QuoteA new website inviting white people to provide minorities with free goods, services, and financial assistance as a means of "reparations" has been launched.
"Reparations.me" is a website that takes the principles of crowdsourcing and applies them to white liberal guilt. It invites minorities to request free stuff — ranging from favours and "emotional support" to money. It then invites white people (or "people who identify as white," to use the website's definition) to provide them.
Examples on the site include a request for free video games, for help covering tuition fees at the University of Pennsylvania, and, bizarrely, an offer to argue with white people on behalf of minorities.
The site was created by Natasha Marin, who describes herself on her personal website as a "poet and interdisciplinary artist" and claims to have received grants from the cities of Austin and Seattle for "community projects involving text-based, visual, performance, and multimedia art."
The idea for Reparations.me was born in a Facebook event created by Marin on July 15, 2016, in which she encouraged minorities to, well, ask for free things from white people.
Marin's idea has moved off Facebook onto a self-contained site that roughly follows the principles of crowdfunding. Minorities are allowed to post "requests" on the site that can subsequently be fulfilled by white people. White people, meanwhile, are allowed to post "offers" of their services.
These services don't have to be material, of course. One white poster, for example, offers what she calls "emphatic listening." The poster, Meagan, claims to be trained in "Emotional Freedom Technique and Nonviolent Communication" and offers "peer-counselling style sessions over phone or Skype."
What about the requests? Well, they can be a little more ... material.
The latest request on the site, for example, calls for help paying tuition fees for his UPenn math course. Another request asks for food and housing, while one poster just wants free video games from white people. (The poster calls it "gaming therapy.")
Multiple other requests simply ask for financial assistance. One asks for a "financial blessing," while another wants help to "get on their feet." Another requester asked for help to improve their credit score. All of the requests cite personal misfortunes in their posts, ranging from personal clinical anxiety to raising an autistic child. However, it's unclear if the site has taken any steps to verify their stories.
http://reparations.me (http://reparations.me)
I figured this is something all of you cucks would be interested in. :)
Jacob this site is custom made for you.
Quote from: Jaron on July 30, 2016, 12:04:48 AM
Jacob this site is custom made for you.
[OFFER] My wife to provide personal services to an oppressed minority
Okay times, to assuage my white guilt and atone for the sins of my ancestors, I posted:
[OFFER] Sexual gratification for a clean, attractive, 18-25 year old Latina
It's the least I could do to make up for my white privilege. :(
Surely this must be a prank. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2016, 12:17:11 AM
Surely this must be a prank. :lol:
Never underestimate the willingness of kind and sensitive persons like Jacob to share with minorities. :)
Pity that wasn't around when Kanye was asking Zuckerberg for money.
QuoteThe site was created by Natasha Marin, who describes herself on her personal website as a "poet and interdisciplinary artist"
This is where I stopped reading.
I am still waiting for my reparations from Mongolia.
mart can give people aids
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 30, 2016, 01:18:58 AM
QuoteThe site was created by Natasha Marin, who describes herself on her personal website as a "poet and interdisciplinary artist"
This is where I stopped reading.
You're missing out.
QuoteThe poster, Meagan, claims to be trained in "Emotional Freedom Technique and Nonviolent Communication"
Quote from: The Brain on July 30, 2016, 01:51:09 AM
mart can give people aids
Would it be like hearing aids?
Quote from: Fireblade on July 30, 2016, 12:01:40 AM
QuoteA new website inviting white people to provide minorities with free goods, services, and financial assistance as a means of "reparations" has been launched.
"Reparations.me" is a website that takes the principles of crowdsourcing and applies them to white liberal guilt. It invites minorities to request free stuff — ranging from favours and "emotional support" to money. It then invites white people (or "people who identify as white," to use the website's definition) to provide them.
Examples on the site include a request for free video games, for help covering tuition fees at the University of Pennsylvania, and, bizarrely, an offer to argue with white people on behalf of minorities.
The site was created by Natasha Marin, who describes herself on her personal website as a "poet and interdisciplinary artist" and claims to have received grants from the cities of Austin and Seattle for "community projects involving text-based, visual, performance, and multimedia art."
