I was sitting down to dinner with a 47-year-old colleague the other day, and he asked me what to do with his daughter. She has no goals. He and his wife always had to wake her up and drag her out of bed to go to high school, and in college, she waffled between majors until she had to follow through with Political Science. Now, she is freshly graduated and does not know what do, but perhaps go to graduate school "just because". He refuses to pay for it when she does not have a clear life objective.
Being a crazy youngster, I did not know what to say and was taken aback by the personal nature of the inquiry. In retrospect, I would have said something about the need to find purpose, perhaps through avenues of faith, family, love, and country. What can you tell me about motivating and directing directionless individuals from your experiences?
People have managed most of history without some sort of personal objective beyond getting some means of employment and pumping out a new generation to do the same. This whole 'finding yourself' bullshit is ridiculous. People end up pissing away tens of thousands of bucks at school or whatever looking for this mystical event horizon over which is 'completion'.
Fuck that Phil. Fuck. That.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 28, 2009, 10:02:09 PM
People have managed most of history without some sort of personal objective beyond getting some means of employment and pumping out a new generation to do the same. This whole 'finding yourself' bullshit is ridiculous. People end up pissing away tens of thousands of bucks at school or whatever looking for this mystical event horizon over which is 'completion'.
Fuck that Phil. Fuck. That.
Back to the situation. He thinks she should work and get some experience under her belt. Should he refuse to fund her grad school?
There seem to be many who piss away tens of thousands of bucks at school studying who knows what just because "that's what you're supposed to do", and then come out unemployed.
<monkeybutt/Neil>
Beat them.
</mbN>
Quote from: Phillip V on June 28, 2009, 10:06:24 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 28, 2009, 10:02:09 PM
People have managed most of history without some sort of personal objective beyond getting some means of employment and pumping out a new generation to do the same. This whole 'finding yourself' bullshit is ridiculous. People end up pissing away tens of thousands of bucks at school or whatever looking for this mystical event horizon over which is 'completion'.
Fuck that Phil. Fuck. That.
Back to the situation. He thinks she should work and get some experience under her belt. Should he refuse to fund her grad school?
There seem to be many who piss away tens of thousands of bucks at school studying who knows what just because "that's what you're supposed to do", and then come out unemployed.
Yes. I know some of them. Two hundred grand later they are still unemployed. Why should he pay for college anyway? The girl wants to go she can get a loan and a job just like so many other people. She's a friggin adult. I'm assuming he helped her out with her undergrad degree, both for tuition and other expenses, so she is in her early twenties?
Unless she was gonna go into a program that was in demand or had some chance of paying off so she could pay some of that enormous amount of money back to her parents, either directly or by paying for a decent nursing home when they are old and senile i can't imagine why they should feel remotely obligated to pay for anything.
Funding her graduate school is fine, so long as it is an area that is actually in demand, e.g. law, medicine etc.
But how to get her to be motivated is another thing. I have been drilled before I went to school that the purpose of life is to survive. To survive I need food. To buy food I need money. To make money I need a job. To get a job I need to graduate university. To get into a university I need to finish secondary school, and before that primary school. To advance I need good grades. That's why I need to study for that exam. Anything that doesn't contribute to this grand plan is an utter waste of time.
Just before I graduated, I spent most of the time trying to get a job. The urgency is compounded by the following realizations -
1. Every day not spent working represents a day of lost revenue.
2. The earlier I start making and saving money, the more time there will be for compound interest to work its magic.
3. For every day spent unemployed, I become less marketable.
The old tricks work best. Fear and greed. These are my motivators. Fear of starving on the streets. Fear of not having food on my table, or roof over my head. Greed of money. Knowing my parents, I have absolutely no illusion that I won't physically survive unless I find a job. That motivated me to find a job before I graduated. And I did.
To motivate her, they gotta drill it into her head day after day that no job=no food=death, and to make the threat seriously.
God, you're a worthless piece of coolie shit, Phillip.
What's up j-dawg? Still working at that payment processing place?
No, they downsized. :P
Where you at now?
Her objective should be to pout until daddy agrees to send her to graduate school. The day this strategy stops working is the day she should begin looking for a husband.
I'm a consultant.
Is she hot?
With her lack of motivation, it's a 100% guarantee she smokes more weed than a neo-Rastafarian thrallbeast.
Quote from: Phillip V on June 28, 2009, 10:06:24 PM
Back to the situation. He thinks she should work and get some experience under her belt.
He is correct.
QuoteShould he refuse to fund her grad school?
Yes
A job teaches a whole lotta things that school cannot. I have always liked the (largely mythical)* Aussie/Kiwi concept of the "walkabout year" between high school and college.
* I say "largely" because I know it exists: my main squeeze in London was a Kiwi on walkabout.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 28, 2009, 10:37:19 PM
Funding her graduate school is fine, so long as it is an area that is actually in demand, e.g. law, medicine etc.
But how to get her to be motivated is another thing. I have been drilled before I went to school that the purpose of life is to survive. To survive I need food. To buy food I need money. To make money I need a job. To get a job I need to graduate university. To get into a university I need to finish secondary school, and before that primary school. To advance I need good grades. That's why I need to study for that exam. Anything that doesn't contribute to this grand plan is an utter waste of time.
