"Reparations" site invites white people to give free stuff to minorities

[Admiral Yi]

The difference, of course, is that within living memory most of the other groups besides white males have faced political and social persecution so maybe the defensiveness is warranted. I don't think its about white males wanting to be a victimized group for status, its more likely discomfort with losing dominant status.

That said, do I think some groups take it too far - like in this case? Yes.

But identity politics are rooted in necessity and survival.

What does the concept of cultural appropriation, just to take one example, have to do with survival?

[Jaron]

The difference, of course, is that within living memory most of the other groups besides white males have faced political and social persecution so maybe the defensiveness is warranted. I don't think its about white males wanting to be a victimized group for status, its more likely discomfort with losing dominant status.

That said, do I think some groups take it too far - like in this case? Yes.

But identity politics are rooted in necessity and survival.

What does the concept of cultural appropriation, just to take one example, have to do with survival?

I agree there is excess. I'm just arguing for some level of necessity of identity politics. I'm not justifying all of it.

[Hamilcar]

The difference, of course, is that within living memory most of the other groups besides white males have faced political and social persecution so maybe the defensiveness is warranted. I don't think its about white males wanting to be a victimized group for status, its more likely discomfort with losing dominant status.

That said, do I think some groups take it too far - like in this case? Yes.

But identity politics are rooted in necessity and survival.

What does the concept of cultural appropriation, just to take one example, have to do with survival?

"Cultural appropriation" is a concept so inane and harmful that people proposing it should be flogged in the streets. If you are so worried about faux Asian food, then I'll take back my enlightenment, quantum physics and even the postmodern philosophy which spawned this conflagration of idiocy.

[Martinus]

My main problem with the identity politics is that, when I watch the US society from aside, it seems to be underlying divisions rooted, ultimately, in class and wealth differences. Whether you are black or white, if you are poor, you will be treated by the police in a shitty manner, and you will be more likely to end up in prison than people in other social strata.

By shifting this dynamic to racial and ethnic politics it basically distracts the masses from the real thing - but I suppose this is how the elites want it. But then it make the masses vulnerable to someone like Trump - who, essentially, took the idiotic racial victimisation concept and applied it to the white male. So whilst I will obviously not enjoy the destruction of the Western elites due to this phenomenon (and mark my words, if Trump loses, there will come another, worse one, and another worse one and yet another worse one, during each elections cycle), there is a certain element of Schadenfreude involved.

[Sheilbh]

I think it's like many things a useful concept that used idiotically.

I've always thought and still do that all politics is and always has been identity politics, just the circle of who is able to participate is widening.

I think a lot of the stuff at universities is silly but that has always been the case with student politics. Conservative students in the 80s in the UK went around wearing 'Hang Nelson Mandela' t-shirts and chatting about how Enoch was right, they are now the same Tory MPs who are voting for gay marriage and are profoundly comfortable with Britain as a multi-racial society. Likewise (see John O'Farrell's 'Things Can Only Get Better') the same people who were backing physical force nationalism, raising money for the Sandinistas and active members of the Communist Party GB became exemplary New Labour Ministers (in some cases they even became Lib Dem Ministers ).

So yeah to a degree what they're doing in the Oxford Union and Harvard matters and will be mainstream in a few years, but chances are it'll look as dated as the Tory boys and the Spartists (he says watching with grim horror as a steely Tory woman takes over and the Labour Party collapse into far left factional infighting).

[Martinus]

My problem with identity politics is that it deprives people of individual agency instead reducing them to one trait (or a few, as the cross-sectional abomination would argue). This is the new wave of collectivism (which has been at least since the 18th century an ideology completely distinct from both liberalism and conservatism - but masquerading often as either) - and it is not less monstrous, dehumanising and unnatural than the previous ones.

[Sheilbh]

My main problem with the identity politics is that, when I watch the US society from aside, it seems to be underlying divisions rooted, ultimately, in class and wealth differences. Whether you are black or white, if you are poor, you will be treated by the police in a shitty manner, and you will be more likely to end up in prison than people in other social strata.

