http://www.timesofisrael.com/act-more-austrian-arab-tourists-told/
QuoteAct more Austrian, Arab tourists told
A state-distributed leaflet advising Arab tourists to stop haggling over prices, dumping litter and wearing burkas has caused a storm of controversy among residents and public officials in the Austrian ski resort town of Zell am See.
Mayor Peter Padourek defended the practice as an attempt to make the atmosphere of the region more comfortable for both locals and tourists from other parts of the world.
"When you have a situation where visitors from a particular country or region are over present, then it can be a problem," he told the Salzburger Nachrichten, according to an Austrian Times translation. "Austrians have the same problem in Lignano. Here the Arabs have the problem that their strong presence in the region is very clearly visible because of the burka. That causes irritation among locals and among visitors from other countries. The guests are coming from other countries carry away with them a different image of our region."
Local cable car company manager Erich Egger echoed the mayor's concerns.
"The feedback I'm getting from hoteliers is the other guests are saying to them they are not going to come again," he said, according to the Austrian Times.
However, not all local business owners agreed with the decision to distribute the pamphlet. Hotel owner Wilfred Holleis even went as far as to say it was a form of discrimination.
"I see this as a kind of tourism apartheid," he said according to the Austrian Times, adding that he had no problem with Arab tourists. "I think there are much more serious problems here, for example the number of people who don't spend any time here but buy property which is effectively just a holiday house and therefore make little or no contribution to the local economy."
Local tourism spokeswoman Renate Ecker told the Nachrichten there had been over 275,000 overnight stays by Arab tourists in 2013 and that they are a boon to the tourism dependent region during the low season summer months, when they account for over a quarter of all tourists.
"They often stay for several weeks, also at times when it's not so busy and in contrast to guests from other regions they are always delighted when it rains," she said,adding that some hotels depend heavily on Arab guests and cater specifically to them.
The eight-page guide, titled "Where Cultures Meet," produced by tourism officials, the police and the Austrian Arabic chamber of trade, includes a number of tidbits and advisories that address local concerns over road safety, littering, dress and behavior.
The pamphlet also advises that prices in Austria were not meant to be negotiated.
According to the Austrian Times, the most controversial debate over the pamphlet was the mention of the burka, with critics saying it would be seen as an attack on Islam. In the end, an advisory against wearing the traditional body cloak went in with an explanation that Austrian women dress as they wish, but typically choose to wear black as a sign of mourning; and that "people from the region are used to looking into the laughing face of others in order to gain a first impression and in order to build trust. With this in mind, locals would be glad when visitors adopted the Austrian mentality."
One of the most pressing issues that spurred authorities to produce and distribute the pamphlet was a concern over road safety, as complaints of Arab tourists driving too fast, ignoring traffic laws and not putting seatbelts on children had reportedly become commonplace. In one 2013 incident, an Arab child who was not buckled up died in a car accident.
Issues may run deeper than those that can be addressed by a pamphlet, though.
"I don't like it when we sell ourselves in this way," Padourek said, referring to the appearance of signs in Arabic. "We don't need to cozy up to anyone with gestures like this. We should limit ourselves to German and English."
"They seem to think that if they pay, they can get whatever they want," he added.
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Following the media outrage, the brochure will be withdrawn and reworked. :P
"ok tourist. If you come here, you better blend in you dirtbag!"
A colleague has several friends who run B&B or hotels in that area. They're not happy with their Arab customers. Sometimes they will only book rooms for the men, not mentioning that there will be wives and children, but expecting accommodation for them at no surcharge. Sometimes a carpet needs to be replaced because of cigarette burns or food stains. Sometimes they will just drop their garbage wherever they're standing.
All anecdotal, though, and I have no idea if it's as bad as she claims it is.
Prices are fixed in the UK, of course, but I often haggle in shops, especially over furniture, white goods, electronics, and clothing or shoes if they're the slightest bit shop-worn. It usually works, and even if it doesn't no-one loses anything.
Wow, how patronising is the clothing thing? I can't imagine some establishments only accepting European dress going down well, or "show us your smile". I'm happy to cover up if travelling somewhere more conservative.
Quote from: Brazen on June 23, 2014, 05:51:58 AM
Prices are fixed in the UK, of course, but I often haggle in shops, especially over furniture, white goods, electronics, and clothing or shoes if they're the slightest bit shop-worn. It usually works, and even if it doesn't no-one loses anything.
Wow, how patronising is the clothing thing? I can't imagine some establishments only accepting European dress going down well, or "show us your smile". I'm happy to cover up if travelling somewhere more conservative.
Oh, agreed on both counts.
This sort of reminds me of the signs at icelandic swimming pools for tourists
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some things are just non-negotiable.
And they're strictly enforced too. Don't think the shower attendant won't notice you trying to sneak past him into the pools. :contract:
I get the "don't trash the room" part (although I guess it is still racist to assume all arabs will do that. Then again, this is the same country with signs in Hungarian saying "do not steal" in shops twenty odd years ago), but trying to have them adopt to Austrian clothing standards is stupid and very offensive.
They're all reasonable except the burqa one.
Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2014, 06:20:18 AM
I get the "don't trash the room" part (although I guess it is still racist to assume all arabs will do that. Then again, this is the same country with signs in Hungarian saying "do not steal" in shops twenty odd years ago), but trying to have them adopt to Austrian clothing standards is stupid and very offensive.
Yes and they can stay home in their barbaric country.
Quote from: Brazen on June 23, 2014, 05:51:58 AM
Prices are fixed in the UK, of course, but I often haggle in shops, especially over furniture, white goods, electronics, and clothing or shoes if they're the slightest bit shop-worn. It usually works, and even if it doesn't no-one loses anything.
Wow, how patronising is the clothing thing? I can't imagine some establishments only accepting European dress going down well, or "show us your smile". I'm happy to cover up if travelling somewhere more conservative.
Can't imagine a bank doing that for security reasons?
Banks have banned the niqab and burqa for quite a while, sames goes for motorcycle outfits and helmets, specially with visor on.
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 23, 2014, 07:11:01 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2014, 06:20:18 AM
I get the "don't trash the room" part (although I guess it is still racist to assume all arabs will do that. Then again, this is the same country with signs in Hungarian saying "do not steal" in shops twenty odd years ago), but trying to have them adopt to Austrian clothing standards is stupid and very offensive.
Yes and they can stay home in their barbaric country.
Except of course that while I understand this is fuelled by (largely understandable) disdain for pretty alien cultures settling in Aryan Austria, the leaflet is aimed at tourist. People catering for tourists make money out of tourists not staying in the barbaric countries, but rather, coming over and having a good time making a bonfire on the carpet.
Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2014, 07:21:38 AM
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 23, 2014, 07:11:01 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2014, 06:20:18 AM
I get the "don't trash the room" part (although I guess it is still racist to assume all arabs will do that. Then again, this is the same country with signs in Hungarian saying "do not steal" in shops twenty odd years ago), but trying to have them adopt to Austrian clothing standards is stupid and very offensive.
Yes and they can stay home in their barbaric country.
Except of course that while I understand this is fuelled by (largely understandable) disdain for pretty alien cultures settling in Aryan Austria, the leaflet is aimed at tourist. People catering for tourists make money out of tourists not staying in the barbaric countries, but rather, coming over and having a good time making a bonfire on the carpet.
or the tourism authority that printed them is secretly trying to keep Muslims savage out of their country.
They should also mention that they eat croissants in the shape of the symbol of Islam.
Quote from: Solmyr on June 23, 2014, 07:55:28 AM
They should also mention that they eat croissants in the shape of the symbol of Islam.
They will never mention that croissants are much better in France though.
I shit in bidets.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2014, 07:03:22 AM
They're all reasonable except the burqa one.
Icelanders inspecting your junk doesn't sound very reasonable either.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 23, 2014, 08:12:11 AM
I shit in bidets.
Alright, Evil Twin #1/2 get off daddy's tablet.
In Italy the problem is Russian tourists. :lol:
QuoteAs the summer tourist season approaches, Italians have a message for their rich Russian visitors – you may be minted, but you have no manners.
Big-spending Russians have proved a lifeline for the Italian tourist sector during the last few years of economic recession but they are often perceived as brash, boorish and rude.
Now a hotel owner in Tuscany – the Russians' favourite destination – has produced a television commercial which aims to educate wealthy Muscovites and other Russian visitors about the finer points of Italian etiquette.
....
They are told that ordering a cappuccino after lunch is an unforgivable faux pas – in Italy the frothy coffee is seen as an exclusively morning drink. Italians instead would order an espresso or a caffe macchiato – an espresso with a dash of milk. Nor should red wine be ordered with fish – for seafood, it has to be white wine every time. Cashed-up Russians are also warned that it is vulgar to choose the most expensive wine on the list.
....
Even showy Italians baulk at Russian women wearing barely-there, sequinned bikinis and swim costumes.
"Russian women who love to wear high heels and tiny bikinis should perhaps avoid those," she says.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10889446/Italian-hotel-owner-issues-etiquette-guide-for-uncouth-Russian-tourists.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10889446/Italian-hotel-owner-issues-etiquette-guide-for-uncouth-Russian-tourists.html)
Why the fuck do they froth over when their horribly overpriced cappuccino is ordered, as long as it is bought?
Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2014, 09:19:06 AM
Why the fuck do they froth over when their horribly overpriced cappuccino is ordered, as long as it is bought?
Not all places are populated by moral-less, hearthless capitalist as yourself, Tamas.
So what do they do with the most expensive wine on the list? Pour it down the drain?
Quote from: Grey Fox on June 23, 2014, 09:22:35 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2014, 09:19:06 AM
Why the fuck do they froth over when their horribly overpriced cappuccino is ordered, as long as it is bought?
Not all places are populated by moral-less, hearthless capitalist as yourself, Tamas.
I know you are French, so this must be news, but there is this expression: "the customer is always right" :P
Quote from: Solmyr on June 23, 2014, 09:25:11 AM
So what do they do with the most expensive wine on the list? Pour it down the drain?
Serve it to vulgar customers, naturally.
Quote from: Solmyr on June 23, 2014, 09:25:11 AM
So what do they do with the most expensive wine on the list? Pour it down the drain?
I guess the objection is over ordering the most expensive one on principle and not based on taste, whether it goes with the food and occasion etc.
Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2014, 09:19:06 AM
Why the fuck do they froth over when their horribly overpriced cappuccino is ordered, as long as it is bought?
Because it offends against truth and beauty, same way as shitting wherever you stand at that time does.
Quote from: Solmyr on June 23, 2014, 09:25:11 AM
So what do they do with the most expensive wine on the list? Pour it down the drain?
Use it to generate sales of the 2nd most expensive wine. :D
My buddy's Brit Indian wife's uncle has been in the US a few times and insists on haggling wherever the fuck he is. I've been around with him a few times and it's flat-out embarrassing. We tried to tell him to stop a couple times and finally just left the store in embarrassment every time he decided to buy something or talk to the salesperson.
Apart from that and his crazy conspiracy theories, he's a decent enough guy though.
