http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/10/turkey-suicide-bomb-killed-in-ankara
QuoteTurkey 'terror attack': many killed in Ankara blasts
At least 30 people have been killed and more than 100 wounded in a terrorist attack on a peace rally in the centre of the Turkish capital, according to reports.
Twin explosions outside Ankara's main train station on Saturday morning appear to have targeted hundreds of people who had gathered to protest violence between authorities and Kurdish separatist group, the PKK.
Turkish government officials said the explosion was a terrorist attack and are investigating the claim that a suicide bomber was responsible.
Turkey's prime minister, Ahmet Davutoğlu, is to hold a meeting with government officials and security chiefs in response to the attack, his office said.
The country's interior ministry confirmed 30 people were killed in the blasts and 126 were wounded. A Reuters reporter at the scene saw at least 20 bodies covered by flags, with bloodstains and body parts scattered on the road.
Witnessessaid the blasts were seconds apart shortly after 10am and were so powerful they rocked nearby high-rise buildings.
Those involved in the peace march tended to the wounded lying on the ground, as hundreds of stunned people wandered around the streets. Bodies lay in two circles around 20 metres apart where the explosions had taken place
No group has yet claimed responsibility for the blast, which occurred ahead of the planned peace march to the long-running conflict between the state and Kurdish militants in south-east Turkey.
The explosion came three weeks ahead of a parliamentary election and amid growing security concerns in the region. A rally for the pro-Kurdish HDP party was bombed in June, ahead of last year's general election.
The country has been in a heightened state of alert since starting a "synchronized war on terror" in July, including airstrikes against Islamic State fighters in Syria and PKK bases in northern Iraq. It has also rounded up hundreds of suspected militants at home.
Designated a terrorist group by Turkey, the United States and the European Union, the PKK launched a separatist insurgency in 1984 in which more than 40,000 people have been killed.
The state launched peace talks with the PKK's jailed leader in 2012 and the latest in a series of ceasefires had been holding until the violence flared again in July.
More details soon...
:(
Tension Strategy alla Turca?
Shit, the Kurds are accusing the government of being behind it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34495161
QuoteTwo explosions at a peace rally in the Turkish capital Ankara have killed at least 30 people and injured 126, the interior ministry says.
TV footage shows scenes of panic and people lying on the ground covered in blood, amid protest banners.
The blasts took place near the city's central train station as people gathered for a march organised by leftist groups.
Turkey's president condemned the attacks as "terrorist acts".
Government officials are investigating reports that a suicide bomber was behind at least one of the explosions.
The pro-Kurdish HDP party was among those attending the rally.
The leader of the HDP has blamed the state for the attack, which he called "a huge massacre", and cancelled all election rallies.
Turkey is holding a re-run of June's inconclusive parliamentary elections on 1 November.
The HDP was among those joining Saturday's rally for "peace and democracy", called for by the confederation of trades unions, which was due to start at 12:00 local time.
The two explosions happened shortly after 10:00 as crowds gathered ahead of the rally. Amateur video footage showed a group of young people holding hands and singing, before the first blast.
The HDP tweeted that police "attacked" people carrying the injured away.
Opposition MP Musa Cam tweeted a photo of a ball bearing he says he found at the scene.
Local resident Emre told the BBC that he heard two separate explosions and saw a number of dead bodies. Angry people tried to attack police cars, he said.
An HDP rally in the city of Diyarbakir was bombed in June, ahead of general elections in which the party entered parliament for the first time.
The BBC's Mark Lowen in Istanbul says it was feared that another similar attack was imminent, as voters prepare to go to the polls once more.
In July, a suicide bombing by suspected Islamic State militants on a gathering of Socialist youth activists in the town of Suruc on the Syrian border killed at least 30 people.
A ceasefire between the Kurdish militant group the PKK and Turkey's government later broke down, and there have been regular attacks from both sides since then.
Wouldn't put it past Erdogan.
Quote from: Martinus on October 10, 2015, 06:55:00 AM
Wouldn't put it past Erdogan.
I imagine someone would have noticed by now if he had blown himself up.
If only Erdogan had been a suicide bomber.
The best thing for Turkey would be for Erdogan to gracefully step down after the elections. Since that's not happening, the second-best thing would be for him to die from a stroke or heart attack.
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on October 10, 2015, 08:15:44 AM
If only Erdogan had been a suicide bomber.
The best thing for Turkey would be for Erdogan to gracefully step down after the elections. Since that's not happening, the second-best thing would be for him to die from a stroke or heart attack.
He's recently had the chief editor of Today Zaman arrested because he supposedly insulted the president on Twitter.
Latest official number is 86 dead.
Quote from: Syt on October 10, 2015, 08:18:12 AM
Quote from: HisMajestyBOB on October 10, 2015, 08:15:44 AM
If only Erdogan had been a suicide bomber.
The best thing for Turkey would be for Erdogan to gracefully step down after the elections. Since that's not happening, the second-best thing would be for him to die from a stroke or heart attack.
He's recently had the chief editor of Today Zaman arrested because he supposedly insulted the president on Twitter.
The Presidency of Turkey is supposed to be pretty limited in power, but Erdogan pulled a Putin. He, very transparently, wants to be dictator of Turkey so damn bad. If he gets the votes this coming election, he'll modify the constitution and grant himself a bunch of powers. If he loses, he'll likely try to ban the opposition parties and you'll see street fights between his supporters and theirs. A military coup would also inflame his supporters, and I'm not sure if the military has the ability to pull off a coup. So best case - he dies in his sleep of natural causes.
Well, the military's political power has been successively been de-fanged since he's come to power, so that's unlikely.
Erdogan pulled a little trick a while back: When a lot of top positions had to be newly appointed, Erdogan had all those accused of planning a coup, who were opposed to the AKP or firmly in favour of Turkey's old and strictly secular system. Those officers were barred from promotions for the duration of the following criminal investigations. By the time they were finally cleared or pardoned, all top military positions were taken by people who were either uninterested in politics or favourable towards the AKP.
They also threw Erdogan in jail back in the 1990's for reciting a poem. I guess he got even.
Wouldn't put it past Erdogan to organize a false flag attack.
Quote from: DGuller on October 10, 2015, 10:45:38 AM
Wouldn't put it past Erdogan to organize a false flag attack.
You have to have someone pretty fucking dedicated to do a false flag suicide bombing. The only party involved known to use suicide bombing is the Kurdish PKK, though why they would do so against their own people doesn't make any sense to me.
You guys are reminding me of all those conservatives who were convinced that Hugo Chavez WAS COMING STRAIGHT FOR US! Just as Chavez wasn't going to light Latin America on fire with Communism and Obamacare, Erdogan isn't about to install a theocracy and Jihad his way across Europe. At worst he's a Putin acting out pretending he lives in a long lost empire.
