Go ahead. Spoil away. I won't watch this until the new year.
I hear there's going to be droids in it.
My friend flew from Australia for the première. Here's Mark Hamill high-fiving one of her sons on the red carpet.
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12391063_10153843727793035_5417330863222297124_n.jpg?oh=183b8372b7d8082ec0aee1e782d8f5f1&oe=56DFBC13)
I heard Han dies.
I might sith out the premiere here tomorrow.
It's crazy good.
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 09:31:41 AM
It's crazy good.
Serious? Huh.
I was going to wait for reviews.
Damn I thought George Lucas was bad, he was an amateur when it comes to whoring out Star Wars compared to Disney. Everything is freaking Star Wars, I bet you could buy light saber condoms. That has been a bit of a turnoff but I am trying not to hold that against the movie.
Quote from: Valmy on December 16, 2015, 09:33:23 AM
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 09:31:41 AM
It's crazy good.
Serious? Huh.
Serious. The soundtrack, the acting, the visuals, the story, everything was good. The trailer had me thinking it would be bad but I think it was misleading on purpose.
I mean, they could've toned down the referential stuff and gone new, but it gives me great hope for VIII. Which I'm sure will then fail accordingly.
Vader is Luke's father.
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 09:53:45 AM
I mean, they could've toned down the referential stuff and gone new, but it gives me great hope for VIII. Which I'm sure will then fail accordingly.
Was Episode VII A New Hope?
Sorry.
Anyway yeah they could be setting us up like they did with the Star Trek reboot.
One scene reminded me too much of the dreaded Unobtainium scene in Avatar. It was satire on the previous movies but it seemed to not be aware of it even if Abrams must have been.
Well, it was good as I said. The forest fighting scene was ace.
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on December 15, 2015, 11:42:09 AM
I heard Han dies.
[spoiler]In a heart wrenching scene, but Finn will be a good replacement, he was already better in this movie. That said, Ford delivered well above expectations, he seemed much more comfortable back in this role than as Indiana Jones[/spoiler]
How spoilertastic should this thread be?
Also, Rey is pretty much the most bad ass female hero I've ever seen.
Could I bring my five year old to see it? What say you Liep? I was that age when I saw RoTJ so I was planning on it.
Take him anyways. Age limits? PSHAW!
There's no gore, but they do aim better than in the first 6 movies.
5 years is maybe too young as there is more evil in this one than the others. And no ewoks to counter it.
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
5 years is maybe too young as there is more evil in this one than the others. And no ewoks to counter it.
I see. More evil than Empire Strikes Back?
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 16, 2015, 10:38:46 AM
Take him anyways. Age limits? PSHAW!
I just do not want him making me leave early :P
Quote from: Valmy on December 16, 2015, 10:43:31 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on December 16, 2015, 10:38:46 AM
Take him anyways. Age limits? PSHAW!
I just do not want him making me leave early :P
Tape him to the chair. Problem solved.
Quote from: Valmy on December 16, 2015, 10:43:11 AM
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
5 years is maybe too young as there is more evil in this one than the others. And no ewoks to counter it.
I see. More evil than Empire Strikes Back?
I'm pretty sure he'll love it, and you'll be ruined by all the LEGO Star Wars you need to buy for him, but there are a few scenes that maybe will be a bit too much, or maybe he won't understand those.
Random thought before going to sleep: Finn reminded me a fair bit of Dave Lister from Red Dwarf :D
Rambling time! :D
I grew up loving Star Wars. I also watched and liked other sci-fi, like Star Trek, but Star Wars was always somewhat special to me. Probably because of its elusiveness when I was a kid and young teen.
Return of the Jedi launched when I was 7. I had the Panini collectible sticker album that told the story of the movie and was fascinated. So I was all the more pissed when my family went to watch the movie - and did so without me and my next oldest sister. I did get my hands on the novelization and some toys, so there's that. We didn't have much money, so the bigger vehicles were out of the question, and I built spaceships from shoe boxes. A friend had pretty much all the toys, though, and we played with them a lot. And one of my favorite birthday gifts were the novelizations of ANH and ESB for my 11th birthday.