The idea for Reparations.me was born in a Facebook event created by Marin on July 15, 2016, in which she encouraged minorities to, well, ask for free things from white people.
Marin's idea has moved off Facebook onto a self-contained site that roughly follows the principles of crowdfunding. Minorities are allowed to post "requests" on the site that can subsequently be fulfilled by white people. White people, meanwhile, are allowed to post "offers" of their services.
These services don't have to be material, of course. One white poster, for example, offers what she calls "emphatic listening." The poster, Meagan, claims to be trained in "Emotional Freedom Technique and Nonviolent Communication" and offers "peer-counselling style sessions over phone or Skype."
What about the requests? Well, they can be a little more ... material.
The latest request on the site, for example, calls for help paying tuition fees for his UPenn math course. Another request asks for food and housing, while one poster just wants free video games from white people. (The poster calls it "gaming therapy.")
Multiple other requests simply ask for financial assistance. One asks for a "financial blessing," while another wants help to "get on their feet." Another requester asked for help to improve their credit score. All of the requests cite personal misfortunes in their posts, ranging from personal clinical anxiety to raising an autistic child. However, it's unclear if the site has taken any steps to verify their stories.
http://reparations.me (http://reparations.me)
I figured this is something all of you kind and sensitive persons would be interested in. :)
They ought to be give us suit.
Quote
(The poster calls it "gaming therapy.")
Need to keep this on file for when I spend too much time playing some games. Warhammer Total War must be surely great for my spiritual healing.
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 30, 2016, 01:30:15 AM
I am still waiting for my reparations from Mongolia.
You are just sour you had to give back all those gold-teeth.
They can't be serious.
Quote from: Monoriu on July 30, 2016, 11:19:33 AM
They can't be serious.
Oh they are. It's mental and cultural self-harm, analogous to teenagers who cut themselves.
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 30, 2016, 11:20:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 30, 2016, 11:19:33 AM
They can't be serious.
Oh they are. It's mental and cultural self-harm, analogous to teenagers who cut themselves.
Or, you know, it's an art project. The clue is right there.
Quote from: Jacob on July 30, 2016, 11:21:44 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 30, 2016, 11:20:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 30, 2016, 11:19:33 AM
They can't be serious.
Oh they are. It's mental and cultural self-harm, analogous to teenagers who cut themselves.
Or, you know, it's an art project. The clue is right there.
That's possible, but hey, Poe's law.
If they are serious, then I demand my rightful cash compensation for the unbearable psychological damage that the Chinese Exclusions Act caused. Say, about US$10 million should do it :menace:
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 30, 2016, 11:20:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 30, 2016, 11:19:33 AM
They can't be serious.
Oh they are. It's mental and cultural self-harm, analogous to teenagers who cut themselves.
Or, you know, allowing another guy to have sex with your wife. I forgot the word for that. :P
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2016, 11:49:07 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 30, 2016, 11:20:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 30, 2016, 11:19:33 AM
They can't be serious.
Oh they are. It's mental and cultural self-harm, analogous to teenagers who cut themselves.
Or, you know, allowing another guy to have sex with your wife. I forgot the word for that. :P
I know that it's fashionable right now, but it's an insult only a 14 year old would be proud of.
But it's not an insult as much as it is a simile.
Essentially, the philosophy of this insult is that "wife" is a metaphor for your culture/background/civilization (in this case the Western civilization), and someone who is a "kind and sensitive person" is letting someone else fuck it while he watches it helplessly.
It has absolutely nothing to do with an attack at the person's marital life.
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2016, 11:55:50 AM
But it's not an insult as much as it is a simile.
Essentially, the philosophy of this insult is that "wife" is a metaphor for your culture/background/civilization (in this case the Western civilization), and someone who is a "kind and sensitive person" is letting someone else fuck it while he watches it helplessly.
Oh I get it, I just find the alt-right Trumpkins really.... juvenile. The social, economic and moral problems posed by e.g. these reparations people, driven by an insane, destructive victimhood culture are very serious. And I really worry.
Go ahead, mock them as "cucks". But what they are is moral invalids.
