Long but very enlightening read from 1843, a magazine from The Economist, on Chinese students preparing to get into top US universities. As this is a topic that comes up semi regularly I believe some of you might be interested.
https://www.1843magazine.com/features/the-long-march-from-china-to-the-ivies (https://www.1843magazine.com/features/the-long-march-from-china-to-the-ivies)
QuoteThe long march from China to the Ivies
Brook Larmer discovers what Chinese students go through to get into top American universities
(https://www.1843magazine.com/sites/default/files/styles/article-main-image-overlay/public/201604_FE_CHI_001-header.jpg)
As the daughter of a senior colonel in China's People's Liberation Army, Ren Futong has lived all 17 years of her life in a high-walled military compound in northern Beijing. No foreigners are allowed inside the gates; the vast encampment, with its own bank, grocery store and laundromat, is patrolled by armed guards and goose-stepping soldiers.
Growing up in this enclave, Ren – also known as Monica, the English name she has adopted – imbibed the lessons of conformity and obedience, loyalty and patriotism, in their purest form. At her school, independent thought that deviated from the reams of right answers the students needed to memorise for the next exam was suppressed. The purpose of it all, Monica told me, was "to make everybody the same".
For most of her childhood, Monica did as she was expected to. She gave up painting and calligraphy, and rose to the top of her class. Praised as a "study god", she aced the national high-school entrance exam, but inside she was beginning to rebel. The agony and monotony of studying for that test made her dread the prospect of three more years cramming for the gaokao, the pressure-packed national exam whose result – a single number – is the sole criterion for admissions into Chinese universities.
One spring evening two years ago, Monica, then 15, came home to the compound and made what, for an acquiescent military daughter, was a startling pronouncement. "I told my parents that I was tired of preparing for tests like a machine," she recalls. "I wanted to go to university in America." She had hinted at this desire before, talking once over dinner about the freedom offered by an American liberal-arts education, but her parents had dismissed it as idle chatter. This time, they could see that she was dead serious. "My parents were kinda shocked," she says. "They remained silent for a long period."
Several days passed before they broke their silence. Her father, a taciturn career officer educated at a military academy, told her that "it would be much easier if you stayed in China where your future is guaranteed." Her mother, an IT engineer, said Monica would very likely get into China's most prestigious institution, Peking University, a training ground for the country's future leaders. "Why give that up?" she asked. "We know the system here, but we know nothing about America, so we can't help you there. You'd be totally on your own." Then, after cycling through all the counter-arguments, her mother finally said: "If your heart is really set on going to the US, we will support your decision."
The Ren family was taking a considerable risk. If Monica, their only child, wanted to study abroad, she would have to abandon the gaokao track, the only route available to universities within China, to have time to prepare for a completely different set of standardised tests and a confounding university application process. If she changed her mind – or, worse, failed to make the transition – she could not resume her studies within the Chinese system. And if that happened, she would miss the chance of going to an elite university and, therefore, of getting a top job within the system. For the Rens, this was the point of no return.
She is wrong; her parents are right.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 08:06:04 AM
She is wrong; her parents are right.
Read the whole article, the quoted part is only the first bloc of it.
I still don't know which US university she got into. I think her chances are probably better with Peking university.
The article also confirmed what I have been thinking for a long time. I am a complete failure in my academic studies. I was no where close to a good university, and I only had myself to blame.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 08:22:25 AM
I still don't know which US university she got into. I think her chances are probably better with Peking university.
It's in the article, near the end:
QuoteMonica had to agonise for another three days before the University of Chicago told her she had been accepted. She will make a final decision later this spring, when she finds out the result of her "regular decision" applications to five other top-ranked schools, including Yale.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 08:47:15 AM
I was no where close to a good university, and I only had myself to blame.
Especially with such poor grammar.
I ran gaokao track in high school.
I'd show her a good time, then she could watch me nap for 2 hours afterwards.
'The Long March'
lol? :hmm:
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2016, 02:03:17 PM
'The Long March'
lol? :hmm:
Yeah. It's not even January, and college acceptance letters don't come out as late as March. January will be the long month.
And once March is over, they'll have a great leap forward?
Quote from: derspiess on December 29, 2016, 02:34:31 PM
And once March is over, they'll have a great leap forward?
:huh: Next time is 2020.
Quote from: derspiess on December 29, 2016, 02:34:31 PM
And once March is over, they'll have a great leap forward?
:D
How much of this is based on teenagers weighing the pros and cons of the american vs. chinese educational systems, and how much is based on teenagers weighing the pros and cons of the american vs. chinese college dating scenes?
Do Chinese students tend to date Americans?
Quote from: derspiess on December 29, 2016, 03:20:34 PM
Do Chinese students tend to date Americans?