The movies were first shown on TV in the late 80s, and it was a major event. We didn't have a VCR at the time, so no taping. I did watch the movies at friends' places on occasion. And I collected the old Marvel comics that were released in Germany by Ehapa with always two issues in one volume. Our local bookstore wasn't too happy, because ordering the back issues meant having to write postcards to the publisher.
Later, when the THX version was released on video, I bought a collector's edition with a lot of extra features on a separate cassette. You can look at the contents here: http://s742.photobucket.com/user/theraygun/media/SW%20Tin%20Outer.jpg.html
(I later sold it when I needed some extra cash.)
I've never cared much for the Expanded Universe - at least not in what came after ROTJ. I read the Thrawn trilogy, and while it added some interesting characters, and some very unpronounceable names, it started a trend of the heroes who destroyed Vader and the Emperor facing a new Warlord/Emperor wannabe that just didn't grab. Me. Not to mention alien invasions from beyond. I did enjoy stories that expanded on the movies, or the time between them - Tales From the Mos Eisley Cantina and Tales From Jabba's Palace were great fun, and there's of course the Old Republic setting. For a while I bought any Star Wars game that was released, from X-Wing to Republic Commando, from Yoda Stories to The Old Republic, from Rebellion to Force Commander and Jedi Knight, Star Wars Galaxies to Star Wars Battlegrounds.
The first time I watched the old trilogy was when the Special Edition was released in 1997. I like some changes, don't like others. Bit of a mixed bag. But the fascination of the original movies was seeing glimpses of a fascinating universe and wondering what lies beyond, who this alien is, what that guy in the background does. It was a huge playground for me, and I didn't care too much about how long/fast a ship would be, or how a light saber functions. That's why I always loved the Tatooine scenes.
I don't find the prequels terrible, but they're a lot of wasted potential. They had in my opinion three questions to answer: 1. How does Anakin become Vader? 2. Who is Luke and Leia's mother? How did the Empire come to power and destroy the Jedi? The movies found answers, even decent premises, but lost them in stilted dialogue and an overabundance of CGI. Even otherwise decent actors turned out poor performances, and I'm sure Hayden Christensen, with a different director, could have been pretty good as Anakin. The best thing to come out of the prequels, IMHO, is the Clone Wars animated series.
Which brings me to Episode VII. SPOILERS AHEAD – skip if you want no spoilers.
I didn't expect much. I was originally not even hyped. But the trailers did pull me in eventually. I tried to avoid spoilers, or speculation, so I could go as blind as possible into the movie. I've been to two midnight premieres before: Episode 2 & Episode 3. This one in the IMAX was civil - a few cheers during the movie when familiar characters appeared, but otherwise no obnoxious talkers or such.
It was weird watching the opening crawl in 3D.
The movie banks a lot on nostalgia. It's not just bringing back familiar characters (Han, Luke, Leia, C-3PO, R2-D2, cameos by Ackbar and Nien Nunb ...), but the movie ... I don't want to say copies scenes, but it strongly alludes to them.
Take the opening: a rebel depositing vital information in a small droid that communicates in whistles, just before Stormtroopers and the evil guy in black arrive to capture that info. And the final assault on Starkiller base feel a bit like a mash up of the Death Star escape and Death Star attack of Ep. IV, and the assault on the shield generator from Ep. VI, and then there's an allusion to the cantina scene. And there's of course the original cast who are revealed piecemeal to the audience to give each of them their grand entrance.
The start of the movie had quite a few coincidences (i.e. everyone running into each other as the plot required) and I thought the encounter on Han's freighter was a bit unnecessary.