Quote from: Fireblade on July 30, 2016, 12:09:32 AM
Okay times, to assuage my white guilt and atone for the sins of my ancestors, I posted:
[OFFER] Sexual gratification for a clean, attractive, 18-25 year old Latina
It's the least I could do to make up for my white privilege. :(
An alternative way to troll:
"Family heirlooms: old whip, some chains, and a thumbscrew. Antiques that my family hasn't used in a really long time. Because of age I don't want to throw them away. I know its awkward, but I feel that if anyone should get them it should be you guys."
Quote from: alfred russel on July 30, 2016, 11:59:08 AM
An alternative way to troll:
"Family heirlooms: old whip, some chains, and a thumbscrew. Antiques that my family hasn't used in a really long time. Because of age I don't want to throw them away. I know its awkward, but I feel that if anyone should get them it should be you guys."
Seems like most of the trolling is going the other way, though people are taking it at face value which is amusing.
Quote from: Jacob on July 30, 2016, 11:21:44 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 30, 2016, 11:20:51 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on July 30, 2016, 11:19:33 AM
They can't be serious.
Oh they are. It's mental and cultural self-harm, analogous to teenagers who cut themselves.
Or, you know, it's an art project. The clue is right there.
now there's a term that has lost immense value during the last half-century or so.
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2016, 11:55:50 AM
But it's not an insult as much as it is a simile.
Essentially, the philosophy of this insult is that "wife" is a metaphor for your culture/background/civilization (in this case the Western civilization), and someone who is a "kind and sensitive person" is letting someone else fuck it while he watches it helplessly.
It has absolutely nothing to do with an attack at the person's marital life.
When I read the gibberish you post, I always wonder "is he incoherent because he is bad at explaining things, or because he is bad at understanding things?"
Learn the meaning of simile before misusing it again, please.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2016, 12:35:28 PM
now there's a term that has lost immense value during the last half-century or so.
Yeah? The term was highly valued in 1966? The Situationists were in full swing at that time, so I think you'll have to go back further than that... probably more than a century, given Duchamp's readymades and other Dadaists art were going strong in the 1910s.
Maybe a century-and-a-half ago? That's when those dastardly impressionists were establishing themselves in contrast to academic painters.
Quote from: Jacob on July 30, 2016, 01:08:42 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2016, 12:35:28 PM
now there's a term that has lost immense value during the last half-century or so.
Yeah? The term was highly valued in 1966? The Situationists were in full swing at that time, so I think you'll have to go back further than that... probably more than a century, given Duchamp's readymades and other Dadaists art were going strong in the 1910s.
Maybe a century-and-a-half ago? That's when those dastardly impressionists were establishing themselves in contrast to academic painters.
:D :)
Quote from: Jacob on July 30, 2016, 01:08:42 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2016, 12:35:28 PM
now there's a term that has lost immense value during the last half-century or so.
Yeah? The term was highly valued in 1966? The Situationists were in full swing at that time, so I think you'll have to go back further than that... probably more than a century, given Duchamp's readymades and other Dadaists art were going strong in the 1910s.
Maybe a century-and-a-half ago? That's when those dastardly impressionists were establishing themselves in contrast to academic painters.
nope, half a century will do just fine.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2016, 03:24:26 PM
nope, half a century will do just fine.
How's this different from the Situationists?
Quote from: Jacob on July 30, 2016, 03:37:47 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on July 30, 2016, 03:24:26 PM
nope, half a century will do just fine.
How's this different from the Situationists?
Also does that make AbEx the high water mark for art?
Like Nietzsche said Art Is Dead.
Is Paul OK?
He's gone to look for America.
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2016, 11:55:50 AM
But it's not an insult as much as it is a simile.
Essentially, the philosophy of this insult is that "wife" is a metaphor for your culture/background/civilization (in this case the Western civilization), and someone who is a "kind and sensitive person" is letting someone else fuck it while he watches it helplessly.
It has absolutely nothing to do with an attack at the person's marital life.
Okay, stay the fuck out of our culture.
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2016, 11:55:50 AM
But it's not an insult as much as it is a simile.
