical considerations of holding entities captive in simulated realities, etc.
   3. Almost all entities with our general set of experiences are living in a simulation.

Number 3 is a bit weasley worded to seem like there's no real life in existance.
Sure, that I have a million people in my computer makes 'almost all' technically correct but....myeah. Just sounds bad.

Solipsism?  Really now Cal.

Quote from: Neil on July 20, 2009, 11:06:29 AM
At some point, there has to be some hardware running the simulation.  Eventually, you're going to run out of processing power, even if the original civilization is willing to pour all their resources into such a simulation, which they of course would not be.

Bingo.  Unless we are as powerful as God, we'll never have that kind of hardware.  Limited simulations (say, the size of a city, or non-permanent, so that I could take a vacation to Ani in the 18th Century, when it is one of the greatest cities in the great Armenian Empire, and then leave for work when it would turn off, and then come back) would make sense, but a permanent simulation full of sapient scripts/sub-programs would take up too much energy almost no matter how you did it. 

Far more interesting/likely would be travel to alternative/parallel universes (say, one very similar, but where the Byzantines and Sassanids were not swallowed up by Arabs), but that has its own problems

For this model to work, within the simulation you'd probably have to have models of even sub-atomic particles such that the "simulated" society can reach the technological point where they can create such complex simulations.  But that'd take a fucking massive amount of CPU, as I have no idea how on any kind of hypothetical computer where you can store information on individual simulated sub-atomic particles.   More likely would be something similar to our current situation in computer games; a resolution such that to the naked eye things look like reality, that would have certain limitations on the existence of these simulated people.

EDIT: Come to think of it, quantum computing is the only way one could hope to get to the level of producing a truly convincing simulation, meaning that for the simulated universe to reach the technolgoical level of creating such simulations you'd have to model alternative universes within the simulated universe. I think that might be practically impossible. 

Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 10:41:40 AM
...far more likely to be in fact a simulated construct than an intelligent biological organism.  :bowler:

Or both?

FWIW I do a lot of simulation IRL.

Quote from: Queequeg on July 20, 2009, 07:02:28 PM
EDIT: Come to think of it, quantum computing is the only way one could hope to get to the level of producing a truly convincing simulation, meaning that for the simulated universe to reach the technolgoical level of creating such simulations you'd have to model alternative universes within the simulated universe. I think that might be practically impossible.

This sort of thing would either involve quantum computing or some even more advanced form of computing we haven't even dreamed of yet.

Sim One was a great movie.
With Al Pacino and Rachel Wood.

Quote from: Caliga on July 20, 2009, 08:33:46 PM
This sort of thing would either involve quantum computing or some even more advanced form of computing we haven't even dreamed of yet.

It would require computers capable of an infinite number of computations per nanosecond, and then to that to the infinite power to handle all the sub-simulations.

Get cracking, MicroStiff!

Siege, if it turned out that the Jewish God was just a computer programmer who decided to have some fun, would you still worship him, or would you posit the existence of a higher god who created the unknowable 'real' universe and worship that one instead?