My experience from college was the women certainly did. The men: not as much.
Quote from: derspiess on December 29, 2016, 03:20:34 PM
Do Chinese students tend to date Americans?
Based on my limited data from U. of I i'd say mostly not. I'd go further and say that most aren't into the whole college experience(tm): getting laid, getting fucked up, etc.
There were a few Chinese exchange students at my university but they didn't interact with anyone other than each other and mostly were quiet in classes.
Exception: Chinese from Hong Kong. They socialized with everyone else (including dating).
In fact, now that I think about it, my sophomore year roommate Vincent was from Hong Kong. He was a weird guy who pretended to have a doctor of divinity and solicited donations from old ladies with cancer, but other than that he was 'normal' and had a girlfriend.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 29, 2016, 03:24:03 PM
My experience from college was the women certainly did. The men: not as much.
Are you sure they were Reds?
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 08:06:04 AM
She is wrong; her parents are right.
No given the political direction in the PRC, an overseas degree is a good hedge if she needs to bolt.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 29, 2016, 03:18:24 PM
How much of this is based on teenagers weighing the pros and cons of the american vs. chinese educational systems, and how much is based on teenagers weighing the pros and cons of the american vs. chinese college dating scenes?
If the Chinese "study gods" only want to date, I am sure there are much easier options. The effort they put into the whole exam thing is no joke :ph34r:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 29, 2016, 03:47:46 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 08:06:04 AM
She is wrong; her parents are right.
No given the political direction in the PRC, an overseas degree is a good hedge if she needs to bolt.
She is on a student visa. Not a green card if I am not mistaken. She won't be able to bolt even if she wants to.
Yeah, the ones fresh off the boat from the mainland were always the creepy types, all study time and bringing honor to ancestors and shit. No nutrition, no fun.
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2016, 03:25:57 PM
There were a few Chinese exchange students at my university but they didn't interact with anyone other than each other and mostly were quiet in classes.
Exception: Chinese from Hong Kong. They socialized with everyone else (including dating).
The Hong Kong/Mainland students from my university mostly stayed within our own group. Some Indians kept bothering me about study tips and they tried to invite me into their study group.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 03:56:04 PM
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2016, 03:25:57 PM
There were a few Chinese exchange students at my university but they didn't interact with anyone other than each other and mostly were quiet in classes.
Exception: Chinese from Hong Kong. They socialized with everyone else (including dating).
The Hong Kong/Mainland students from my university mostly stayed within our own group. Some Indians kept bothering me about study tips and they tried to invite me into their study group.
did they defecate in public
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 03:51:42 PM
She is on a student visa. Not a green card if I am not mistaken. She won't be able to bolt even if she wants to.
If she graduates with honors, her chances of parlaying that into a work visa somewhere in the West are pretty decent even in the post-Trump world.
Even now I am somewhat disturbed by you guys' description that university is all about dating. I mean, some of my university Chinese friends certainly dated, but they were all in stable relationships and they still did well in their studies.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 04:05:32 PM
Even now I am somewhat disturbed by you guys' description that university is all about dating. I mean, some of my university Chinese friends certainly dated, but they were all in stable relationships and they still did well in their studies.
You don't say.
We didn't have any mainland Chinese students that I was aware of at either Marshall or Delaware. I did work with some interns we had at First USA Bank, though. Very intelligent, professional, polished, yet almost robotic. Both in the workplace and the few mandatory social gatherings we had for the marketing department. There was a really cute girl named Xing Xing (?) who made it seem like she was flirting with me, until I heard her just repeat the same shpiel to everyone else. YOU'RE NOT STEALING MY SECRETS XING XING
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 04:05:32 PM
Even now I am somewhat disturbed by you guys' description that university is all about dating. I mean, some of my university Chinese friends certainly dated, but they were all in stable relationships and they still did well in their studies.
Why does it disturb you?
Does it make you feel like you missed out?
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 04:05:32 PM
Even now I am somewhat disturbed by you guys' description that university is all about dating. I mean, some of my university Chinese friends certainly dated, but they were all in stable relationships and they still did well in their studies.
Gotta create a network.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 29, 2016, 04:14:36 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 04:05:32 PM
Even now I am somewhat disturbed by you guys' description that university is all about dating. I mean, some of my university Chinese friends certainly dated, but they were all in stable relationships and they still did well in their studies.
Why does it disturb you?
Does it make you feel like you missed out?
Because it is surreal and inconsistent with my experience. University is a place to prepare oneself for a future career. It is serious and important.
Females aren't interested in me, so I missed nothing.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 29, 2016, 03:46:24 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on December 29, 2016, 03:24:03 PM
My experience from college was the women certainly did. The men: not as much.
Are you sure they were Reds?
We are limiting this to the chinese? Then I don't know if any of the women were, though a dude was from hong kong. I'm basically talking about korean and japanese.
in the US, university/college (undergrad, at least) is largely considered an "experience" more than "a place to prepare oneself for a future career." I suspect the way we do things encourages a larger portion of the population to attend, if only for a year or two. IMO, this is a good thing, although it would be better if we did something about our high student debt.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 29, 2016, 04:27:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 29, 2016, 03:46:24 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on December 29, 2016, 03:24:03 PM
My experience from college was the women certainly did. The men: not as much.
Are you sure they were Reds?
We are limiting this to the chinese? Then I don't know if any of the women were, though a dude was from hong kong. I'm basically talking about korean and japanese.
wut
My bad.
From what my Chinese exchange students told me, Chinese universities are a bit of a joke; the key is to get into a good one (which is very hard) and graduate (which is easy). Any education you receive in the process is just a bonus.
Quote from: grumbler on December 29, 2016, 04:49:34 PM
From what my Chinese exchange students told me, Chinese universities are a bit of a joke; the key is to get into a good one (which is very hard) and graduate (which is easy). Any education you receive in the process is just a bonus.
Yeah. Our data is that the completion rate in HK universities is around 98-99%. Basically, anybody who doesn't screw up mightily will graduate.
Quote from: derspiess on December 29, 2016, 04:10:21 PM
We didn't have any mainland Chinese students that I was aware of at either Marshall or Delaware.
Talk about bringing shame to one's family and ancestors. Probably even more so for Chinese students.
QuoteXing Xing (?) who made it seem like she was flirting with me, until I heard her just repeat the same shpiel to everyone else. YOU'RE NOT STEALING MY SECRETS XING XING
lol, a panda exchange program masquerading as a spy ring.
anyway, back on topic re: whether homegrown chinese students are cool
from my brief experience, yes. talk about great china, list off some HOI or vicky province names, and they buy you drinks all night long
Quote from: LaCroix on December 29, 2016, 05:03:32 PM
anyway, back on topic re: whether homegrown chinese students are cool
from my brief experience, yes. talk about great china, list off some HOI or vicky province names, and they buy you drinks all night long
Such as Sinchiang and Tibet? :ph34r:
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 04:18:36 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 29, 2016, 04:14:36 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 04:05:32 PM
Even now I am somewhat disturbed by you guys' description that university is all about dating. I mean, some of my university Chinese friends certainly dated, but they were all in stable relationships and they still did well in their studies.
Why does it disturb you?
Does it make you feel like you missed out?
Because it is surreal and inconsistent with my experience. University is a place to prepare oneself for a future career. It is serious and important.
Females aren't interested in me, so I missed nothing.
It's not all about dating. Some of it's about boozing.
Seriously, though, an undergrad degree in most fields doesn't really prepare anyone for a career. And mostly, prospective employers don't care where you got your undergrad degree from or what kind of grades you got there.
Quote from: Caliga on December 29, 2016, 03:28:48 PM
In fact, now that I think about it, my sophomore year roommate Vincent was from Hong Kong. He was a weird guy who pretended to have a doctor of divinity and solicited donations from old ladies with cancer, but other than that he was 'normal' and had a girlfriend.
That goes so far beyond being a weird guy into being irredeemable scum of the worst sort.
Quote from: dps on December 29, 2016, 05:20:47 PM
Seriously, though, an undergrad degree in most fields doesn't really prepare anyone for a career. And mostly, prospective employers don't care where you got your undergrad degree from or what kind of grades you got there.
That's why it is important to find work in places where these things are still valued :contract:
Yeah actually the "boozing" part also scares me somewhat. Not really sure what you mean but I would expect undergraduate students to stay away from alcohol. I didn't know anybody who drank.
Quote from: alfred russel on December 29, 2016, 04:27:37 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 29, 2016, 03:46:24 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on December 29, 2016, 03:24:03 PM
My experience from college was the women certainly did. The men: not as much.
Are you sure they were Reds?
We are limiting this to the chinese? Then I don't know if any of the women were, though a dude was from hong kong. I'm basically talking about korean and japanese.
They're all Chinamen, ain't they? :lol:
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 05:30:43 PM
Quote from: dps on December 29, 2016, 05:20:47 PM
Seriously, though, an undergrad degree in most fields doesn't really prepare anyone for a career. And mostly, prospective employers don't care where you got your undergrad degree from or what kind of grades you got there.
That's why it is important to find work in places where these things are still valued :contract:
It's better to find work in places worth living in. Not that I have much room to talk there; I live in North Carolina.
Quote from: derspiess on December 29, 2016, 05:47:44 PM
They're all Chinamen, ain't they? :lol:
I know I was very excited to go off to college far from home, and it had nothing to do with educational opportunities or future job prospects.
Quote from: dps on December 29, 2016, 05:48:10 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 05:30:43 PM
Quote from: dps on December 29, 2016, 05:20:47 PM
Seriously, though, an undergrad degree in most fields doesn't really prepare anyone for a career. And mostly, prospective employers don't care where you got your undergrad degree from or what kind of grades you got there.
That's why it is important to find work in places where these things are still valued :contract:
It's better to find work in places worth living in. Not that I have much room to talk there; I live in North Carolina.
If you have money, a lot of places that don't seem to be worth living in suddenly become ok. If you don't have money, even the best places will suck.
people tend to rationalize where they live is worth living in. not that I would know
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 05:51:15 PM
Quote from: dps on December 29, 2016, 05:48:10 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 05:30:43 PM
Quote from: dps on December 29, 2016, 05:20:47 PM
Seriously, though, an undergrad degree in most fields doesn't really prepare anyone for a career. And mostly, prospective employers don't care where you got your undergrad degree from or what kind of grades you got there.
That's why it is important to find work in places where these things are still valued :contract:
It's better to find work in places worth living in. Not that I have much room to talk there; I live in North Carolina.
If you have money, a lot of places that don't seem to be worth living in suddenly become ok. If you don't have money, even the best places will suck.
You ain't getting rich working as a drone, so how would you know?
I've never been rich, but I've been doing OK and I've been poor, and while doing OK is definitely better than being poor, doing OK financially while being miserable is the worst of both worlds--all the hard work, and none of the enjoyment.
Quote from: dps on December 29, 2016, 06:01:11 PM
You ain't getting rich working as a drone, so how would you know?
I've never been rich, but I've been doing OK and I've been poor, and while doing OK is definitely better than being poor, doing OK financially while being miserable is the worst of both worlds--all the hard work, and none of the enjoyment.
I'll never be rich. But having a job beats not having one. Doing ok financially while being miserable at work beats being poor.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 06:10:20 PM
Quote from: dps on December 29, 2016, 06:01:11 PM
You ain't getting rich working as a drone, so how would you know?
I've never been rich, but I've been doing OK and I've been poor, and while doing OK is definitely better than being poor, doing OK financially while being miserable is the worst of both worlds--all the hard work, and none of the enjoyment.
I'll never be rich. But having a job beats not having one.
Sure, but you don't have to have a job that makes you miserable. Well, maybe
you do, but that's because of the path you've chosen.
QuoteDoing ok financially while being miserable at work beats being poor.
Nope. Not unless by "poor" you mean homeless and completely destitute.
Quote from: dps on December 29, 2016, 06:16:53 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 06:10:20 PM
Quote from: dps on December 29, 2016, 06:01:11 PM
You ain't getting rich working as a drone, so how would you know?
I've never been rich, but I've been doing OK and I've been poor, and while doing OK is definitely better than being poor, doing OK financially while being miserable is the worst of both worlds--all the hard work, and none of the enjoyment.
I'll never be rich. But having a job beats not having one.
Sure, but you don't have to have a job that makes you miserable. Well, maybe you do, but that's because of the path you've chosen.
QuoteDoing ok financially while being miserable at work beats being poor.
Nope. Not unless by "poor" you mean homeless and completely destitute.
Most jobs are miserable. The ones that aren't usually don't pay living wages.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 29, 2016, 03:53:54 PM
Yeah, the ones fresh off the boat from the mainland were always the creepy types, all study time and bringing honor to ancestors and shit. No nutrition, no fun.
And spending their spare time spying on the nearest military base or research facility.
I remember that somebody did an experiment. Mail the exact same resume to US employers, but with names from different ethnicities. The ones with Chinese names got the worst response :lol:
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 09:13:53 PM
I remember that somebody did an experiment. Mail the exact same resume to US employers, but with names from different ethnicities. The ones with Chinese names got the worst response :lol:
Depends on the industry.
Quote from: LaCroix on December 29, 2016, 05:03:32 PM
anyway, back on topic re: whether homegrown chinese students are cool
In my vast experience of one sample, no. Met a Chinese dude in university. Laziest motherfucker I've ever met in my life.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 09:13:53 PM
I remember that somebody did an experiment. Mail the exact same resume to US employers, but with names from different ethnicities. The ones with Chinese names got the worst response :lol:
My hunch is that names like Tyrone and Shaniqua were not in the experiment.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 06:10:20 PM
But having a job beats not having one.
Depends on the job and available outside resources.
Quote from: Eddie Teach on December 29, 2016, 11:17:17 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 29, 2016, 06:10:20 PM
But having a job beats not having one.
Depends on the job and available outside resources.
Self-sufficiency is the most important goal in life :bowler: