http://www.bbc.com/news/world-30381292
QuoteRevolution a distant memory as Egypt escalates repression
If you want to know what became of the revolution of 2011, which electrified Egypt and swept then-President Hosni Mubarak from power, you could talk to its leaders. Or try to. Some are in exile, and others in jail.
The award-winning liberal activist Asmaa Mahfouz is still at large, but far from free. She was recently banned from leaving the country.
"The regime is hostile towards the revolution," she says, "and is trying to erase it from history." Many here share that view.
Back in January 2011, Ms Mahfouz - then 26 years old - helped spark the uprising with a powerful video appeal.
"I, a girl, am going down to Tahrir Square, and I will stand alone," she said directly to the camera. "I will say no to corruption, no to this regime. Come with us and demand your rights." One week later many did, thronging the square and ultimately unseating Mubarak.
Almost four years on, she says the situation is far worse than during the three decades of his rule.
"When we protested under Mubarak we were beaten in the streets," Ms Mahfouz says. "Sometimes we were tortured. But now people are being killed, in the most brutal way."
"This is a regime that crushes anyone who opposes it or even thinks of opposing it."
We met Ms Mahfouz behind closed door at her parents' home. These days she and other revolutionaries are marginalised and often depicted in the Egyptian media as enemies of the state.
Mubarak's smile
When a Cairo court dropped criminal charges against Mubarak in connection with the killing of hundreds of protesters during the revolution in late November, the verdict was seen by many as a death sentence for the uprising.
The court refused to consider the case against the former military strongman because the charges were introduced late. Seven of his security officials were acquitted.
Amid cheering and jubilation in the courtroom, the normally grim-faced Mubarak allowed himself a smile, as well he might. Though the 86-year-old is still serving a three-year prison sentence for embezzlement - in a comfortable military hospital - his lawyer says he could soon be a free man.
Egypt's courts have so far failed to hold anyone responsible for the deaths of more than 800 protesters during the 18-day revolt. One local journalist suggested on Twitter that it would have to be chalked up to "mass suicide".
Within hours of Mubarak being cleared of complicity, angry crowds gave their own verdict on the streets. About 2,000 protesters gathered near Tahrir Square, the focus of the 2011 protests.
We saw a mixed group of liberals and Islamists chanting "the people want the end of the regime" - an anthem of the revolution. "It's just like 2011," one young man told me with a smile, "This is how it all began."
But, as he spoke, clouds of tear gas began to fill the warm night air. The security forces moved in with water cannon and fired birdshot, causing mayhem in downtown Cairo.
We heard live rounds being fired as we ran for cover - when you report on demonstrations in Egypt you do a lot of running. In the chaos that night two protesters were killed, though it is unlikely anyone will ever be held to account.
New 'pharaoh'
Egypt's new leader, Abdul Fattah al-Sisi, is using the playbook of the old regime. No surprise, perhaps, as he ran military intelligence for Hosni Mubarak.
It was he who ousted Mohammed Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's first democratically-elected president.
Mr Morsi's disastrous rule provoked mass protests in 2013. Mr Sisi, then the military's commander-in-chief, removed him in a coup - a word that still makes officials here bristle.
Mr Sisi's popularity soared and he was elected president in May this year. Some thought he would be "Mubarak-lite". The death toll here tells a different story.
Egypt's latest "pharaoh" speaks fondly of democracy while crushing dissent.
He has presided over a massive crackdown on the opposition. Human rights groups estimate that at least 1,400 demonstrators have been killed by security forces, and as many as 40,000 have been arrested - most of them Islamists. A security official has admitted to more than 20,000 being detained.
The Brotherhood is now banned, and labelled a terrorist group - though the authorities have provided little evidence.
In stark contrast to how Hosni Mubarak and his old guard have fared in court, Islamists have been sentenced to hang - on an industrial scale.
About 1,400 men have been given provisional death sentences in mass trials - the latest just last week. They were convicted of taking part in deadly riots.
Those condemned to death include teenagers, the handicapped and the dead.
Charges 'invented'
These days, attending a peaceful protest - or even passing by one - can land you in jail.
Under Egypt's draconian "protest law", gatherings of more than 10 people need permission from the authorities.
Several icons of the revolution are now behind bars for demonstrating. The prominent blogger Alaa Abdel Fattah is one of them.
"Every week they invent new charges against me," said the 33-year-old when we met in April. "The prosecutor keeps them in storage. Their intention is to send me to jail for a very long time."
Campaigning for change is a family affair. His sister Sanaa Seif, a 20-year-old student, is serving three years for protesting.
Their mother Laila Soueif, a veteran activist and mathematics professor, spends her time at court hearings and prison visits.
She says her son and daughter are safer in jail than on the streets, where police have shot dead so many.
"Almost every Friday some young people are killed," says Mrs Soueif, in her book-filled Cairo apartment. "Almost every time there are demonstrations at universities, someone is killed or loses an eye, and worse than that we have a growing number of disappeared. Some appear after a few months, having been tortured."
Protesters - both secular and Islamist - are not the only ones in the firing line. Human rights groups are facing growing restrictions and the threat of imprisonment. A vague new amendment on foreign funding means staff could be sentenced to life.
The doors are still open at the offices of the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights (EIPR) in a leafy Cairo suburb.
But this highly-respected campaign group - which managed to operate under Mubarak - says it may have to close within weeks. Some other organisations already have.
"They want to control the activities," says its director, Khaled Mansour. "Controlling funding is just an entry point for them to control our activities so they can come and say: 'You cannot work on torture, we are in war on terror,' or 'You cannot work on this because it will undermine public peace.'
"What is 'public peace'? They will never tell you. For them, public peace is public silence."
For this outspoken campaigner, the new Egypt is worse than the old one.
"Under Mubarak we had no hope of change," he says. "What is really bad is that in the last four years we had very high hopes and all of them were dashed. We wound up with more people in prison, more people being tortured, and more people detained."
'Restoring confidence'
Behind the massive blast walls at the interior ministry, we got the official response to allegations - from local and international human groups - of unprecedented repression by the state.
"The state is rebuilding itself and restoring the confidence of citizens, and has written a constitution that stresses many freedoms," says the Assistant Interior Minister for Human Rights, Gen Abu Bakr Abdul Karim. "If it's trying to be a police state, it wouldn't have done all this."
In spite of the growing death toll on the streets, Gen Abdul Karim insists the security forces are gentler than those elsewhere.
"When the protesters are violent, the security forces confront them according to the law," he says. "And the police don't deal with them as violently as in some other countries we see on TV."
It is hardly a proud boast for a country that claims to be embracing democracy. But many Egyptians support the government's heavy hand. They hanker for stability more than freedom.
Do not expect Western governments to do much about the escalating authoritarianism in the Arab world's most populous nation.
Egypt's peace treaty with Israel makes it an indispensible ally for the United States. And with chaos in Libya, Syria and Iraq, it is viewed as a bulwark of stability in the region.
Activists hoped for a very different outcome when they converged on Tahrir Square in 2011. They wanted fundamental reform and an end to oppression.
Instead, many say, only the president has changed here, not the regime.
Asmaa Mahfouz says Egypt is undergoing a counter-revolution. As the mother of an infant daughter, she is looking ahead with fear.
"I am trying to remain calm, I am trying to be optimistic for her," she says. "But if we continue like this, we are heading towards darkness. They are trying to kill our dreams."
"They hanker for stability more than freedom." => A common theme in many countries these days.
It is like how your ancestors felt in 1849 Syt.
The Arab Spring is a big disappointment.
Tunesia seems to have come out better, but the rest?
Egypt apparently is even more repressive than before. Syria, Yemen, and Libya fight outright civil wars. Bahrain is probably more repressive than before.
Be careful of what you wish for.
Gatherings of 10 need permission is a draconian law? In HK, that no. is 3 :lol:
3 or 10 or 300, the point is you don't have freedom of assembly.
Hey, it's what you people wanted.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 13, 2014, 07:54:55 PM
3 or 10 or 300, the point is you don't have freedom of assembly.
I also have freedom to use roads :P We need to protect public order by imposing some restrictions on public assembly, otherwise it will be legal to occupy highways indefinitely. The point is that those restrictions have to be carried out in a reasonable and fair manner. Every year in HK, hundreds of thousands march on different dates to protest against the government, and those protests do receive police permission. So I think there is good balance.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 13, 2014, 07:01:44 PM
Be careful of what you wish for.
Gatherings of 10 need permission is a draconian law? In HK, that no. is 3 :lol:
Of course you would come out in defense of a regime that kills unarmed protesters in the hundreds, if only it keeps the streets clear.
Quote from: Syt on December 14, 2014, 01:15:19 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 13, 2014, 07:01:44 PM
Be careful of what you wish for.
Gatherings of 10 need permission is a draconian law? In HK, that no. is 3 :lol:
Of course you would come out in defense of a regime that kills unarmed protesters in the hundreds, if only it keeps the streets clear.
I am saying that it is a huge gamble to try to overthrow a regime, because you never know what you'll get next.
Isn't Hong Kong like two miles across? Why do you even have cars?
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 01:41:17 AM
I am saying that it is a huge gamble to try to overthrow a regime, because you never know what you'll get next.
Yeah, lots of revolutionaries worry about that.
Quote from: Ideologue on December 14, 2014, 01:42:34 AM
Isn't Hong Kong like two miles across? Why do you even have cars?
We are slightly bigger than that :P
With a fickle dictatorship, you also don't know what you'll get in the future.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 13, 2014, 08:03:31 PM
Hey, it's what you people wanted.
Well, Morsi had to go. His utter misrule was leaving Egypt vulnerable to a bloody coup.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 02:57:45 AM
With a fickle dictatorship, you also don't know what you'll get in the future.
That's true, of course, but I am not sure that these arguments are useful to the tens or hundreds of thousands who lost their lives in Syria. It is easy to sit in your armchair and say "let's overthrow all dictatorships!" People who actually live under those regimes and have to suffer the consequences of these actions may have different opinions.
Quote from: Syt on December 13, 2014, 12:32:52 PM"They hanker for stability more than freedom." => A common theme in many countries these days.
People do that when they are afraid. And politicians and media make sure they are, whether it's ebola, terrorism or immigrants taking our jobs.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 01:02:30 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 13, 2014, 07:54:55 PM
3 or 10 or 300, the point is you don't have freedom of assembly.
I also have freedom to use roads :P We need to protect public order by imposing some restrictions on public assembly, otherwise it will be legal to occupy highways indefinitely. The point is that those restrictions have to be carried out in a reasonable and fair manner. Every year in HK, hundreds of thousands march on different dates to protest against the government, and those protests do receive police permission. So I think there is good balance.
Just go the fuck away. Will you?
You are currently easily the single most despicable poster on Languish. More than even the likes of Dorsey, Hortlund or Hansmeister at the height of his propaganda spree.
Lighten the fuck up Francis.
I can't help thinking that he needs a big cock up his ass on a regular basis to loosen the fuck up. Ask for fucking anal, dude.
Quote from: Martinus on December 14, 2014, 03:18:58 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 01:02:30 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on December 13, 2014, 07:54:55 PM
3 or 10 or 300, the point is you don't have freedom of assembly.
I also have freedom to use roads :P We need to protect public order by imposing some restrictions on public assembly, otherwise it will be legal to occupy highways indefinitely. The point is that those restrictions have to be carried out in a reasonable and fair manner. Every year in HK, hundreds of thousands march on different dates to protest against the government, and those protests do receive police permission. So I think there is good balance.
Just go the fuck away. Will you?
You are currently easily the single most despicable poster on Languish. More than even the likes of Dorsey, Hortlund or Hansmeister at the height of his propaganda spree.
But they aren't anime fans :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi62.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fh101%2FMonoriu%2Fharuhi-chistmas-pics-12_zps37ab0e21.jpg&hash=d8cfbd0768b3a0fd31be432dd2e30e3d11bc3b0a) (http://s62.photobucket.com/user/Monoriu/media/haruhi-chistmas-pics-12_zps37ab0e21.jpg.html)
Martinus makes everything personal.
Sure, Mono abides an evil system. Don't we all?
There is abiding and there is cheering it on.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 03:26:08 AM
Lighten the fuck up Francis.
You need to post a picture of Hulka to get the full Lighten Up effect. :)
Ed you're my big toe!
But don't tell Marcin! :o
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 03:07:54 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 02:57:45 AM
With a fickle dictatorship, you also don't know what you'll get in the future.
That's true, of course, but I am not sure that these arguments are useful to the tens or hundreds of thousands who lost their lives in Syria. It is easy to sit in your armchair and say "let's overthrow all dictatorships!" People who actually live under those regimes and have to suffer the consequences of these actions may have different opinions.
That's a question of when, not if.
Those people are going to have to deal with that at some point anyway. The dictatorship-for-stability argument has always been a bit flawed due to the fact that dictatorships are inherently more fragile. Peoples' lifetimes are finite, and transitions are always dangerous.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 14, 2014, 04:32:28 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 03:07:54 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 02:57:45 AM
With a fickle dictatorship, you also don't know what you'll get in the future.
That's true, of course, but I am not sure that these arguments are useful to the tens or hundreds of thousands who lost their lives in Syria. It is easy to sit in your armchair and say "let's overthrow all dictatorships!" People who actually live under those regimes and have to suffer the consequences of these actions may have different opinions.
That's a question of when, not if.
Those people are going to have to deal with that at some point anyway. The dictatorship-for-stability argument has always been a bit flawed due to the fact that dictatorships are inherently more fragile. Peoples' lifetimes are finite, and transitions are always dangerous.
I think it is a bit more complicated than that. One, there are obviously many different types of dictatorships. People may have greater incentive to overthrow a North Korean-style dictatorship than the party in China, where the living standard of the average Joe has improved immeasurably in the past two decades. Two, are you looking at this from a social point of view or an individual point of view? There is usually very little that an individual can do about social change.
Mono can you name a dictatorship that exists in the present with its current government, that is older then a 100 years old?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 05:31:33 PM
Mono can you name a dictatorship that exists in the present with its current government, that is older then a 100 years old?
If you hate the communist government in China so much, then go to Tian An Men yourself and protest against it. Stop trying to tell me to do it, because I am not interested :contract:
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 05:31:33 PM
Mono can you name a dictatorship that exists in the present with its current government, that is older then a 100 years old?
If you hate the communist government in China so much, then go to Tian An Men yourself and protest against it. Stop trying to tell me to do it, because I am not interested :contract:
"we" already did, many times, again and again.
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It's not easy and often it doesn't take the first time round.
:swiss:
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
If you hate the communist government in China so much, then go to Tian An Men yourself and protest against it. Stop trying to tell me to do it, because I am not interested :contract:
That wasn't exactly an answer to my question. I'm quite confident that the PRC will fall. Probably sooner then North Korea's will. When a country goes through transition, like say increasing the standard of living for the average Joe it tends to lead to disruption and eventual collapse. I imagine you'll see it in your life time. I don't hate the communist government, if I did I would be like Seedy or Ide, and want
my government to intervene.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 07:01:38 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
If you hate the communist government in China so much, then go to Tian An Men yourself and protest against it. Stop trying to tell me to do it, because I am not interested :contract:
That wasn't exactly an answer to my question. I'm quite confident that the PRC will fall. Probably sooner then North Korea's will. When a country goes through transition, like say increasing the standard of living for the average Joe it tends to lead to disruption and eventual collapse. I imagine you'll see it in your life time. I don't hate the communist government, if I did I would be like Seedy or Ide, and want my government to intervene.
/shrug. People have been predicting the fall of the PRC since the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, the death of Mao, and Tian An Men. Hasn't happened yet. Meanwhile, we still need to make a living. Not sure how your theory makes any difference to me. So I should prepare for this...event that may or may not happen in the next 30 years by doing what?
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 05:31:33 PM
Mono can you name a dictatorship that exists in the present with its current government, that is older then a 100 years old?
If you hate the communist government in China so much, then go to Tian An Men yourself and protest against it. Stop trying to tell me to do it, because I am not interested :contract:
You are, deliberately I'm absolutely sure, conflating two different things. No one says you should be revolting against the Communist Party. We're just saying that cheering on the suppression of people far braver than you are, and being gleeful that they're going to pay the price for it, is so pathetic that words don't even exist to adequately describe it.
Go ahead, misrepresent what I just said yet again, we all know you want to do it.
Lighten up Francis.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firedaily.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F12%2F2012%2F01%2Flighten-up-francis.jpg&hash=a03a7a48570972dec751eead30256dbd33a43664)
Quote from: DGuller on December 14, 2014, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 05:31:33 PM
Mono can you name a dictatorship that exists in the present with its current government, that is older then a 100 years old?
If you hate the communist government in China so much, then go to Tian An Men yourself and protest against it. Stop trying to tell me to do it, because I am not interested :contract:
You are, deliberately I'm absolutely sure, conflating two different things. No one says you should be revolting against the Communist Party. We're just saying that cheering on the suppression of people far braver than you are, and being gleeful that they're going to pay the price for it, is so pathetic that words don't even exist to adequately describe it.
Go ahead, misrepresent what I just said yet again, we all know you want to do it.
It is wrong to block roads illegally, and I am glad that the criminals who did it will be punished. Just like how I am glad that the people who robbed banks will go to jail. As simple as that.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 07:43:53 PM
It is wrong to block roads illegally, and I am glad that the criminals who did it will be punished. Just like how I am glad that the people who robbed banks will go to jail. As simple as that.
We both know that civil disobedience is not as simple as that. Black people in the South who sat at the front of the bus broke the law as well.
Eh, forget it, you'll just keep insulting my intelligence if I attempt to engage in a discussion with you.
Quote from: DGuller on December 14, 2014, 07:48:29 PM
We both know that civil disobedience is not as simple as that. Black people in the South who sat at the front of the bus broke the law as well.
Right, it's not about breaking the law when the law is shit. It's about hurting innocent bystanders. Sitting in the front of the bus hurts nobody.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 14, 2014, 07:53:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 14, 2014, 07:48:29 PM
We both know that civil disobedience is not as simple as that. Black people in the South who sat at the front of the bus broke the law as well.
Right, it's not about breaking the law when the law is shit. It's about hurting innocent bystanders. Sitting in the front of the bus hurts nobody.
You've said this several times but I think that stance is bullshit. Sometimes innocent bystanders must be inconvenienced - particularly if their apathy and attempts to "sit this one out" are what help the oppressive conditions to continue.
Quote from: DGuller on December 14, 2014, 07:48:29 PM
We both know that civil disobedience is not as simple as that. Black people in the South who sat at the front of the bus broke the law as well.
Eh, forget it, you'll just keep insulting my intelligence if I attempt to engage in a discussion with you.
You might be confusing the bus boycott and lunch counter sit ins.
We've been over this issue before. In both those cases mentioned above blacks targeted the laws they felt were unjust. Presumably the protesters in Hong Kong aren't expressing their disaproval of laws about blocking traffic and pedestrian walkways.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 07:01:38 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
If you hate the communist government in China so much, then go to Tian An Men yourself and protest against it. Stop trying to tell me to do it, because I am not interested :contract:
That wasn't exactly an answer to my question. I'm quite confident that the PRC will fall. Probably sooner then North Korea's will. When a country goes through transition, like say increasing the standard of living for the average Joe it tends to lead to disruption and eventual collapse. I imagine you'll see it in your life time. I don't hate the communist government, if I did I would be like Seedy or Ide, and want my government to intervene.
All I want is us to stop trading with slave states. When they enact a minimum wage, then the PRC can join the community of non-shitty nations. Currently occupied by Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, who long ago ran out of things to talk about. :(
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2014, 08:00:10 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 14, 2014, 07:53:56 PM
Right, it's not about breaking the law when the law is shit. It's about hurting innocent bystanders. Sitting in the front of the bus hurts nobody.
You've said this several times but I think that stance is bullshit. Sometimes innocent bystanders must be inconvenienced - particularly if their apathy and attempts to "sit this one out" are what help the oppressive conditions to continue.
Sometimes the weak must be punished for the sins of the powerful. :(
Quote from: Ideologue on December 14, 2014, 08:01:29 PM
All I want is us to stop trading with slave states. When they enact a minimum wage, then the PRC can join the community of non-shitty nations. Currently occupied by Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, who long ago ran out of things to talk about. :(
By this definition Germany is a slave state.
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2014, 08:00:10 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 14, 2014, 07:53:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 14, 2014, 07:48:29 PM
We both know that civil disobedience is not as simple as that. Black people in the South who sat at the front of the bus broke the law as well.
Right, it's not about breaking the law when the law is shit. It's about hurting innocent bystanders. Sitting in the front of the bus hurts nobody.
You've said this several times but I think that stance is bullshit. Sometimes innocent bystanders must be inconvenienced - particularly if their apathy and attempts to "sit this one out" are what help the oppressive conditions to continue.
Sure. You know what, by blocking major crossroads for over 70 days, the rioters have successfully improved the popularity of the HK government, and decreased their own ratings. Close to two million out of a population of seven million have signed petitions to get the roads back. People are rightly pissed off about their antics :bowler:
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 08:00:33 PM
You might be confusing the bus boycott and lunch counter sit ins.
We've been over this issue before. In both those cases mentioned above blacks targeted the laws they felt were unjust. Presumably the protesters in Hong Kong aren't expressing their disaproval of laws about blocking traffic and pedestrian walkways.
How, exactly, do you target the lack of democracy? Elect your own governing body that no one will listen to?
Quote from: Ideologue on December 14, 2014, 08:01:29 PM
All I want is us to stop trading with slave states. When they enact a minimum wage, then the PRC can join the community of non-shitty nations. Currently occupied by Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, who long ago ran out of things to talk about. :(
China has minimum wage :huh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_in_People%27s_Republic_of_China
Quote from: frunk on December 14, 2014, 09:12:04 PM
How, exactly, do you target the lack of democracy? Elect your own governing body that no one will listen to?
You hold big rallies in places where your presence won't inconvenience others unduly.
The counterargument to this in the past has been "but then no one will pay any attention."
The rebuttal to
that is occupying the roads has gotten everyone's attention and it has turned public opinion against the protesters' agenda.
Lunch counter owners that won't serve blacks and municipal bus companies that force blacks to the back are the bad guys. Go ahead and inconvenience them. The owners of fishball and noodle restaurants are not the bad guys.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 09:00:18 PM
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2014, 08:00:10 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 14, 2014, 07:53:56 PM
Quote from: DGuller on December 14, 2014, 07:48:29 PM
We both know that civil disobedience is not as simple as that. Black people in the South who sat at the front of the bus broke the law as well.
Right, it's not about breaking the law when the law is shit. It's about hurting innocent bystanders. Sitting in the front of the bus hurts nobody.
You've said this several times but I think that stance is bullshit. Sometimes innocent bystanders must be inconvenienced - particularly if their apathy and attempts to "sit this one out" are what help the oppressive conditions to continue.
Sure. You know what, by blocking major crossroads for over 70 days, the rioters have successfully improved the popularity of the HK government, and decreased their own ratings. Close to two million out of a population of seven million have signed petitions to get the roads back. People are rightly pissed off about their antics :bowler:
Oh, I don't really need you to respond to me. Thanks. :)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 09:30:36 PM
Quote from: frunk on December 14, 2014, 09:12:04 PM
How, exactly, do you target the lack of democracy? Elect your own governing body that no one will listen to?
You hold big rallies in places where your presence won't inconvenience others unduly.
The counterargument to this in the past has been "but then no one will pay any attention."
The rebuttal to that is occupying the roads has gotten everyone's attention and it has turned public opinion against the protesters' agenda.
Lunch counter owners that won't serve blacks and municipal bus companies that force blacks to the back are the bad guys. Go ahead and inconvenience them. The owners of fishball and noodle restaurants are not the bad guys.
What proof would you offer that holding rallies in places that did not unduly burden others would have made a difference?
Quote from: garbon on December 14, 2014, 10:51:36 PM
What proof would you offer that holding rallies in places that did not unduly burden others would have made a difference?
What do you mean by "make a difference?" Bring full democracy to Hong Kong? Topple the Communist Party from power in China?
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 09:12:23 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on December 14, 2014, 08:01:29 PM
All I want is us to stop trading with slave states. When they enact a minimum wage, then the PRC can join the community of non-shitty nations. Currently occupied by Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, who long ago ran out of things to talk about. :(
China has minimum wage :huh:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_in_People%27s_Republic_of_China
I meant "our," not "a." My mistake. Apologies.
Quote from: Ideologue on December 14, 2014, 08:01:29 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 07:01:38 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
If you hate the communist government in China so much, then go to Tian An Men yourself and protest against it. Stop trying to tell me to do it, because I am not interested :contract:
That wasn't exactly an answer to my question. I'm quite confident that the PRC will fall. Probably sooner then North Korea's will. When a country goes through transition, like say increasing the standard of living for the average Joe it tends to lead to disruption and eventual collapse. I imagine you'll see it in your life time. I don't hate the communist government, if I did I would be like Seedy or Ide, and want my government to intervene.
All I want is us to stop trading with slave states. When they enact a minimum wage, then the PRC can join the community of non-shitty nations. Currently occupied by Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, who long ago ran out of things to talk about. :(
Sweden doesn't have a minimum wage and we're still on the non-shitty list. :showoff:
DARN it.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Ideologue on December 14, 2014, 08:01:29 PM
All I want is us to stop trading with slave states. When they enact a minimum wage, then the PRC can join the community of non-shitty nations. Currently occupied by Sweden, Norway, and Denmark, who long ago ran out of things to talk about. :(
By this definition Germany is a slave state.
Germany recently introduced a minimum wage.
Really? I thought it has been a thing for many years in most Western countries.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 07:38:46 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 14, 2014, 07:01:38 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 14, 2014, 05:41:33 PM
If you hate the communist government in China so much, then go to Tian An Men yourself and protest against it. Stop trying to tell me to do it, because I am not interested :contract:
That wasn't exactly an answer to my question. I'm quite confident that the PRC will fall. Probably sooner then North Korea's will. When a country goes through transition, like say increasing the standard of living for the average Joe it tends to lead to disruption and eventual collapse. I imagine you'll see it in your life time. I don't hate the communist government, if I did I would be like Seedy or Ide, and want my government to intervene.
/shrug. People have been predicting the fall of the PRC since the Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution, the death of Mao, and Tian An Men. Hasn't happened yet. Meanwhile, we still need to make a living. Not sure how your theory makes any difference to me. So I should prepare for this...event that may or may not happen in the next 30 years by doing what?
Can you name an existing dictatorship that maintained power for 100 years? But you are probably right. Bureaucrats in Communist states usually have nothing to fear.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 15, 2014, 02:13:24 AM
Can you name an existing dictatorship that maintained power for 100 years? But you are probably right. Bureaucrats in Communist states usually have nothing to fear.
I have never claimed there is an existing dictatorship that has maintained power for 100 years, or that they last forever, so I don't feel obliged to answer your question. So you keep predicting that the PRC will fall. My question is, so what?
Quote from: Martinus on December 15, 2014, 01:14:18 AM
Really? I thought it has been a thing for many years in most Western countries.
In central and northern European countries you often have institutions that allow collective bargaining between unions and employers for entire sectors of industry. You'll find that this way of organizing society with non-state public institutions is widespread in many policy areas.
Those collective bargaining agreements used to cover most workers and a minimum wage set by the state was thus just not necessary. Beyond setting an absolute minimum, it's questionable if our state may even influence wages as our constitution guarantees non-interference in collective bargaining.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 14, 2014, 09:30:36 PM
You hold big rallies in places where your presence won't inconvenience others unduly.
The counterargument to this in the past has been "but then no one will pay any attention."
The rebuttal to that is occupying the roads has gotten everyone's attention and it has turned public opinion against the protesters' agenda.
Lunch counter owners that won't serve blacks and municipal bus companies that force blacks to the back are the bad guys. Go ahead and inconvenience them. The owners of fishball and noodle restaurants are not the bad guys.
How does this"target the lack of democracy" in the same sense that a sit in would at a racist store?
Besides, with welfare payments you have a de facto minimum wage, anyways, because employers will have to offer more than that to fill in vacancies.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 15, 2014, 02:24:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 15, 2014, 02:13:24 AM
Can you name an existing dictatorship that maintained power for 100 years? But you are probably right. Bureaucrats in Communist states usually have nothing to fear.
I have never claimed there is an existing dictatorship that has maintained power for 100 years, or that they last forever, so I don't feel obliged to answer your question. So you keep predicting that the PRC will fall. My question is, so what?
Your argument was that it would be a huge gamble to try bring down the regime. Since it will likely fall in our lifetimes, the gamble doesn't seem so great. There will be a revolution perhaps sooner then you think. The Recent events in the Arab world have shown how fragile these governments are. The question i, where do you want to be and what do you want to do about it?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 15, 2014, 03:31:49 AM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 15, 2014, 02:24:46 AM
Quote from: Razgovory on December 15, 2014, 02:13:24 AM
Can you name an existing dictatorship that maintained power for 100 years? But you are probably right. Bureaucrats in Communist states usually have nothing to fear.
I have never claimed there is an existing dictatorship that has maintained power for 100 years, or that they last forever, so I don't feel obliged to answer your question. So you keep predicting that the PRC will fall. My question is, so what?
Your argument was that it would be a huge gamble to try bring down the regime. Since it will likely fall in our lifetimes, the gamble doesn't seem so great. There will be a revolution perhaps sooner then you think. The Recent events in the Arab world have shown how fragile these governments are. The question i, where do you want to be and what do you want to do about it?
Lots of dictatorships have transformed themselves peacefully. Taiwan and South Korea come to mind as relatively recent examples in this part of the world. Revolution is not the only way out. I think the recent events in the Arab World show precisely why revolutions may not be a good idea for the population. Syria stands out as the most striking example, but Egypt and Libya are also useful references.
There is nothing I as an individual can do about revolutions or politics in general. So I won't try.
Quote from: frunk on December 15, 2014, 03:21:48 AM
How does this"target the lack of democracy" in the same sense that a sit in would at a racist store?
The point is it's not targeting an innocent third party.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 15, 2014, 03:50:51 AM
The point is it's not targeting an innocent third party.
It's not targeting anybody or anything. Do you think the demonstrations in the eastern bloc 25 years ago would have been as effective if they were held in the middle of the woods?
It's funny to watch Mono become so political. Hell, he's even hijacking threads - like this one about Egypt - to talk about his political obsessions.
Mono, I think your Armour of Apathy has been permanently destroyed.
But he doesn't even vote. :P
Quote from: Jacob on December 15, 2014, 01:42:19 PM
It's funny to watch Mono become so political. Hell, he's even hijacking threads - like this one about Egypt - to talk about his political obsessions.
Mono, I think your Armour of Apathy has been permanently destroyed.
:blush:
You are right, of course. I have said many times that I haven't done a good enough job about being apathetic.
I will, however, refrain from acting upon my convictions. No protests, no voter registration, no voting, no political party affiliations. I will also encourage others to be politically apathetic.
Quote from: Monoriu on December 15, 2014, 07:09:00 PM
I will, however, refrain from acting upon my convictions. No protests, no voter registration, no voting, no political party affiliations. I will also encourage others to be politically apathetic.
Do you know how many dirty aristocrats unwillingly went to their well-deserved deaths so I could have the right to vote?
Quote from: Valmy on December 15, 2014, 08:42:13 PM
Quote from: Monoriu on December 15, 2014, 07:09:00 PM
I will, however, refrain from acting upon my convictions. No protests, no voter registration, no voting, no political party affiliations. I will also encourage others to be politically apathetic.
Do you know how many dirty aristocrats unwillingly went to their well-deserved deaths so I could have the right to vote?
Zero multiplied by 10 million is still zero. The marginal effect of my vote is zero, so it doesn't make sense to go to the voting office. Remember, even in Bush vs Gore 2000, Bush won by more than 500 votes :P
Well yeah your vote counts for shit when it comes to Presidential elections. But that is literally the only national vote we have.