For the characters - I quite enjoyed Rey and Finn as new protagonists. They both have their moment of not wanting to deal with the stuff they're dragged into, but follow through in the end. I'm kind of curious how powerful Rey actually is. She instinctively taught herself force persuasion (hilarious scene, actually), force pull, and centering herself in the final duel. If that's what she can do without training ... Finn reminds me a bit of Dave Lister - a good heart, but out of his depth and trying to fake it till he makes it.
I was surprised by Kylo Ren. I expected a whiny guy (which he partly is), but while probably not the most effective (in terms of viewer response) villain of the movies, he's probably the most complex one. A dark side character tempted by the light side is a nice twist on things. He seems genuinely conflicted, in doubt, and unsure whether or not he's on the right path. It's the kind of performance you would have wanted out of Anakin Skywalker. And I thought the death of Han was handled very well, and I look forward to seeing how this shapes Kylo Ren's path.
The film is pretty action packed, in a fun way, there's serious moments, but also some good humor. The movie feels grittier than the original trilogy. If Ep. IV establish the "used universe" look, then this one goes for "things look even shittier after all this fighting." In the grim dark past of a galaxy far, far away there's only war? That even goes for the First Order which goes for a classic Empire aesthetic, but it doesn't look as clean or polished as the original Empire. And hair style wise, the Empire this time goes for a 1920s/30s look instead of the 1970s sideburns.
On the other side you have the resistance which is MUCH more colorful and diverse than the Rebel Alliance of old.
The 3D was very good in IMAX. The movie actually gave me one of the rare "Whoa" moments in a 3D movie when a Star Destroyer filled the screen, pointy end to the audience, and really gave me an immense feeling of scale. I could tell from audience reaction I wasn't alone in that. :lol:
My main complaint so far is Andy Serkis' Supreme Leader. What the fuck kind of name is "Snoke"? That sounds like a villain for Teddy Ruxpin or the Gummy Bears, or a dastardly politician/industrialist/gangster in a 1930s pulp novel. And the creature in its CGI-ness looked out of place. And it reminded me decidedly too much of arse face from the Preacher comics.
All in all, this was a fun romp. In tone it was closer to A New Hope than any of the other movies. I want to see this story continue and I want to watch it a few times more (I will see it twice more in the theater).
Open questions:
- I'm unclear on the situation in the galaxy. There's the Republic, the First Order and the Resistance. Republic and Resistance seem to be one. But are they the dominant force? Or is the First Order? It seems the First Order is trying to take over the galaxy, but why is there only a scrappy underground resistance poised against them?
- Will Luke start training Rey? Well, obviously he will, but he seems very reluctant, and I'm guessing Ep. VIII will focus on the conflict between eager student and reluctant teacher. The final image with Rey holding out Luke's old light saber, but him not taking it from her was a great way of ending the movie.
- What happens with Kylo Ren? Killing his father may have proven his conviction to Snoke, but is he really committed? What happened to the other Knights of Ren? Will we see them in the next movie? Were they all Luke's students?
- What's Snoke's endgame? He doesn't seem too fazed that he lost Starkiller base. (On Starkiller base – it uses the sun as energy; but what was the plan after using up the sun? Does that planet have an engine? And what planet was destroyed? They said in the movie, but I can't remember – it kinda looked like Coruscant, but I think it wasn't; at any rate, the scene was surprisingly not very effective – might have been different if they had hit a planet that we were very familiar with).
- How did Mos get Luke's light saber from Ep. V? (I think this might be in one of the comics, though.)
- For much of the movie I was expecting a reveal that Rey might be Kylo Ren's sister. I'm curious who her parents were, and if they hid her on Jakku to protect her from the hunt for Jedi and Force sensitives.
More thoughts may follow whenever I get around to them.
- Seemed to me the First Order was the challenger to the Republic, now they seem equally destroyed.
- Like Luke and Yoda
- I like Ren as a character, there's so many ways this can go
- Snoke is puzzling to me, also if it was hologram why did his projection need to be that big, and he didn't really look evil. Snoke? I agree that name is stupid.
- Didn't care
- Rey is awesome. Who told her all the stories about Jedis and the force? She seemed to have been alone forever on Jakku, except for her very young years. And was that a memory of her mother being taken away from her in that lightsaber scene? If it was because the parents were dangerous because of the force surely the assailants would've known the kid would probably be interesting as well. Is she Luke's daughter? That cantina owner surely implied it by saying it called for Anakin, then luke and now her. Rey is awesome.
Quote from: Syt on December 17, 2015, 05:21:06 AM
My main complaint so far is Andy Serkis' Supreme Leader. What the fuck kind of name is "Snoke"? That sounds like a villain for Teddy Ruxpin or the Gummy Bears, or a dastardly politician/industrialist/gangster in a 1930s pulp novel. And the creature in its CGI-ness looked out of place. And it reminded me decidedly too much of arse face from the Preacher comics.
Tbh, "Palpatine" wasn't much more threatening as a name. Or "Dooku". Let's face it, Star Wars villains tend to have silly names. :P
Quote from: Liep on December 17, 2015, 05:38:42 AM- Rey is awesome. Who told her all the stories about Jedis and the force? She seemed to have been alone forever on Jakku, except for her very young years. And was that a memory of her mother being taken away from her in that lightsaber scene? If it was because the parents were dangerous because of the force surely the assailants would've known the kid would probably be interesting as well. Is she Luke's daughter? That cantina owner surely implied it by saying it called for Anakin, then luke and now her. Rey is awesome.
She really is a very cool character. 2015 has been a good year for female action heroes with Ep. VII and Fury Road. Her being Luke's daughter would make sense; but then the next question is: where's the mother? I'm not surprised that she heard stories about Jedi. She grew up in a scavenger hub that digs up wrecks from a major battle between Rebels and Empire; it would make sense if some of the fortune seekers bring stories and legends with them.
Well, Sith masters seem to overcompensate in holograms (see Ep. V when Palpatine gives Vader a call). I found it notable that the hologram technology seems to have advanced, from badly shot blue tinted VHS to "looks like he's actually here."
Quote from: Solmyr on December 17, 2015, 05:50:04 AM
Tbh, "Palpatine" wasn't much more threatening as a name. Or "Dooku". Let's face it, Star Wars villains tend to have silly names. :P
Yeah, but Snoke takes the coke, uhm, cake. :P
Looked it up - the destroyed system was "Hosnian Prime" which is a new entry in the franchise. I guess after Star Trek Abrams thought he couldn't destroy another iconic planet. :D
Btw, is it me, or do all the people in the First Order (except Snoke) look very young? The Resistance has people of all ages, but First Order officers all seem to be in their 20s or early 30s.
Was I the only one who hated the Death Star has a weakness scene? I mean, it was so obviously a call back but I just thought it was handled very poorly. Like a complete break down of the 4th wall.
Well, the weakness it had was a tough nut. You have to disable the shield - for that you have to get through the shield, which you can only do at lightspeed, which only a small handful of pilots would be able to achieve. Then you need to know where the shield controls are, or have means of finding them - unless you have a spy who can provide that intel, it will take time to get there. And even then taking out the critical device takes a massive assault from inside and outside to destroy which required crack commandos, force users, and an insane pilot.
So yeah, it's a weakness, but it was much less of a "press here to destroy" weakness compared to Death Stars 1 & 2.
I said previously that Finn reminds me of Lister in Red Dwarf. I'll add that Poe Dameron (the pilot who's just awesome at everything and always has the perfect one liner or retort) could very well be the star Wars universe's Ace Rimmer.
Just got out of screening. I agree with Syt watching in IMAX 3D was enjoyable.
Still taking it in, but yeah a bit confused on the Republic/Resistance and how that is broken down.
I'm curious if Rey doesn't turn out to be Luke's kid.
And who/what Snoke is. (Sith lord or just a Dark side user)
As soon as the reveal that Ren is Hans's son knew he was a goner 😢
It may be a bit predictable, but that has to be expected, its almost like a reboot of the original. I can now read this thread.
Some more thoughts/responses to above comments:
Some great jokes/one liners. They catered to us old farts, and I'm so glad they did. Loved that. The moment that 3D Star Wars text with the music, my heart skipped a beat. I was so excited, like a child, what a great feeling to have as an adult. Same thing every time the old characters were presented, hell, I squealed like a girl when they ran to that piece of junk Millennium Falcon. :w00t:
Another Death Star?! Really?
The Snoke character? at least it was not Jar Jar Sith. :lol:
Kylo, he sure was unsure of himself, even with training he struggled against Rey that had no training at all but was so confident on her Force powers (that she just discovered? Really?) That was awesome anyway.
The Han and Kylo scene was done well even if it was sooo predictable. :(
And yes, I think Luke will train his daughter Rey. ;)
Oh, and the 3D was The Awesome, that Star Destroyer almost poked my eye. :D
I think it was a great movie, I will help it break records by going to watch it again this weekend. :)
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 18, 2015, 10:56:32 AMSome great jokes/one liners.
I think my favorite was the scene where Rey "learns" force persuasion with an unsuspecting Stormtrooper (".... aaand I'll drop my blaster"), plus the aftermath with Kylo flipping his shit and the other two Stormtroopers going, "Yeah, let's be somewhere else right now." :lol:
Quote from: Syt on December 18, 2015, 11:18:41 AM
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 18, 2015, 10:56:32 AMSome great jokes/one liners.
I think my favorite was the scene where Rey "learns" force persuasion with an unsuspecting Stormtrooper (".... aaand I'll drop my blaster")
And incidentally, that stormtrooper was James Bond. (http://epicstream.com/news/Daniel-Craigs-Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens-Cameo-Revealed) :D
Quote from: Syt on December 18, 2015, 11:18:41 AM
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 18, 2015, 10:56:32 AMSome great jokes/one liners.
I think my favorite was the scene where Rey "learns" force persuasion with an unsuspecting Stormtrooper (".... aaand I'll drop my blaster"), plus the aftermath with Kylo flipping his shit and the other two Stormtroopers going, "Yeah, let's be somewhere else right now." :lol:
Yeah, BTW, I read that the Stormtrooper that drops the gun is a Daniel Craig cameo.
Solmyr :glare:
So... did the First Order use Death Star 3 to destroy the Republic? What exactly went on there?
Quote from: Grinning_Colossus on December 18, 2015, 04:02:48 PM
So... did the First Order use Death Star 3 to destroy the Republic? What exactly went on there?
The Republic planets seemed to be all destroyed. So who knows what's left in Episode VIII
Also, didn't they have an argument whether the storm troopers were good enough or whether it'd have been better with robots? Will we see a robot army in the next movie?
Quote from: Syt on December 17, 2015, 06:09:27 AM
Looked it up - the destroyed system was "Hosnian Prime" which is a new entry in the franchise. I guess after Star Trek Abrams thought he couldn't destroy another iconic planet. :D
So it's a throw-away. What a coward. I really liked the movie overall, though. Roughly on par with (maybe slightly better than) Jedi, but not quite as good as IV or V.
I do hope this is the last time the plot centers around the bad guys building a death star/planet/whatever and then the Rebels blowing it up. The bad guys need to find a more distributed system of destruction rather than confining themselves to a giant target.
Quote from: Syt on December 17, 2015, 03:12:25 PM
Btw, is it me, or do all the people in the First Order (except Snoke) look very young? The Resistance has people of all ages, but First Order officers all seem to be in their 20s or early 30s.
I kind of like the First Order being a sort of youth movement. Bunch of pissed off disillusioned kids not buying into their parents' victorious rebels/Republic scene.
Also Snoke (one of the few weak points of the film IMO) reminded me a lot of the Grendel from the animated 2007 version of Beowulf. And I have a feeling that as huge as he appears in a hologram he'll be revealed in Episode 8 as being really tiny.
Just back.
Lots of stuff I liked, lots of stuff I didn't like. Overall I enjoyed it, and - more importantly - I'm pretty invested in the new characters and I really look forward to know where they will take them in the next two films.
Too many coincidences, chanceful encounters, etc... to my liking. Way too many. Some stuff is very confusing (what system is being attacked? What are the consequences of that planet being blown up? What's the exact political situation?). But there's a fun chemistry between the main characters, things are kept moving, and well - it's entertaining.
Quote from: Syt on December 17, 2015, 03:12:25 PM
Btw, is it me, or do all the people in the First Order (except Snoke) look very young? The Resistance has people of all ages, but First Order officers all seem to be in their 20s or early 30s.
I liked the whole SS Youth look they had going for the First Order. Made it fresher than just a retread of the Empire (the film already has a bit too many retreads)
On the First Order, I read that the writers were thinking, "What if the Nazis that went to South America after the war founded a new regime?" The Order seems more ideologically driven than the "old" Empire.
More info on the destroyed system:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hosnian_Prime
QuoteHosnian Prime was a planet located in the Core Worlds of the galaxy. It was the capital of the New Republic by the time of the conflict between the Resistance, an off-shoot of the Republic, and the Imperial successor force known as the First Order. The planet was chosen as the Republic's capital and the headquarters of the Galactic Senate through an election; the Senate's location rotated every so often based on what planet was elected to serve as its headquarters at a given time.[1]
The First Order, believing the Republic to be an illegitimate government incapable of maintaining order in the galaxy, targeted Republic planets with a superweapon known as Starkiller Base in an effort to destroy them. The Starkiller turned its sights towards Hosnian Prime and incinerated it with plasma sucked from the Starkiller sun.[2]
Behind the scenes
Hosnian Prime briefly appeared in the 2015 film Star Wars: Episode VII The Force Awakens.[2] Information about the planet and its status within the New Republic was elaborated upon in the reference book Star Wars: The Force Awakens: The Visual Dictionary.
That's information that would have been great to have in the movie, though. They talk about destroying the senate on its homeworld, but for all the amazing visuals it had little impact on me, and not even the Resistance acknowledges the enormity of the act.
Quote from: Syt on December 19, 2015, 01:33:55 AM
"What if the Nazis that went to South America after the war founded a new regime?"
MIND YER OWN BIDNESS
Quote from: Syt on December 19, 2015, 01:33:55 AM
The Order seems more ideologically driven than the "old" Empire.
Yeah. The Riefenstahlish cinematography was unmistakable. A little forced (particularly with the plain red banners) but still pretty cool.
Another homage I caught was the brief sunset scene where you had two or three tie-fighters flying towards the camera. Straight outta Apocalypse Now yall.
Quote from: celedhring on December 18, 2015, 07:58:10 PM
Just back.
Lots of stuff I liked, lots of stuff I didn't like. Overall I enjoyed it, and - more importantly - I'm pretty invested in the new characters and I really look forward to know where they will take them in the next two films.
I'm kind of neutral on them. I hope each of them are further developed in Episode 8 but I don't feel like I know enough about any of them.
QuoteToo many coincidences, chanceful encounters, etc... to my liking. Way too many.
Been that way from the beginning IMO.
QuoteBut there's a fun chemistry between the main characters, things are kept moving, and well - it's entertaining.
Definitely entertaining.
Probably the coolest thing my mom ever did for me was to show up out of the blue the day Return of the Jedi premiered to pick up my best friend and me from school to go catch the first viewing at the local theater. We were probably the first kids of our age in the entire county to see that movie.
So I figured I ought to pay it forward and get my kid out of school early today to take him to see Episode 7. I know it premiered last night but I doubt many kids in his school made the cut and saw it. I kept him in the dark until we pulled right up into the cinema parking lot (official excuse was that he had an "appointment"). He figured out what was going on and literally jumped out of the car. I told him to chill out and that he was way too excited to see 'Creed'. That didn't fool him so we went inside, got our tickets, popcorn and soda and found our seats. Ended up being one of those father-son events you never forget.
Very nice of you Spicy.
Very sweet Speish.
Quote from: Syt on December 17, 2015, 03:12:25 PM
Btw, is it me, or do all the people in the First Order (except Snoke) look very young? The Resistance has people of all ages, but First Order officers all seem to be in their 20s or early 30s.
It's mentioned that the members of the First Order were all abducted from their families at a very young age and trained/indoctrinated from then on. I would imagine it was either an Imperial project or the idea of the new head of the First Order in the immediate aftermath of the Emperor's death to build a solid core to replace the failing Empire. This would account for the youth and similarity in age with the vast majority of the members.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on December 19, 2015, 03:05:06 AM
It's mentioned that the members of the First Order were all abducted from their families at a very young age and trained/indoctrinated from then on. I would imagine it was either an Imperial project or the idea of the new head of the First Order in the immediate aftermath of the Emperor's death to build a solid core to replace the failing Empire. This would account for the youth and similarity in age with the vast majority of the members.
But who held the power in the Empire after the Emperor died?
Quote from: Syt on December 19, 2015, 01:33:55 AM
That's information that would have been great to have in the movie, though. They talk about destroying the senate on its homeworld, but for all the amazing visuals it had little impact on me, and not even the Resistance acknowledges the enormity of the act.
Yeah, that wasn't well handled at all.
The election thing seems a cheap way to avoid destroying a famous planet (Coruscant).
It also bothered me a lot how easy it was to get inside in Starkiller Base and move around it, capture captain Phasma et al. I know bad dude ineptitude has been one of the most joked over platitudes of the saga, but at least in A New Hope they bothered to disguise themselves as stormtroopers.
So I don't come across as a hater I'll say that I liked Rey and Kylo Ren a lot. Ren is the kind of insecure and powerful young man that Anakin Skywalker should have been in the prequels. Since both characters look like they will be the core of the new saga, I'm already sold on that aspect.
Ren is probably the only thing that sets this movie apart from being a mere retread of A New Hope, too.
Quote from: celedhring on December 18, 2015, 07:58:10 PM
Too many coincidences, chanceful encounters, etc... to my liking. Way too many. Some stuff is very confusing (what system is being attacked? What are the consequences of that planet being blown up? What's the exact political situation?). But there's a fun chemistry between the main characters, things are kept moving, and well - it's entertaining.
They overcorrected from the Prequels. I wanted to know what planets those were. I was guessing it was Coruscant, but I'm not sure.
So Snoke is Darth Plageus, right?
Quote from: Syt on December 18, 2015, 11:18:41 AM
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 18, 2015, 10:56:32 AMSome great jokes/one liners.
I think my favorite was the scene where Rey "learns" force persuasion with an unsuspecting Stormtrooper (".... aaand I'll drop my blaster"), plus the aftermath with Kylo flipping his shit and the other two Stormtroopers going, "Yeah, let's be somewhere else right now." :lol:
A lot of the humor and back-and-forth felt very Indiana Jones-y (Kasdan wrote those too), and it was one of my favorite parts of the film. I wouldn't turn my nose up to an Indiana Jones reboot if they kept Kasdan around.
More thoughts, they should give the Lucas treatment to John Williams. Absolutely nothing remarkable in that soundtrack, which is a crime when it's a Star Wars film. He's 83 anyway, they should have gone for somebody younger.
Quote from: celedhring on December 19, 2015, 09:48:30 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 18, 2015, 11:18:41 AM
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 18, 2015, 10:56:32 AMSome great jokes/one liners.
