I would think that one way to approach the matter would be to draw comparison between the way that Jews were stigmatized in prewar Europe and the way Muslims are currently.
http://forward.com/articles/216119/dutch-muslim-students-resist-holocaust-education/#ixzz3WR7HOE7d
QuoteDutch Muslim Students Resist Holocaust Education
When Teacher 'Says Jews, Pupils Say Gaza'
A number of Dutch schools refrain from teaching about the Holocaust because of resistance from Muslim pupils, teachers told lawmakers.
The centrist Christian Union party held a roundtable discussion about Holocaust education with teachers and other professionals Wednesday in parliament in The Hague, The Algemeen Dagblad daily reported.
"Holocaust survivor Bloeme Evers does not dare give guest lessons in some schools," Arie Slob, the party's parliamentary leader and a former history teacher, told the daily , describing the discussion. "I am horrified by this. It is unacceptable that 70 years after the Holocaust, anti-Semitism in the Netherlands is growing."
Among the teachers in attendance was Wissam Feriani, a social studies teacher who works at a vocational high school in Amsterdam where approximately half of the students are Muslim.
"The teacher says Jews, the pupils say Gaza," said Feriani, who is Muslim. "The teacher says Holocaust, the pupils say it's all bullshit." In class, he adds, "It's always the Jews' fault. Some pupils say they [Jews] don't belong. It's difficult." There are no available figures on the difficulties examined, the report said.
Separately, Dutch police in the North Holland district are investigating a collector of World War II-era memorabilia who advertised on a Dutch website bars of soap that the seller said were made of human fat that Nazis had extracted from Jews murdered in the Holocaust. Forensic scientists sent the soap to be tested for human remains, the De Telegraaf daily reported on Wednesday.
Stories about the mass production of human soap, popular and believed to be credible in the years immediately after the Holocaust, were later debunked by Raul Hilberg, an Austrian historian and expert on the Holocaust, who traced the myth to rumors that circulated among Polish Jews in 1942.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 07, 2015, 12:51:27 AM
I would think that one way to approach the matter would be to draw comparison between the way that Jews were stigmatized in prewar Europe and the way Muslims are currently.
This worked so well in the US when trying to get black people to support gay rights. ;)
Well punish the "some pupils." I don't recall having right in school to disrupt class / say bigoted things.
Quote from: garbon on April 07, 2015, 01:20:43 AM
Well punish the "some pupils." I don't recall having right in school to disrupt class / say bigoted things.
Yes, there is nothing better to convince teenagers to have the right views as punishing them for voicing the wrong ones.
I am beginning to think your decision not to have kids is evolution in action. ;)
Yes because clearly the best course of action when students act up is to just let them win the day. Best to just cower and not try to teach them about things that they don't want to hear about.
Quote from: garbon on April 07, 2015, 01:41:26 AM
Yes because clearly the best course of action when students act up is to just let them win the day. Best to just cower and not try to teach them about things that they don't want to hear about.
Good that noone is advocating it then!
Quote from: Martinus on April 07, 2015, 01:37:13 AM
Quote from: garbon on April 07, 2015, 01:20:43 AM
Well punish the "some pupils." I don't recall having right in school to disrupt class / say bigoted things.
Yes, there is nothing better to convince teenagers to have the right views as punishing them for voicing the wrong ones.
I am beginning to think your decision not to have kids is evolution in action. ;)
You are presenting a false dichotomy.
Plus, you also have chosen (or been impelled by the forces of evolution to choose) not to have kids, correct? :P
He just hasn't met the right girl.
Actually, D. wants to have kids. I think it's nonsense.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lockergnome.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F05%2Fhal-9000.jpg&hash=28c410cd53b3c99f2fe4de6e9197d65a9dcd27b8)
"I'm sorry, Dawe, I'm afraid I can't do that."
:lol:
Too much. :D
Quote from: Martinus on April 07, 2015, 06:52:59 AM
Actually, D. wants to have kids. I think it's nonsense.
He just wants the next generation of Poles to be raised by good right thinking people like yourself.
Okay, Tim. You go to the Netherlands and tell these muslim students how they're a lot like Jews. Just make sure we have your dental records beforehand.
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2015, 08:06:23 AM
Okay, Tim. You go to the Netherlands and tell these muslim students how they're a lot like Jews. Just make sure we have your dental records beforehand.
Holy deliberately misunderstanding an argument, Batman!
Besides, I don't think anyone needs to tell a Muslim how much like Jews they are, especially Muslim men. They are reminded every time they take a piss or make a meal.
Quote from: garbon on April 07, 2015, 01:20:43 AM
Well punish the "some pupils." I don't recall having right in school to disrupt class / say bigoted things.
Yep.
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2015, 08:06:23 AM
Okay, Tim. You go to the Netherlands and tell these muslim students how they're a lot like Jews. Just make sure we have your dental records beforehand.
Holy deliberately misunderstanding an argument, Batman!
Besides, I don't think anyone needs to tell a Muslim how much like Jews they are, especially Muslim men. They are reminded every time they take a piss or make a meal.
We could also introduce them to Siege.
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 08:26:57 AM
Besides, I don't think anyone needs to tell a Muslim how much like Jews they are, especially Muslim men. They are reminded every time they take a piss or make a meal.
How do you know that?
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2015, 08:39:13 AM
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 08:26:57 AM
Besides, I don't think anyone needs to tell a Muslim how much like Jews they are, especially Muslim men. They are reminded every time they take a piss or make a meal.
How do you know that?
Have someone explain "kosher/halal" and "circumcision" to you, then you will understand how I know. :smarty:
I think that's your other-ization of Jews and Mooselimbs talking, g.
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2015, 10:16:20 AM
I think that's your other-ization of Jews and Mooselimbs talking, g.
:lmfao: I was just speaking of this yesterday with a Jewish holocaust survivor and a Muslim refugee from Yemen. I think you are projecting; both of the features I mentioned are actual features of those religions, not some generalized 'other" with which you seem to brand Jews and Muslims (and who knows who else).
But, please, continue with your bogus psychobabble. it makes a refreshing change from the bullshit political babble.
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 11:42:48 AM
:lmfao: I was just speaking of this yesterday with a Jewish holocaust survivor and a Muslim refugee from Yemen.
Were both of them circumcised?
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 11:42:48 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2015, 10:16:20 AM
I think that's your other-ization of Jews and Mooselimbs talking, g.
:lmfao: I was just speaking of this yesterday with a Jewish holocaust survivor and a Muslim refugee from Yemen. I think you are projecting; both of the features I mentioned are actual features of those religions, not some generalized 'other" with which you seem to brand Jews and Muslims (and who knows who else).
But, please, continue with your bogus psychobabble. it makes a refreshing change from the bullshit political babble.
"Some of my best friends are Jews and Yemeni Muslims" :rolleyes:
Keep digging, g.
I'm sure this wasn't the case when grumbler sailed over on the Mayflower, but it's actually quite common for Americans of non-Jewish, non-Muslim descent to be circumcised. It's neither a source of shared identity nor something one thinks about every time they piss.
I am circumcised and once went through a phase where I didn't eat pork. OMG I'M SO MUCH LIKE A JEWSLIM
The more significant issue is that having similarities does not necessarily breed empathy.
Religious Jews, Muslims and Christians all know they share the same god, but historically it hasn't made them empatize with each other much, exactly - other than that Muslim "people of the book" thing, by which Muslims agree to not kill Jews & Christians who agree to take second-class status. ;) Not sure sharing food and circumcision rituals would do more for inter-communial empathy than sharing a god.
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2015, 12:18:19 PM
I once went through a phase where I didn't eat pork.
What were you punishing yourself for? :huh:
QuoteThe more significant issue is that having similarities does not necessarily breed empathy.
Religious Jews, Muslims and Christians all know they share the same god, but historically it hasn't made them empatize with each other much, exactly - other than that Muslim "people of the book" thing, by which Muslims agree to not kill Jews & Christians who agree to take second-class status. ;) Not sure sharing food and circumcision rituals would do more for inter-communial empathy than sharing a god.
I dunno.
Christians have always tended to treat Jews better than Pagans.
They were still scum but not quite of the kill them on sight variety. Usually.
Quote from: Martinus on April 07, 2015, 12:56:41 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 07, 2015, 12:51:27 AM
I would think that one way to approach the matter would be to draw comparison between the way that Jews were stigmatized in prewar Europe and the way Muslims are currently.
This worked so well in the US when trying to get black people to support gay rights. ;)
The civil rights/gay rights parallel is painfully bad.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 07, 2015, 07:03:46 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lockergnome.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F05%2Fhal-9000.jpg&hash=28c410cd53b3c99f2fe4de6e9197d65a9dcd27b8)
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that."
Classic! :D
Quote from: Tyr on April 07, 2015, 12:54:36 PM
The civil rights/gay rights parallel is painfully bad.
It's infinitely better than the Muslims/Holocaust one.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 07, 2015, 12:48:39 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2015, 12:18:19 PM
I once went through a phase where I didn't eat pork.
What were you punishing yourself for? :huh:
I was only eating chicken and fish (plus the occasional lean steak). Happened to be one of the healthiest phases of my life, now that I think of it :hmm:
Quote from: Tyr on April 07, 2015, 12:54:36 PM
I dunno.
Christians have always tended to treat Jews better than Pagans.
They were still scum but not quite of the kill them on sight variety. Usually.
I dunno about that. Jew-hatred runs pretty deep and consistent in Christian civilization.
Not sure pagan-hatred can compare - Christians were as likely to try to convert them, as to kill them.
Jews were notoriously resistant to conversion and so subject to the "kill" option, or 'merely' to forced exile (Spain, England) or to internal exile in 'ghettos' (a term coined for Jews!) - subject always to the occasional pogrom, and culminating in the Holocaust.
Technically speaking, the term ghetto was not coined for Jews. :nerd:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2015, 01:50:25 PM
Technically speaking, the term ghetto was not coined for Jews. :nerd:
?
Quote from: Tyr on April 07, 2015, 12:54:36 PM
QuoteThe more significant issue is that having similarities does not necessarily breed empathy.
Religious Jews, Muslims and Christians all know they share the same god, but historically it hasn't made them empatize with each other much, exactly - other than that Muslim "people of the book" thing, by which Muslims agree to not kill Jews & Christians who agree to take second-class status. ;) Not sure sharing food and circumcision rituals would do more for inter-communial empathy than sharing a god.
I dunno.
Christians have always tended to treat Jews better than Pagans.
They were still scum but not quite of the kill them on sight variety. Usually.
Paul's teachings were in large part about adapting Christianity to be more saleable to the Pagans so that they could be more easily converted.
Quote from: Malthus on April 07, 2015, 01:58:15 PM
?
When Jews were granted the right to reside in Venice, they settled near an abandoned ironworks. Ghetto is Italian for ironworks.
So the word was not coined for Jews. It already existed.
If you don't have discipline in school every little thing becomes a major problem. If students who disrupt classes were punished then this problem would go away.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2015, 02:05:38 PM
Quote from: Malthus on April 07, 2015, 01:58:15 PM
?
When Jews were granted the right to reside in Venice, they settled near an abandoned ironworks. Ghetto is Italian for ironworks.
So the word was not coined for Jews. It already existed.
Not what I read.
I read that the word *may* have derived from a number of possible sources - in fact, no-one knows for sure.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ghetto
Quote1610s, "part of a city in which Jews are compelled to live," especially in Italy, from Italian ghetto "part of a city to which Jews are restricted," of unknown origin. The various theories trace it to: Yiddish get "deed of separation;" a special use of Venetian getto "foundry" (there was one near the site of that city's ghetto in 1516); a clipped form of Egitto "Egypt," from Latin Aegyptus (presumably in memory of the exile); or Italian borghetto "small section of a town" (diminutive of borgo, which is of Germanic origin; see borough)
Quote from: DGuller on April 07, 2015, 12:09:36 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 11:42:48 AM
:lmfao: I was just speaking of this yesterday with a Jewish holocaust survivor and a Muslim refugee from Yemen.
Were both of them circumcised?
They both believed that they were. BTW, is Obama circumcised?
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2015, 12:11:17 PM
"Some of my best friends are Jews and Yemeni Muslims" :rolleyes:
Then you'd know what circumcision was and what kosher and halal meant. I think you are pulling this shit outta your ass.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on April 07, 2015, 12:13:58 PM
I'm sure this wasn't the case when grumbler sailed over on the Mayflower, but it's actually quite common for Americans of non-Jewish, non-Muslim descent to be circumcised. It's neither a source of shared identity nor something one thinks about every time they piss.
Key word in bold. We aren't talking about Americans in the Netherlands. :contract:
Quote from: The Brain on April 07, 2015, 02:11:17 PM
If you don't have discipline in school every little thing becomes a major problem. If students who disrupt classes were punished then this problem would go away.
I think it has more to do with the ethnicity and religion of the children than school discipline in general. I'd find it hard to believe that white Nazi kids could get away with the same type of thing.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2015, 12:57:22 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 07, 2015, 12:54:36 PM
The civil rights/gay rights parallel is painfully bad.
It's infinitely better than the Muslims/Holocaust one.
really? You think that gays are more like blacks than antisemitism is like anti-islamism (yeah, technically anti-islamism is largely antisemitic as well so long as the Muslims are Arabs, but I don't think anyone uses antisemitic that way)?
I disagree.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 07, 2015, 02:05:38 PM
When Jews were granted the right to reside in Venice, they settled near an abandoned ironworks. Ghetto is Italian for ironworks.
So the word was not coined for Jews. It already existed.
That's one of the theories. It's my favorite, but by no means proven.
Quote from: Ancient Demon on April 07, 2015, 02:26:52 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 07, 2015, 02:11:17 PM
If you don't have discipline in school every little thing becomes a major problem. If students who disrupt classes were punished then this problem would go away.
I think it has more to do with the ethnicity and religion of the children than school discipline in general. I'd find it hard to believe that white Nazi kids could get away with the same type of thing.
Selective discipline doesn't sound like discipline to me.
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: DGuller on April 07, 2015, 12:09:36 PM
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 11:42:48 AM
:lmfao: I was just speaking of this yesterday with a Jewish holocaust survivor and a Muslim refugee from Yemen.
Were both of them circumcised?
They both believed that they were. BTW, is Obama circumcised?
He's American, so probably. If you want more information, I think DGuller wanted to do some "research" on the subject.
And people say that Muslims aren't assimilating. They sound like goddamn Euros.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 07, 2015, 10:20:20 PM
And people say that Muslims aren't assimilating. They sound like goddamn Euros.
Euros are holocaust deniers? :hmm:
Any Euros on this board you think are holocaust deniers?
Quote from: Valmy on April 07, 2015, 10:22:03 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 07, 2015, 10:20:20 PM
And people say that Muslims aren't assimilating. They sound like goddamn Euros.
Euros are holocaust deniers? :hmm:
Any Euros on this board you think are holocaust deniers?
From the old Pdox boards we had a shit ton of "OMG GAZA!!!!!", asshats. I also came away with the feeling that Jews were not particularly welcome there. In fact, because the Israel discussion seemed to veer in to holocaust denial, regularly they had to close down any thread on the topic and very word "Israel" was verboten.
Many Swedes hate Jews with a passion and don't buy the holocaust theory.
You'd think anti-Semites would celebrate the Holocaust, not deny it. Guess it shows just how irrational they are.
Quote from: dps on April 08, 2015, 10:28:44 AM
You'd think anti-Semites would celebrate the Holocaust, not deny it. Guess it shows just how irrational they are.
How rational can you be when you worship Muhammed?
Quote from: The Brain on April 08, 2015, 09:47:27 AM
Many Swedes hate Jews with a passion and don't buy the holocaust theory.
:huh:
Quote from: KRonn on April 08, 2015, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 08, 2015, 09:47:27 AM
Many Swedes hate Jews with a passion and don't buy the holocaust theory.
:huh:
They were born in the Middle East and Africa. :secret:
Quote from: The Brain on April 08, 2015, 01:32:24 PM
Quote from: KRonn on April 08, 2015, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 08, 2015, 09:47:27 AM
Many Swedes hate Jews with a passion and don't buy the holocaust theory.
:huh:
They were born in the Middle East and Africa. :secret:
Hehe, got it. But I figured you also meant original Swedes.
Quote from: The Brain on April 08, 2015, 01:08:49 PM
Quote from: dps on April 08, 2015, 10:28:44 AM
You'd think anti-Semites would celebrate the Holocaust, not deny it. Guess it shows just how irrational they are.
How rational can you be when you worship Muhammed?
I don't think most Euros do that.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2015, 01:39:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 08, 2015, 01:08:49 PM
Quote from: dps on April 08, 2015, 10:28:44 AM
You'd think anti-Semites would celebrate the Holocaust, not deny it. Guess it shows just how irrational they are.
How rational can you be when you worship Muhammed?
I don't think most Euros do that.
Most of the anti-Semitic ones do.
The things people can get away with saying with Seedy gone. :lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2015, 01:39:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 08, 2015, 01:08:49 PM
Quote from: dps on April 08, 2015, 10:28:44 AM
You'd think anti-Semites would celebrate the Holocaust, not deny it. Guess it shows just how irrational they are.
How rational can you be when you worship Muhammed?
I don't think most Euros do that.
Elaborate.
He doesn't think most Euros worship Big Mo (PBUH)
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2015, 02:01:19 PM
He doesn't think most Euros worship Big Mo (PBUH)
Worst elaboration ever.
I'm a minimalist when it comes to elaboration.
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2015, 02:01:19 PM
He doesn't think most Euros worship Big Mo (PBUH)
Neither, in point of fact, do Muslims - European or not. :lol:
They sure seem to, whether they'd admit it or not. I say we go back to calling them Mohammedans.
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2015, 01:42:38 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2015, 01:39:34 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 08, 2015, 01:08:49 PM
Quote from: dps on April 08, 2015, 10:28:44 AM
You'd think anti-Semites would celebrate the Holocaust, not deny it. Guess it shows just how irrational they are.
How rational can you be when you worship Muhammed?
I don't think most Euros do that.
Most of the anti-Semitic ones do.
I'm sorry, but that is not true. First Muslims don't actually worship Muhammed, but whatever, the percentage of antisemitic people in Europe is much higher then Europe's Muslim population.
http://global100.adl.org/#map/weurope (http://global100.adl.org/#map/weurope) compare this to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country)
Muslims make up less then 7.5% of the population of France yet 37% of the population is antisemitic. So even if Every single Muslim in France hates Jews, it still requires a lot of Frenchmen to hate Jews to get to that number.
16% of Iceland is antisemitic but there are almost no Muslims in the country at all.
Still a minority.
Icelanders are not European. They are not even part of the EU.
They were also raided by Muslims and that probably left a mark.
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 03:45:06 PM
Icelanders are not European. They are not even part of the EU.
So are they North Americans then?
Quote from: grumbler on April 07, 2015, 08:26:57 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 07, 2015, 08:06:23 AM
Okay, Tim. You go to the Netherlands and tell these muslim students how they're a lot like Jews. Just make sure we have your dental records beforehand.
Holy deliberately misunderstanding an argument, Batman!
Besides, I don't think anyone needs to tell a Muslim how much like Jews they are, especially Muslim men. They are reminded every time they take a piss or make a meal.
Whoa, whoa, easy there cowboy. Jews and muslims are NOTHING alike.
Jewish circuncision is at 8 days old, muslim 13 years.
Kosher does not include camel milk, which muslims love, especially the one from the male camel.
Jews love peace, muslims love war.
Jews are technofiles, muslim are technophobic.
Jewish girls are hott, muslim girls are ugly, hairy, and smell due to poor hygene.
Jews are smart, muslims are smart bombs.
Jews.....you get the drift.
Ok the male camel one was good.
RIP Joe. :(
Quote from: Siege on April 08, 2015, 03:46:34 PM
Jews.....you get the drift.
Aye, Jews get to walk the plank. Arrr.
I've met some very nice looking Muslim girls.
Do they wear: lots & lots of makeup?
Not necessarily.
Quote from: Martinus on April 08, 2015, 03:45:06 PM
Icelanders are not European. They are not even part of the EU.
Poland was like 45% :lol: Germany, the country which you love so well was something like 27%.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2015, 02:19:04 PM
I'm sorry, but that is not true. First Muslims don't actually worship Muhammed, but whatever, the percentage of antisemitic people in Europe is much higher then Europe's Muslim population.
http://global100.adl.org/#map/weurope (http://global100.adl.org/#map/weurope) compare this to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country)
Muslims make up less then 7.5% of the population of France yet 37% of the population is antisemitic. So even if Every single Muslim in France hates Jews, it still requires a lot of Frenchmen to hate Jews to get to that number.
16% of Iceland is antisemitic but there are almost no Muslims in the country at all.
37% of the population of France is antisemitic? err no.
Anti semitic doesn't mean agreeing with a few loaded questions about whether Jews have a lot of power in business.
You're right. It's probably much higher.
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2015, 04:25:36 PM
Anti semitic doesn't mean agreeing with a few loaded questions about whether Jews have a lot of power in business.
AFAICT the questions were not asking whether Jews have a lot of power (which is after all just an empirical question) but rather if they have too much power.
Then why didn't you say so in the first place?
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2015, 04:37:14 PM
Then why didn't you say so in the first place?
I can recall two attractive Muslim chicks I've met. Both wore makeup, but neither caked it on.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2015, 04:38:52 PM
Quote from: derspiess on April 08, 2015, 04:37:14 PM
Then why didn't you say so in the first place?
I can recall two attractive Muslim chicks I've met. Both wore makeup, but neither caked it on.
Well now that I think of it, the only attractive Mooselimb girls I know wear very little makeup. They don't need it. But they're not of Ayrab lineage-- those are the ones that seem to be prone to caking it on. All or nuffin'.
The stereotype of Persian girls is that they are hott but high-maintenance. In my experience, there is some truth to that. ;)
Quote from: Siege on April 08, 2015, 03:46:34 PM
Whoa, whoa, easy there cowboy. Jews and muslims are NOTHING alike.
Jewish circuncision is at 8 days old, muslim 13 years.
Kosher does not include camel milk, which muslims love, especially the one from the male camel.
Jews love peace, muslims love war.
Jews are technofiles, muslim are technophobic.
Jewish girls are hott, muslim girls are ugly, hairy, and smell due to poor hygene.
Jews are smart, muslims are smart bombs.
Jews.....you get the drift.
Jews don't generalize about religious groups, Muslims do....
wait
Quote from: Malthus on April 08, 2015, 05:15:56 PM
The stereotype of Persian girls is that they are hott but high-maintenance. In my experience, there is some truth to that. ;)
I can think of many such stereotypes regarding attractive women.
Interesting tidbits from the ADL site. Iran is less antisemitic then Greece and Turkey, and it's probably the least antisemitic Muslim state. S. Korea has an absurdly high rate of antisemitism at 53%.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2015, 08:52:55 PM
S. Korea has an absurdly high rate of antisemitism at 53%.
Obviously Tim's influence at work.
I'm surprised people let Raz troll them so well. :lol:
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2015, 12:08:11 AM
I'm surprised people let Raz troll them so well. :lol:
You don't get off the hook on antisemitism now that you have Muslims hanging around.
:lol:
Quote from: Razgovory on April 09, 2015, 01:03:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2015, 12:08:11 AM
I'm surprised people let Raz troll them so well. :lol:
You don't get off the hook on antisemitism now that you have Muslims hanging around.
Martinus is not anti-semite. He is anti-religious.
That's why he hates me, for my jewish religion, not because of my jewish ethnicity.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 08, 2015, 08:52:55 PM
Interesting tidbits from the ADL site. Iran is less antisemitic then Greece and Turkey, and it's probably the least antisemitic Muslim state. S. Korea has an absurdly high rate of antisemitism at 53%.
53%?
Is this true?
I don't believe anything that comes out of your mouth, even if it's dripping.
You could always click his link you fucking meathead.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2015, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2015, 04:25:36 PM
Anti semitic doesn't mean agreeing with a few loaded questions about whether Jews have a lot of power in business.
AFAICT the questions were not asking whether Jews have a lot of power (which is after all just an empirical question) but rather if they have too much power.
It wouldn't necessarily be anti-semitic to agree with that. Its a pretty commonly repeated moan the world over that well connected rich old white dudes (of which Jews do make up a rather disproportionately large chunk) have too much power.
Quote from: Tyr on April 09, 2015, 08:03:47 PM
It wouldn't necessarily be anti-semitic to agree with that. Its a pretty commonly repeated moan the world over that well connected rich old white dudes (of which Jews do make up a rather disproportionately large chunk) have too much power.
What kind of survey questions would you be happy with?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 09, 2015, 08:06:13 PM
What kind of survey questions would you be happy with?
Is it right to shout "Gazan baby murderers!" when you see someone wearing a kippah? Are Jews bad people? Should Jewish cemeteries be vandalised?
Are you familiar with the concept of a false negative Squeeze?
Don't patronize me.
Far more relevant here is false positives. Looking at the link that was posted... Many of the questions are leading (consider that people are naturally inclined to agree in such situations too....) and worded in such a way to mean some Jewish people rather than all Jews.
Looking at the results..
Even in japan they have marked 23% as anti Semitic. I mean seriously? Id be surprised if even half of Japanese people had anything more than the vaguest idea of what a Jewish person is. Jews have absolutely nothing to do with their world. I doubt even 23% of Japanese care enough about foreign events (and take a pro humanity view) to be against Israel's bullshit yet alone being ignorant enough to equate that with all Jews.
No, that poll is clearly along the same lines as that news article from a few months back about there being a lot of anti semitism in the uk.... Which on further investigation proved to be made by an organization whose job it was to fight anti semitism and used stupid methodology.
The vast majority of Europeans don't give a shit about Jewish people at all. Especially secular Jews.
I don't understand why false positives are more relevant than false negatives.
I don't see any questions that referred to "some Jews." They all asked about "Jews."
How do you know what the vast majority of Europeans think about Jews?
Quote from: Tyr on April 09, 2015, 08:03:47 PM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 08, 2015, 04:35:04 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 08, 2015, 04:25:36 PM
Anti semitic doesn't mean agreeing with a few loaded questions about whether Jews have a lot of power in business.
AFAICT the questions were not asking whether Jews have a lot of power (which is after all just an empirical question) but rather if they have too much power.
It wouldn't necessarily be anti-semitic to agree with that. Its a pretty commonly repeated moan the world over that well connected rich old white dudes (of which Jews do make up a rather disproportionately large chunk) have too much power.
So it's not anti-semetic because you happen to believe it? :huh:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 09, 2015, 08:06:13 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 09, 2015, 08:03:47 PM
It wouldn't necessarily be anti-semitic to agree with that. Its a pretty commonly repeated moan the world over that well connected rich old white dudes (of which Jews do make up a rather disproportionately large chunk) have too much power.
What kind of survey questions would you be happy with?
They seem reasonable to me. I mean what form does antisemitism take? Jews as manipulators, Jews as traitors, Jews as greedy, etc. If you were to ask questions about blacks you would use different questions to reflect negative stereotypes associated with African Americans. Are blacks lazy? Are they stupid? Are they violent? etc.
By the way, how did Americans score on that poll?
9%.
Speaking of antisemitism, Marine Le Pen now wants to kick her father out of the party for his recent antisemitic interview.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 09, 2015, 08:50:18 PM
I don't understand why false positives are more relevant than false negatives
Because
A: that's what the poll is actually giving.
B: it's a lot worse to throw around labels like anti Semite with people that don't deserve them than to miss calling someone an anti Semite
Quote
I don't see any questions that referred to "some Jews
." They all asked about "Jews."
Exactly the problem.
"Jews hold too much power in business"- the only sensible way to jnterprate it is some Jews. Which is true and pretty uncontroversial. There are quite a few Jewish 1%ers.
Yet here they're taking someone shrugging and going "errr I guess" to this question as being a raging anti Semite who believes in the old tales of Jews all working together to dominate business on all levels.
Quote
How do you know what the vast majority of Europeans think about Jews?
I've lived there and seriously, in Europe Jews are a total non-issue. They aren't anywhere near as visible as in the US. Most don't even realise or care that our famous Jews are Jewish.
In more neutral polls where people are asked what the worlds problems are then maybe Israel will pop up sometimes but Jews? No.
23% makes sense I think. In Japan every day is Kristallnacht. Which is all kinds of fucked up.
Quote from: The Brain on April 10, 2015, 01:30:27 AM
23% makes sense I think. In Japan every day is Kristallnacht. Which is all kinds of fucked up.
Eh, the Japanese mostly admire the Jews for secretly running the world and want to emulate them.
I'm surprised by the Korean numbers, most Koreans I've talked are barely aware Jews exist.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2015, 01:41:16 AM
I'm surprised by the Korean numbers, most Koreans I've talked are barely aware Jews exist.
It is pretty obvious the fact that that poll claims 53% of South Koreans are anti-Semitic casts doubt on its viability. I mean that is just stupid.
Vaguely anti-semitic attitudes seem to be rampant in Argentina, but it mostly involves them being the butt of jokes. It's a relatively safe place for Jews unless some Iran-sponsored group gets in there and blows something up.
Quote from: Valmy on April 10, 2015, 11:18:03 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on April 10, 2015, 01:41:16 AM
I'm surprised by the Korean numbers, most Koreans I've talked are barely aware Jews exist.
It is pretty obvious the fact that that poll claims 53% of South Koreans are anti-Semitic casts doubt on its viability. I mean that is just stupid.
Is this because of your encyclopedic knowledge of anti-Semitism or your finger on the pulse of Korean life? It may be possible that the traditional pejoratives Europeans use are seen differently in East Asia then they are in Poland. For instance "are Jews more loyal to Israel then the country they live in" might very well be natural to Koreans who would expect Korean-Americans to be more loyal to Korea then the US. On the other hand, relentless negative press that Israel gets probably pushes up the numbers all over the world.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 10, 2015, 11:58:21 AM
Is this because of your encyclopedic knowledge of anti-Semitism or your finger on the pulse of Korean life?
Well for one South Korean government is one of the more pro-Israeli governments out there. Secondly, as Tim says, strong feelings about Jews does not really register in East Asia.
QuoteFor instance "are Jews more loyal to Israel then the country they live in" might very well be natural to Koreans who would expect Korean-Americans to be more loyal to Korea then the US.
So...not really a measure of anti-Jew prejudice then.
Quote from: Valmy on April 10, 2015, 12:03:28 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on April 10, 2015, 11:58:21 AM
Is this because of your encyclopedic knowledge of anti-Semitism or your finger on the pulse of Korean life?
Well for one South Korean government is one of the more pro-Israeli governments out there. Secondly, as Tim says, strong feelings about Jews does not really register in East Asia.
QuoteFor instance "are Jews more loyal to Israel then the country they live in" might very well be natural to Koreans who would expect Korean-Americans to be more loyal to Korea then the US.
So...not really a measure of anti-Jew prejudice then.
I only suggested it was possible. You can see how it breaks down here http://global100.adl.org/#country/south-korea One thing I've read is that both Japan and S. Korea just eat up Western Conspiracy theories. Since many of those depict Jews as monstrous manipulators this might have influence Korean impressions. Simply because some of the result of the poll are surprising doesn't mean the poll is wrong.
Quote from: derspiess on April 10, 2015, 11:45:29 AM
Vaguely anti-semitic attitudes seem to be rampant in Argentina, but it mostly involves them being the butt of jokes. It's a relatively safe place for Jews unless some Iran-sponsored group gets in there and blows something up.
Latin America is very anti-semitic, not just because of the traditionl catholic view on jews, but also because of the inroads muslim immigrants have achieved in the region.
Thing is, the polls do not really register how much the people polled care or know about the folks they are asked about.
If you have only vaguely heard of Jews before - and the only thing you know about them is a third-hand account of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - you would rank as "anti-semitic", even though in reality, you could not really care less about Jews and never gave the topic of Jews a second thought.
The Korean Fan Death thing still fascinates me.
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2015, 01:11:38 AM
Exactly the problem.
"Jews hold too much power in business"- the only sensible way to jnterprate it is some Jews. Which is true and pretty uncontroversial. There are quite a few Jewish 1%ers.
Yet here they're taking someone shrugging and going "errr I guess" to this question as being a raging anti Semite who believes in the old tales of Jews all working together to dominate business on all levels.
So presumably a poll of sensible people would result in 100% yes answers to this question.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on April 10, 2015, 12:32:02 PM
Quote from: Tyr on April 10, 2015, 01:11:38 AM
Exactly the problem.
"Jews hold too much power in business"- the only sensible way to jnterprate it is some Jews. Which is true and pretty uncontroversial. There are quite a few Jewish 1%ers.
Yet here they're taking someone shrugging and going "errr I guess" to this question as being a raging anti Semite who believes in the old tales of Jews all working together to dominate business on all levels.
So presumably a poll of sensible people would result in 100% yes answers to this question.
Tyr-sensible people, or human-sensible people? Two mutually exclusive groups.
Oh, and I'd be real careful using ADL stats on antisemitism, given that they have a vested interest in finding antisemitism wherever it could even implausibly be found. It's their raison d'etre. It's like believing Al Sharpton stats on racism, or CC on the value of novels as historical evidence.
I doubt there's any denying anti-semitism on the whole is rising in Europe.
And it's not just based on Muslim immigration.
It's a sad development. One we should try to resist. But the anti-Israel crowd often draw pure anti-semitists to itself.
On a side note, it'd be nice to acknowledge Muslims are faced with widescale discrimination here as well.
Quote from: Norgy on April 10, 2015, 01:11:05 PM
On a side note, it'd be nice to acknowledge Muslims are faced with widescale discrimination here as well.
Yeah but I hope that is different. That it is because of their immigrant status and it will fade in time. We will see.
I'm sure people will start liking Muslims when Muslims stop killing people over cartoons. :)
Quote from: The Brain on April 10, 2015, 03:39:23 PM
I'm sure people will start liking Muslims when Muslims stop killing people over cartoons. :)
Sure today it is terrifying but once you get used to the Muslims it will just be a charming affectation.
Quote from: grumbler on April 10, 2015, 01:04:15 PM
Oh, and I'd be real careful using ADL stats on antisemitism, given that they have a vested interest in finding antisemitism wherever it could even implausibly be found. It's their raison d'etre. It's like believing Al Sharpton stats on racism, or CC on the value of novels as historical evidence.
:rolleyes: I guess I'll put you down for "Jews talk about the Holocaust to much".
Quote from: The Brain on April 10, 2015, 03:39:23 PM
I'm sure people will start liking Muslims when Muslims stop killing people over cartoons. :)
Signs point to no.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 09, 2015, 01:03:04 AM
Quote from: Martinus on April 09, 2015, 12:08:11 AM
I'm surprised people let Raz troll them so well. :lol:
You don't get off the hook on antisemitism now that you have Muslims hanging around.
Yeah. The line from the Jeffrey Goldberg piece in the Atlantic sticks with me, of how many words European anti-semitism has pushed into our languages: ghetto, inquisition, auto-da-fe, blood libel, pogrom, Holocaust.
I don't think we can just shrug our shoulders and point to an already unpopular minority for being the cause of anti-semitism in Europe - the worst polled country, after all, is Greece.
While it's absolutely true most anti-semitic attacks are by Muslim Europeans, again as Goldberg pointed out, it is striking that they're using the language neo-Nazis probably used to abuse their parents: 'heil Hitler' not 'Allahu akbar'. And I find it fascinating that in all of the varied slanders and hates spewed from the Muslim world towards the Jews over the last century there's still no better seller than the Protocols.
Similarly the impression I got from reading The French Intifada was that the anti-semitism in France now was a fusion of two pre-existing strands, one that was a sort of naive Muslim anti-semitism (I'm reminded of Shoah when the Polish woman says the Jews smelled and he presses why did the Jews smell, she replied 'because they worked in the tanneries') with the rather more sophisticated and murderous anti-semitism of Europe - in this case Vichy.
This isn't European anti-semitism but we're implicated and attacks are happening again where they rhyme.
QuoteNo, that poll is clearly along the same lines as that news article from a few months back about there being a lot of anti semitism in the uk.... Which on further investigation proved to be made by an organization whose job it was to fight anti semitism and used stupid methodology.
Last year there was a record number of anti-semitic attacks on Jews. A quarter of British Jews have considered leaving because of it and half no longer think there is a future for Jewish life in Britain. This is problem we must deal with.
Those figures should be worrying. Generally life in Britain is safe and generally Britain has probably been the best place in Europe to be a Jew.
QuoteThey aren't anywhere near as visible as in the US. Most don't even realise or care that our famous Jews are Jewish.
This is the tragedy of it and why the right-wing/French option is wrong.
That's a sad thing that we do not have visible Jewish life in the way the US does. I think there is more fear of living openly as a Jew. Our synagogues are now very often guarded and it is impossible to imagine many performing outdoor services.