Was it suicide bombers?
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 12:14:15 PM
You have to have someone pretty fucking dedicated to do a false flag suicide bombing. The only party involved known to use suicide bombing is the Kurdish PKK, though why they would do so against their own people doesn't make any sense to me.
The ones carrying out the bombing don't need to know they're part of a false flag attack. They could've been a couple of ISIS operatives the Turks borrowed.
Quote
You guys are reminding me of all those conservatives who were convinced that Hugo Chavez WAS COMING STRAIGHT FOR US! Just as Chavez wasn't going to light Latin America on fire with Communism and Obamacare, Erdogan isn't about to install a theocracy and Jihad his way across Europe. At worst he's a Putin acting out pretending he lives in a long lost empire.
:huh: Who's saying this? That sounds like quite a strawman. I think what everyone is concerned about is that last part, which is a pretty bad scenario. Let's not forget that Turkey is part of NATO, and thus we're always invested in their affairs to some extent. And even if we're not invested, as a proponent of free society, it is frustrating to see one more example of freedoms being rolled back.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 10:19:11 AM
They also threw Erdogan in jail back in the 1990's for reciting a poem. I guess he got even.
he got even, but it's quite clear they were right in throwing him in prison. They were, however, mistaken in ever letting him out.
Quote from: DGuller on October 10, 2015, 12:43:56 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 12:14:15 PM
You have to have someone pretty fucking dedicated to do a false flag suicide bombing. The only party involved known to use suicide bombing is the Kurdish PKK, though why they would do so against their own people doesn't make any sense to me.
The ones carrying out the bombing don't need to know they're part of a false flag attack. They could've been a couple of ISIS operatives the Turks borrowed.
Quote
You guys are reminding me of all those conservatives who were convinced that Hugo Chavez WAS COMING STRAIGHT FOR US! Just as Chavez wasn't going to light Latin America on fire with Communism and Obamacare, Erdogan isn't about to install a theocracy and Jihad his way across Europe. At worst he's a Putin acting out pretending he lives in a long lost empire.
:huh: Who's saying this? That sounds like quite a strawman. I think what everyone is concerned about is that last part, which is a pretty bad scenario. Let's not forget that Turkey is part of NATO, and thus we're always invested in their affairs to some extent. And even if we're not invested, as a proponent of free society, it is frustrating to see one more example of freedoms being rolled back.
Now if it was ISIS, that's hardly a false flag. As far as I know they aren't allied with the Turkish government. It's likely it's Kurdish splinter group. As to who talk about theocracy that was you back in 2013. I embellished a bit, nobody said anything about over running Europe with a Jihad. Now what sort of freedoms are being rolled back? Like I said, Erdogan was tossed in jail for reciting poetry while the Mayor of Istanbul less then a decade before by the military. Then he tosses some of them in jail of allegedly plotting to overthrow the government. Seems like a lateral move so far as freedom is concerned.
My parents were there yesterday. What a great time to visit Turkey.
I see Raz is back to his old idiotic self.
Quote from: Martinus on October 10, 2015, 03:27:29 PM
I see Raz is back to his old idiotic self.
You were the one who suggested Erdogan was behind the bombing. Do you have any proof of this. Any proof that he's ordered a suicide bombing ever? Please, show me what makes you say such things. Open my eyes.
Enough people hate Turkey I don't think you need some crazy theory to explain why there might be a terrorist attack.
It was Byzanteen nationalists. :ph34r:
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 02:22:33 PM
Now if it was ISIS, that's hardly a false flag. As far as I know they aren't allied with the Turkish government. It's likely it's Kurdish splinter group. As to who talk about theocracy that was you back in 2013. I embellished a bit, nobody said anything about over running Europe with a Jihad. Now what sort of freedoms are being rolled back? Like I said, Erdogan was tossed in jail for reciting poetry while the Mayor of Istanbul less then a decade before by the military. Then he tosses some of them in jail of allegedly plotting to overthrow the government. Seems like a lateral move so far as freedom is concerned.
As far as the danger of theocracies, I'm sure I was talking about it in other years as well. I know it's your schtick lately to always reflexively argue when people speak negatively about religions, but it is nevertheless true that governments where religion plays a large role are incompatible with democracy. And unlike some of the other undemocratic governments like the Turkish junta, they make it harder to transition to democracy later. Erdogan has been fanning the flames of religious extremism in his rise to power, and that is bad news for the development of his country, with him at the helm or not.
Nonsense. The United States is a country where religion plays a large role, it has since the 19th century. Democracy has done fine. In fact I would argue the exact opposite of what you say. Countries where religion is weakened by the state also have weak democratic traditions. Turkey is a prime example. Others would be Russia, China, and Mexico. France is a functional democracy (though closer to what Erdogan wanted), but French Democracy has a been pretty bumpy. They are on their Fifth Republic after all. Countries that limit religion are also limiting speech.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
They are on their Fifth Republic after all.
If they had been more pro-religion the Nazis would have lost.
Religion has been incredibly reactionary and anti-Democratic in Catholic countries. You cannot simply come up with a universal theory of history without considering different cultural and political circumstances.
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2015, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
They are on their Fifth Republic after all.
If they had been more pro-religion the Nazis would have lost.
How many of the French Republics collapsed due to internal problems?
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:38:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2015, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
They are on their Fifth Republic after all.
If they had been more pro-religion the Nazis would have lost.
How many of the French Republics collapsed due to internal problems?
One, the second. The first and fourth collapsed because of the strain of wars.
Though the first was weird democracy wise. No matter how wide, or narrow, the franchise was nobody voted. I am not sure why that was, but I guess the first couple US Presidential elections also had weird voter turnout, in the few states that actually had a popular vote. Maybe it takes awhile for that tradition to kick in.
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2015, 04:39:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:38:24 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 10, 2015, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
They are on their Fifth Republic after all.
If they had been more pro-religion the Nazis would have lost.
How many of the French Republics collapsed due to internal problems?
One, the second. The first and fourth collapsed because of the strain of wars.
Strain of war is an internal problem. Conquest in War is an external one. I don't think anyone can say that the French 1st Republic was healthy. The French 4th Republic suffered from the problems of the third.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
Nonsense. The United States is a country where religion plays a large role, it has since the 19th century. Democracy has done fine. In fact I would argue the exact opposite of what you say. Countries where religion is weakened by the state also have weak democratic traditions. Turkey is a prime example. Others would be Russia, China, and Mexico. France is a functional democracy (though closer to what Erdogan wanted), but French Democracy has a been pretty bumpy. They are on their Fifth Republic after all. Countries that limit religion are also limiting speech.
There is a clear separation between religion and state in US, and that has largely always been respected. The people in government are religious, but the government itself has always been secular.
