http://www.religionnews.com/2013/12/04/turkish-leaders-want-convert-hagia-sophia-back-mosque/
QuoteISTANBUL (RNS) In this ancient city, there are few sights more iconic than the dome of the Hagia Sophia, towering over the old city for more than 1,400 years.
But recent conversions of former Byzantine-era churches from museums into mosques, encouraged by religious and political leaders, have caused alarm among religious minorities and Turkey's Christian neighbors.
"We currently stand next to the Hagia Sophia Mosque," Turkey's deputy prime minister, Bulent Arinc, remarked last month during a dedication of a museum of Caucasus carpets and rugs in the Hagia Sophia complex. "We are looking at a sad Hagia Sophia but hopefully we will see it smiling again soon."
Arinc, also a senior Cabinet minister from the ruling Islamic-rooted Justice and Development Party, mentioned two recent conversions of smaller Byzantine-era museums — in Trabzon in the northeast and Iznik near Istanbul — that have become working mosques.
The speech was just the latest call for the building to be converted into a mosque after a sermon in October by the imam of the neighboring Sultan Ahmet mosque. He told worshippers a conversion must take place, and his comments were soon followed by a campaign launched by the far-right National Turkish Student Association.
Reaction from the Greek Foreign Ministry to the Arinc speech was swift, calling the speech "an insult to the religious sensibilities of millions of Christians and actions that are anachronistic and incomprehensible from a state that declares it wants to participate as a full member in the European Union."
"If it is to reopen as a house of worship, then it should open as a Christian church," the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew — the Archbishop of Constantinople — told Turkish newspaper Milliyet in February, saying that the Hagia Sophia had served as a Christian church for hundreds of years before Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Turks in 1453.
"It was built as a church and not a mosque," he added.
The Hagia Sophia has been standing since 360, when the first church was constructed soon after the Roman Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity. Two more churches were built on the same site in 415 and in 532.
The Ottoman conquerors refurbished the building into a mosque in 1453. It became a museum after a decree by the founder of Turkey's secular republic, Kemal Mustafa Ataturk, in 1935.
Some critics say the spate of conversions of Byzantine-era Christian houses of worship from museums to mosques reflects the government's payback against Turkey's former secular military elite, which has historically jailed leaders of religious parties and staged coups against elected governments.
"It is mostly a challenge to the secular rulers of Turkish republic," said Engin Akyurek, a professor of Byzantine art at Istanbul University.
The government "re-converts church-mosques which were used as museums during the republican era so it is related to the domestic politics," he said.
Still, despite concerns, the conversions continue.
In recent weeks it was announced that the Monastery of Stoudios — the largest Byzantine-era monastery in Istanbul — would be converted into a mosque next year. Part of the former monastery complex became a mosque in the 15th century but fell into disrepair, and after being gutted by two fires, it was abandoned in 1920.
Historians say this will destroy one of Istanbul's earliest Byzantine monuments.
"To use this building for some function, a mosque or anything else, would mean to reconstruct almost 80 percent of the building," said Akyurek. "So, it will not be a fifth-century building anymore. It will be a catastrophe for that building."
With provincial elections slated for March — and expected to be a crucial test of the government's decade-long rule — some see the museum-to-mosque conversions as a way for the Justice and Development Party to shore up its religiously conservative base, especially in the face of large protests earlier this year challenging its conservative policies, such as a tightening of the sale of alcohol.
Still, others are wary that the party's political strategy to court religious voters will do irreparable damage to the country's cultural and religious monuments and antagonize other religions.
"Supporting the reopening of Hagia Sophia has become the litmus test of the true believer," said Professor Robert Ousterhout, director of the Center for Ancient Studies at the University of Pennsylvania. "Protests by the academic community have fallen on deaf ears."
YS/MG END RESNECK
You have no comment?
I have Turkish friends so I'm just going to try really hard to keep all of my comments bottled up and see what the reaction on the rest of the board is. Suffice it to say, I have no pleasant comments.
What difference does it make? It's a building. It'll still be a building.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 12:29:28 PM
I have Turkish friends so I'm just going to try really hard to keep all of my comments bottled up and see what the reaction on the rest of the board is. Suffice it to say, I have no pleasant comments.
Nor should you, for it is no laughing matter; and besides, what devil or witch was ever so great as Spellus, whose blood flows in those veins?
There is much to be learnt from beasts.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 12:29:28 PM
I have Turkish friends so I'm just going to try really hard to keep all of my comments bottled up and see what the reaction on the rest of the board is. Suffice it to say, I have no pleasant comments.
What would be the harm? It was a mosque for hundreds of years. It's not like the Turks didn't have to work for it.
They'd have to cover up the art and bring in carpets.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 12:37:25 PM
They'd have to cover up the art and bring in carpets.
Horrorific.
The building will be happy to be back in use.
The Blue Mosque is right next door and half of it is still fenced off for prayer. I don't want the Hagia Sophia to have the same strong smell of socks.
I agree with the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew.
I can't think of anything positive to say.
Will Constantinople become an immediate and unconditional ally of whoever liberates the city?
There's like 16 million Muslims there. It's hard to liberate a city by kicking out 16,000,000 Muslims for maybe 30,000 Christians.
Not true.
I liberated Athens after it had been occupied by the Aztecs for almost a 1000 years and it became my perma-ally, granting open borders and shit.
When I was in Istanbul, I had just visited the Hagia Sophia and had started out on the street, when I noticed it was time for prayer. Lots of Arab tourists, among other people, were headed towards the Blue Mosque. As I was taking in the atmosphere and strolling down the street, a man with a submachine gun suddenly appeared out of nowhere and started blocking off the sidewalk. I started to cross the street, a little concerned, but then I saw Tayyip Erdogan right there, headed for afternoon prayer at the Blue Mosque. I waved to him and he waved back. :)
That's...kind of cool actually. When I was in the Alaeddin Mosque in Konya a redhaired janitor with a Wahhabi beard (neck, no mustache) started screaming that I was an infidel and that I should get out, which was quite confusing because I was being extremely respectful. :(
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 06:15:01 PM
That's...kind of cool actually. When I was in the Alaeddin Mosque in Konya a redhaired janitor with a Wahhabi beard (neck, no mustache) started screaming that I was an infidel and that I should get out, which was quite confusing because I was being extremely respectful. :(
Harsh toke.
Quote from: Siege on December 15, 2013, 06:02:05 PM
Not true.
I liberated Athens after it had been occupied by the Aztecs for almost a 1000 years and it became my perma-ally, granting open borders and shit.
And I made a puppet Nazi Israel in Hearts of Iron 2. And just laughed and laughed.
Big deal.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 06:15:01 PM
That's...kind of cool actually. When I was in the Alaeddin Mosque in Konya a redhaired janitor with a Wahhabi beard (neck, no mustache) started screaming that I was an infidel and that I should get out, which was quite confusing because I was being extremely respectful. :(
So, what you are saying i that even being extremely respectful is not enough to avoid provoking and insulting?
Pretty much. Konya is one of my favorite cities in Turkey, though, and I actually love Seljuk architecture and art, but that was one of the more unpleasant memories of my time there. I think the guy might have been mentally ill, though.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 06:56:23 PM
Pretty much. Konya is one of my favorite cities in Turkey, though, and I actually love Seljuk architecture and art, but that was one of the more unpleasant memories of my time there. I think the guy might have been mentally ill, though.
seriously.. I demonstrate my self control by not responding to that in the manner you people expect... :pope:
"You people?"
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 07:02:30 PM
"You people?"
The ones who freak out about me giving my opinion of religion, theology and spiritual claims.
I consider myself to be a Christian, so I don't really know what lesson you are drawing from this. A crazy person told me to leave a Mosque when by everything I knew of Islamic practice I had every right to be there. That could happen almost literally everywhere.
I was once shooed out a downtown bus stop by a crazy black woman in her mid-50s. Does this mean I should be prejudiced against black women, or people who use public transport, or both?
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 07:10:05 PMDoes this mean I should be prejudiced against black women, or people who use public transport, or both?
[Languish] Yes. [/Languish]
No. One data point is not enough to formulate a valid generalization about an ethnic group.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 15, 2013, 07:51:12 PM
No. One data point is not enough to formulate a valid generalization about an ethnic group.
For Euros, it does. Data point = Jews.
Quote from: Capetan Mihali on December 15, 2013, 07:49:55 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 07:10:05 PMDoes this mean I should be prejudiced against black women, or people who use public transport, or both?
[Languish] Yes. [/Languish]
Don't forget, she was old too!
Quote from: Viking on December 15, 2013, 07:00:10 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 06:56:23 PM
Pretty much. Konya is one of my favorite cities in Turkey, though, and I actually love Seljuk architecture and art, but that was one of the more unpleasant memories of my time there. I think the guy might have been mentally ill, though.
seriously.. I demonstrate my self control by not responding to that in the manner you people expect... :pope:
I think you did a very good job. :)
I went to Hagia Sophia when I was in Istanbul. I was much of the opinion of Mark Twain; "It was the rustiest old barn in all of heathendom." Of course when I saw it, it was filled with Japanese tourists rather than with dervishes; but I don't see how reverting to the former will make much of a difference.
Rusty?
I don't think Twain is completely off-base. The half-hearted Islamization of the place did not do it any aesthetic favors, and at the time of Twain's writing all of the mosaics were covered. I think that's more or less true today as well, though. The building has had those awful scaffolds for decades because the Turks don't want to put in the money necessary to rebuild a Christian edifice.
Bulldoze the dump.
I'd rather it were a mosque than a museum.
That would entail covering up the art. Why in God's name would anyone ever want to do that? As far as I'm concerned it's already a shame that the inner cupola is covered.
Byzantium sucks.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2013, 08:55:56 PM
That would entail covering up the art. Why in God's name would anyone ever want to do that? As far as I'm concerned it's already a shame that the inner cupola is covered.
I'm sure photos of the art exist.
Not of the copula. And that's a pathetic excuse. Why don't we cover up the Mona Lisa so the Louvre can be used as a Mosque?
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2013, 08:55:56 PMThat would entail covering up the art. Why in God's name would anyone ever want to do that? As far as I'm concerned it's already a shame that the inner cupola is covered.
Meh. Sell the art to Venice.
I think buildings turned into museums are always a bit sad. Better a living, changing place of worship (even one that charges for entry and does guided tours and ultimately changes the fabric of the building) than a frozen piece of art.
I don't agree with that at all. The Ottomans and Republican Turks have hated that it was more impressive than any Mosque in Istanbul, or anywhere in the world, ever. They've never properly maintained the original artistic vision of the Byzantines, and their aesthetic "contributions" mostly amount to blocking mosaics and frescoes.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2013, 09:05:50 PM
Not of the copula. And that's a pathetic excuse. Why don't we cover up the Mona Lisa so the Louvre can be used as a Mosque?
That's a decision for the French.
Besides, the Hagia Sophia spent a huge amount of time as a mosque. If there's a need for mosque space, it would only make sense for it to revert.
I'm not really a fan of post-conquest Ottoman architecture at all, though. The color combinations are garish, it's always less architecturally impressive than Sophia or contemporary cathedrals, and the rigid post-Arab world conquest aniconic approach really limits the aesthetic. I actually love the old Ottoman mosque at Bursa at a lot of the pre-Ottoman mosques, though.
Quote from: Neil on December 16, 2013, 09:21:04 PM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2013, 09:05:50 PM
Not of the copula. And that's a pathetic excuse. Why don't we cover up the Mona Lisa so the Louvre can be used as a Mosque?
That's a decision for the French.
Besides, the Hagia Sophia spent a huge amount of time as a mosque. If there's a need for mosque space, it would only make sense for it to revert.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.impermium.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F12%2FTroll.png&hash=ca6c8867be923d657a99d9b9c41f7aab50d361d4)
The French don't even allow space for mosques in mosques.
I don't think you're a troll. I just think that the priorities of the the Turkish government are (and should be) different from your own priorities as a Byzanteen.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 16, 2013, 09:11:34 PM
Meh. Sell the art to Venice.
I think buildings turned into museums are always a bit sad. Better a living, changing place of worship (even one that charges for entry and does guided tours and ultimately changes the fabric of the building) than a frozen piece of art.
Disagree. I think art is fine, and doesn't need to be changed. Sometimes it is nice to see what people in another time considered high art, and not constantly be changing that art to keep up with modern sensibilities.
I don't think that churches are any more "living" than museums. They may be more "changing," but, as I say, I don't think that change is good merely for the sake of change.
First, I'd pave it over. Then I'd build a strip club on the site. Call it 'Turkish Delight' or something.
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 16, 2013, 09:30:49 PM
First, I'd pave it over. Then I'd build a strip club on the site. Call it 'Turkish Delight' or something.
Labia Sophia.
Hagia Sophia is the most famous building in Turkey. Converting it in to a mosque and destroying the art is an affront to the world cultural heritage. Also, Hagia Sophia has at least as much a cultural connection to the Orthodox world as it does to Turkey. Turning what was for 1,000 years the center of their faith back in to a bastion of heathenry is clearly offensive.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2013, 09:31:23 PM
Hagia Sophia is the most famous building in Turkey. Converting it in to a mosque and destroying the art is an affront to the world cultural heritage. Also, Hagia Sophia has at least as much a cultural connection to the Orthodox world as it does to Turkey. Turning what was for 1,000 years the center of their faith back in to a bastion of heathenry is clearly offensive.
You also think mountain dirt farmers in former Soviet Republics are the hottest chicks on the planet, so let's not start talking affronts and whatnot, mmmkay?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on December 16, 2013, 09:31:15 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 16, 2013, 09:30:49 PM
First, I'd pave it over. Then I'd build a strip club on the site. Call it 'Turkish Delight' or something.
Labia Sophia.
:lol:
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2013, 09:18:09 PM
I don't agree with that at all. The Ottomans and Republican Turks have hated that it was more impressive than any Mosque in Istanbul, or anywhere in the world, ever. They've never properly maintained the original artistic vision of the Byzantines, and their aesthetic "contributions" mostly amount to blocking mosaics and frescoes.
I think it's a bit ask for anyone to give a shit about maintaining a Medieval artistic vision beyond preserving and conserving what was achieved in that period. Aside from that buildings change and adapt, even if it's not to our taste. Personally I prefer that to either freezing a building or a restoration that could never be more than pastiche.
I like Coventry Cathedral and modernist pietas among 17th century frescoes. I think buildings are improved when they are palimpsests . Each generation leaving their own cares and priorities somehow on the building - obviously I'm far less keen on neglect or destruction but even those worst case situations aren't irredeemable.
Quote from: grumbler on December 16, 2013, 09:29:22 PMI don't think that churches are any more "living" than museums. They may be more "changing," but, as I say, I don't think that change is good merely for the sake of change.
I'd make a distinction between buildings built as museums which can live as much as anything else and buildings - whether places of worship, or castles, or whatever else - that are turned into museums. They're either reverentially frozen or just a theme park, I think a Byzantine Hagia Sofia would be firmly in the latter. They can still be interesting but I always think it's a bit sad.
I was a palimpset once, and nobody lavish care and attention on me. :mad:
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 16, 2013, 09:36:08 PM
I think it's a bit ask for anyone to give a shit about maintaining a Medieval artistic vision beyond preserving and conserving what was achieved in that period. Aside from that buildings change and adapt, even if it's not to our taste. Personally I prefer that to either freezing a building or a restoration that could never be more than pastiche.
I like Coventry Cathedral and modernist pietas among 17th century frescoes. I think buildings are improved when they are palimpsests . Each generation leaving their own cares and priorities somehow on the building - obviously I'm far less keen on neglect or destruction but even those worst case situations aren't irredeemable.
That's mostly bullshit. Thomas Whittmore and the Byzantine Institute of America's restorations of the original Byzantine mosaics in Hagia Sophia and the frescoes in Chora Church have VASTLY improved both buildings, and added greatly to our understanding and appreciation of Byzantine art. You're not going to convince many people that the wold-famous mosaic of Christ Pantocrator or the frescoes of the Parecclesion would have been better off as a plastered ceiling.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2013, 09:05:50 PM
Not of the copula. And that's a pathetic excuse. Why don't we cover up the Mona Lisa so the Louvre can be used as a Mosque?
The Mona Lisa is just one tiny painting in that museum.
No, I believe him. He's eccentric, but not unlovable. Hell, I would think he'd be quite the hit in certain crowds.
Quote from: dps on December 17, 2013, 12:09:41 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 12:29:28 PM
I have... ...friends
Yeah, right.
:lol:
Oh God, someone on the internet implied I have problems in my social life. This is terrible, because I'm a 12 year old girl with extreme anxiety issues who doubts that I have any legitimate friends.
Quote from: Queequeg on December 17, 2013, 12:15:02 AM
Quote from: dps on December 17, 2013, 12:09:41 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on December 15, 2013, 12:29:28 PM
I have... ...friends
Yeah, right.
:lol:
Oh God, someone on the internet implied I have problems in my social life. This is terrible, because I'm a 12 year old girl with extreme anxiety issues who doubts that I have any legitimate friends.
That's the age that dps likes to get them. I think he's using that seduction community technique of applying insults.
Wasn't that Drakken who was in the seduction community?
Quote from: Neil on December 17, 2013, 12:40:44 AM
Wasn't that Drakken who was in the seduction community?
And dps didn't like them young, just younger.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 16, 2013, 09:38:50 PM
I'd make a distinction between buildings built as museums which can live as much as anything else and buildings - whether places of worship, or castles, or whatever else - that are turned into museums.
I wouldn't make the distinction that you are making, obviously, because your distinction is merely circular reasoning. Museum buildings which are, themselves, part of the exhibit can be living, changing things as much as a building constructed to house some exhibits... certainly, as much as any church or mosque are.
QuoteThey're either reverentially frozen or just a theme park, I think a Byzantine Hagia Sofia would be firmly in the latter. They can still be interesting but I always think it's a bit sad.
I think that you are stuck in an artificial dichotomy here; there are many preserved buildings that are neither reverentially frozen nor just a theme park. The existing Hagia Sophia is rated at http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g293974-d294497-Reviews-Hagia_Sophia_Museum_Church_Ayasofya-Istanbul.html (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g293974-d294497-Reviews-Hagia_Sophia_Museum_Church_Ayasofya-Istanbul.html) as the fourth-best attraction (of 600) in Istambul, with 4.35 stars out of five. If this is what you consider bad, consider that your beloved Coventry Cathedral has a slightly worse rating, and is rated the #5 attraction out of 32 in Coventry. So, I guess that there are worse things than "just a theme park."
Quote from: Queequeg on December 16, 2013, 09:05:50 PM
Why don't we cover up the Mona Lisa so the Louvre can be used as a Mosque?
Give it some time.
The Latins should have knocked it down after the 4th Crusade.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 16, 2013, 09:11:34 PM
I think buildings turned into museums are always a bit sad. Better a living, changing place of worship (even one that charges for entry and does guided tours and ultimately changes the fabric of the building) than a frozen piece of art.
Sheilbh is just saying this to justify the continued use of the Pantheon as a church.
Can we use the Pyramids as a Mosque also Sheilbh?
Also museums are public buildings that are living and used so I do not get this bizarre assertion that they are frozen somehow.
Quote from: PDH on December 17, 2013, 08:36:57 AM
The Latins should have knocked it down after the 4th Crusade.
IT BELONGS IN A MUSEUM.
Er....
IT BELONGS AS A MUSEUM.
Give it to the Muslims on Fridays, give it to the Orthodox on Sundays. Another day for scholars and people who take an actual interest in the building. Tourists can visit on the other four days. If that's not enough, close it down and tax people for the upkeep. If you can't share it you can't have it at all.
Quote from: Maladict on December 17, 2013, 10:12:07 AM
Give it to the Muslims on Fridays, give it to the Orthodox on Sundays. Another day for scholars and people who take an actual interest in the building. Tourists can visit on the other four days. If that's not enough, close it down and tax people for the upkeep. If you can't share it you can't have it at all.
I don't understand why you would give it to any specific groups on any days. Just have people go there when they want, less a day a week when it is closed for maintenance. If someone wants to pray to any particular god or gods while they are there, then they can knock themselves right out. If someone can't share while they pray, then they can't have it at all.
Quote from: Valmy on December 17, 2013, 09:45:13 AMSheilbh is just saying this to justify the continued use of the Pantheon as a church.
:blush:
QuoteAlso museums are public buildings that are living and used so I do not get this bizarre assertion that they are frozen somehow.
As I say I think there's a difference between a museum and a building turned into a museum. The British Museum vs most of the Tower of London, say.
QuoteJust have people go there when they want, less a day a week when it is closed for maintenance. If someone wants to pray to any particular god or gods while they are there, then they can knock themselves right out.
They're not allowed to pray in Hagia Sophia. It was a big deal during Pope Benedict's visit over whether he'd do anything that would look like he was praying.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 17, 2013, 10:37:59 AM
As I say I think there's a difference between a museum and a building turned into a museum. The British Museum vs most of the Tower of London, say.
Well, the Louvre was a building (royal palace and residence till Louis XIV) turned into a museum. If we go by this logic...
I liked seeing the Loover.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 17, 2013, 10:37:59 AM
They're not allowed to pray in Hagia Sophia. It was a big deal during Pope Benedict's visit over whether he'd do anything that would look like he was praying.
:huh: How could someone possibly tell when another person is praying? That would take a mind-reader.
One isn't allowed to engage in religious ceremony in the HS, but that doesn't stop anyone from praying.
I know but it was a big deal for ages:
QuotePope Benedict XVI yesterday in Istanbul put an end to weeks of speculation in the Turkish press over whether or not he would pray in the Hagia Sophia museum. Instead of stopping to pray in the ancient Byzantine church, the Pope chose to pray in Istanbul's formidable Blue Mosque, turning to face Mecca alongside his Turkish host, Minister of Religious Affairs, Ali Bardakoglu.
I think they were worried he'd make a gesture like he was praying, or even pause a little to pensively. Instead he kept walking and looked engaged.
Quote from: PDH on December 17, 2013, 11:06:51 AM
I liked seeing the Loover.
I went to the Davout musuem.
Quote from: Sheilbh on December 17, 2013, 12:14:55 PM
the Pope chose to pray in Istanbul's formidable Blue Mosque, turning to face Mecca alongside his Turkish host, Minister of Religious Affairs, Ali Bardakoglu.
not the smartest thing he did. Over here it sends a message of interfaith dialogue. Over there it sends a wholly different message.