This is about the word "kuffar" which I understand is Arabic for "infidel". Would you say it is insulting/offensive or is it just a description of a fact from the perspective of a believer?
I'm curious at Languish opinion. :)
Kuffar is about as insulting as kaffir.
Would you be insulted if someone were to call you a Goy?
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 21, 2015, 03:36:04 PM
Would you be insulted if someone were to call you a Goy?
Not really. And for the record I don't find infidel/kuffar offensive either. For me it's the same as me, as a non-religious person, calling religious persons naive. Some people apparently do find it offensive, though. I am just curious what Languish thinks.
I'm not offended.
"Kaffir" is pretty insulting in South Africa. But I don't mind being called an "infidel dog".
It's like when Marty calls me a "cretin". It's one of those quaint and inexplicable things people in the third world say.
Quote from: Norgy on January 21, 2015, 03:45:54 PM
"Kaffir" is pretty insulting in South Africa. But I don't mind being called an "infidel dog".
Dogs are cool. Not as cool as cats, but still.
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 21, 2015, 03:36:04 PM
Would you be insulted if someone were to call you a Goy?
Not really. And for the record I don't find infidel/kuffar offensive either. For me it's the same as me, as a non-religious person, calling religious persons naive. Some people apparently do find it offensive, though. I am just curious what Languish thinks.
"naive" is somewhat insulting, as it is making a judgment on someone else's beliefs.
"infidel"... I suppose you could make the argument that it's merely a statement of fact, with no judgment involved, but I don't buy it. I don't think it's a very useful word, and it is insulting. Hell even in a church service I've never heard the word used. When discussing people of differing beliefs it makes more sense to either properly identify them (i.e. call them muslims or jews), or go with a more neutral term like non-believer.
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 03:49:54 PM
Quote from: Norgy on January 21, 2015, 03:45:54 PM
"Kaffir" is pretty insulting in South Africa. But I don't mind being called an "infidel dog".
Dogs are cool. Not as cool as cats, but still.
QFT.
This is you most logical and factually correct statement of 2015 sofar. :)
I would imagine it could be insulting to people who are actually religious, but belong to different religions.
Quote from: mongers on January 21, 2015, 03:52:40 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 03:49:54 PM
Quote from: Norgy on January 21, 2015, 03:45:54 PM
"Kaffir" is pretty insulting in South Africa. But I don't mind being called an "infidel dog".
Dogs are cool. Not as cool as cats, but still.
QFT.
This is you most logical and factually correct statement of 2015 sofar. :)
:bowler:
Quote from: Barrister on January 21, 2015, 03:51:09 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 21, 2015, 03:36:04 PM
Would you be insulted if someone were to call you a Goy?
Not really. And for the record I don't find infidel/kuffar offensive either. For me it's the same as me, as a non-religious person, calling religious persons naive. Some people apparently do find it offensive, though. I am just curious what Languish thinks.
"naive" is somewhat insulting, as it is making a judgment on someone else's beliefs.
"infidel"... I suppose you could make the argument that it's merely a statement of fact, with no judgment involved, but I don't buy it. I don't think it's a very useful word, and it is insulting. Hell even in a church service I've never heard the word used. When discussing people of differing beliefs it makes more sense to either properly identify them (i.e. call them muslims or jews), or go with a more neutral term like non-believer.
I agree and context is all; if someone called my that to my face and with a degree of anger, I'd be tempted to issue a 2015-like Papal injunction. :D
I wish Brits would have known the "context" of this thread. :(
Quote from: Barrister on January 21, 2015, 03:51:09 PM
"naive" is somewhat insulting, as it is making a judgment on someone else's beliefs.
"infidel"... I suppose you could make the argument that it's merely a statement of fact, with no judgment involved, but I don't buy it. I don't think it's a very useful word, and it is insulting. Hell even in a church service I've never heard the word used. When discussing people of differing beliefs it makes more sense to either properly identify them (i.e. call them muslims or jews), or go with a more neutral term like non-believer.
Wouldn't a Christian use the word "heathen" instead?
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on January 21, 2015, 04:09:20 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 21, 2015, 03:51:09 PM
"naive" is somewhat insulting, as it is making a judgment on someone else's beliefs.
"infidel"... I suppose you could make the argument that it's merely a statement of fact, with no judgment involved, but I don't buy it. I don't think it's a very useful word, and it is insulting. Hell even in a church service I've never heard the word used. When discussing people of differing beliefs it makes more sense to either properly identify them (i.e. call them muslims or jews), or go with a more neutral term like non-believer.
Wouldn't a Christian use the word "heathen" instead?
I don't think so - that word is I think reseved for people who don't worship the Judeo-Christian god (so Jews and Muslims can't really be 'heathens').
In its more informal sense, it simply means someone who is uncivilized.
Some day Infidel will actually die.
Infidel sounds very analogous to non-believer to me.
Not all Christians will recognize that Muslims worship the same god.
Anyway, my point was it's a much more common word in Christian jargon. I did a search in the King James bible which turns up 145 uses of heathen vs 2 uses of infidel.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2015, 04:24:05 PM
Infidel sounds very analogous to non-believer to me.
Yeah... like isn't it basically latin for non-believer?
Quote from: Jacob on January 21, 2015, 04:28:51 PM
Yeah... like isn't it basically latin for non-believer?
Not faithful, I would imagine.
It could also be a code for being in a gay neighbourhood of SF.
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 04:39:53 PM
It could also be a code for being in a gay neighbourhood of SF.
:hmm:
I think you really only have The Castro in SF. There is a gay strip in SoMa and plenty of lesbians in Bernal Heights but it would probably be a mistake to call those gay neighborhoods.
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 04:01:20 PM
I wish Brits would have known the "context" of this thread. :(
Pro-tip for context: Use the entire statement a person made rather then half.
Heretics are people who nominally believe in a particular faith, with specific deviations from the norm. Heathens are those who in general lack religious faith and more specifically do not belong to any recognized religion. Infidels are those who specifically abjure a faith, rather than adhere to a faith.
So, to me, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, a Nestorian is a heretic, Martinus is a heathen, and Malthus is an infidel vis a vis Christianity (and possible Judaism- how nominally Jew-ish are you, Malthus?).
Quote from: garbon on January 21, 2015, 04:43:48 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 04:39:53 PM
It could also be a code for being in a gay neighbourhood of SF.
:hmm:
I think you really only have The Castro in SF. There is a gay strip in SoMa and plenty of lesbians in Bernal Heights but it would probably be a mistake to call those gay neighborhoods.
In-Fidel - > Fidel Castro - > in Castro. :Embarrass:
Not a keeper Marty.
Not bad, Marti. Not bad.
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 04:54:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 21, 2015, 04:43:48 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 04:39:53 PM
It could also be a code for being in a gay neighbourhood of SF.
:hmm:
I think you really only have The Castro in SF. There is a gay strip in SoMa and plenty of lesbians in Bernal Heights but it would probably be a mistake to call those gay neighborhoods.
In-Fidel - > Fidel Castro - > in Castro. :Embarrass:
Ah I see. I think that's too convoluted. :P
Also from my line of reasoning it should be "in
the gay neighborhood of SF." -_-
Quote from: Scipio on January 21, 2015, 04:49:18 PM
Heretics are people who nominally believe in a particular faith, with specific deviations from the norm. Heathens are those who in general lack religious faith and more specifically do not belong to any recognized religion. Infidels are those who specifically abjure a faith, rather than adhere to a faith.
So, to me, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, a Nestorian is a heretic, Martinus is a heathen, and Malthus is an infidel vis a vis Christianity (and possible Judaism- how nominally Jew-ish are you, Malthus?).
Don't agree with the second definition - from a Christian perspective, what is a Hindu? I would say "heathen" (though the use may be insulting) as a Hindu isn't a believer in the same god as the Christian.
Jews in most sects don't recon Jewishness by belief. I'm a 'bad Jew' because I don't follow Jewish rituals, not because I don't believe in the Jewish god. :D
Quote from: Malthus on January 21, 2015, 04:57:25 PM
Quote from: Scipio on January 21, 2015, 04:49:18 PM
Heretics are people who nominally believe in a particular faith, with specific deviations from the norm. Heathens are those who in general lack religious faith and more specifically do not belong to any recognized religion. Infidels are those who specifically abjure a faith, rather than adhere to a faith.
So, to me, an Eastern Orthodox Christian, a Nestorian is a heretic, Martinus is a heathen, and Malthus is an infidel vis a vis Christianity (and possible Judaism- how nominally Jew-ish are you, Malthus?).
Don't agree with the second definition - from a Christian perspective, what is a Hindu? I would say "heathen" (though the use may be insulting) as a Hindu isn't a believer in the same god as the Christian.
Jews in most sects don't recon Jewishness by belief. I'm a 'bad Jew' because I don't follow Jewish rituals, not because I don't believe in the Jewish god. :D
Quote from: garbon on January 21, 2015, 04:57:01 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 04:54:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 21, 2015, 04:43:48 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 04:39:53 PM
It could also be a code for being in a gay neighbourhood of SF.
:hmm:
I think you really only have The Castro in SF. There is a gay strip in SoMa and plenty of lesbians in Bernal Heights but it would probably be a mistake to call those gay neighborhoods.
In-Fidel - > Fidel Castro - > in Castro. :Embarrass:
Ah I see. I think that's too convoluted. :P
Also from my line of reasoning it should be "in the gay neighborhood of SF." -_-
Yeah. If there is one English language mistake I make fairly often, it's misusing the/a. Unless I proofread the text before sending I always make a few of those. :P
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 04:54:21 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 21, 2015, 04:43:48 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 04:39:53 PM
It could also be a code for being in a gay neighbourhood of SF.
:hmm:
I think you really only have The Castro in SF. There is a gay strip in SoMa and plenty of lesbians in Bernal Heights but it would probably be a mistake to call those gay neighborhoods.
In-Fidel - > Fidel Castro - > in Castro. :Embarrass:
I lol'd.
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 03:33:20 PM
This is about the word "kuffar" which I understand is Arabic for "infidel". Would you say it is insulting/offensive or is it just a description of a fact from the perspective of a believer?
I'm curious at Languish opinion. :)
it is meant to be insulting. I am not insulted because I am a non believer, but others could be offended.
Infidel = infidelity, a negative trait, therefore infidel is offensive.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.thesun.co.uk%2Faidemitlum%2Farchive%2F01015%2FInfidel-Artwork_68_1015399a.jpg&hash=eea34e1e9cce20084c04b2096ee55ed793102fe2)
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.sharenator.com%2F125574.jpg&hash=3713e68898abca5039f967ed8b646c1b703017d2)
What we got here is a Crusader, caught in the vanity of his own religion.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wearysloth.com%2FGallery%2FActorsD%2F4235-14977.jpg&hash=e17c5409134a08974db3aa26915c746eaf0f424b)
Quote from: Siege on January 21, 2015, 05:27:20 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.thesun.co.uk%2Faidemitlum%2Farchive%2F01015%2FInfidel-Artwork_68_1015399a.jpg&hash=eea34e1e9cce20084c04b2096ee55ed793102fe2)
I liked that movie. :)
Quote from: Siege on January 21, 2015, 05:25:34 PM
Infidel = infidelity, a negative trait, therefore infidel is offensive.
Siegy's got it right--the term implies apostasy, not just non-belief, and is intended as an insult. OTOH, Muslims seem to often misuse it to apply to non-Muslims. So I wouldn't be insulted if a Muslim were to call me an infidel--I've never been a Muslim, so I'd find someone accusing me of having fallen away from that faith inaccurate, not insulting.
Quote from: dps on January 27, 2015, 01:26:16 PM
Quote from: Siege on January 21, 2015, 05:25:34 PM
Infidel = infidelity, a negative trait, therefore infidel is offensive.
Siegy's got it right--the term implies apostasy, not just non-belief, and is intended as an insult. OTOH, Muslims seem to often misuse it to apply to non-Muslims. So I wouldn't be insulted if a Muslim were to call me an infidel--I've never been a Muslim, so I'd find someone accusing me of having fallen away from that faith inaccurate, not insulting.
I think Muslims tend to use "kuffir" rather than "infidel".
Quote from: Jacob on January 27, 2015, 01:41:15 PM
Quote from: dps on January 27, 2015, 01:26:16 PM
Quote from: Siege on January 21, 2015, 05:25:34 PM
Infidel = infidelity, a negative trait, therefore infidel is offensive.
Siegy's got it right--the term implies apostasy, not just non-belief, and is intended as an insult. OTOH, Muslims seem to often misuse it to apply to non-Muslims. So I wouldn't be insulted if a Muslim were to call me an infidel--I've never been a Muslim, so I'd find someone accusing me of having fallen away from that faith inaccurate, not insulting.
I think Muslims tend to use "kuffir" rather than "infidel".
The Muslims I know tend to use the word "tall".
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 27, 2015, 01:44:12 PMThe Muslims I know tend to use the word "tall".
To describe dps?
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 21, 2015, 03:36:04 PM
Would you be insulted if someone were to call you a Goy?
Not really. And for the record I don't find infidel/kuffar offensive either. For me it's the same as me, as a non-religious person, calling religious persons naive. Some people apparently do find it offensive, though. I am just curious what Languish thinks.
Kaffir/kuffah is offensive because it was racist slang in South Africa and, to a lesser extent, the UK. It's not because it means infidel.
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2015, 02:38:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 21, 2015, 03:36:04 PM
Would you be insulted if someone were to call you a Goy?
Not really. And for the record I don't find infidel/kuffar offensive either. For me it's the same as me, as a non-religious person, calling religious persons naive. Some people apparently do find it offensive, though. I am just curious what Languish thinks.
Kaffir/kuffah is offensive because it was racist slang in South Africa and, to a lesser extent, the UK. It's not because it means infidel.
Kaffir and Kuffir are two different words with different etymologies, no? I mean, it's not like Afrikaans speaking South Africans had a reason to adopt the Arab word for "non-believer" to say mean things about Black people, is it?
Quote from: Jacob on January 27, 2015, 02:50:46 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2015, 02:38:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 21, 2015, 03:36:04 PM
Would you be insulted if someone were to call you a Goy?
Not really. And for the record I don't find infidel/kuffar offensive either. For me it's the same as me, as a non-religious person, calling religious persons naive. Some people apparently do find it offensive, though. I am just curious what Languish thinks.
Kaffir/kuffah is offensive because it was racist slang in South Africa and, to a lesser extent, the UK. It's not because it means infidel.
Kaffir and Kuffir are two different words with different etymologies, no? I mean, it's not like Afrikaans speaking South Africans had a reason to adopt the Arab word for "non-believer" to say mean things about Black people, is it?
Nope - same derivation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)#Etymology
I do however like the thought that racist Afrikaaners only do things for a reason.
Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2015, 03:05:37 PM
Nope - same derivation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)#Etymology
Interesting. Didn't know that.
It's a rather antiquated racist term in the UK now but I get the impression it was used a lot in the 60s and 70s.
Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2015, 03:05:37 PM
Quote from: Jacob on January 27, 2015, 02:50:46 PM
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2015, 02:38:27 PM
Quote from: Martinus on January 21, 2015, 03:37:53 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 21, 2015, 03:36:04 PM
Would you be insulted if someone were to call you a Goy?
Not really. And for the record I don't find infidel/kuffar offensive either. For me it's the same as me, as a non-religious person, calling religious persons naive. Some people apparently do find it offensive, though. I am just curious what Languish thinks.
Kaffir/kuffah is offensive because it was racist slang in South Africa and, to a lesser extent, the UK. It's not because it means infidel.
Kaffir and Kuffir are two different words with different etymologies, no? I mean, it's not like Afrikaans speaking South Africans had a reason to adopt the Arab word for "non-believer" to say mean things about Black people, is it?
Nope - same derivation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)#Etymology
Although...that section does clearly state that it lacks sources. :D
Suid Afrikaaner embassy chick in Lethal Weapon 2 was hot as shit. I would've Rorke's Drifted the fuck outta that.
Quote from: garbon on January 27, 2015, 03:10:16 PM
Although...that section does clearly state that it lacks sources. :D
I don't think it is particularly contentious: in any event, that is the origin commonly imputed to the word in various dictionaries.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=kaffir
http://www.finedictionary.com/kaffir.html
FWIW, this thread was inspired by a muslim using the word "Kuffar" to describe white Westerners.
Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2015, 03:22:41 PM
Quote from: garbon on January 27, 2015, 03:10:16 PM
Although...that section does clearly state that it lacks sources. :D
I don't think it is particularly contentious: in any event, that is the origin commonly imputed to the word in various dictionaries.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=kaffir
http://www.finedictionary.com/kaffir.html
Gotcha. Yeah I had seen that wiki thing but then was like if even wiki is flagging what it has written. :)
Quote from: Sheilbh on January 27, 2015, 03:08:15 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2015, 03:05:37 PM
Nope - same derivation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)#Etymology
Interesting. Didn't know that.
It's a rather antiquated racist term in the UK now but I get the impression it was used a lot in the 60s and 70s.
Yeah, I thought "kaffir" meant "cattle". At any rate, I knew it was used as a racist term for blacks by white South Africans; don't know where I got the idea that it meant cattle, but that would fit a racist usage.
Quote from: Martinus on January 27, 2015, 03:27:34 PM
FWIW, this thread was inspired by a muslim using the word "Kuffar" to describe white Westerners.
Okay. In that context I'd be inclined to say it's offensive/insulting.
Quote from: Malthus on January 27, 2015, 03:05:37 PM
Nope - same derivation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term)#Etymology
Huh :huh:
Interesting, I did not know that.