Essentially, the philosophy of this insult is that "wife" is a metaphor for your culture/background/civilization (in this case the Western civilization), and someone who is a "kind and sensitive person" is letting someone else fuck it while he watches it helplessly.
It has absolutely nothing to do with an attack at the person's marital life.
What would be the appropriate metaphorical insult for someone not particularly kind nor sensitive who cheers on someone as he fucks over one's culture?
What is......... Could you repeat the question Alex?
(https://static01.nyt.com/images/2011/02/17/us/17jeopardy_337-span/17jeopardy_337-span-articleLarge.jpg)
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2016, 11:55:50 AM
But it's not an insult as much as it is a simile.
Essentially, the philosophy of this insult is that "wife" is a metaphor for your culture/background/civilization (in this case the Western civilization), and someone who is a "kind and sensitive person" is letting someone else fuck it while he watches it helplessly.
It has absolutely nothing to do with an attack at the person's marital life.
It seems quite a few of the Alt-right take it literally. (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEEj4VqO.jpg&hash=3867c298d4938b076b398aee8b4a2aec398ba152)
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2016, 11:55:50 AM
But it's not an insult as much as it is a simile.
Essentially, the philosophy of this insult is that "wife" is a metaphor for your culture/background/civilization (in this case the Western civilization), and someone who is a "kind and sensitive person" is letting someone else fuck it while he watches it helplessly.
It has absolutely nothing to do with an attack at the person's marital life.
Implying Poland is part of Western civilization :rolleyes:
Quote from: Razgovory on July 30, 2016, 09:09:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2016, 11:55:50 AM
But it's not an insult as much as it is a simile.
Essentially, the philosophy of this insult is that "wife" is a metaphor for your culture/background/civilization (in this case the Western civilization), and someone who is a "kind and sensitive person" is letting someone else fuck it while he watches it helplessly.
It has absolutely nothing to do with an attack at the person's marital life.
It seems quite a few of the Alt-right take it literally. (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEEj4VqO.jpg&hash=3867c298d4938b076b398aee8b4a2aec398ba152)
Er, ok?
Did you take time to create this collage? Why don't you make another one with BLM leftists calling for killing of cops?
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 01:01:35 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on July 30, 2016, 09:09:34 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 30, 2016, 11:55:50 AM
But it's not an insult as much as it is a simile.
Essentially, the philosophy of this insult is that "wife" is a metaphor for your culture/background/civilization (in this case the Western civilization), and someone who is a "kind and sensitive person" is letting someone else fuck it while he watches it helplessly.
It has absolutely nothing to do with an attack at the person's marital life.
It seems quite a few of the Alt-right take it literally. (https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEEj4VqO.jpg&hash=3867c298d4938b076b398aee8b4a2aec398ba152)
Er, ok?
Did you take time to create this collage? Why don't you make another one with BLM leftists calling for killing of cops?
I don't think Raz went to college but nice try.
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 01:01:35 AM
Er, ok?
Did you take time to create this collage? Why don't you make another one with BLM leftists calling for killing of cops?
No, I simply found it in a search. You trying to compare to Black Lives Matter not surprising. Blacks are Westerners, they are Americans. They are not some incompatible culture. What does makes them the enemy of the Alt-right is
race.
The person that all these twits are angry at is named Roosh Valizadeh, some sort of pick up artist who writes books https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roosh_V. He was attracted to the Alt-right through the pitiful ideas of "men's rights" and the general political incorrectness. He was not welcome into the fold. His Middle Eastern ancestry and dark skin were incompatible with Alt-Right. Not his "culture" (which is American). He is exactly what those screaming "kind and sensitive person" fear most, dark skinned men fucking white women.
Now Minstrel Milo can shuck and jive all he wants about culture and metaphors, but the real truth is this is about race, and Alt-right understand "kind and sensitive person" to be sexual in nature not some elegant insult derived from allegory. It's Julius Streicher not Voltaire.
If the Alt-Right has now branded Valizadeh as an enemy I think it's pretty much a "whoever loses, we win" scenario.
Quote from: celedhring on July 31, 2016, 10:57:21 AM
If the Alt-Right has now branded Valizadeh as an enemy I think it's pretty much a "whoever loses, we win" scenario.
Worth noting for those who are attracted to the alt right but are not straight white men; they'll turn on you eventually.
Quote from: Jacob on July 31, 2016, 11:21:21 AM
Quote from: celedhring on July 31, 2016, 10:57:21 AM
If the Alt-Right has now branded Valizadeh as an enemy I think it's pretty much a "whoever loses, we win" scenario.
Worth noting for those who are attracted to the alt right but are not straight white men; they'll turn on you eventually.
Yeah, it's a cesspool. But so is far left (including movements like BLM and Bernie Bros). I guess this makes Hillary a better choice to support, because she pisses off both sides of this quagmire, whereas Trump only pisses off one.
With Milo off Twitter Mart will never have an opinion again. :(
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 01:03:21 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 31, 2016, 11:21:21 AM
Quote from: celedhring on July 31, 2016, 10:57:21 AM
If the Alt-Right has now branded Valizadeh as an enemy I think it's pretty much a "whoever loses, we win" scenario.
Worth noting for those who are attracted to the alt right but are not straight white men; they'll turn on you eventually.
Yeah, it's a cesspool. But so is far left (including movements like BLM and Bernie Bros). I guess this makes Hillary a better choice to support, because she pisses off both sides of this quagmire, whereas Trump only pisses off one.
The alt right is just the logical conclusion of identity politics. If the only way to get status is being a victimized group, white people will go become a victimized group. Identity politics is the tiger shark tearing apart the intestines of Western society.
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 01:18:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 01:03:21 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 31, 2016, 11:21:21 AM
Quote from: celedhring on July 31, 2016, 10:57:21 AM
If the Alt-Right has now branded Valizadeh as an enemy I think it's pretty much a "whoever loses, we win" scenario.
Worth noting for those who are attracted to the alt right but are not straight white men; they'll turn on you eventually.
Yeah, it's a cesspool. But so is far left (including movements like BLM and Bernie Bros). I guess this makes Hillary a better choice to support, because she pisses off both sides of this quagmire, whereas Trump only pisses off one.
The alt right is just the logical conclusion of identity politics. If the only way to get status is being a victimized group, white people will go become a victimized group. Identity politics is the tiger shark tearing apart the intestines of Western society.
Yeah, they are mirror images of each other.
The difference, of course, is that within living memory most of the other groups besides white males have faced political and social persecution so maybe the defensiveness is warranted. I don't think its about white males wanting to be a victimized group for status, its more likely discomfort with losing dominant status.
That said, do I think some groups take it too far - like in this case? Yes.
But identity politics are rooted in necessity and survival.
Quote from: Jaron on July 31, 2016, 01:36:47 PM
The difference, of course, is that within living memory most of the other groups besides white males have faced political and social persecution so maybe the defensiveness is warranted. I don't think its about white males wanting to be a victimized group for status, its more likely discomfort with losing dominant status.
That said, do I think some groups take it too far - like in this case? Yes.
But identity politics are rooted in necessity and survival.
You get an A+ in Social Justice 101. Yay!
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 01:38:38 PM
Quote from: Jaron on July 31, 2016, 01:36:47 PM
The difference, of course, is that within living memory most of the other groups besides white males have faced political and social persecution so maybe the defensiveness is warranted. I don't think its about white males wanting to be a victimized group for status, its more likely discomfort with losing dominant status.
That said, do I think some groups take it too far - like in this case? Yes.
But identity politics are rooted in necessity and survival.
You get an A+ in Social Justice 101. Yay!
So, what is your take on this then? How should these groups address the discrimination they face?
Wouldn't that depend on the social class the white male belongs to? I suppose low/working class white male may actually have fewer options available than low/working class member of any other group.
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 01:43:18 PM
Wouldn't that depend on the social class the white male belongs to? I suppose low/working class white male may actually have fewer options available than low/working class member of any other group.
Except they're practically tossed into the boardroms of Fortune 500 companies.
Quote from: Jaron on July 31, 2016, 01:40:45 PM
So, what is your take on this then? How should these groups address the discrimination they face?