As for the other countries, I don't know about most of them in detail to comment, but you're dead wrong about Russia. The Orthodox Church has been the tool of oppressive Russian government since forever. Yes, even during the Soviet times. And it's been let loose on the people again during Putin's time.
There aren't that many examples of functional democracies in general, unfortunately. But the ones that have stood the test of time have all been remarkably secular. There are secular autocracies out there, sure, but there aren't any theocratic democracies. I wonder why? :hmm:
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:42:59 PM
Strain of war is an internal problem. Conquest in War is an external one. I don't think anyone can say that the French 1st Republic was healthy. The French 4th Republic suffered from the problems of the third.
If the military is committing coups because of defeats I think it is an external problem. That has nothing to do with Democracy.
And what poisoned the 1st Republic? The decision to declare war on Austria. A huge war shortly after the Constitution was ratified would have been disastrous for us. Heck the military nearly revolted more than once during the Revolutionary War.
Quote from: DGuller on October 10, 2015, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
Nonsense. The United States is a country where religion plays a large role, it has since the 19th century. Democracy has done fine. In fact I would argue the exact opposite of what you say. Countries where religion is weakened by the state also have weak democratic traditions. Turkey is a prime example. Others would be Russia, China, and Mexico. France is a functional democracy (though closer to what Erdogan wanted), but French Democracy has a been pretty bumpy. They are on their Fifth Republic after all. Countries that limit religion are also limiting speech.
There is a clear separation between religion and state in US, and that has largely always been respected. The people in government are religious, but the government itself has always been secular.
As for the other countries, I don't know about most of them in detail to comment, but you're dead wrong about Russia. The Orthodox Church has been the tool of oppressive Russian government since forever. Yes, even during the Soviet times. And it's been let loose on the people again during Putin's time.
There aren't that many examples of functional democracies in general, unfortunately. But the ones that have stood the test of time have all been remarkably secular. There are secular autocracies out there, sure, but there aren't any theocratic democracies. I wonder why? :hmm:
Because it's contradiction in terms. A rule by priests is can't also be the rule by the people. You are essentially asking why are there no democratic dictatorships. If you are using the example of countries that don't have a strict seperation of church and state then yeah, there's lots of Democracies. UK, Norway, Sweden, Spain, etc.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 05:41:36 PM
Because it's contradiction in terms. A rule by priests is can't also be the rule by the people. You are essentially asking why are there no democratic dictatorships. If you are using the example of countries that don't have a strict seperation of church and state then yeah, there's lots of Democracies. UK, Norway, Sweden, Spain, etc.
I'd be curious to see some of our Spanish posters weigh in on the role of religion in democracy in Spain. :lol:
As for the other three countries, when they became democratic, religion has long seized to be relevant there. Separating religion from state is most important in countries where religion actually has power.
This is not true. Are you saying that Britain was not a democracy in 1940? Irreligion is a fairly recent phenomenon in most of these countries. You seem to be jumping from one foot to another as I shoot down your arguments. Can you think of any Democracy that limits the rights to religious speech or religious meetings? I can't. Like a Democratic theocracy it's a Democracy that so grossly limits the rights to speech and assembly isn't a Democracy. Such behavior is just as much an impediment to Democracy as government by priest, perhaps more since it's possible that Head of state could be a religious figure but not actually have power like in a constitutional monarchy. One of the biggest reason that Turkish Democracy still struggles is because the constant military coups, often inspired a need to restrict religious freedom. While Erdogan's hamfisted efforts to reign in the military are bad, they are less a threat to democracy then a military coup to overthrow Erdogan. A successful Democracy must have a military subordinate to civilian government. And while his methods and perhaps motives are questionable, curtailing the militaries power is necessary step. Overthrowing the government and throwing people in jail simply because the army doesn't like is always a step backward.
Now, I ask you as I asked Marty do you have any evidence that these suicide bombings are the work of the government?
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 06:23:06 PM
This is not true. Are you saying that Britain was not a democracy in 1940? Irreligion is a fairly recent phenomenon in most of these countries. You seem to be jumping from one foot to another as I shoot down your arguments. Can you think of any Democracy that limits the rights to religious speech or religious meetings? I can't. Like a Democratic theocracy it's a Democracy that so grossly limits the rights to speech and assembly isn't a Democracy. Such behavior is just as much an impediment to Democracy as government by priest, perhaps more since it's possible that Head of state could be a religious figure but not actually have power like in a constitutional monarchy. One of the biggest reason that Turkish Democracy still struggles is because the constant military coups, often inspired a need to restrict religious freedom. While Erdogan's hamfisted efforts to reign in the military are bad, they are less a threat to democracy then a military coup to overthrow Erdogan. A successful Democracy must have a military subordinate to civilian government. And while his methods and perhaps motives are questionable, curtailing the militaries power is necessary step. Overthrowing the government and throwing people in jail simply because the army doesn't like is always a step backward.
You're not shooting anything down, because for one your argument is hopeless. Every single liberal democracy in the world is secular, it's really impossible to argue away this inconvenient fact. And your example of Spain was a shotgun blast in the foot, because Catholic Church was a notorious accomplice of Franco's regime. And what coincided with Spain becoming a democracy was the erosion of Church's power in Spain, and widespread disdain for it. Good.
And by the way, no one complained about the military being defanged, although it was unfortunate given what greater evil replaced it. What started off this discussion was jailing people for insulting Erdogan. So let's not sneakily move the goal posts.
Quote
Now, I ask you as I asked Marty do you have any evidence that these suicide bombings are the work of the government?
No, of course not. That's why I said "I wouldn't be surprised" as opposed to "I know they did it". Why would I not be surprised? Because Erdogan likes to mimic Putin, and Putin likely did make use of false flag bombings to get in power.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
Nonsense. The United States is a country where religion plays a large role, it has since the 19th century.
So it didn't during the 18th century? :huh:
Quote from: DGuller on October 10, 2015, 06:39:13 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 06:23:06 PM
This is not true. Are you saying that Britain was not a democracy in 1940? Irreligion is a fairly recent phenomenon in most of these countries. You seem to be jumping from one foot to another as I shoot down your arguments. Can you think of any Democracy that limits the rights to religious speech or religious meetings? I can't. Like a Democratic theocracy it's a Democracy that so grossly limits the rights to speech and assembly isn't a Democracy. Such behavior is just as much an impediment to Democracy as government by priest, perhaps more since it's possible that Head of state could be a religious figure but not actually have power like in a constitutional monarchy. One of the biggest reason that Turkish Democracy still struggles is because the constant military coups, often inspired a need to restrict religious freedom. While Erdogan's hamfisted efforts to reign in the military are bad, they are less a threat to democracy then a military coup to overthrow Erdogan. A successful Democracy must have a military subordinate to civilian government. And while his methods and perhaps motives are questionable, curtailing the militaries power is necessary step. Overthrowing the government and throwing people in jail simply because the army doesn't like is always a step backward.
You're not shooting anything down, because for one your argument is hopeless. Every single liberal democracy in the world is secular, it's really impossible to argue away this inconvenient fact. And your example of Spain was a shotgun blast in the foot, because Catholic Church was a notorious accomplice of Franco's regime. And what coincided with Spain becoming a democracy was the erosion of Church's power in Spain, and widespread disdain for it. Good.
And by the way, no one complained about the military being defanged, although it was unfortunate given what greater evil replaced it. What started off this discussion was jailing people for insulting Erdogan. So let's not sneakily move the goal posts.
Quote
Now, I ask you as I asked Marty do you have any evidence that these suicide bombings are the work of the government?
No, of course not. That's why I said "I wouldn't be surprised" as opposed to "I know they did it". Why would I not be surprised? Because Erdogan likes to mimic Putin, and Putin likely did make use of false flag bombings to get in power.
Most people are Catholics in Spain. You have me at disadvantage here though, since I was thinking of Belgium and wrote Spain instead. Your definition of secular is quite narrow with separation of church and state and irreligious and runs into problems. Was the UK a Democracy in 1940? When did it becomes one? When did Norway become a Democracy? When did any of these countries that we consider democracies and lack a separation of church and state become democracies? What is a threshold of irreligion before a country becomes a democracy?
Spain is definitely not a religious country any more. In fact, the support given by the Catholic church to the anti-democratic regime is one of the reasons for this state of affairs.
Voice of the Catholic church is regularly ignored there when it comes to law making.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 06:23:06 PM
Now, I ask you as I asked Marty do you have any evidence that these suicide bombings are the work of the government?
What part of "I wouldn't put it past him" suggests I claim to have any evidence or proof that he did it? :huh:
The expression simply means that, based on what I know about the man, he seems capable of doing something like this.
Sweden no longer has a state church, BUT the monarch has to be Swedish-style Lutheran, BUT the monarch has no power (as in actually no power in the constitution, unlike some countries where tradition plays a part).
I don't know what the discussion is really about, BUT I like to post.
Quote from: The Brain on October 11, 2015, 03:33:11 AM
Sweden no longer has a state church, BUT the monarch has to be Swedish-style Lutheran, BUT the monarch has no power (as in actually no power in the constitution, unlike some countries where tradition plays a part).
I don't know what the discussion is really about, BUT I like to post.
Out of curiosity, I googled the current Swedish royal family, and most of them are not blonde. :hmm:
And only the king looks capable of taking an axe to some Saxons...
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2-3.timeinc.net%2Fpeople%2Fi%2F2015%2Fnews%2F150622%2Fswedish-royals-01-800.jpg&hash=15526d3cc83be60da5cc29306653c8543e78b788)
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 11, 2015, 03:45:22 AM
Quote from: The Brain on October 11, 2015, 03:33:11 AM
Sweden no longer has a state church, BUT the monarch has to be Swedish-style Lutheran, BUT the monarch has no power (as in actually no power in the constitution, unlike some countries where tradition plays a part).
I don't know what the discussion is really about, BUT I like to post.
Out of curiosity, I googled the current Swedish royal family, and most of them are not blonde. :hmm:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg2-3.timeinc.net%2Fpeople%2Fi%2F2015%2Fnews%2F150622%2Fswedish-royals-01-800.jpg&hash=15526d3cc83be60da5cc29306653c8543e78b788)
Just what are you implying, Sir?
Quote from: The Brain on October 11, 2015, 03:47:36 AM
Just what are you implying, Sir?
Failure to meet our shallow American stereotypes. :(
(though the princess on the far right...from the pic above...fits the bill)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fbrewpublic.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F10%2FImage-1-Swedish-Bikini-Team.jpg&hash=4b21cf8a6205b9d8f31cd6acb068b0e7744d84e4)
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 11, 2015, 03:45:22 AM
And only the king looks capable of taking an axe to some Saxons...
I wouldn't count his wife out on that score, even if she isn't very tall.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 04:32:57 PM
Nonsense. The United States is a country where religion plays a large role, it has since the 19th century. Democracy has done fine. In fact I would argue the exact opposite of what you say. Countries where religion is weakened by the state also have weak democratic traditions. Turkey is a prime example. Others would be Russia, China, and Mexico. France is a functional democracy (though closer to what Erdogan wanted), but French Democracy has a been pretty bumpy. They are on their Fifth Republic after all. Countries that limit religion are also limiting speech.
I have no idea why you mentioned China. Chinese are extremely superstitious. They believe in everything under the sun. But that also means they aren't very religious to begin with. They say the Lord's prayer in the morning, worship the Buddha in the afternoon and worry about fung shui in the evening. They are not serious about it at all. That China has weak democratic institutions has nothing to do with religion.
Quote from: Tonitrus on October 11, 2015, 03:45:22 AM
Out of curiosity, I googled the current Swedish royal family, and most of them are not blonde. :hmm:
That happens when you put French and Germans on the throne. :(
I'm hearing ISIS rumors.
Quote from: Queequeg on October 11, 2015, 08:09:49 AM
I'm hearing ISIS rumors.
What that ISIS persuaded the Turkish security services to dupe some ISIS suicide bombers into attacking the Kurds, yes I can see that.
Quote from: mongers on October 11, 2015, 08:12:54 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on October 11, 2015, 08:09:49 AM
I'm hearing ISIS rumors.
What that ISIS persuaded the Turkish security services to dupe some ISIS suicide bombers into attacking the Kurds, yes I can see that.
It makes sense for ISIS to target a peace festival regardless of affiliation.
Erdogan is a tinpot dictator wannabe, a religious bigot, and hypocrite who thinks nothing of starting a little nasty civil war for a few poll points.
But is definitely not a libertarian. If only he came out for the Laffer curve then we could get Raz to denounce him.
Larry Laffer curve?
Quote from: Martinus on October 11, 2015, 02:55:09 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 06:23:06 PM
Now, I ask you as I asked Marty do you have any evidence that these suicide bombings are the work of the government?
What part of "I wouldn't put it past him" suggests I claim to have any evidence or proof that he did it? :huh:
The expression simply means that, based on what I know about the man, he seems capable of doing something like this.
Then give me what you know to make you say that.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 11, 2015, 10:41:57 AM
Erdogan is a tinpot dictator wannabe, a religious bigot, and hypocrite who thinks nothing of starting a little nasty civil war for a few poll points.
But is definitely not a libertarian. If only he came out for the Laffer curve then we could get Raz to denounce him.
He's a conservative. While I'm no fan of conservatives I don't believe that's enough to declare him the worst man alive and up end a country. He's like Victor Orban, yet nobody suggests that Orban is launching suicide attacks, that he be overthrown by force or that he be jailed indefinitely for impromptu poetry jams. What makes the difference?