By shifting this dynamic to racial and ethnic politics it basically distracts the masses from the real thing - but I suppose this is how the elites want it. But then it make the masses vulnerable to someone like Trump - who, essentially, took the idiotic racial victimisation concept and applied it to the white male. So whilst I will obviously not enjoy the destruction of the Western elites due to this phenomenon (and mark my words, if Trump loses, there will come another, worse one, and another worse one and yet another worse one, during each elections cycle), there is a certain element of Schadenfreude involved.

This reminds me of Seumas Milne, Corbyn's chief of communications and strategy, who used to work for a Stalinist splinter paper of the CPGB. It was appropriately enough called 'Straight Left' but its argument was exactly that concerns about race, feminism and, especially, sexual orientation were a bourgeois distraction from the real class struggle. They used to hate people like the sainted Peter Tatchell or Harriet Harman for running campaigns that actually guaranteed what we'd consider basic rights looking back. And in a way it's a mirror image of 'what's wrong with Kansas' and the whole 'clinging to God, guns and religion' argument. But in neither case do I think it's some sort of false consciousness.

Also I mean even Theresa May as Home Secretary took the police to task for the different way black people are treated and mentioned it in her first speech as PM. Though I think you're partly right. Hillsborough and Orgreave for that matter would not happen if it was middle class men involved and it would not have taken as long as it has to even start to get the truth if it wasn't something that affected the working class men of Yorkshire and Liverpool. If there'd been dead after a crush at a rugby match there would have been a very different response.

[Sheilbh]

My problem with identity politics is that it deprives people of individual agency instead reducing them to one trait (or a few, as the cross-sectional abomination would argue). This is the new wave of collectivism (which has been at least since the 18th century an ideology completely distinct from both liberalism and conservatism - but masquerading often as either) - and it is not less monstrous, dehumanising and unnatural than the previous ones.

I think that exists in the US where you do get a sort of essentialism which is problematic and in machine politics - eg. the Tories with Sikh communities in some seats and Labour with Muslim communities in others.

But almost by definition identity is plural and I think a lot of writers about identity politics are fundamentally looking at it from a post-modern perspective of how identity is constructed - see women politicians and their voice: May, Thatcher, Clinton and I think Merkel. My problem with a lot of identity politics is actually the opposite of yours in that I'm not entirely convinced on liberalism and part of me thinks this is just individualism run amok. There is no cohesion which is lovely in a way but I don't think it's very difficult to maintain a society on that basis.

[Martinus]

My main problem with the identity politics is that, when I watch the US society from aside, it seems to be underlying divisions rooted, ultimately, in class and wealth differences. Whether you are black or white, if you are poor, you will be treated by the police in a shitty manner, and you will be more likely to end up in prison than people in other social strata.

By shifting this dynamic to racial and ethnic politics it basically distracts the masses from the real thing - but I suppose this is how the elites want it. But then it make the masses vulnerable to someone like Trump - who, essentially, took the idiotic racial victimisation concept and applied it to the white male. So whilst I will obviously not enjoy the destruction of the Western elites due to this phenomenon (and mark my words, if Trump loses, there will come another, worse one, and another worse one and yet another worse one, during each elections cycle), there is a certain element of Schadenfreude involved.

This reminds me of Seumas Milne, Corbyn's chief of communications and strategy, who used to work for a Stalinist splinter paper of the CPGB. It was appropriately enough called 'Straight Left' but its argument was exactly that concerns about race, feminism and, especially, sexual orientation were a bourgeois distraction from the real class struggle. They used to hate people like the sainted Peter Tatchell or Harriet Harman for running campaigns that actually guaranteed what we'd consider basic rights looking back. And in a way it's a mirror image of 'what's wrong with Kansas' and the whole 'clinging to God, guns and religion' argument. But in neither case do I think it's some sort of false consciousness.

Also I mean even Theresa May as Home Secretary took the police to task for the different way black people are treated and mentioned it in her first speech as PM. Though I think you're partly right. Hillsborough and Orgreave for that matter would not happen if it was middle class men involved and it would not have taken as long as it has to even start to get the truth if it wasn't something that affected the working class men of Yorkshire and Liverpool. If there'd been dead after a crush at a rugby match there would have been a very different response.

Yes, it's an interesting counter point. I mean, I myself think that the "Marxist" left focuses too much on standard of living in purely economical terms, while ignoring other, less tangible, components of individual happiness - so I guess I am hoisted by my own petard here!

But I guess to reconcile these two thoughts, a lot of this seems to me about subjective dignity - and I also think a lot of Trumpism/Brexitism comes from that. I think people are more likely to consider themselves the middle class if they feel they are respected and their work makes sense - even if they earn a little. Conversely, if they are reduced to subsistence on food stamps and treated unfairly (whether by cops - as is the case with poor black males - or by upper middle class feminists - as is the case with poor white males), they turn to violence and are unhappy, even if objectively their biological needs are met in a greater degree than 50 years ago. I guess it all boils down to Maslov - as with my comment in the terrorism thread, you need a society that fulfils all the needs, not just the basic ones. I guess I am turning into a paternalistic conservative in my dotage!

[Sheilbh]

Yeah and that point from a Goldsmiths piece I posted keeps coming back to me. New Labour poured a lot of money and genuinely revitalised large swathes of the country that voted Leave, but it wasn't (just) redistribution that mattered but recognition. They need a seat at the table not just money and addressing their material concerns.

Though that doesn't fully explain Brexit where many middle-class well to do Tory Shires voted Leave too (see Dorset where I'll be heading soon).

Also I think part of it is in the issue of white working class boys who are now the group in the UK with the lowest educational attainment - this was also mentioned by May in her first speech as PM. Minority ethnic communities' attainment has really shot up over the last two decades and one of the biggest reasons is simply that they live in London and for reasons no-one can quite work out London's education system has improved hugely especially for poor (often minority ethnic) students. So Bengali kids are doing far better than Pakistani kids because they're more likely to be in London than, say, Oldham. But the worst attainment is white working class boys and that is something that needs addressing - but I don't know how.

Edit: And, at least in the UK, I think it is something the left is aware of - see Owen Jones' book 'Chavs' on how that is the last community that is routinely demonised and the butt of jokes. Though I think we're getting better on that.

[Razgovory]

If the Alt-Right has now branded Valizadeh as an enemy I think it's pretty much a "whoever loses, we win" scenario.

Worth noting for those who are attracted to the alt right but are not straight white men; they'll turn on you eventually.

Yeah, it's a cesspool. But so is far left (including movements like BLM and Bernie Bros). I guess this makes Hillary a better choice to support, because she pisses off both sides of this quagmire, whereas Trump only pisses off one.

The alt right is just the logical conclusion of identity politics. If the only way to get status is being a victimized group, white people will go become a victimized group. Identity politics is the tiger shark tearing apart the intestines of Western society.

I disagree quite a bit here.  This is not a new phenomenon.  It's the same phenomenon that killed Emmet Till in the 1950's.  The guys that strung up that kid were not reacting against "identify politics" they were simply furious that that Till had whistled at a white woman.  It neatly dovetails into the term "kind and sensitive person" used by the Alt-Right today.  The Alt-Right isn't trying to make itself into victims, though it makes feints in that direction to give the left fits, it's members simply fear a world where their supremacy is no longer recognized.  If they truly wish to gain status as victimized group, then that can be arranged.  I'm sure we can find a way to have them shot in the streets at the same rates as blacks.

[Admiral Yi]

I agree there is excess. I'm just arguing for some level of necessity of identity politics. I'm not justifying all of it.

What determines the dividing line between excess and necessity?