Get back to work.
That doesn't even make sense. That's just a "Should be seen, not heard" mentality.
Quote from: Jaron on July 31, 2016, 01:36:47 PM
The difference, of course, is that within living memory most of the other groups besides white males have faced political and social persecution so maybe the defensiveness is warranted. I don't think its about white males wanting to be a victimized group for status, its more likely discomfort with losing dominant status.
That said, do I think some groups take it too far - like in this case? Yes.
But identity politics are rooted in necessity and survival.
What does the concept of cultural appropriation, just to take one example, have to do with survival?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 31, 2016, 01:55:02 PM
Quote from: Jaron on July 31, 2016, 01:36:47 PM
The difference, of course, is that within living memory most of the other groups besides white males have faced political and social persecution so maybe the defensiveness is warranted. I don't think its about white males wanting to be a victimized group for status, its more likely discomfort with losing dominant status.
That said, do I think some groups take it too far - like in this case? Yes.
But identity politics are rooted in necessity and survival.
What does the concept of cultural appropriation, just to take one example, have to do with survival?
I agree there is excess. I'm just arguing for some level of necessity of identity politics. I'm not justifying all of it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on July 31, 2016, 01:55:02 PM
Quote from: Jaron on July 31, 2016, 01:36:47 PM
The difference, of course, is that within living memory most of the other groups besides white males have faced political and social persecution so maybe the defensiveness is warranted. I don't think its about white males wanting to be a victimized group for status, its more likely discomfort with losing dominant status.
That said, do I think some groups take it too far - like in this case? Yes.
But identity politics are rooted in necessity and survival.
What does the concept of cultural appropriation, just to take one example, have to do with survival?
"Cultural appropriation" is a concept so inane and harmful that people proposing it should be flogged in the streets. If you are so worried about faux Asian food, then I'll take back my enlightenment, quantum physics and even the postmodern philosophy which spawned this conflagration of idiocy.
My main problem with the identity politics is that, when I watch the US society from aside, it seems to be underlying divisions rooted, ultimately, in class and wealth differences. Whether you are black or white, if you are poor, you will be treated by the police in a shitty manner, and you will be more likely to end up in prison than people in other social strata.
By shifting this dynamic to racial and ethnic politics it basically distracts the masses from the real thing - but I suppose this is how the elites want it. But then it make the masses vulnerable to someone like Trump - who, essentially, took the idiotic racial victimisation concept and applied it to the white male. So whilst I will obviously not enjoy the destruction of the Western elites due to this phenomenon (and mark my words, if Trump loses, there will come another, worse one, and another worse one and yet another worse one, during each elections cycle), there is a certain element of Schadenfreude involved.
I think it's like many things a useful concept that used idiotically.
I've always thought and still do that all politics is and always has been identity politics, just the circle of who is able to participate is widening.
I think a lot of the stuff at universities is silly but that has always been the case with student politics. Conservative students in the 80s in the UK went around wearing 'Hang Nelson Mandela' t-shirts and chatting about how Enoch was right, they are now the same Tory MPs who are voting for gay marriage and are profoundly comfortable with Britain as a multi-racial society. Likewise (see John O'Farrell's 'Things Can Only Get Better') the same people who were backing physical force nationalism, raising money for the Sandinistas and active members of the Communist Party GB became exemplary New Labour Ministers (in some cases they even became Lib Dem Ministers :lol:).
So yeah to a degree what they're doing in the Oxford Union and Harvard matters and will be mainstream in a few years, but chances are it'll look as dated as the Tory boys and the Spartists (he says watching with grim horror as a steely Tory woman takes over and the Labour Party collapse into far left factional infighting).
My problem with identity politics is that it deprives people of individual agency instead reducing them to one trait (or a few, as the cross-sectional abomination would argue). This is the new wave of collectivism (which has been at least since the 18th century an ideology completely distinct from both liberalism and conservatism - but masquerading often as either) - and it is not less monstrous, dehumanising and unnatural than the previous ones.
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 02:14:17 PM
My main problem with the identity politics is that, when I watch the US society from aside, it seems to be underlying divisions rooted, ultimately, in class and wealth differences. Whether you are black or white, if you are poor, you will be treated by the police in a shitty manner, and you will be more likely to end up in prison than people in other social strata.
By shifting this dynamic to racial and ethnic politics it basically distracts the masses from the real thing - but I suppose this is how the elites want it. But then it make the masses vulnerable to someone like Trump - who, essentially, took the idiotic racial victimisation concept and applied it to the white male. So whilst I will obviously not enjoy the destruction of the Western elites due to this phenomenon (and mark my words, if Trump loses, there will come another, worse one, and another worse one and yet another worse one, during each elections cycle), there is a certain element of Schadenfreude involved.
This reminds me of Seumas Milne, Corbyn's chief of communications and strategy, who used to work for a Stalinist splinter paper of the CPGB. It was appropriately enough called 'Straight Left' but its argument was exactly that concerns about race, feminism and, especially, sexual orientation were a bourgeois distraction from the real class struggle. They used to hate people like the sainted Peter Tatchell or Harriet Harman for running campaigns that actually guaranteed what we'd consider basic rights looking back. And in a way it's a mirror image of 'what's wrong with Kansas' and the whole 'clinging to God, guns and religion' argument. But in neither case do I think it's some sort of false consciousness.
Also I mean even Theresa May as Home Secretary took the police to task for the different way black people are treated and mentioned it in her first speech as PM. Though I think you're partly right. Hillsborough and Orgreave for that matter would not happen if it was middle class men involved and it would not have taken as long as it has to even start to get the truth if it wasn't something that affected the working class men of Yorkshire and Liverpool. If there'd been dead after a crush at a rugby match there would have been a very different response.
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 02:23:29 PM
My problem with identity politics is that it deprives people of individual agency instead reducing them to one trait (or a few, as the cross-sectional abomination would argue). This is the new wave of collectivism (which has been at least since the 18th century an ideology completely distinct from both liberalism and conservatism - but masquerading often as either) - and it is not less monstrous, dehumanising and unnatural than the previous ones.
I think that exists in the US where you do get a sort of essentialism which is problematic and in machine politics - eg. the Tories with Sikh communities in some seats and Labour with Muslim communities in others.
But almost by definition identity is plural and I think a lot of writers about identity politics are fundamentally looking at it from a post-modern perspective of how identity is constructed - see women politicians and their voice: May, Thatcher, Clinton and I think Merkel. My problem with a lot of identity politics is actually the opposite of yours in that I'm not entirely convinced on liberalism and part of me thinks this is just individualism run amok. There is no cohesion which is lovely in a way but I don't think it's very difficult to maintain a society on that basis.
Quote from: Sheilbh on July 31, 2016, 02:25:48 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 02:14:17 PM
My main problem with the identity politics is that, when I watch the US society from aside, it seems to be underlying divisions rooted, ultimately, in class and wealth differences. Whether you are black or white, if you are poor, you will be treated by the police in a shitty manner, and you will be more likely to end up in prison than people in other social strata.
By shifting this dynamic to racial and ethnic politics it basically distracts the masses from the real thing - but I suppose this is how the elites want it. But then it make the masses vulnerable to someone like Trump - who, essentially, took the idiotic racial victimisation concept and applied it to the white male. So whilst I will obviously not enjoy the destruction of the Western elites due to this phenomenon (and mark my words, if Trump loses, there will come another, worse one, and another worse one and yet another worse one, during each elections cycle), there is a certain element of Schadenfreude involved.
This reminds me of Seumas Milne, Corbyn's chief of communications and strategy, who used to work for a Stalinist splinter paper of the CPGB. It was appropriately enough called 'Straight Left' but its argument was exactly that concerns about race, feminism and, especially, sexual orientation were a bourgeois distraction from the real class struggle. They used to hate people like the sainted Peter Tatchell or Harriet Harman for running campaigns that actually guaranteed what we'd consider basic rights looking back. And in a way it's a mirror image of 'what's wrong with Kansas' and the whole 'clinging to God, guns and religion' argument. But in neither case do I think it's some sort of false consciousness.