The answer that is proposed to the Muslim anti-semitism is self-effacement. That they also cease to live openly as Muslims and stop performing outdoor services. We're saying that they should become like those impeccably German Jewish doctors in the 19th century. Of course the inassimilational quality of Muslims does also echo the old position towards the Jews. I don't think it'll work and I don't think it's right.
We need (and I think I'm seeing it starting in Britain) hyphenisation. We need to become comfortable as nations of minorities. I'm an optimist - about the UK or about London at least - and I think it will happen because there's no alternative. It's just sad what may happen on the way.
QuoteIt's a sad development. One we should try to resist. But the anti-Israel crowd often draw pure anti-semitists to itself.
Yep. It's depressing beyond measure to see this happen on the left.
But again Sheilbh you are conflating two things in a classic example of moral equivalency.
Muslim immigrants attacking Jews is one thing - Europeans being antisemitic is another. No matter how you slice it, physical violence vs. holding prejudiced and silly views are two completely different things.
People hold prejudiced, stupid views about a lot of groups of people - these prejudices can be based on ethnicity, religion (or lack thereof), gender, sexuality, nationality, profession and so on and so forth. You can educate people about this but such prejudices do and will exist and can never be fully eradicated - it's just the natural of human mind that it tends to divide people into us vs. them and judge people accordingly. But in most cases this prejudice does not lead to violence.
So yeah, the bottom line is this - racism, antisemitism, homophobia and other form of prejudice exist in both Europe and America. But right now only some of these lead to violence and deaths - namely, Muslim anti-Jewish and anti-gay violence in Europe and anti-black violence (often perpetrated by agents of the state) in America. These are the problems that require immediate attention before we start getting into "soft" prejudice.
People can hold whatever retarded ideas they want. Anti-semitism, Catholicism, Islam, Communism... As long as they don't hurt other people I kind of don't give a fuck.
You don't have a right not to be hated.
Quote from: The Brain on April 11, 2015, 02:31:03 AM
People can hold whatever retarded ideas they want. Anti-semitism, Catholicism, Islam, Communism... As long as they don't hurt other people I kind of don't give a fuck.
You don't have a right not to be hated.
Yup. But some people (especially certain portions of the left - but also some religious right) seem to conflate prejudice with violence.
It is a good thing that the nice white European antisemitism cannot lead to violence against jews.
Quote from: Martinus on April 11, 2015, 12:57:06 AM
Muslim immigrants attacking Jews is one thing - Europeans being antisemitic is another. No matter how you slice it, physical violence vs. holding prejudiced and silly views are two completely different things.
I don't think they are completely different things, though I'm not conflating the two. Both need to be ended.
I think European anti-semitism is of a different type than it has been historically. However I also think that European anti-semitism has informed and strengthened the bigotry of Muslim bigots. I think Europe has been, for the last thousand years, the ground zero of hating Jews and has to a large extent created modern anti-semitism. That they're a 'separate nation' with different loyalties, their control of the media, their control of high finance, their control of Communism, the blood libel all of these and many more are uniquely European contributions anti-semitism. I think it's become a toxic fusion in many Muslim-European communities (many of these crimes are committed by young people born here - they are European) of Muslim anti-semitism with our own insufficiently expurgated historical tradition.
I also think the more peaceable bigotries of white Europeans is what leads to a higher than normal tolerance of anti-semitism and a lack of urgency in dealing with it. We disguise it by thinking it's about Israel but I struggle to see what about Israel could ever lead to tolerance of attacks on Jews in Europe.
QuoteSo yeah, the bottom line is this - racism, antisemitism, homophobia and other form of prejudice exist in both Europe and America. But right now only some of these lead to violence and deaths - namely, Muslim anti-Jewish and anti-gay violence in Europe and anti-black violence (often perpetrated by agents of the state) in America. These are the problems that require immediate attention before we start getting into "soft" prejudice.
On the anti-gay front I wouldn't associate the violence with Muslims. The only recent, prominent gay-bashings that I can think of weren't religiously motivated. But they were informed by 'soft' prejudice which I do think we need to take on. I think we need to move beyond tolerance of each other's foibles however much we dislike them as people to acceptance. And I do find the fact that European synagogues often need guards incredibly depressing because it's happened and because it's not caused an outrage by the majority that's partly why I think the problem goes far beyond Muslim youths.
Quote from: The Brain on April 11, 2015, 02:31:03 AM
People can hold whatever retarded ideas they want. Anti-semitism, Catholicism, Islam, Communism... As long as they don't hurt other people I kind of don't give a fuck.
You don't have a right not to be hated.
I believe that Sweden has hate speech laws, so it appears you do have that right.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 11, 2015, 10:29:16 AM
Quote from: The Brain on April 11, 2015, 02:31:03 AM
People can hold whatever retarded ideas they want. Anti-semitism, Catholicism, Islam, Communism... As long as they don't hurt other people I kind of don't give a fuck.
You don't have a right not to be hated.
I believe that Sweden has hate speech laws, so it appears you do have that right.
Now you're just being silly.
Quote from: PDH on April 11, 2015, 08:39:33 AM
It is a good thing that the nice white European antisemitism cannot lead to violence against jews.
I think you're mistaken.
Quote from: Razgovory on April 10, 2015, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: The Brain on April 10, 2015, 03:39:23 PM
I'm sure people will start liking Muslims when Muslims stop killing people over cartoons. :)
Signs point to no.
Well the Muslims disagree or they would not be moving there.