Even ignoring the immorality of it all, this doesn't seem conducive for stability in the long wrong.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/05/16/mohamed_morsi_egyptian_court_sentences_ex_president_to_death.html
QuoteEgyptian Court Sentences Ex-President Morsi to Death
By Daniel Politi
An Egypt court has sentenced former president Mohamed Morsi, along with 105 other Muslim Brotherhood supporters, to death for a mass jail break in 2011. The sentence was referred to the grand mufti, Egypt's most important religious authority, "whose opinion isn't legally binding but is traditionally adopted by the court," details the Wall Street Journal. But Yehia Ghanaem, a former managing editor of the newspaper Al Ahram tells Al Jazeera the death sentence is the expected outcome, and whatever the grand mufti decides was "not compelling to the judiciary." The court is expected to make a final ruling on June 2.
The sentence against Morsi, who is already serving a 20-year prison term on charges tied to the killings of protesters in 2012, was immediately condemned by Amnesty International. Morsi's sentence "shows a complete disregard for human rights. His trials were undermined even before he set foot in the courtroom," said Said Boumedouha, deputy director of Amnesty International's Middle East and North Africa program, reports CNN. "The death penalty has become the favorite tool for the Egyptian authorities to purge the political opposition."
Morsi and the other defendants were convicted of killing and kidnapping police officers as part of their escape from Wadi Natroun prison at the height of the revolt that led to the ouster of dictator Hosni Mubarak. More than 20,000 prisoners escaped or were released during the revolt, and the court said Morsi colluded with foreign militants to free Islamists, reports the BBC.
Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan criticized Egypt for the sentence and the international community for staying silent. "While the West is abolishing the death penalty, they are just watching the continuation of death sentences in Egypt. They don't do anything about it," he said.
For once I agree with Erdogan. It's a joke that the crime he is getting death penalty for is escaping from prison where he was held by Mubarak.
A shocking instance of mild justice from Egypt.
http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/egyptian-court-sentences-police-officer-to-15-years-in-prison-over-killing-woman-protester-1.2417899
QuoteEgyptian court sentences police officer to 15 years in prison over killing woman protester
Maggie Michael, The Associated Press
Published Thursday, June 11, 2015 3:28PM EDT
CAIRO -- An Egyptian court on Thursday convicted and sentenced a police officer to 15 years in prison over the killing of a female protester during a peaceful demonstration in Cairo in January -- a slaying that shocked many Egyptians.
The Cairo Criminal Court ruled against 24-year-old police lieutenant Yassin Hatem Salah Eddin, charged with manslaughter over the death of 32-year-old activist Shaimaa el-Sabbagh. The ruling can be appealed.
The killing struck a nerve with many Egyptians and stoked anger over perceived brutality of the police. El-Sabbagh family members, lawyers and friends welcomed the verdict, many clapping in approval inside the court room on Thursday.
Video footage of the incident showed el-Sabbagh collapsing in a colleague's arms with her head, chest and back soaked in blood after a masked policeman fired birdshot in her direction. A voice was heard in the videos, commanding: "Fire."
Authorities initially denied that police had any involvement in her death. Lawyers had repeatedly demanded that the manslaughter charge be changed to premeditated murder.
Salah Eddin addressed the court before the verdict was handed down, denying responsibility for el-Sabbagh's killing and saying he had no gunshots in his weapon.
"We had no gunshots. We were there for security, not to kill anyone," he said. "This is our job."
Rights lawyers and witnesses have said the police hampered efforts to save el-Sabbagh's life by preventing an ambulance from passing through the cordon.
El-Sabbagh and a small group of demonstrators were marking the anniversary of the Jan. 25, 2011, uprising that toppled longtime autocrat Hosni Mubarak. During the uprising, nearly 900 protesters were killed by police.
In subsequent trials, almost all of the over 100 policemen involved and charged with the killings were acquitted, with judges citing shoddy investigations or lax evidence in the cases, which were largely probed by the police themselves.
The uproar over el-Sabbagh's death prompted Egypt's President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi to urge an investigation. He suggested at the time that individual mistakes should not undermine public confidence in the police.
Egypt's interior minister was subsequently replaced in a Cabinet shuffle.
The verdict comes against a backdrop of a state-orchestrated campaign to silence dissent. An anti-protest law punishes demonstrations staged without police permits and courts dispense heavy sentences against both Islamists and secular-minded activists over charges mostly related to violence.
The campaign escalated following the military's ouster of Islamist President Mohammed Morsi in July 2013 after mass demonstrations accusing him of abuse of power.
A lawyer representing the slain woman said the ruling was fair.
"The ruling achieves justice and retribution," said the lawyer, Amir Salem. "The soul of Shaimaa will can now rest in peace."