Also I mean even Theresa May as Home Secretary took the police to task for the different way black people are treated and mentioned it in her first speech as PM. Though I think you're partly right. Hillsborough and Orgreave for that matter would not happen if it was middle class men involved and it would not have taken as long as it has to even start to get the truth if it wasn't something that affected the working class men of Yorkshire and Liverpool. If there'd been dead after a crush at a rugby match there would have been a very different response.
Yes, it's an interesting counter point. I mean, I myself think that the "Marxist" left focuses too much on standard of living in purely economical terms, while ignoring other, less tangible, components of individual happiness - so I guess I am hoisted by my own petard here!
But I guess to reconcile these two thoughts, a lot of this seems to me about subjective dignity - and I also think a lot of Trumpism/Brexitism comes from that. I think people are more likely to consider themselves the middle class if they feel they are respected and their work makes sense - even if they earn a little. Conversely, if they are reduced to subsistence on food stamps and treated unfairly (whether by cops - as is the case with poor black males - or by upper middle class feminists - as is the case with poor white males), they turn to violence and are unhappy, even if objectively their biological needs are met in a greater degree than 50 years ago. I guess it all boils down to Maslov - as with my comment in the terrorism thread, you need a society that fulfils all the needs, not just the basic ones. I guess I am turning into a paternalistic conservative in my dotage!
Yeah and that point from a Goldsmiths piece I posted keeps coming back to me. New Labour poured a lot of money and genuinely revitalised large swathes of the country that voted Leave, but it wasn't (just) redistribution that mattered but recognition. They need a seat at the table not just money and addressing their material concerns.
Though that doesn't fully explain Brexit where many middle-class well to do Tory Shires voted Leave too (see Dorset where I'll be heading soon).
Also I think part of it is in the issue of white working class boys who are now the group in the UK with the lowest educational attainment - this was also mentioned by May in her first speech as PM. Minority ethnic communities' attainment has really shot up over the last two decades and one of the biggest reasons is simply that they live in London and for reasons no-one can quite work out London's education system has improved hugely especially for poor (often minority ethnic) students. So Bengali kids are doing far better than Pakistani kids because they're more likely to be in London than, say, Oldham. But the worst attainment is white working class boys and that is something that needs addressing - but I don't know how.
Edit: And, at least in the UK, I think it is something the left is aware of - see Owen Jones' book 'Chavs' on how that is the last community that is routinely demonised and the butt of jokes. Though I think we're getting better on that.
Quote from: Hamilcar on July 31, 2016, 01:18:47 PM
Quote from: Martinus on July 31, 2016, 01:03:21 PM
Quote from: Jacob on July 31, 2016, 11:21:21 AM
Quote from: celedhring on July 31, 2016, 10:57:21 AM
If the Alt-Right has now branded Valizadeh as an enemy I think it's pretty much a "whoever loses, we win" scenario.
Worth noting for those who are attracted to the alt right but are not straight white men; they'll turn on you eventually.
Yeah, it's a cesspool. But so is far left (including movements like BLM and Bernie Bros). I guess this makes Hillary a better choice to support, because she pisses off both sides of this quagmire, whereas Trump only pisses off one.
The alt right is just the logical conclusion of identity politics. If the only way to get status is being a victimized group, white people will go become a victimized group. Identity politics is the tiger shark tearing apart the intestines of Western society.
I disagree quite a bit here. This is not a new phenomenon. It's the same phenomenon that killed Emmet Till in the 1950's. The guys that strung up that kid were not reacting against "identify politics" they were simply furious that that Till had whistled at a white woman. It neatly dovetails into the term "kind and sensitive person" used by the Alt-Right today. The Alt-Right isn't trying to make itself into victims, though it makes feints in that direction to give the left fits, it's members simply fear a world where their supremacy is no longer recognized. If they truly wish to gain status as victimized group, then that can be arranged. I'm sure we can find a way to have them shot in the streets at the same rates as blacks.
Quote from: Jaron on July 31, 2016, 01:58:47 PM
I agree there is excess. I'm just arguing for some level of necessity of identity politics. I'm not justifying all of it.
What determines the dividing line between excess and necessity?