You can never quite tell what position Legbiter will take but he always takes it using the strongest language possible.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 09:34:25 AM
My buddy's Brit Indian wife's uncle has been in the US a few times and insists on haggling wherever the fuck he is. I've been around with him a few times and it's flat-out embarrassing. We tried to tell him to stop a couple times and finally just left the store in embarrassment every time he decided to buy something or talk to the salesperson.
Apart from that and his crazy conspiracy theories, he's a decent enough guy though.
Wait your buddy's Brit-Indian wife's uncle? What are his crazy conspiracy theories? Is the Vatican or the Freemasons involved? Jews?
Are there brochures asking Americans to lose some weight before our trip and to practice speaking softly?
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 09:36:44 AM
Are there brochures asking Americans to lose some weight before our trip and to practice speaking softly?
BASED ON MY EXPERIENCES IN EUROPE, THERE SHOULD BE. :)
I would be happy if the locals stopped talking on their cell phones all the time while on the subway.
Quote from: Legbiter on June 23, 2014, 09:08:14 AM
Nor should red wine be ordered with fish – for seafood, it has to be white wine every time.
Wrong.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 09:35:56 AM
Wait your buddy's Brit-Indian wife's uncle? What are his crazy conspiracy theories? Is the Vatican or the Freemasons involved? Jews?
It's been 3-4 years now since he's visited, so I can't remember many specifics. But anytime a conversation touches on politics or current events, he can't speak a sentence without the word "Halliburton". He accused Tony Blair, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Barack Obama of all sorts of wacky stuff.
He's a lapsed Muslim and gives his nephews shit about their strict observance of Muslim dietary laws (the girls in the family seem to do whatever they want). One time we went out to a steakhouse he was making a big deal in front of my buddy's brothers in law about the fact that he was eating a non-halal steak & how delicious it was. But to put him to the true test I asked him if he'd like to try one of the pork chops I ordered, and he recoiled in horror at the thought of eating pork.
Still an entertaining guy despite his quirks.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 10:12:12 AM
One time we went out to a steakhouse he was making a big deal in front of my buddy's brothers in law about the fact that he was eating a non-halal steak & how delicious it was. But to put him to the true test I asked him if he'd like to try one of the pork chops I ordered, and he recoiled in horror at the thought of eating pork.
Probably more a cultural thing, that a religious one. In many cultures, pigs are seen as basically unclean, quite aside from the religious prohibilition - much like how we would react to being asked to eat rat meat.
Quote from: Legbiter on June 23, 2014, 09:08:14 AM
In Italy the problem is Russian tourists. :lol:
QuoteAs the summer tourist season approaches, Italians have a message for their rich Russian visitors – you may be minted, but you have no manners.
Big-spending Russians have proved a lifeline for the Italian tourist sector during the last few years of economic recession but they are often perceived as brash, boorish and rude.
Now a hotel owner in Tuscany – the Russians' favourite destination – has produced a television commercial which aims to educate wealthy Muscovites and other Russian visitors about the finer points of Italian etiquette.
....
They are told that ordering a cappuccino after lunch is an unforgivable faux pas – in Italy the frothy coffee is seen as an exclusively morning drink. Italians instead would order an espresso or a caffe macchiato – an espresso with a dash of milk. Nor should red wine be ordered with fish – for seafood, it has to be white wine every time. Cashed-up Russians are also warned that it is vulgar to choose the most expensive wine on the list.
....
Even showy Italians baulk at Russian women wearing barely-there, sequinned bikinis and swim costumes.
"Russian women who love to wear high heels and tiny bikinis should perhaps avoid those," she says.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10889446/Italian-hotel-owner-issues-etiquette-guide-for-uncouth-Russian-tourists.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/10889446/Italian-hotel-owner-issues-etiquette-guide-for-uncouth-Russian-tourists.html)
Italian wine is so mild, I don't see a problem with ordering red wine for fish. If it was Australian wine, I'd understand.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:21:54 AM
Probably more a cultural thing, that a religious one. In many cultures, pigs are seen as basically unclean, quite aside from the religious prohibilition - much like how we would react to being asked to eat rat meat.
He's lived his entire life in the UK, though.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 10:32:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:21:54 AM
Probably more a cultural thing, that a religious one. In many cultures, pigs are seen as basically unclean, quite aside from the religious prohibilition - much like how we would react to being asked to eat rat meat.
He's lived his entire life in the UK, though.
Still, one's culture depends a lot on the immediate people you hang with - like your immediate family.
I would not start eating dog just because I moved to Korea.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:40:56 AM
Still, one's culture depends a lot on the immediate people you hang with - like your immediate family.
Yep. Still no excuse for denying yourself the deliciousness of pork IMO.
QuoteI would not start eating dog just because I moved to Korea.
That's not quite as ubiquitous as pork consumption in the UK.
Anyway, I get the vibe from this dude that he has a bit of residual Islamishness in him that he's not owning up to.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:40:56 AM
I would not start eating dog just because I moved to Korea.
I would. When in Rome.
Non-Muslims in India eat Pork just fine. Just like Christians in the Middle East do. I question the cultural part.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 10:49:57 AM
I would. When in Rome.
Yeah. Long pig in Papua New Guinea too.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 10:49:57 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:40:56 AM
I would not start eating dog just because I moved to Korea.
I would. When in Rome.
Non-Muslims in India eat Pork just fine. Just like Christians in the Middle East do. I question the cultural part.
Depends on what you are used to. Food preferences are funny that way. Americans generally will not eat horse, for example, even though horse is tasty.
The association of pigs with filth is pretty strong, and it is backed up by the fact that pig meat has to be well-cooked because pigs carry diseases people get.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 10:49:57 AM
Non-Muslims in India eat Pork just fine.
You sure? I've never seen a pork dish on the menu at an Indian restaurant.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:54:53 AM
Americans generally will not eat horse, for example, even though horse is tasty.
Yeah but we eat only four land-dwelling animals: Chickens, Cattle, Turkeys, and pigs. And nothing else. No idea why. We shoot all these deer but that rarely shows up anywhere.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2014, 10:55:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 10:49:57 AM
Non-Muslims in India eat Pork just fine.
You sure? I've never seen a pork dish on the menu at an Indian restaurant.
That a fact? Strange I love Pork Vindaloo. But it seems in the Hindu mainstream pork is something only for the lower castes and untouchables.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 11:08:07 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on June 23, 2014, 10:55:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 10:49:57 AM
Non-Muslims in India eat Pork just fine.
You sure? I've never seen a pork dish on the menu at an Indian restaurant.
That a fact? Strange I love Pork Vindaloo. But it seems in the Hindu mainstream pork is something only for the lower castes and untouchables.
Pork-eating is common in Goan cooking, because of all those pork-eating portuguese.
Otherwise, pig meat is fit for lower-caste people or religious minorities, because it is culturally sorta filthy.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 11:03:45 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:54:53 AM
Americans generally will not eat horse, for example, even though horse is tasty.
Yeah but we eat only four land-dwelling animals: Chickens, Cattle, Turkeys, and pigs. And nothing else. No idea why. We shoot all these deer but that rarely shows up anywhere.
Well, it isn't because Americans are very religious. I mean, on average they are, but that isn't why they don't eat horse. :lol:
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:54:53 AM
The association of pigs with filth is pretty strong, and it is backed up by the fact that pig meat has to be well-cooked because pigs carry diseases people get.
:rolleyes: Keep it in the temple, dude.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:13:44 AM
Well, it isn't because Americans are very religious. I mean, on average they are,
Wrong.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 11:16:43 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:54:53 AM
The association of pigs with filth is pretty strong, and it is backed up by the fact that pig meat has to be well-cooked because pigs carry diseases people get.
:rolleyes: Keep it in the temple, dude.
Me? I love me some bacon. Cooked nice and crispy. :mmm:
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 23, 2014, 11:17:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:13:44 AM
Well, it isn't because Americans are very religious. I mean, on average they are,
Wrong.
http://blow.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/29/why-is-america-so-religious/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
Hungarians eat pork like there is no tomorrow, but I never cared for it. So it can be personal as well, not just cultural. :P
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:19:00 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 11:16:43 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:54:53 AM
The association of pigs with filth is pretty strong, and it is backed up by the fact that pig meat has to be well-cooked because pigs carry diseases people get.
:rolleyes: Keep it in the temple, dude.
Me? I love me some bacon. Cooked nice and crispy. :mmm:
I was kidding.
Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Hungarians eat pork like there is no tomorrow, but I never cared for it. So it can be personal as well, not just cultural. :P
Whatever you say Mohammed.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:54:53 AM
The association of pigs with filth is pretty strong, and it is backed up by the fact that pig meat has to be well-cooked because pigs carry diseases people get.
I've eaten pork cooked less than well done (including in restaurants).
Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Hungarians eat pork like there is no tomorrow, but I never cared for it. So it can be personal as well, not just cultural. :P
You hate bacon? I am not sure what to think of you anymore.
I refuse to believe that someone can "not like" pork. Tamas likes pork, he just hasn't had the right pork yet.
Quote from: Tamas on June 23, 2014, 11:26:47 AM
Hungarians eat pork like there is no tomorrow, but I never cared for it. So it can be personal as well, not just cultural. :P
Back in the 80s my dad used to buy canned "Celebrity" brand bacon at K-Mart for when we went camping. Tasted okay but was salty as hell and was made in: Hungary.
As a precocious youth during that time, I worried that our money was going to an oppressive communist regime.
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2014, 11:28:03 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:54:53 AM
The association of pigs with filth is pretty strong, and it is backed up by the fact that pig meat has to be well-cooked because pigs carry diseases people get.
I've eaten pork cooked less than well done (including in restaurants).
It isn't recommended. However, in the US, chances of getting a disease from undercooked pork are slight, because of extensive anti-infection measures. In the third world, though ...
http://www.medic8.com/healthguide/food-poisoning/pork-food-poisoning.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichinosis
Pork tastes better well-done or medium-well anyway-- particularly a bit crispy on the edges.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:21:47 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 23, 2014, 11:17:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:13:44 AM
Well, it isn't because Americans are very religious. I mean, on average they are,
Wrong.
http://blow.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/29/why-is-america-so-religious/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
From your own link:
QuoteDespite its wealth, the United States is in the middle of the global pack when it comes to the importance of religion.
Also, possibly unlike your typical NYT reporter, I actually know religious people. Most don't treat it with that much importance, even if they claim otherwise when answering a poll.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:19:00 AM
Me? I love me some bacon. Cooked nice and crispy. :mmm:
Are you aware you are bringing sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight and sap your strength upon yourself? Granted I guess you do the same thing every time you do not put to death a guy who you are reasonably sure recently laid with another guy as if he was a woman.
I eat pork Rosé...Pink. Well done is for barbarian and babyboomers.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 23, 2014, 11:40:06 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:21:47 AM
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 23, 2014, 11:17:24 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:13:44 AM
Well, it isn't because Americans are very religious. I mean, on average they are,
Wrong.
http://blow.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/29/why-is-america-so-religious/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0
From your own link:
QuoteDespite its wealth, the United States is in the middle of the global pack when it comes to the importance of religion.
Also, possibly unlike your typical NYT reporter, I actually know religious people. Most don't treat it with that much importance, even if they claim otherwise when answering a poll.
"... in the middle of the
global pack ...". :lol: Note the emphasis. When you compare the US to places like Lebanon or India, it is "average" in religiousity. Not when you compare the US with places like Germany or Australia.
From the quote you quoted:
Quote"... Indeed, on this question, the U.S. is closer to considerably less developed nations such as India, Brazil and Lebanon than to other western nations."
The US is, famously, much more religious as a population in average than the
First-world "pack". Note that over 80% in the US allegedly rate being religious as "important".
So "very religious" doesn't mean "more religious than most". It means "more religious than me". This is what I thought.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 23, 2014, 01:05:22 PM
So "very religious" doesn't mean "more religious than most". It means "more religious than me". This is what I thought.
"More religious than any others in the First world". :hmm:
The thing you have to understand is that football is considered a religion here. So when people ask us if religion is important the answer is pretty obvious. At the end of the day it is the only way we can get people to continue to support public education.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 01:18:05 PM
The thing you have to understand is that football is considered a religion here. So when people ask us if religion is important the answer is pretty obvious. At the end of the day it is the only way we can get people to continue to support public education.
I guess that also explains the pigs not being filthy thing - after all, weren't footballs traditionally made of pig-skin? :hmm:
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 01:20:02 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 01:18:05 PM
The thing you have to understand is that football is considered a religion here. So when people ask us if religion is important the answer is pretty obvious. At the end of the day it is the only way we can get people to continue to support public education.
I guess that also explains the pigs not being filthy thing - after all, weren't footballs traditionally made of pig-skin? :hmm:
It is a religious commandment to eat sausages at our religious festivals.
Why would you compare America to countries in the First World? :lol:
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2014, 11:34:48 AM
I refuse to believe that someone can "not like" pork. Tamas likes pork, he just hasn't had the right pork yet.
Don't be that guy. We don't need another food asshole on this planet.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:36:19 AM
In the third world, though ...
that goes for about everything doesn't it :-/
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 23, 2014, 03:08:09 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:36:19 AM
In the third world, though ...
that goes for about everything doesn't it :-/
The issue though is "why scarfing down raw pork is associated with bad stuff". The reason: until recently, it was strongly associated with dying of diseases, even in the first world, and it still is in the third world. It still isn't a great idea though even in the first world, as the medical website points out:
QuoteIgnore recipes which call for pork to be lightly cooked or undercooked.
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 23, 2014, 02:35:20 PM
Quote from: alfred russel on June 23, 2014, 11:34:48 AM
I refuse to believe that someone can "not like" pork. Tamas likes pork, he just hasn't had the right pork yet.
Don't be that guy. We don't need another food asshole on this planet.
Chili doesn't have beans damnit! I WILL NOT HAVE MY GLORIOUS CULTURE DISRESPECTED SO!!11
Chili without beans is kind of boring.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:40:42 PM
Chili without beans is kind of boring.
What is so exciting about beans?
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 03:24:45 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 23, 2014, 03:08:09 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 11:36:19 AM
In the third world, though ...
that goes for about everything doesn't it :-/
The issue though is "why scarfing down raw pork is associated with bad stuff". The reason: until recently, it was strongly associated with dying of diseases, even in the first world, and it still is in the third world. It still isn't a great idea though even in the first world, as the medical website points out:
QuoteIgnore recipes which call for pork to be lightly cooked or undercooked.
I'm not disputing the general stupidity of eating pork (or most other meats) raw. far from it.
But calling the animal "unclean" because people can't be 'bothered' to prepare it correctly is just so typically... human.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 03:41:57 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:40:42 PM
Chili without beans is kind of boring.
What is so exciting about beans?
By themselves, very little. They add a lot to chili, though.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:50:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 03:41:57 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:40:42 PM
Chili without beans is kind of boring.
What is so exciting about beans?
By themselves, very little. They add a lot to chili, though.
Maybe your shit Ohio chili.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 03:54:22 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:50:31 PM
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 03:41:57 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:40:42 PM
Chili without beans is kind of boring.
What is so exciting about beans?
By themselves, very little. They add a lot to chili, though.
Maybe your shit Ohio chili.
No. Cincinnati chili is better without beans. Though by itself it is basically just hot dog sauce (like regular chili without beans). So you need to pour it over spaghetti and add shredded cheese and maybe onions to make it a proper dish.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 23, 2014, 03:42:00 PM
I'm not disputing the general stupidity of eating pork (or most other meats) raw. far from it.
But calling the animal "unclean" because people can't be 'bothered' to prepare it correctly is just so typically... human.
It is a matter of prejudices reinforcing themselves.
Pigs were (and are) often used, essentially, as garbage disposal. That associates them in people's minds with garbage and filth.
Then, people in a pre-scientific age noticed that people who ate pork got sick more often than people who did not - because in an era without refrigeration and with spotty culinary habits, this was likely true.
So, the prejudice developed that eating pig was gross. In some places, this allegedly hardened into a religious prohibition. But even removing the religion, the prejudice can remain.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 03:57:31 PM
So, the prejudice developed that eating pig was gross. In some places, this allegedly hardened into a religious prohibition. But even removing the religion, the prejudice can remain.
allegedly?
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 03:24:45 PM. It still isn't a great idea though even in the first world, as the medical website points out:
QuoteIgnore recipes which call for pork to be lightly cooked or undercooked.
:rolleyes:
Millions of Spaniards eat uncooked pork in abundance without dropping like flies. The few cases of Trichinosis are due to eating wild boars and other uncontrolled animals. Don't you have food & health inspections across the Pond?
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:57:03 PM
So you need to pour it over spaghetti and add shredded cheese and maybe onions to make it a proper dish.
btw before I came down here I never had chili that way and quite frankly thought it sounded insane. However I have since grown quite fond of it. :cool:
Quote from: Iormlund on June 23, 2014, 04:07:08 PM
:rolleyes:
Millions of Spaniards eat uncooked pork in abundance without dropping like flies. The few cases of Trichinosis are due to eating wild boars and other uncontrolled animals. Don't you have food & health inspections across the Pond?
Ha, it's like my mother in law refusing to eat sushi because "IT'S DANGEROUS LOL". Interesting, then I guess the Japanese must be immortal or something? :hmm:
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2014, 04:03:18 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 03:57:31 PM
So, the prejudice developed that eating pig was gross. In some places, this allegedly hardened into a religious prohibition. But even removing the religion, the prejudice can remain.
allegedly?
It isn't certain that the religious prohibition came from the practical issues. After all, the Jewish Kosher laws contain other items that make no practical sense at all.
Quote from: Iormlund on June 23, 2014, 04:07:08 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 03:24:45 PM. It still isn't a great idea though even in the first world, as the medical website points out:
QuoteIgnore recipes which call for pork to be lightly cooked or undercooked.
:rolleyes:
Millions of Spaniards eat uncooked pork in abundance without dropping like flies. The few cases of Trichinosis are due to eating wild boars and other uncontrolled animals. Don't you have food & health inspections across the Pond?
As I already said in this thread, and more than once, in the first world that actual danger is slight.
Quote from: Caliga on June 23, 2014, 04:11:39 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:57:03 PM
So you need to pour it over spaghetti and add shredded cheese and maybe onions to make it a proper dish.
btw before I came down here I never had chili that way and quite frankly thought it sounded insane. However I have since grown quite fond of it. :cool:
I've always been pretty fond of it, but to the uninitiated I basically say not to think of it as chili. It's closer to Greek food than to anything else.
Quote from: Caliga on June 23, 2014, 04:12:49 PM
Ha, it's like my mother in law refusing to eat sushi because "IT'S DANGEROUS LOL". Interesting, then I guess the Japanese must be immortal or something? :hmm:
To be fair, you could say the same about drinking the water in Mexico.
Quote from: Caliga on June 23, 2014, 04:12:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on June 23, 2014, 04:07:08 PM
:rolleyes:
Millions of Spaniards eat uncooked pork in abundance without dropping like flies. The few cases of Trichinosis are due to eating wild boars and other uncontrolled animals. Don't you have food & health inspections across the Pond?
Ha, it's like my mother in law refusing to eat sushi because "IT'S DANGEROUS LOL". Interesting, then I guess the Japanese must be immortal or something? :hmm:
Hey if you're in Japan, living on an island close t the sea where you can get very fresh seafood, sushi sounds like a great idea.
If you're living a thousand miles inland however...
If you're making sushi from fish that's not been frozen for at least 24 hours, you're stupid.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 04:22:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on June 23, 2014, 04:07:08 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 03:24:45 PM. It still isn't a great idea though even in the first world, as the medical website points out:
QuoteIgnore recipes which call for pork to be lightly cooked or undercooked.
:rolleyes:
Millions of Spaniards eat uncooked pork in abundance without dropping like flies. The few cases of Trichinosis are due to eating wild boars and other uncontrolled animals. Don't you have food & health inspections across the Pond?
As I already said in this thread, and more than once, in the first world that actual danger is slight.
Except a lot of the raw meat recipes in Europe are traditional. And for good reason. They are delicious.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:57:03 PM
No. Cincinnati chili is better without beans. Though by itself it is basically just hot dog sauce (like regular chili without beans). So you need to pour it over spaghetti and add shredded cheese and maybe onions to make it a proper dish.
Just to clarify, does this chili have any actual hot peppers in it?
Quote from: Barrister on June 23, 2014, 04:25:22 PM
Quote from: Caliga on June 23, 2014, 04:12:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on June 23, 2014, 04:07:08 PM
:rolleyes:
Millions of Spaniards eat uncooked pork in abundance without dropping like flies. The few cases of Trichinosis are due to eating wild boars and other uncontrolled animals. Don't you have food & health inspections across the Pond?
Ha, it's like my mother in law refusing to eat sushi because "IT'S DANGEROUS LOL". Interesting, then I guess the Japanese must be immortal or something? :hmm:
Hey if you're in Japan, living on an island close t the sea where you can get very fresh seafood, sushi sounds like a great idea.
If you're living a thousand miles inland however...
Or you could live in Vancouver. :P Fyi, most fish is frozen at some point in the supply chain. Rarely can a restaurant get fish right off the boat. It can happen here in Vancouver but it is not necessary for good sushi.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2014, 04:33:49 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 04:22:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on June 23, 2014, 04:07:08 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 03:24:45 PM. It still isn't a great idea though even in the first world, as the medical website points out:
QuoteIgnore recipes which call for pork to be lightly cooked or undercooked.
:rolleyes:
Millions of Spaniards eat uncooked pork in abundance without dropping like flies. The few cases of Trichinosis are due to eating wild boars and other uncontrolled animals. Don't you have food & health inspections across the Pond?
As I already said in this thread, and more than once, in the first world that actual danger is slight.
Except a lot of the raw meat recipes in Europe are traditional. And for good reason. They are delicious.
Are you claiming that there was no danger in "traditionally" eating undercooked pork? :hmm:
I suspect people "traditionally" suffered from a high frequency of food poisioning and parasites from such "delicious" past repasts.
Quote from: Peter Wiggin on June 23, 2014, 04:36:18 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:57:03 PM
No. Cincinnati chili is better without beans. Though by itself it is basically just hot dog sauce (like regular chili without beans). So you need to pour it over spaghetti and add shredded cheese and maybe onions to make it a proper dish.
Just to clarify, does this chili have any actual hot peppers in it?
I believe it has cayenne pepper.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 04:21:36 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2014, 04:03:18 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 03:57:31 PM
So, the prejudice developed that eating pig was gross. In some places, this allegedly hardened into a religious prohibition. But even removing the religion, the prejudice can remain.
allegedly?
It isn't certain that the religious prohibition came from the practical issues. After all, the Jewish Kosher laws contain other items that make no practical sense at all.
I wonder where the blood in eggs originates from ?
My mother was always concerned about that, I assumed it was because she had a lot of Jewish friends / dated a couple of Jewish guys.
But maybe it's a wider cross cultural prohibition? :unsure:
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 04:48:44 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2014, 04:33:49 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 04:22:49 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on June 23, 2014, 04:07:08 PM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 03:24:45 PM. It still isn't a great idea though even in the first world, as the medical website points out:
QuoteIgnore recipes which call for pork to be lightly cooked or undercooked.
:rolleyes:
Millions of Spaniards eat uncooked pork in abundance without dropping like flies. The few cases of Trichinosis are due to eating wild boars and other uncontrolled animals. Don't you have food & health inspections across the Pond?
As I already said in this thread, and more than once, in the first world that actual danger is slight.
Except a lot of the raw meat recipes in Europe are traditional. And for good reason. They are delicious.
Are you claiming that there was no danger in "traditionally" eating undercooked pork? :hmm:
I suspect people "traditionally" suffered from a high frequency of food poisioning and parasites from such "delicious" past repasts.
No, rather I am claiming the opposite. I am claiming that the danger is the same whether one is in the first world or not becuase the preparation of these dishes does not rely on first world technology but rather the methods that have been used since long before we had refrigeration.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2014, 04:53:51 PM
No, rather I am claiming the opposite. I am claiming that the danger is the same whether one is in the first world or not becuase the preparation of these dishes does not rely on first world technology but rather the methods that have been used since long before we had refrigeration.
Not following you. Is there some method of safely preparing raw pork that doesn't rely on refrigeration or any other modern tech?
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 03:41:57 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 03:40:42 PM
Chili without beans is kind of boring.
What is so exciting about beans?
They make you toot. Which makes giving the wife a dutch oven more exciting. Chili farts make the best dutch ovens.
Yesterday I was sitting on a riverside park bench, when a couple sat next to me and the woman started smoking, yuck.
After a while the woman put the cigarette butt on the ground and stamped it out, I was just going to reminder her to pick it up when she left and put it in the bin, littering being an fixed penalty offense here, when I noticed they were speaking German. So didn't bother to make the point.
I guess there's a 1 in 10 chance they were Austrians, so no surprise there, if the case. :rolleyes:
Nonsense. Austrians never cause problems when they go abroad.
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 06:13:15 PM
Nonsense. Austrians never cause problems when they go abroad.
They were invited. Punch was served.
Quote from: mongers on June 23, 2014, 06:05:44 PM
Yesterday I was sitting on a riverside park bench, when a couple sat next to me and the woman started smoking, yuck.
After a while the woman put the cigarette butt on the ground and stamped it out, I was just going to reminder her to pick it up when she left and put it in the bin, littering being an fixed penalty offense here, when I noticed they were speaking German. So didn't bother to make the point.
I guess there's a 1 in 10 chance they were Austrians, so no surprise there, if the case. :rolleyes:
Sounds like a good way to start a fire, unless there was a special cigarette disposal bin thingie.
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 05:00:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2014, 04:53:51 PM
No, rather I am claiming the opposite. I am claiming that the danger is the same whether one is in the first world or not becuase the preparation of these dishes does not rely on first world technology but rather the methods that have been used since long before we had refrigeration.
Not following you. Is there some method of safely preparing raw pork that doesn't rely on refrigeration or any other modern tech?
maybe hanging it out to dry for months on end like Parma?
Quote from: Valmy on June 23, 2014, 10:49:57 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 10:40:56 AM
I would not start eating dog just because I moved to Korea.
I would. When in Rome.
It's really not that common.
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 04:48:54 PM
I believe it has cayenne pepper.
:hmm: Cincinnati chili ain't hot. In fact I often add tabasco to it @ Skyline.
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2014, 01:52:07 AM
It's really not that common.
But it is there right? I mean when I was in France I had to eat the most notorious stuff they eat. Frogs, snails, rabbits, goose livers, and so forth. Because I went all the way here I might as well. Actually they were all fantastic :frog:
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on June 24, 2014, 01:48:16 AM
Quote from: Malthus on June 23, 2014, 05:00:03 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 23, 2014, 04:53:51 PM
No, rather I am claiming the opposite. I am claiming that the danger is the same whether one is in the first world or not becuase the preparation of these dishes does not rely on first world technology but rather the methods that have been used since long before we had refrigeration.
Not following you. Is there some method of safely preparing raw pork that doesn't rely on refrigeration or any other modern tech?
maybe hanging it out to dry for months on end like Parma?
Well, sure, but I wouldn't describe that as "raw". More like "pork jerky".
I believe the principle flavoring in Cincy chilli is cinnamon.
Quote from: Caliga on June 24, 2014, 08:53:05 AM
Quote from: derspiess on June 23, 2014, 04:48:54 PM
I believe it has cayenne pepper.
:hmm: Cincinnati chili ain't hot. In fact I often add tabasco to it @ Skyline.
Yep. Didn't say how much they use. They also put paprika in it, but obviously not a lot of that, either. It's too "spicy" for people like my in-laws who have zero tolerance for spiciness. But for most of us it hardly registers.
They occasionally have jalapeno cheddar at Skyline and that helps kick it up a little.
Quote from: Caliga on June 24, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 24, 2014, 09:01:36 AM
It's too "spicy" for people like my in-laws
:huh:
Argies have a very low tolerance for any spiciness. Their food includes none of it. Most of them can't handle mild salsa.
:hmm: I have eaten at Argentine restaurants and I don't think the food was spicy, but I didn't really think anything of it at the time.
Quote from: Caliga on June 24, 2014, 12:13:00 PM
:hmm: I have eaten at Argentine restaurants and I don't think the food was spicy, but I didn't really think anything of it at the time.
They use a lot of garlic and some herbs in their cooking. They hardly ever even use black pepper. On our dinner tables we have salt & pepper. On an Argentine dinner table you have salt & salt (they really seem to like salt). Their pizza sauce tends to be a little bland as well.
Most people (not saying you or anyone else here) assume Argentine food = Mexican food. It's mainly Spanish/Italian with some French, German, and English influences, plus a few things they came up with on their own.
Quote from: derspiess on June 24, 2014, 12:10:45 PM
Quote from: Caliga on June 24, 2014, 12:04:45 PM
Quote from: derspiess on June 24, 2014, 09:01:36 AM
It's too "spicy" for people like my in-laws
:huh:
Argies have a very low tolerance for any spiciness. Their food includes none of it. Most of them can't handle mild salsa.
I learned something today.
Quote from: derspiess on June 24, 2014, 12:22:34 PM
Quote from: Caliga on June 24, 2014, 12:13:00 PM
:hmm: I have eaten at Argentine restaurants and I don't think the food was spicy, but I didn't really think anything of it at the time.
They use a lot of garlic and some herbs in their cooking. They hardly ever even use black pepper. On our dinner tables we have salt & pepper. On an Argentine dinner table you have salt & salt (they really seem to like salt). Their pizza sauce tends to be a little bland as well.
Most people (not saying you or anyone else here) assume Argentine food = Mexican food. It's mainly Spanish/Italian with some French, German, and English influences, plus a few things they came up with on their own.
That was my assumption going to south america - that it would be like mexican food. I was of course quite wrong in that, and Brazillians don't like or use any heat in their food.
I would never make that assumption. :) But I don't have any reason to anyway since I've eaten at Argentine, Spanish, and (real) Mexican restaurants, not to mention Cuban, Peruvian, Colombian, Portuguese, and Brazilian restaurants, so I've been directly exposed to all of these cuisines and am aware of the major differences.
Quote from: Barrister on June 24, 2014, 12:40:02 PM
Brazillians don't like or use any heat in their food.
I don't necessarily agree with this, as I have had spicy feijoada.
It's possible that Brazilians in the US have taken to spicy food though, I guess, as I've never been to Brazil and don't know for sure Brazilian restaurants in the US are the same as Brazilian restaurants in Brazil.... but I've been to Brazilian restaurants that cater mainly to Brazilians so I'm guessing they're basically the same.
I really need to check out one of the Churrascarias here.
Quote from: Caliga on June 24, 2014, 12:45:50 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 24, 2014, 12:40:02 PM
Brazillians don't like or use any heat in their food.
I don't necessarily agree with this, as I have had spicy feijoada.
It's possible that Brazilians in the US have taken to spicy food though, I guess, as I've never been to Brazil and don't know for sure Brazilian restaurants in the US are the same as Brazilian restaurants in Brazil.... but I've been to Brazilian restaurants that cater mainly to Brazilians so I'm guessing they're basically the same.
All I know is that when I went to Brazil the food was not spicy at all, and when asked my brother's in-laws said that Brazillians don't like spicy food.
Now it's a big, big country so maybe somewhere in Brazil they like spicy food, but not in Bahia.
Quote from: Caliga on June 24, 2014, 12:45:50 PM
I don't necessarily agree with this, as I have had spicy feijoada.
I have as well, but I suspect the restaurant "Mexicanized" their food a bit for more mass appeal.
Quote from: Barrister on June 24, 2014, 01:08:07 PM
Now it's a big, big country so maybe somewhere in Brazil they like spicy food, but not in Bahia.
Ok, if I remember my Brazilian geography correctly the Brazilians in Massachusetts mostly came from pretty much the opposite side of Brazil from Bahia. They were all from two places named Rio Grande do Sul and something like "Governador Valadares". I believe they're both in far southern Brazil near Uruguay.
Well FWIW Uruguayans don't like spicy food, either.
Quote from: Caliga on June 24, 2014, 01:41:05 PM
Quote from: Barrister on June 24, 2014, 01:08:07 PM
Now it's a big, big country so maybe somewhere in Brazil they like spicy food, but not in Bahia.
Ok, if I remember my Brazilian geography correctly the Brazilians in Massachusetts mostly came from pretty much the opposite side of Brazil from Bahia. They were all from two places named Rio Grande do Sul and something like "Governador Valadares". I believe they're both in far southern Brazil near Uruguay.
The weird thing about Bahian food is it
looks like it would be spicy - they make a lot of dishes using palm oil which gives it a deep red colour. But it's not spicy at all.
I think the feijoada thing might be the exception to the rule. I was thinking back to Brazilian buffets I'd eaten at and pretty much nothing on them was spicy at all. I was constantly adding hot sauce to stuff. Everything was delicious, just not spicy enough for me.
Quote from: Valmy on June 24, 2014, 08:54:44 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 24, 2014, 01:52:07 AM
It's really not that common.
But it is there right? I mean when I was in France I had to eat the most notorious stuff they eat. Frogs, snails, rabbits, goose livers, and so forth. Because I went all the way here I might as well. Actually they were all fantastic :frog:
Yeah, but compared to Samgyupsal and Galbi restaurants they're rare.