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 12:53:39 PM
He's a conservative. While I'm no fan of conservatives I don't believe that's enough to declare him the worst man alive and up end a country. He's like Victor Orban, yet nobody suggests that Orban is launching suicide attacks, that he be overthrown by force or that he be jailed indefinitely for impromptu poetry jams. What makes the difference?
A few things. First, Orban is in no way considered a leader on the up and up - he is something of a disgrace.
But more to the point, check out the Ergenekon trials, that he previously belonged to new banned Islamist parties, and general corruption/ridiculousness (see the new presidential palace).
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 12:36:50 PM
Quote from: Martinus on October 11, 2015, 02:55:09 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 10, 2015, 06:23:06 PM
Now, I ask you as I asked Marty do you have any evidence that these suicide bombings are the work of the government?
What part of "I wouldn't put it past him" suggests I claim to have any evidence or proof that he did it? :huh:
The expression simply means that, based on what I know about the man, he seems capable of doing something like this.
Then give me what you know to make you say that.
Gut feeling. :)
Okay, I have a gut feeling. My gut feeling in that this animosity is because of the word "Muslim".
Quote from: alfred russel on October 11, 2015, 01:20:34 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 12:53:39 PM
He's a conservative. While I'm no fan of conservatives I don't believe that's enough to declare him the worst man alive and up end a country. He's like Victor Orban, yet nobody suggests that Orban is launching suicide attacks, that he be overthrown by force or that he be jailed indefinitely for impromptu poetry jams. What makes the difference?
A few things. First, Orban is in no way considered a leader on the up and up - he is something of a disgrace.
But more to the point, check out the Ergenekon trials, that he previously belonged to new banned Islamist parties, and general corruption/ridiculousness (see the new presidential palace).
You know you have put way to many words here. The word "Islamist" is enough, because let's be honest. That's the problem we have isn't it? Would anyone really give a shit if it was just corruption?
Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 01:40:21 PM
Okay, I have a gut feeling. My gut feeling in that this animosity is because of the word "Muslim".
Guess that makes Putin a Muslim too.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 01:44:07 PM
You know you have put way to many words here. The word "Islamist" is enough, because let's be honest. That's the problem we have isn't it? Would anyone really give a shit if it was just corruption?
Well, you started with a comparison of him to Orban. I think there has been as much if not more discussion of Orban on this forum than there has been of erdogan, and I don't think Orban is an islamist.
Quote from: alfred russel on October 11, 2015, 02:15:08 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 01:44:07 PM
You know you have put way to many words here. The word "Islamist" is enough, because let's be honest. That's the problem we have isn't it? Would anyone really give a shit if it was just corruption?
Well, you started with a comparison of him to Orban. I think there has been as much if not more discussion of Orban on this forum than there has been of erdogan, and I don't think Orban is an islamist.
:yes: I think we've discussed each of that Putinist trio aplenty. Each of those fascists appeals to different things in order to destroy the system of checks on their power, but all of them unleash very dangerous processes in order to accomplish it. And all three of these countries can have a very direct impact on our interests, so ignoring them is not wise.
Quote from: alfred russel on October 11, 2015, 02:15:08 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 01:44:07 PM
You know you have put way to many words here. The word "Islamist" is enough, because let's be honest. That's the problem we have isn't it? Would anyone really give a shit if it was just corruption?
Well, you started with a comparison of him to Orban. I think there has been as much if not more discussion of Orban on this forum than there has been of erdogan, and I don't think Orban is an islamist.
Actually I started by comparing him to Chavez and the conservative obsession with him.
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 01:44:39 PM
Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.
I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on. Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 02:22:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 01:44:39 PM
Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.
I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on. Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.
And I will defend the right of people to elect their government on a regular rather than one-off basis, with no government chicanery that makes the exercise essentially meaningless. That is a far more important principle if you want democracy to stick.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 02:22:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 01:44:39 PM
Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.
I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on. Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.
Anti Erdogan sentiment on languish isn't Islamaphobia, as has been amply demonstrated.
In a country like Turkey that has jailed hundreds through the Ergenekon trials, I'd slow down on simply dismissing conspiracy theories (not that those are the reason languish isn't fond of erdogan either).
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 02:22:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 01:44:39 PM
Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.
I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on. Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.
My very pious Turkish friends hate Erdogan...are they Islamophobic as well?
Quote from: alfred russel on October 11, 2015, 02:48:34 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 02:22:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 01:44:39 PM
Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.
I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on. Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.
Anti Erdogan sentiment on languish isn't Islamaphobia, as has been amply demonstrated.
In a country like Turkey that has jailed hundreds through the Ergenekon trials, I'd slow down on simply dismissing conspiracy theories (not that those are the reason languish isn't fond of erdogan either).
Nonsense. Anti-Erdogan sentiment on this board very much about Anti-Islamic sentiment. If Erdogan was an Athiest, a Christian, Jew, or Buddhist would anyone suggest that suicide bombings are at his behest? Seriously? C'mon now. People on this board have already expressed a desire Erdogan to be extra-legally overthrown or simply be imprisoned by the military before he came to power (for poetry no less), that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow. The longing for the the militarists who waged war on the Kurds and invaded Cyprus so that to prevent Erdogan from waging war on the Kurds and disrupting NATO strikes me as disingenuous.
Quote from: Valmy on October 11, 2015, 02:50:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 02:22:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 01:44:39 PM
Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.
I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on. Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.
My very pious Turkish friends hate Erdogan...are they Islamophobic as well?
I don't know your friend. For all I know, Erdogan beat him at softball 20 years ago.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:20:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 11, 2015, 02:50:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 02:22:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 01:44:39 PM
Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.
I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on. Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.
My very pious Turkish friends hate Erdogan...are they Islamophobic as well?
I don't know your friend. For all I know, Erdogan beat him at softball 20 years ago.
I know I know. You are the expert on Erdogan from fucking Missouri. No need to listen to anybody else.
Quote from: Valmy on October 11, 2015, 03:30:07 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:20:20 PM
Quote from: Valmy on October 11, 2015, 02:50:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 02:22:48 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 01:44:39 PM
Raz will defend any piece of shit that Languish atheists dislike.
I will defend the right of the people to have the government they elected. I consider this principle to stand on. Kneejerk Islamophobia and conspiracy theories are just pet peeves.
My very pious Turkish friends hate Erdogan...are they Islamophobic as well?
I don't know your friend. For all I know, Erdogan beat him at softball 20 years ago.
I know I know. You are the expert on Erdogan from fucking Missouri. No need to listen to anybody else.
What a bizarre response to me saying "I don't know".
"My friends says this, why"
"I don't know. I don't know your friend"
"Oh, so you know everything?!"
What the fuck is this suppose to be?
You guys want to know I'm pissy on this issue and why I don't give languish the benefit of the doubt. Go look at the old Egypt thread. Go look at what you guys were saying when the military butchered people in the street. Look at the response to the crackdowns, the criminalization of political enemies. When people were convicted for their own brutalization. When protesters were convicted for hundreds of murders committed by the government. Who spoke up? Who was happy with it? Go look at your own goddamn statements.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:13:44 PM
that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.
And again you're making this up. The source of animus is that Erdogan is becoming a fascist dictator, and is fanning the flames of Islamic extremism to get there. The reason some people are sad to see the Turkish military defanged is that it would most certainly be the lesser evil than what Erdogan has become. That however does not mean that him defanging the military is what all this is about.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:42:45 PM
You guys want to know I'm pissy on this issue and why I don't give languish the benefit of the doubt. Go look at the old Egypt thread. Go look at what you guys were saying when the military butchered people in the street. Look at the response to the crackdowns, the criminalization of political enemies. When people were convicted for their own brutalization. When protesters were convicted for hundreds of murders committed by the government. Who spoke up? Who was happy with it? Go look at your own goddamn statements.
Egypt and Turkey are totally separate situations.
Eygpt is a third world country without a history of democracy that is quite unstable at the moment and has a series of unappealing factions vying for power.
Turkey has been (albeit tenuously) a first world country attempting to integrate into european institutions.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:42:45 PM
You guys want to know I'm pissy on this issue and why I don't give languish the benefit of the doubt. Go look at the old Egypt thread. Go look at what you guys were saying when the military butchered people in the street. Look at the response to the crackdowns, the criminalization of political enemies. When people were convicted for their own brutalization. When protesters were convicted for hundreds of murders committed by the government. Who spoke up? Who was happy with it? Go look at your own goddamn statements.
You don't need to give us the benefit of the doubt. We'll live without it.
It would help us tremendously though if you did give this issue some deep thought. Under your currently stated principles, wishing that Wehrmacht overthrew Hitler makes you a horrible human being. Hitler was popularly elected after all, whereas German junta would most certainly not be. :hmm: Then again, Germany did get a pretty good democracy after Hitler, so maybe you have a point.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:13:44 PM
that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.
and each of these times, the army kept power for themselves and did not return it until another bloodbath to depose them?
I was rather under the impression that they return power to civilian authorities every time. Considering that the alternative is a rise in power of religious extremist, I think it was a good thing. But I know, you don't care about these things. Religious extremism has never been a problem for you, no matter where it leads to.
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 03:59:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:13:44 PM
that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.
And again you're making this up. The source of animus is that Erdogan is becoming a fascist dictator, and is fanning the flames of Islamic extremism to get there. The reason some people are sad to see the Turkish military defanged is that it would most certainly be the lesser evil than what Erdogan has become. That however does not mean that him defanging the military is what all this is about.
No, I didn't make this up. Erdogan did suppress the military, the military has overthrown the government there several times. I did not say that defanging the military is what this is about. I was refuting that.
If he is a fascist dictatorship why did he lose the referendum? If is he flaming Islamic extremism, where are the are the suicide bombers at Erdogan's command? Where are the fanatical armies of Turkish Islamists invading Israel? Where are the beheading? Where is the Sharia law that he has implemented? Where is the theocracy you told me was coming back in 2013? Show me! Show me something solid.
Quote from: alfred russel on October 11, 2015, 04:00:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:42:45 PM
You guys want to know I'm pissy on this issue and why I don't give languish the benefit of the doubt. Go look at the old Egypt thread. Go look at what you guys were saying when the military butchered people in the street. Look at the response to the crackdowns, the criminalization of political enemies. When people were convicted for their own brutalization. When protesters were convicted for hundreds of murders committed by the government. Who spoke up? Who was happy with it? Go look at your own goddamn statements.
Egypt and Turkey are totally separate situations.
Eygpt is a third world country without a history of democracy that is quite unstable at the moment and has a series of unappealing factions vying for power.
Turkey has been (albeit tenuously) a first world country attempting to integrate into european institutions.
Okay, then why talking about the same solution for both countries?
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 04:05:11 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:42:45 PM
You guys want to know I'm pissy on this issue and why I don't give languish the benefit of the doubt. Go look at the old Egypt thread. Go look at what you guys were saying when the military butchered people in the street. Look at the response to the crackdowns, the criminalization of political enemies. When people were convicted for their own brutalization. When protesters were convicted for hundreds of murders committed by the government. Who spoke up? Who was happy with it? Go look at your own goddamn statements.
You don't need to give us the benefit of the doubt. We'll live without it.
It would help us tremendously though if you did give this issue some deep thought. Under your currently stated principles, wishing that Wehrmacht overthrew Hitler makes you a horrible human being. Hitler was popularly elected after all, whereas German junta would most certainly not be. :hmm: Then again, Germany did get a pretty good democracy after Hitler, so maybe you have a point.
A Hitler comparison? Seriously. Erdogan has been President for 13 years. In that time Hitler passed an enabling act, outlawed opposing political parties, waged war on most of the world, killed 10 million people in camps, committed suicide and was burned up by gasoline. How far along that road are we with Erdgoan?
Quote from: viper37 on October 11, 2015, 04:08:44 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:13:44 PM
that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.
and each of these times, the army kept power for themselves and did not return it until another bloodbath to depose them?
I was rather under the impression that they return power to civilian authorities every time. Considering that the alternative is a rise in power of religious extremist, I think it was a good thing. But I know, you don't care about these things. Religious extremism has never been a problem for you, no matter where it leads to.
And where has his "religious extremism" led too? He's been charge for over a decade. Is he actually a religious extremist? I ask you what I asked DG. Where is the Sharia law? Where is his cadres of Suicide bombers? I'm not seeing it. Show me. As far as I can see he's mostly a dingbat who lives in fantasy world of Neo-ottomaism. The military installed governments did kill people. They did imprison people with out just cause. They torture people. This is on record. Let me ask you this? How many murders are justified in preventing a pious Muslim from being elected? 100? 1,000? 100,000? Give me a number.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 04:24:28 PM
Okay, then why talking about the same solution for both countries?
We are?
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 04:37:26 PM
And where has his "religious extremism" led too? He's been charge for over a decade. Is he actually a religious extremist? I ask you what I asked DG. Where is the Sharia law? Where is his cadres of Suicide bombers? I'm not seeing it.
Look at Venezuela. Is it better a country now that Chavez and his successor have remodeled it?
Quote from: viper37 on October 11, 2015, 04:52:03 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 04:37:26 PM
And where has his "religious extremism" led too? He's been charge for over a decade. Is he actually a religious extremist? I ask you what I asked DG. Where is the Sharia law? Where is his cadres of Suicide bombers? I'm not seeing it.
Look at Venezuela. Is it better a country now that Chavez and his successor have remodeled it?