Just before I graduated, I spent most of the time trying to get a job. The urgency is compounded by the following realizations -
1. Every day not spent working represents a day of lost revenue.
2. The earlier I start making and saving money, the more time there will be for compound interest to work its magic.
3. For every day spent unemployed, I become less marketable.
The old tricks work best. Fear and greed. These are my motivators. Fear of starving on the streets. Fear of not having food on my table, or roof over my head. Greed of money. Knowing my parents, I have absolutely no illusion that I won't physically survive unless I find a job. That motivated me to find a job before I graduated. And I did.
To motivate her, they gotta drill it into her head day after day that no job=no food=death, and to make the threat seriously.
Not everybody's will needs to be broken while still in the womb, Deng.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 28, 2009, 11:31:43 PM
Her objective should be to pout until daddy agrees to send her to graduate school. The day this strategy stops working is the day she should begin looking for a husband.
If she decides to go the other route of finding a rich husband (which is a perfectly fine strategy in itself), she should work toward that goal diligently.
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 29, 2009, 01:00:53 AM
Not everybody's will needs to be broken while still in the womb, Deng.
You are right. If you happen to be born rich, that is.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 01:15:33 AM
If she decides to go the other route of finding a rich husband (which is a perfectly fine strategy in itself), she should work toward that goal diligently.
Graduate school might be a good place to find one. Assuming she ends up with a law or business student and not hippie philosopher. Philip needs to facebook stalk some pics for us to decide.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 29, 2009, 01:38:52 AM
Graduate school might be a good place to find one. Assuming she ends up with a law or business student and not hippie philosopher. Philip needs to facebook stalk some pics for us to decide.
Sorry. I do not ask about or even think about checking out the daughters of people I work with and write up my evaluations/rewards.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 01:22:59 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on June 29, 2009, 01:00:53 AM
Not everybody's will needs to be broken while still in the womb, Deng.
You are right. If you happen to be born rich, that is.
Or, better yet, of Anglo-Saxon decent.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 28, 2009, 10:37:19 PM
Funding her graduate school is fine, so long as it is an area that is actually in demand, e.g. law, medicine etc.
But how to get her to be motivated is another thing. I have been drilled before I went to school that the purpose of life is to survive. To survive I need food. To buy food I need money. To make money I need a job. To get a job I need to graduate university. To get into a university I need to finish secondary school, and before that primary school. To advance I need good grades. That's why I need to study for that exam. Anything that doesn't contribute to this grand plan is an utter waste of time.
Just before I graduated, I spent most of the time trying to get a job. The urgency is compounded by the following realizations -
1. Every day not spent working represents a day of lost revenue.
2. The earlier I start making and saving money, the more time there will be for compound interest to work its magic.
3. For every day spent unemployed, I become less marketable.
The old tricks work best. Fear and greed. These are my motivators. Fear of starving on the streets. Fear of not having food on my table, or roof over my head. Greed of money. Knowing my parents, I have absolutely no illusion that I won't physically survive unless I find a job. That motivated me to find a job before I graduated. And I did.
To motivate her, they gotta drill it into her head day after day that no job=no food=death, and to make the threat seriously.
I sincerely hope you will die of a heart attack on your last day before retirement.
What is her father's job btw? What is the mother's? People often seem to have unrealistic expectations of their children, compared to their own achievements.
A question to Mono, Wag and all the others that talk about having a clear plan and a path, and optimizing their educational choices by whatever is "in demand" etc.
Are you happy in your life? Are you satisfied? Fulfilled? Or do you wake up in the morning considering whether to go to another day of drudgery or just put a bullet in your brain and be done with all of it?
Just curious.
That's a fair question. I've ended up doing a job that pays well*, but I didn't really go for that.
* It actually pays crap when taking into account people over 40 or civil service, but most young people make even less than I do.
Quote from: Martinus on June 29, 2009, 04:02:02 AM
A question to Mono, Wag and all the others that talk about having a clear plan and a path, and optimizing their educational choices by whatever is "in demand" etc.
Are you happy in your life? Are you satisfied? Fulfilled? Or do you wake up in the morning considering whether to go to another day of drudgery or just put a bullet in your brain and be done with all of it?
Just curious.
Speaks the lawyer who works in a large firm :P
Quote from: grumbler on June 29, 2009, 12:08:02 AMI have always liked the (largely mythical)* Aussie/Kiwi concept of the "walkabout year" between high school and college.
* I say "largely" because I know it exists: my main squeeze in London was a Kiwi on walkabout.
It's quite popular in the UK too, as a gap year. I believe it's also huge in Israel. There they travel around South America and South-East Asia (because the Shekel's not worth much) after their time in the army. It was explained to me as a good way of spending your IDF pay and, apparently, if you're out of the country you can only be called up in national crises :lol:
The gap year concept seems popular with everyone except Americans.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 29, 2009, 05:06:16 AM
The gap year concept seems popular with everyone except Americans.
I don't think it is popular in Hong Kong or China. Everyone I know go straight from secondary school to university. Employers ask very tough questions for people with significant gaps in their resume. Parents too. They fund their children's education in the hope that they will find jobs and in turn support the family. They won't tolerate supporting their children while they party for a year.
Quote from: Martinus on June 29, 2009, 03:57:51 AM
I sincerely hope you will die of a heart attack on your last day before retirement.
That happened to my grandfather. :mad:
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 05:09:04 AMThey won't tolerate supporting their children while they party for a year.
Many will get jobs to support themselves abroad, or have saved up enough already.
In Hong Kong, we only have "early admission", not "gap year". Most people complete 13 years of schooling before going to unversity. But the best and the brightest fight tooth and nail for the several hundred places that allow students to be admitted after the 12th year. It is considered a great honour.
Quote from: Caliga on June 29, 2009, 05:11:10 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 29, 2009, 03:57:51 AM
I sincerely hope you will die of a heart attack on your last day before retirement.
That happened to my grandfather. :mad:
He is so insensitive. :angry:
A friend of mine lost his father that way a couple of weeks ago.
He retired, came to help them renovate their appartment and 4 days after his retirement he suffered massive cardiac arrest and that was that.
My grandfather died of a heart attack less than an hour after he retired, back in 1980. :(
He came home from his last day of work, got undressed, and settled in to watch a Flyers game on TV upstairs while my grandmother was doing something or other downstairs. She went upstairs a short while later to get changed for his retirement dinner, and found him dead in a chair with the game still on.
Quote from: Caliga on June 29, 2009, 05:44:05 AM
My grandfather died of a heart attack less than an hour after he retired, back in 1980. :(
He came home from his last day of work, got undressed, and settled in to watch a Flyers game on TV upstairs while my grandmother was doing something or other downstairs. She went upstairs a short while later to get changed for his retirement dinner, and found him dead in a chair with the game still on.
You know, I recall the feeling I had when I graduated from high school. A general sense of loss and lack of direction, coupled with the realization that a part of my life was over and that I would probably never see most of those people I spent the last 12 years with again. It was pretty unsettling.
I can only imagine what it feels like for a person who's worked hard his entire life, perhaps at the same workplace for the previous 40 years and suddenly doesn't have anywhere to go in the morning.
(Possibly added to this, the realization that he will now have to listen to his nagging wife 24/7. ;) )
Quote from: Martinus on June 29, 2009, 04:02:02 AM
A question to Mono, Wag and all the others that talk about having a clear plan and a path, and optimizing their educational choices by whatever is "in demand" etc.
Are you happy in your life? Are you satisfied? Fulfilled? Or do you wake up in the morning considering whether to go to another day of drudgery or just put a bullet in your brain and be done with all of it?
Just curious.
I have no clear path. That's why I value it in others Marty. ;)
Quote from: Martinus on June 29, 2009, 04:02:02 AM
A question to Mono, Wag and all the others that talk about having a clear plan and a path, and optimizing their educational choices by whatever is "in demand" etc.
Are you happy in your life? Are you satisfied? Fulfilled? Or do you wake up in the morning considering whether to go to another day of drudgery or just put a bullet in your brain and be done with all of it?
Just curious.
Yeah, right. :lol:
Just "curious".
There are no statements in that post.
Only questions.
...
:lol:
Quote from: Slargos on June 29, 2009, 05:56:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 29, 2009, 04:02:02 AM
A question to Mono, Wag and all the others that talk about having a clear plan and a path, and optimizing their educational choices by whatever is "in demand" etc.
Are you happy in your life? Are you satisfied? Fulfilled? Or do you wake up in the morning considering whether to go to another day of drudgery or just put a bullet in your brain and be done with all of it?
Just curious.
Yeah, right. :lol:
Just "curious".
There are no statements in that post.
Only questions.
...
:lol:
What I don't understand is - is no plan better than having a plan? Is doing what is "not in demand" better than doing what is "in demand"? Is having no idea of what to do in life better than having an idea, even if that idea is not very grand?
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 06:00:09 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 29, 2009, 05:56:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 29, 2009, 04:02:02 AM
A question to Mono, Wag and all the others that talk about having a clear plan and a path, and optimizing their educational choices by whatever is "in demand" etc.
Are you happy in your life? Are you satisfied? Fulfilled? Or do you wake up in the morning considering whether to go to another day of drudgery or just put a bullet in your brain and be done with all of it?
Just curious.
Yeah, right. :lol:
Just "curious".
There are no statements in that post.
Only questions.
...
:lol:
What I don't understand is - is no plan better than having a plan? Is doing what is "not in demand" better than doing what is "in demand"? Is having no idea of what to do in life better than having an idea, even if that idea is not very grand?
Sometimes, my dear Chinaman..
It is better to wander than to walk.
All the best laid plans lead to hell.
An idea for the ages.
Quote from: Jaron on June 29, 2009, 06:40:48 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 06:00:09 AM
Quote from: Slargos on June 29, 2009, 05:56:12 AM
Quote from: Martinus on June 29, 2009, 04:02:02 AM
A question to Mono, Wag and all the others that talk about having a clear plan and a path, and optimizing their educational choices by whatever is "in demand" etc.
Are you happy in your life? Are you satisfied? Fulfilled? Or do you wake up in the morning considering whether to go to another day of drudgery or just put a bullet in your brain and be done with all of it?
Just curious.
Yeah, right. :lol:
Just "curious".
There are no statements in that post.
Only questions.
...
:lol:
What I don't understand is - is no plan better than having a plan? Is doing what is "not in demand" better than doing what is "in demand"? Is having no idea of what to do in life better than having an idea, even if that idea is not very grand?
Sometimes, my dear Chinaman..
It is better to wander than to walk.
All the best laid plans lead to hell.
An idea for the ages.
Cease thy Monny baiting.
Maybe the problem is that we, everyone of us, are supposed to figure out what we are SUPPOSED to do. There is some magical career path, something out there that is going to click within us it is all better.
Well, working is a way of earning money to survive, sometimes it is the shits, sometimes not so much. The problem of waiting until we find that magic thing is that it is not real for many people. Have go serve fries for a while, or bus tables, or work in an old-folks home...surviving is a wonderful way to motivate.
Hey he should be happy she at last graduated from college.
Quote from: Jaron on June 29, 2009, 06:40:48 AM
Sometimes, my dear Chinaman..
It is better to wander than to walk.
All the best laid plans lead to hell.
An idea for the ages.
I understand the need to be flexible. I was trained as an accountant. I switched career path before trying my luck in any accounting firm.
-I want a job and I am prepared to work in these 15 fields is ok.
-I don't know what I want to do and I am just going to party/stay home/surf the net all day is not ok.
Quote from: Phillip V on June 28, 2009, 09:52:33 PM
I was sitting down to dinner with a 47-year-old colleague the other day, and he asked me what to do with his daughter. She has no goals. He and his wife always had to wake her up and drag her out of bed to go to high school, and in college, she waffled between majors until she had to follow through with Political Science. Now, she is freshly graduated and does not know what do, but perhaps go to graduate school "just because". He refuses to pay for it when she does not have a clear life objective.
Haven't read the thread but this strikes me as the description of a lot of the people I knew going through school. I was always just a bit suspicious of the folks that knew exactly what they wanted to do. I thought it was more like their parents knew exactly what they wanted their kids to do and the kids went along with it.
In other words, if someone has a clear life objective at that age, it is likely not their own objective.
Quote from: PDH on June 29, 2009, 09:34:30 AM
...surviving is a wonderful way to motivate.
Agreed. Working on a sod farm gave me all the motivation I needed to figure out a better way to survive.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 09:58:06 AM
Agreed. Working on a sod farm gave me all the motivation I needed to figure out a better way to survive.
For me it was hauling 2x12 joists all day by hand on a house site halfway up a steep hill...
Quote from: PDH on June 29, 2009, 10:07:36 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 09:58:06 AM
Agreed. Working on a sod farm gave me all the motivation I needed to figure out a better way to survive.
For me it was hauling 2x12 joists all day by hand on a house site halfway up a steep hill...
It was my lousy relationship with my parents, and my general lack of friends. I was on my own, entirely. There was nothing to fall back on if I failed.
Quote from: PDH on June 29, 2009, 10:07:36 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 09:58:06 AM
Agreed. Working on a sod farm gave me all the motivation I needed to figure out a better way to survive.
For me it was hauling 2x12 joists all day by hand on a house site halfway up a steep hill...
I mopped floors in a nursing home. The sights and smells were a strong motivator.
Some people don't really get in gear until that light bulb goes off and they decide they actually want to decide their own fate rather than just drifting along on whatever tracks life lays down for them. Generally, I think it's a mistake to do anything like college or whatever before that happens. The more you prepare for an aimless life, the farther you have to backtrack once you finally get started.
It is a huge mistake to start university any time after 19. University degree is like a game card that increases your experience gained for each subsequent level. It is the bonus in life that you pick as soon as you can. Because chances are the degree increases your earning power. Someone who starts university at 18, finishes at 21, then immediately start working full time will tend to earn more money over his entire life than anyone who fail to adhere to this schedule.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 10:33:39 AMSomeone who starts university at 18, finishes at 21, then immediately start working full time will tend to earn more money over his entire life than anyone who fail to adhere to this schedule.
:cool:
Quote from: Slargos on June 29, 2009, 05:41:10 AM
A friend of mine lost his father that way a couple of weeks ago.
He retired, came to help them renovate their apartment and 4 days after his retirement he suffered massive cardiac arrest and that was that.
How convienent! Some people have the decency to just turn off when their work is done. It is the best possible solution from an economic standpoint.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 09:58:06 AM
Quote from: PDH on June 29, 2009, 09:34:30 AM
...surviving is a wonderful way to motivate.
Agreed. Working on a sod farm gave me all the motivation I needed to figure out a better way to survive.
You sodded off? ;)
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 10:33:39 AM
It is a huge mistake to start university any time after 19. University degree is like a game card that increases your experience gained for each subsequent level. It is the bonus in life that you pick as soon as you can. Because chances are the degree increases your earning power. Someone who starts university at 18, finishes at 21, then immediately start working full time will tend to earn more money over his entire life than anyone who fail to adhere to this schedule.
It's only a mistake if the only thing one is concerned with in life is how much money they make.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 29, 2009, 11:00:32 AM
It's only a mistake if the only thing one is concerned with in life is how much money they make.
You can also work full time while going to school in the US and not miss any of that precious precious money Mono speaks of.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 29, 2009, 10:16:25 AM
I mopped floors in a nursing home. The sights and smells were a strong motivator.
But in the end, you are still on track to end up back there. :(
Quote from: alfred russel on June 29, 2009, 11:06:20 AM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 29, 2009, 10:16:25 AM
I mopped floors in a nursing home. The sights and smells were a strong motivator.
But in the end, you are still on track to end up back there. :(
I plan to stop eating healthy in about 15 years. I'll go down the way many a man before has: eating a double cheese bacon burger.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 10:33:39 AM
It is a huge mistake to start university any time after 19. University degree is like a game card that increases your experience gained for each subsequent level. It is the bonus in life that you pick as soon as you can. Because chances are the degree increases your earning power. Someone who starts university at 18, finishes at 21, then immediately start working full time will tend to earn more money over his entire life than anyone who fail to adhere to this schedule.
I don't think your generalization is correct - at least not for Germany.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 29, 2009, 11:12:12 AMI plan to stop eating healthy in about 15 years. I'll go down the way many a man before has: eating a double cheese bacon burger.
Just like my Grandpa. A pack of cigarettes daily + cigars + steak + no exercise = death at 60 = WIN.
for most North Americans, the gap year is usually called "freshman year."
education is wasted on the young. exhibit A: see any typical undergrad.
it's not about education and marks per se, it's about skills and credentials, character and knowing people.
the only constant is change. goals obviously change too.
money is really not that important, but it sure is useful. as I have often said, being poor
is very affordable and well within most people's budgets.
... one life, one love, may as well enjoy your time here.
I am the anti-mono. more thoughts to come.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 10:33:39 AM
It is a huge mistake to start university any time after 19. University degree is like a game card that increases your experience gained for each subsequent level. It is the bonus in life that you pick as soon as you can. Because chances are the degree increases your earning power. Someone who starts university at 18, finishes at 21, then immediately start working full time will tend to earn more money over his entire life than anyone who fail to adhere to this schedule.
That's not true here. It used to be, then every parent pushed his or her kids to get a degree. And now plumbers or electricians can easily make as much as a law graduate, with much better hours and years before a lawyer starts making any money.
There are still useful degrees. For example, the Bachelor of Engineering I took pretty much guarantees a job. But I'm certainly no millionaire, and my schedule doesn't let me any spare time before 19:30.
If I were 18 again I'd pass on college and study for a civil service post. I could have easily paid for a flat by now while scratching my belly all day.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 29, 2009, 05:06:16 AM
The gap year concept seems popular with everyone except Americans.
well except those annoying ones "backpacking through Europe"
I think higher ed is one giant bubble waiting to explode. Because it is filled with liquid dynamite.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on June 29, 2009, 12:13:50 PM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 29, 2009, 05:06:16 AM
The gap year concept seems popular with everyone except Americans.
well except those annoying ones "backpacking through Europe"
Even that is better for you than spending a year failing college because you feel like you have to hurry.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 29, 2009, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on June 29, 2009, 12:13:50 PM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 29, 2009, 05:06:16 AM
The gap year concept seems popular with everyone except Americans.
well except those annoying ones "backpacking through Europe"
Even that is better for you than spending a year failing college because you feel like you have to hurry.
I'll admit that that does sound pretty cool. I remember meeting some of them when I was in Syria who had started in London and were going to try to end up in Johannesburg.
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 29, 2009, 12:29:23 PM
I think higher ed is one giant bubble waiting to explode. Because it is filled with liquid dynamite.
Correct.
I didn't know what the fuck I wanted to do after high school. So I got a prestigious MSc in physics/engineering and did military service. Then I got a job.
Quote from: Martinus on June 29, 2009, 03:59:36 AM
What is her father's job btw? What is the mother's? People often seem to have unrealistic expectations of their children, compared to their own achievements.
No idea about the mother.
Father is an Army Reserve Chief Warrant Officer 3 and Network Administrator at Turkey Hill Dairy. Runs faster than me.
Quote from: Caliga on June 29, 2009, 12:41:48 PM
Quote from: Darth Wagtaros on June 29, 2009, 12:29:23 PM
I think higher ed is one giant bubble waiting to explode. Because it is filled with liquid dynamite.
Correct.
Disagree. We're gradually moving the end of childhood to 21, so we need to store these kids somewhere.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb link=topic=1371.msg62764#msg62764well except those annoying ones "backpacking through Europe"
Hey!
I would be a lot more annoying if I followed Mono's advice and went straight into law school after undergrad.
Quote from: Phillip V on June 29, 2009, 01:15:22 PM
Turkey Hill Dairy.
:cool: My dad's sister lives like 2 miles from their HQ in Pennsylvania.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 10:33:39 AM
It is a huge mistake to start university any time after 19. University degree is like a game card that increases your experience gained for each subsequent level. It is the bonus in life that you pick as soon as you can. Because chances are the degree increases your earning power. Someone who starts university at 18, finishes at 21, then immediately start working full time will tend to earn more money over his entire life than anyone who fail to adhere to this schedule.
I make more money then anyone I know who went through university right after high school. I used to hire those types from time to time. :P However, I stopped that practice when I realized that lawyers who hadnt experienced anything outside of school made terrible lawyers.
My boss has a similar policy. He prefers engineers with some degree of vocational training or experience.
Quote from: Iormlund on June 29, 2009, 02:31:20 PM
My boss has a similar policy. He prefers engineers with some degree of vocational training or experience.
Anybody sensible would. :mellow:
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 01:55:17 PM
I realized that lawyers who hadnt experienced anything outside of school made terrible lawyers.
:mad:
Quote from: Barrister on June 29, 2009, 02:50:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 01:55:17 PM
I realized that lawyers who hadnt experienced anything outside of school made terrible lawyers.
:mad:
Making a career out of prosecuting indians doesn't count. That is like a white man in Mississippi claiming to be a good lawyer in the 1920s based on his negro conviction rate.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 10:33:39 AM
Someone who starts university at 18, finishes at 21, then immediately start working full time will tend to earn more money over his entire life than anyone who fail to adhere to this schedule.
I'm so screwed, I started at 17. :Embarrass:
Quote from: garbon on June 29, 2009, 02:53:17 PM
I'm so screwed, I started at 17. :Embarrass:
You will make money from that EU2 expansion you are making.
Quote from: Barrister on June 29, 2009, 02:50:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 01:55:17 PM
I realized that lawyers who hadnt experienced anything outside of school made terrible lawyers.
:mad:
You are actually a good example of why kids shouldnt be making life choices at 19. Your choice of undergraduate work doesnt exactly jump out as being entirely relevant to what you do now.
Quote from: Caliga on June 29, 2009, 02:46:54 PM
Anybody sensible would. :mellow:
It's fairly unusual over here. Most parents push their children to attend high school and go straight to uni (the "winners" path) instead of a vocational training center (the "losers" path). So it is relatively uncommon to see an engineer that has been formally trained as an electrician or mechanic. And our universities lack integration into the business world, thus the students rarely get their hands dirty.
So basically most graduates have pretty much no idea of how the real world works.
Quote from: garbon on June 29, 2009, 02:53:17 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 10:33:39 AM
Someone who starts university at 18, finishes at 21, then immediately start working full time will tend to earn more money over his entire life than anyone who fail to adhere to this schedule.
I'm so screwed, I started at 17. :Embarrass:
I didn't go to University. What will I do? :cry:
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 29, 2009, 03:07:39 PM
I didn't go to University. What will I do? :cry:
Don't feed him. :mad:
I was chatting up two freshman undergrad girls who told me they were English majors, so I tapped into literature mode, but they did not even know who the Bronte sisters or F. Scott Fitzgerald were. Why did you pick English? "Just because..."
I then explained credit default swaps to a puzzled sophomore economics major. She asked me what business major I was. I said history, but I read a newspaper from time to time, especially when there is an "economic crisis".
Meanwhile, a senior economics major could not provide opinion on our state's increase of the minimum wage at the time.
Thus, my biggest frustration with university has been the lack of real-world connection with what is studied. So, I left. :lol:
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 03:06:32 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 29, 2009, 02:50:51 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 01:55:17 PM
I realized that lawyers who hadnt experienced anything outside of school made terrible lawyers.
:mad:
You are actually a good example of why kids shouldnt be making life choices at 19. Your choice of undergraduate work doesnt exactly jump out as being entirely relevant to what you do now.
Like garbon, I started university when I was 17. :lol:
Quote from: Barrister on June 29, 2009, 05:11:12 PM
Like garbon, I started university when I was 17. :lol:
It is worse then I suspected then.
I too started at 17. :cool:
Quote from: Caliga on June 29, 2009, 05:26:43 PM
I too started at 17. :cool:
You mean you graduated before you could legally drink. :(
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 05:34:23 PM
You mean you graduated before you could legally drink. :(
I was 21 when I graduated.
Is the ban actually enforced?
Pretty much everyone here had gotten drunk before 16 (legal age when I was young, now it's 18). A teenage weekend without massive overt drinking seems so alien to me ... I was a teetotaler at the time but everyone else drank in Fridays and Saturdays.
Quote from: Iormlund on June 29, 2009, 05:57:51 PM
Is the ban actually enforced?
Pretty much everyone here had gotten drunk before 16 (legal age when I was young, now it's 18). A teenage weekend without massive overt drinking seems so alien to me ... I was a teetotaler at the time but everyone else drunk in Fridays and Saturdays.
Not really - I saw plenty of booze being consumed on US university campuses.
Quote from: Iormlund on June 29, 2009, 05:57:51 PM
Is the ban actually enforced?
Pretty much everyone here had gotten drunk before 16 (legal age when I was young, now it's 18). A teenage weekend without massive overt drinking seems so alien to me ... I was a teetotaler at the time but everyone else drunk in Fridays and Saturdays.
Yes. When I was in high school alcohol was hard to come by, some people drank but most did not. I can remember a friend who would hang out in the parking lot of supermarkets, trying to get people to buy alcohol for him, sometimes it worked, but not always. It got much, much easier in college, but there was still the danger of a citation for underage drinking, which I and many others I knew got, and bars were out of the question without a decent fake ID.
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 29, 2009, 06:11:00 PMYes. When I was in high school alcohol was hard to come by, some people drank but most did not. I can remember a friend who would hang out in the parking lot of supermarkets, trying to get people to buy alcohol for him, sometimes it worked, but not always. It got much, much easier in college, but there was still the danger of a citation for underage drinking, which I and many others I knew got, and bars were out of the question without a decent fake ID.
In Boston, it was very much hit and miss in terms of which bars carded and which didn't. If they checked IDs and you didn't have one, they wouldn't serve you booze but they never kicked you out or anything (in my experience). I had the best luck in terms of not getting carded at a place called Crossroads Irish Pub, which (maybe not coincidentally) Joe Kennedy used to own. :cool:
Quote from: Caliga on June 29, 2009, 06:17:21 PM
Same (though barely).
Sadly the first time I personally ordered a drink was in the UK, so it didn't matter much. :(
Now that I think about it there was one place that rarely carded, the cafe in the International House. Most of the staff were foreign students, and they thought our drinking laws were ridiculous. At most would just require one person at the table to have an ID to buy with. Most everywhere else started checking ID at the door at night.
Quote from: Caliga on June 29, 2009, 05:26:43 PM
I too started at 17. :cool:
Same here. My 21st birthday was spent studying for my last set of finals.
I started at 18, because I was born in November :weep:
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 29, 2009, 01:55:17 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 10:33:39 AM
It is a huge mistake to start university any time after 19. University degree is like a game card that increases your experience gained for each subsequent level. It is the bonus in life that you pick as soon as you can. Because chances are the degree increases your earning power. Someone who starts university at 18, finishes at 21, then immediately start working full time will tend to earn more money over his entire life than anyone who fail to adhere to this schedule.
I make more money then anyone I know who went through university right after high school. I used to hire those types from time to time. :P However, I stopped that practice when I realized that lawyers who hadnt experienced anything outside of school made terrible lawyers.
The majority of civil service recruits in Hong Kong are 21/22 year olds with no work experience at all. They tried recruiting people with some experience (and pay them a higher starting salary). Generally people in their late 20s and early 30s. It doesn't work. These guys leave in droves. They hire like 10 of these and after one year only two are left. All the effort and money is wasted and they are blasted by Audit. After a few of these experiments they are back to hiring fresh grads.
Quote from: garbon on June 29, 2009, 02:53:17 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 10:33:39 AM
Someone who starts university at 18, finishes at 21, then immediately start working full time will tend to earn more money over his entire life than anyone who fail to adhere to this schedule.
I'm so screwed, I started at 17. :Embarrass:
slacker, what took you so long.
Quote from: Iormlund on June 29, 2009, 05:57:51 PM
Is the ban actually enforced?
Pretty much everyone here had gotten drunk before 16 (legal age when I was young, now it's 18). A teenage weekend without massive overt drinking seems so alien to me ... I was a teetotaler at the time but everyone else drank in Fridays and Saturdays.
I am 33 years old and I still have not experienced this feeling that you would describe as "drunk".
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 07:15:45 PM
I started at 18, because I was born in November :weep:
I was born in November.
Quote from: garbon on June 29, 2009, 07:53:52 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 07:15:45 PM
I started at 18, because I was born in November :weep:
I was born in November.
You also went to Stanford, superman.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 29, 2009, 08:24:17 PM
superman.
Err, no. Thanks for the flattery though. :)
Quote from: Caliga on June 29, 2009, 06:18:51 PM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 29, 2009, 06:11:00 PMYes. When I was in high school alcohol was hard to come by, some people drank but most did not. I can remember a friend who would hang out in the parking lot of supermarkets, trying to get people to buy alcohol for him, sometimes it worked, but not always. It got much, much easier in college, but there was still the danger of a citation for underage drinking, which I and many others I knew got, and bars were out of the question without a decent fake ID.
In Boston, it was very much hit and miss in terms of which bars carded and which didn't. If they checked IDs and you didn't have one, they wouldn't serve you booze but they never kicked you out or anything (in my experience). I had the best luck in terms of not getting carded at a place called Crossroads Irish Pub, which (maybe not coincidentally) Joe Kennedy used to own. :cool:
Big crackdowns on that now. They send in agent-provacatuers and drop mega fines on any stores or bars that don't card.
It may be related to the massive increase in speed traps/revenue enhancement strategies cities and towns and New England state governments have been working on the past few months.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on June 29, 2009, 12:30:24 PM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on June 29, 2009, 12:13:50 PM
Quote from: DisturbedPervert on June 29, 2009, 05:06:16 AM
The gap year concept seems popular with everyone except Americans.
well except those annoying ones "backpacking through Europe"
Even that is better for you than spending a year failing college because you feel like you have to hurry.
1st year is there specifically as a year to party your face off iirc... All I "learned" in my first year was how to party.
seriously though I don't feel like there is any reason to feel bad taking time off between school and Uni, nor should you feel bad if you dive in and end up with a degree faster than most of the folks you know, or going back later. I have several friends who have gone back and got their teaching credentials 20 years later. They seem to be coping well.
It shouldn't matter when you go to school, or whether you take some time to work for a few (or 20-30) years.
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on June 30, 2009, 11:27:48 AM
1st year is there specifically as a year to party your face off iirc... All I "learned" in my first year was how to party.
This is one of the best reasons why 17-18 year old kids should not dive into University without having at least some idea of what they wanted to do. I saw a bunch of kids who basically just drifted because they didnt want to be there. They went because their parents said they had to.
The experience was a complete waste of time for the kids and of expense for the parents. As you say the only thing the kids learned was how to drink. But worse then that once they did get some idea of what they really wanted to be, their low GPAs meant they couldnt actually get accepted into the courses of study they needed.
If my boys dont know what they want to do after high school they can work/travel for a year or two to figure things out.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 30, 2009, 11:37:06 AM
Quote from: BuddhaRhubarb on June 30, 2009, 11:27:48 AM
1st year is there specifically as a year to party your face off iirc... All I "learned" in my first year was how to party.
This is one of the best reasons why 17-18 year old kids should not dive into University without having at least some idea of what they wanted to do. I saw a bunch of kids who basically just drifted because they didnt want to be there. They went because their parents said they had to.
The experience was a complete waste of time for the kids and of expense for the parents. As you say the only thing the kids learned was how to drink. But worse then that once they did get some idea of what they really wanted to be, their low GPAs meant they couldnt actually get accepted into the courses of study they needed.
If my boys dont know what they want to do after high school they can work/travel for a year or two to figure things out.
sure. Though NOBODY except me paid my way at University. I also worked pretty much fulltime the whole 6 years it took to get my "useless" BA. I partied my face off the entire time I was there, still managed reasonable grades, and fulltime work, theatre, film volunteering, helped published a poetry journal, etc.
It's what you make of the time in Uni. The actual schoolwork doesn't have to be some be all end all of "what I'm doing with my future".
I don't regret going at 17 in the least. Everyone is different though and should make up their own minds.
When I was in university, the most frustrating thing was that everybody told me to slow down. Parents, professors, friends, counsellors. They all gave murderous advice. Do what you enjoy. See the world. Experience different things. Take your time.
I said to hell with all of you. I am going to take the courses that are necessary, not the ones I like, and I am going to get out of this hell ASAP.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 30, 2009, 05:18:27 PMI said to hell with all of you.
Conan the Chinaman. :)
I also figured that if THAT'S how Canadians think, then I had no business finding a job there.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 30, 2009, 05:18:27 PM
When I was in university, the most frustrating thing was that everybody told me to slow down. Parents, professors, friends, counsellors. They all gave murderous advice. Do what you enjoy. See the world. Experience different things. Take your time.
I said to hell with all of you. I am going to take the courses that are necessary, not the ones I like, and I am going to get out of this hell ASAP.
This is a good point. People who need to see the world and take their time shouldn't be wasting that time studying. They should be off backpacking in Europe with maple leaf logos on their hats. Mono had a purpose and intended to complete it. He knew what he wanted to accomplish.
That doesn't mean everyone is able to do that at age 17 or 18 though, and in those cases, they should probably wait until they are ready to actually do the thing. Otherwise, they might find themselves digging out of an academic hole or spending thousands on education that will go to waste. You want a level playing field when you begin. You don't want to dig yourself into a bad spot before you decide to start working at it.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 30, 2009, 05:18:27 PM
When I was in university, the most frustrating thing was that everybody told me to slow down. Parents, professors, friends, counsellors. They all gave murderous advice. Do what you enjoy. See the world. Experience different things. Take your time.
I said to hell with all of you. I am going to take the courses that are necessary, not the ones I like, and I am going to get out of this hell ASAP.
And you fell face first into something infinitely worse.
Quote from: Monoriu on June 30, 2009, 05:18:27 PM
When I was in university, the most frustrating thing was that everybody told me to slow down. Parents, professors, friends, counsellors. They all gave murderous advice. Do what you enjoy. See the world. Experience different things. Take your time.
I said to hell with all of you. I am going to take the courses that are necessary, not the ones I like, and I am going to get out of this hell ASAP.
And do you now recognize they were right and you were wrong? :P
I don't get all these personal references. Can someone give me a bio summary of each forum member?
Quote from: Phillip V on July 01, 2009, 12:29:22 AM
I don't get all these personal references. Can someone give me a bio summary of each forum member?
Short version: Born in Hong Kong. Went to Vancouver to do university degree and grab Canadian passport. Went back to Hong Kong after 4 years when both goals were fulfilled. Became office assistant in Hong Kong government. Been working there for 11 years.
I was born at an early age, though already people could tell of my genius. Escaping the bario of Oxnard I first worked at a high class food establishment called Jack is in the Box. After a while I learned that Jane was actually in the box, and escaped before the law could find me.
The details of my life are quite inconsequential.... Very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low-grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a 15-year-old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize; he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes, he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy. The sort of general malaise that only the genius possess and the insane lament... My childhood was typical: summers in Rangoon... luge lessons... In the spring, we'd make meat helmets... When I was insolent I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds — pretty standard, really. At the age of 12, I received my first scribe. At the age of 14, a Zoroastrian named Vilmer ritualistically shaved my testicles — there really is nothing like a shorn scrotum — it's breathtaking... I suggest you try it.
:lol:
Priceless
:lmfao: