Many killed in Ankara bomb blast

[Eddie Teach]

It wasn't until 2013 that Putin took his gloves off and let everyone know that the pretense was up,

Eh, he invaded Georgia in 2008.

[DGuller]

Okay, so what exactly has Erdogan touched off?  What fruits are there of his alleged Islamic fundamentalism?  I'm not seeing anything.  Are you going to show me something real?  After a while (and it has been a while), people might suspect that this Fascist/Islamic is but a figment of your imagination.

Not worth any more of my time.

[DGuller]

It wasn't until 2013 that Putin took his gloves off and let everyone know that the pretense was up,

Eh, he invaded Georgia in 2008.

Not really related to domestic issues.  Russia has been waging a low-level warfare against Georgia ever since USSR broke up.

[Razgovory]

Okay, so what exactly has Erdogan touched off?  What fruits are there of his alleged Islamic fundamentalism?  I'm not seeing anything.  Are you going to show me something real?  After a while (and it has been a while), people might suspect that this Fascist/Islamic is but a figment of your imagination.

Not worth any more of my time.

Oh, it doesn't take long to write "nothing".  We've argued a long time.  I'm asking you to put up or shut up.  If you got something, put it out.  Or is it because I ask for something concrete your time suddenly because vastly more important.  We can't just start offing people because you think that 20 years down the line he might turn out to be Hitler.

[DGuller]

We've argued a long time.

Yes, that is precisely the point.  We're argued for a long time and haven't gotten anywhere.  To continue on now and "put up" would require me to make a long time researching what I would post, to make sure that I don't say anything inaccurate and give you an opening.  Given how the conversation went so far, I know that you'll ask me to put up again later, and later, and later.  At some point I would have to cut bait, so I may as well do it now. 

I'm not giving up on the argument, I'm giving up on my further participation in this discussion.  There are other people who share my view (actually it looks like everyone who's not you), so maybe one of them can continue on.  Though, really, it's not worth it.

[Razgovory]

Okay, no concrete facts.  Just tell me this: What makes you Feel this way about Turkey and that dingbat who likes to photographed with Ottoman solider cosplayers?

[Queequeg]

that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.

And again you're making this up.  The source of animus is that Erdogan is becoming a fascist dictator, and is fanning the flames of Islamic extremism to get there.  The reason some people are sad to see the Turkish military defanged is that it would most certainly be the lesser evil than what Erdogan has become.  That however does not mean that him defanging the military is what all this is about.

In order to label Erdogan as Fascist you have to expand the definition of Fascism way, way beyond any previous definition.

Turkey actually has a lot o Fascists.  The CHP has Fascists.  The MHP are basically Nazis.  The AKP aren't really Fascists.  Erdogan has completely gone off the rails, and clearly looks to Putin as a model of transforming a formally democratic system in to a presidential post-democracy but that's not Fascism in any strict sense.

[Syt]

It appears Prime Minister Davutoglu claims that the attack was either done by IS, PKK, or left wing extremists. That narrows it down.

[Liep]

It appears Prime Minister Davutoglu claims that the attack was either done by IS, PKK, or left wing extremists. That narrows it down.

One newspaper is running with Assad ordered the attack and supported the PKK in doing it.

[Tamas]

The Middle East is truly turning into chaos and oblivion if the version of  Israel doing the bombing is not the most prominent yet.

[Razgovory]

that Erdogan suppressed military (which has overthrown the countries government something like four times) as the source of the animus rings a bit hollow.

And again you're making this up.  The source of animus is that Erdogan is becoming a fascist dictator, and is fanning the flames of Islamic extremism to get there.  The reason some people are sad to see the Turkish military defanged is that it would most certainly be the lesser evil than what Erdogan has become.  That however does not mean that him defanging the military is what all this is about.

In order to label Erdogan as Fascist you have to expand the definition of Fascism way, way beyond any previous definition.

Turkey actually has a lot o Fascists.  The CHP has Fascists.  The MHP are basically Nazis.  The AKP aren't really Fascists.  Erdogan has completely gone off the rails, and clearly looks to Putin as a model of transforming a formally democratic system in to a presidential post-democracy but that's not Fascism in any strict sense.

Yeah, there are explicitly Fascist and Islamist parties.  Erdogan's party isn't one of them.  They are part of an international coalition of conservative parties that include the GOP, and the Tories.  I imagine that a large part of the Ergdogan's success is that he's been liberalizing the economy and people have seen considerable economic growth as a result.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_of_European_Conservatives_and_Reformists

[The Minsky Moment]

David Cameron doesn't engage in corruption  and then have the investigating police force fired.  He doesn't order the routine jailing of journalists who criticize him. He doesn't give speeches about the natural inferiority of women.   He doesn't restart the Irish troubles to get a few extra Conservative votes.  He doesn't seek to overturn the British constitution.  He didn't hit up the taxpayer to swap 10 Downing street for a massive palace three times the size of Versailles.   He doesn't say insane things about over interest rate lobbies and twitter conspiracies, or claims about early medieval Cornishmen discovering America.

His party may be in same rubber chicken circuit as the Tories but they are not equivalent

[Queequeg]

Just to be clear, I'm not defending Erdogan at all, I just think that calling him Fascism is an obvious error.  Putin, today, comes very close to Fascism, and Erdogan might be slouching towards it, but still isn't there.

[Valmy]

Just to be clear, I'm not defending Erdogan at all, I just think that calling him Fascism is an obvious error.  Putin, today, comes very close to Fascism, and Erdogan might be slouching towards it, but still isn't there.

I have to admit I thought Erdogan was looking to Putin as the new model. But Putin siding with the Alawites against good Sunnis may ultimately change that.

I have no idea what Erdogan's game is but I do know the corruption his regime has introduced has made him a hated man among the Turks I know.

[The Brain]

Just to be clear, I'm not defending Erdogan at all, I just think that calling him Fascism is an obvious error.  Putin, today, comes very close to Fascism, and Erdogan might be slouching towards it, but still isn't there.

My impression is that Putin isn't an idealist.