No, No. You ain't going to dodge this one. Where is the Sharia law? He's been President for 13 years, where is Islamic fundamentalism? Where has his oppression led? Is the country richer or poorer then it was before?
Quote from: alfred russel on October 11, 2015, 04:44:02 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 04:24:28 PM
Okay, then why talking about the same solution for both countries?
We are?
Military overthrow has been brought up here, so yes.
Not all military coups are created equal.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 11, 2015, 05:06:32 PM
Not all military coups are created equal.
Well I would like to know exactly how many murders and imprisonments are acceptable to you guys before we move forward.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 05:15:35 PM
Well I would like to know exactly how many murders and imprisonments are acceptable to you guys before we move forward.
Situationally dependent.
I am willing to move forward without any murders or imprisonments.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 04:28:03 PM
A Hitler comparison? Seriously. Erdogan has been President for 13 years. In that time Hitler passed an enabling act, outlawed opposing political parties, waged war on most of the world, killed 10 million people in camps, committed suicide and was burned up by gasoline. How far along that road are we with Erdgoan?
Depending on the situation and the strength of institutions, the speed of subversion of democracy is going to be different. Hitler came into much more favorable conditions for what he was planning to do. People like Putin, not as much. And I imagine that Erdogan had even more of the work cut out for him.
It wasn't until 2013 that Putin took his gloves off and let everyone know that the pretense was up, and it wasn't until 2014 that the Russian society has been whipped into a nationalistic fervor of truly scary magnitude. And yet I was writing in 2002 on Paradox that Putin was very bad news, and that he was on an apparent course to create a dictatorship. So, yes, sometimes it takes a while, but that doesn't mean you can't see it coming. In fact, because you have to erode democracy gradually is precisely why you can see it coming, if you're willing to look.
And here is another part that you're ignoring. What Putin and Erdogan are touching off is dangerous, and can survive and evolve after them. That's the biggest reason why they're very dangerous people, even more so that the destruction of democratic institutions by them.
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 05:53:58 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 04:28:03 PM
A Hitler comparison? Seriously. Erdogan has been President for 13 years. In that time Hitler passed an enabling act, outlawed opposing political parties, waged war on most of the world, killed 10 million people in camps, committed suicide and was burned up by gasoline. How far along that road are we with Erdgoan?
Depending on the situation and the strength of institutions, the speed of subversion of democracy is going to be different. Hitler came into much more favorable conditions for what he was planning to do. People like Putin, not as much. And I imagine that Erdogan had even more of the work cut out for him.
It wasn't until 2013 that Putin took his gloves off and let everyone know that the pretense was up, and it wasn't until 2014 that the Russian society has been whipped into a nationalistic fervor of truly scary magnitude. And yet I was writing in 2002 on Paradox that Putin was very bad news, and that he was on an apparent course to create a dictatorship. So, yes, sometimes it takes a while, but that doesn't mean you can't see it coming. In fact, because you have to erode democracy gradually is precisely why you can see it coming, if you're willing to look.
And here is another part that you're ignoring. What Putin and Erdogan are touching off is dangerous, and can survive and evolve after them. That's the biggest reason why they're very dangerous people, even more so that the destruction of democratic institutions by them.
Okay, so what exactly has Erdogan touched off? What fruits are there of his alleged Islamic fundamentalism? I'm not seeing anything. Are you going to show me something real? After a while (and it has been a while), people might suspect that this Fascist/Islamic is but a figment of your imagination.
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 05:53:58 PM
It wasn't until 2013 that Putin took his gloves off and let everyone know that the pretense was up,
Eh, he invaded Georgia in 2008.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 06:11:48 PM
Okay, so what exactly has Erdogan touched off? What fruits are there of his alleged Islamic fundamentalism? I'm not seeing anything. Are you going to show me something real? After a while (and it has been a while), people might suspect that this Fascist/Islamic is but a figment of your imagination.
Not worth any more of my time.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on October 11, 2015, 06:16:44 PM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 05:53:58 PM
It wasn't until 2013 that Putin took his gloves off and let everyone know that the pretense was up,
Eh, he invaded Georgia in 2008.
Not really related to domestic issues. Russia has been waging a low-level warfare against Georgia ever since USSR broke up.
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 06:31:47 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 06:11:48 PM
Okay, so what exactly has Erdogan touched off? What fruits are there of his alleged Islamic fundamentalism? I'm not seeing anything. Are you going to show me something real? After a while (and it has been a while), people might suspect that this Fascist/Islamic is but a figment of your imagination.
Not worth any more of my time.
Oh, it doesn't take long to write "nothing". We've argued a long time. I'm asking you to put up or shut up. If you got something, put it out. Or is it because I ask for something concrete your time suddenly because vastly more important. We can't just start offing people because you think that 20 years down the line he might turn out to be Hitler.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 06:44:14 PM
We've argued a long time.
Yes, that is precisely the point. We're argued for a long time and haven't gotten anywhere. To continue on now and "put up" would require me to make a long time researching what I would post, to make sure that I don't say anything inaccurate and give you an opening. Given how the conversation went so far, I know that you'll ask me to put up again later, and later, and later. At some point I would have to cut bait, so I may as well do it now.
I'm not giving up on the argument, I'm giving up on my further participation in this discussion. There are other people who share my view (actually it looks like everyone who's not you), so maybe one of them can continue on. Though, really, it's not worth it.
Okay, no concrete facts. Just tell me this: What makes you Feel this way about Turkey and that dingbat who likes to photographed with Ottoman solider cosplayers?
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 03:59:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:13:44 PM
that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.
And again you're making this up. The source of animus is that Erdogan is becoming a fascist dictator, and is fanning the flames of Islamic extremism to get there. The reason some people are sad to see the Turkish military defanged is that it would most certainly be the lesser evil than what Erdogan has become. That however does not mean that him defanging the military is what all this is about.
In order to label Erdogan as Fascist you have to expand the definition of Fascism way, way beyond any previous definition.
Turkey actually has a lot o Fascists. The CHP has Fascists. The MHP are basically Nazis. The AKP aren't really Fascists. Erdogan has completely gone off the rails, and clearly looks to Putin as a model of transforming a formally democratic system in to a presidential post-democracy but that's not Fascism in any strict sense.
It appears Prime Minister Davutoglu claims that the attack was either done by IS, PKK, or left wing extremists. That narrows it down.
Quote from: Syt on October 12, 2015, 04:05:59 AM
It appears Prime Minister Davutoglu claims that the attack was either done by IS, PKK, or left wing extremists. That narrows it down.
One newspaper is running with Assad ordered the attack and supported the PKK in doing it. :huh:
The Middle East is truly turning into chaos and oblivion if the version of Israel doing the bombing is not the most prominent yet.
Quote from: Queequeg on October 12, 2015, 04:01:43 AM
Quote from: DGuller on October 11, 2015, 03:59:43 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 11, 2015, 03:13:44 PM
that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.
And again you're making this up. The source of animus is that Erdogan is becoming a fascist dictator, and is fanning the flames of Islamic extremism to get there. The reason some people are sad to see the Turkish military defanged is that it would most certainly be the lesser evil than what Erdogan has become. That however does not mean that him defanging the military is what all this is about.
In order to label Erdogan as Fascist you have to expand the definition of Fascism way, way beyond any previous definition.
Turkey actually has a lot o Fascists. The CHP has Fascists. The MHP are basically Nazis. The AKP aren't really Fascists. Erdogan has completely gone off the rails, and clearly looks to Putin as a model of transforming a formally democratic system in to a presidential post-democracy but that's not Fascism in any strict sense.
Yeah, there are explicitly Fascist and Islamist parties. Erdogan's party isn't one of them. They are part of an international coalition of conservative parties that include the GOP, and the Tories. I imagine that a large part of the Ergdogan's success is that he's been liberalizing the economy and people have seen considerable economic growth as a result.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_of_European_Conservatives_and_Reformists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_of_European_Conservatives_and_Reformists)
David Cameron doesn't engage in corruption and then have the investigating police force fired. He doesn't order the routine jailing of journalists who criticize him. He doesn't give speeches about the natural inferiority of women. He doesn't restart the Irish troubles to get a few extra Conservative votes. He doesn't seek to overturn the British constitution. He didn't hit up the taxpayer to swap 10 Downing street for a massive palace three times the size of Versailles. He doesn't say insane things about over interest rate lobbies and twitter conspiracies, or claims about early medieval Cornishmen discovering America.
His party may be in same rubber chicken circuit as the Tories but they are not equivalent
Just to be clear, I'm not defending Erdogan at all, I just think that calling him Fascism is an obvious error. Putin, today, comes very close to Fascism, and Erdogan might be slouching towards it, but still isn't there.
Quote from: Queequeg on October 12, 2015, 01:05:28 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not defending Erdogan at all, I just think that calling him Fascism is an obvious error. Putin, today, comes very close to Fascism, and Erdogan might be slouching towards it, but still isn't there.
I have to admit I thought Erdogan was looking to Putin as the new model. But Putin siding with the Alawites against good Sunnis may ultimately change that.
I have no idea what Erdogan's game is but I do know the corruption his regime has introduced has made him a hated man among the Turks I know.
Quote from: Queequeg on October 12, 2015, 01:05:28 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not defending Erdogan at all, I just think that calling him Fascism is an obvious error. Putin, today, comes very close to Fascism, and Erdogan might be slouching towards it, but still isn't there.
My impression is that Putin isn't an idealist.
Quote from: The Brain on October 12, 2015, 01:42:45 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on October 12, 2015, 01:05:28 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not defending Erdogan at all, I just think that calling him Fascism is an obvious error. Putin, today, comes very close to Fascism, and Erdogan might be slouching towards it, but still isn't there.
My impression is that Putin isn't an idealist.
Neither was Mussolini. And of course both of them changed their colours politically as well.
Quote from: PJL on October 12, 2015, 01:46:24 PM
Quote from: The Brain on October 12, 2015, 01:42:45 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on October 12, 2015, 01:05:28 PM
Just to be clear, I'm not defending Erdogan at all, I just think that calling him Fascism is an obvious error. Putin, today, comes very close to Fascism, and Erdogan might be slouching towards it, but still isn't there.
My impression is that Putin isn't an idealist.
Neither was Mussolini.
:cry:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 12, 2015, 09:24:03 AM
David Cameron doesn't engage in corruption and then have the investigating police force fired. He doesn't order the routine jailing of journalists who criticize him. He doesn't give speeches about the natural inferiority of women. He doesn't restart the Irish troubles to get a few extra Conservative votes. He doesn't seek to overturn the British constitution. He didn't hit up the taxpayer to swap 10 Downing street for a massive palace three times the size of Versailles. He doesn't say insane things about over interest rate lobbies and twitter conspiracies, or claims about early medieval Cornishmen discovering America.
His party may be in same rubber chicken circuit as the Tories but they are not equivalent
So it is more like the statements and behavior of some House Republicans.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 12, 2015, 03:13:57 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 12, 2015, 09:24:03 AM
David Cameron doesn't engage in corruption and then have the investigating police force fired. He doesn't order the routine jailing of journalists who criticize him. He doesn't give speeches about the natural inferiority of women. He doesn't restart the Irish troubles to get a few extra Conservative votes. He doesn't seek to overturn the British constitution. He didn't hit up the taxpayer to swap 10 Downing street for a massive palace three times the size of Versailles. He doesn't say insane things about over interest rate lobbies and twitter conspiracies, or claims about early medieval Cornishmen discovering America.
His party may be in same rubber chicken circuit as the Tories but they are not equivalent
So it is more like the statements and behavior of some House Republicans.
I must have missed the part of the Bush years when the NYT was shut down and Helen Thomas tossed in the clink.
It is more like if Michelle Bachman was elected President with a tea party 2/3 majority and the judicial branch disbanded.
Yeah, House Republicans, like I said. They make all kinds of absurd statements.
*pats self on back*
Good for you. Why don't you go purge some people for being insufficiently secular and thus a danger to Democracy.
Quote from: Razgovory on October 12, 2015, 05:38:09 PM
Good for you. Why don't you go purge some people for being insufficiently secular and thus a danger to Democracy.
I think you're overestimating my power.
Quote from: DGuller on October 12, 2015, 05:46:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 12, 2015, 05:38:09 PM
Good for you. Why don't you go purge some people for being insufficiently secular and thus a danger to Democracy.
I think you're overestimating my power.
He sees the superhero avatar and goes from there.
Quote from: DGuller on October 12, 2015, 05:46:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on October 12, 2015, 05:38:09 PM
Good for you. Why don't you go purge some people for being insufficiently secular and thus a danger to Democracy.
I think you're overestimating my power.
Okay, now while I agree that things JR mentioned are bad. But there caveats: 1, none have much to do with installing an Islamic state. 2. These are the typical crimes of Turkish leadership. The CHP and Kemalist leaders have committed similar crimes. If the CHP was in charge and was doing the same thing, I don't think you or anyone else would be overly concerned with it.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/10/turkey-armenian-kurds-minorities-forced-to-be-turkish.html#ixzz3oMpLFwtv
Fuck the middle east. Hopefully when the entire region is ashes civilized people can move in.
Quote from: Queequeg on October 13, 2015, 03:05:57 AM
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/10/turkey-armenian-kurds-minorities-forced-to-be-turkish.html#ixzz3oMpLFwtv
Fuck the middle east. Hopefully when the entire region is ashes civilized people can move in.
Why would civilized people wish to live on ashen terrain?