I think my favorite was the scene where Rey "learns" force persuasion with an unsuspecting Stormtrooper (".... aaand I'll drop my blaster"), plus the aftermath with Kylo flipping his shit and the other two Stormtroopers going, "Yeah, let's be somewhere else right now." :lol:
A lot of the humor and back-and-forth felt very Indiana Jones-y (Kasdan wrote those too), and it was one of my favorite parts of the film. I wouldn't turn my nose up to an Indiana Jones reboot if they kept Kasdan around.
More thoughts, they should give the Lucas treatment to John Williams. Absolutely nothing remarkable in that soundtrack, which is a crime when it's a Star Wars film. He's 83 anyway, they should have gone for somebody younger.
Apparently that had to do with Abrams' directing style. Lucas would give Williams the completed film to score and then not edit it (because Lucas didn't really edit...), whereas Abrams made big cuts to TFA after Williams had written the score, so he had to subsequently re-score it.
I thought the soundtrack was great. Especially Rey's leitmotif, very light and catchy.
In retrospect, the degree to which TFA rehashes ANH, sometimes down to re-enacting scenes, annoys me. Guess Abrams wanted to play it safe.
Quote from: Hamilcar on December 19, 2015, 11:26:37 AM
In retrospect, the degree to which TFA rehashes ANH, sometimes down to re-enacting scenes, annoys me. Guess Abrams wanted to play it safe.
But that is what we the old fans needed (even if we did not consciously want it), it is a new version of the old movies we enjoyed. I see this movie as the transition from the old to the new.
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 19, 2015, 11:50:27 AM
Quote from: Hamilcar on December 19, 2015, 11:26:37 AM
In retrospect, the degree to which TFA rehashes ANH, sometimes down to re-enacting scenes, annoys me. Guess Abrams wanted to play it safe.
But that is what we the old fans needed (even if we did not consciously want it), it is a new version of the old movies we enjoyed. I see this movie as the transition from the old to the new.
No doubt, but there's a balance. I think TFA was a bit too conservative in that respect.
Just got back, some intial thoughts:
I love that the main villain is a spoiled teenager. How awesome is that? I love that they didn't kill him - I get the feeling that he will come back much stronger now that he has successfully resolved the conflict with his father (which explains to some extant how Rey was able to beat him, even without training).
I like a lot of the homage to the old series, but they probably over did it - when the X-Wings dropped into the trench to destroy the Death St...errr the Starkiller or whatever, I kind of groaned.
Rey is fantastic.
Snoke? Really? That is the best name you could come up with?
Ford played Solo PERFECTLY.
I want more backstory! What happened to the Republic? The old Empire? Give me more!
Overall it was outstanding. The special effects were incredible. Going to get IMAX 3D tickets and go see it again.
Second viewing with friends today. Afternoon screening, so many kids in the audience.
Still great fun on second viewing, IMHO. The political stuff was a bit clearer the second time through - in the opening crawl it says that the First Order has risen, and that the Resistance, aided by the Republic, fight the regime. So I take it that the First Order went, built their own little mini Empire under Snoke (who is a Dark Side user of some sort) until they felt strong enough to challenge the Republic (i.e. Starkiller Base). Meanwhile, the Resistance act as Republic sponsored insurgents, I guess? But understanding that kind of basic geography shouldn't require multiple viewings plus secondary sources. :P
I'm guessing Starkiller Base was purpose built to deliver two blows (one against the Republic Capital, one against a target of opportunity), and then its power source would be depleted.
I'm thinking that Rey is related to Luke, but it doesn't explain why she would be abandoned on Jakku as a little kid. If this was after Ben's turn to the dark side, and Luke gave up then, it wouldn't explain why she would be dumped in that shit hole. Also, she and Kylo Ren seem to be of similar age. So she would have been older when he turned.
I agree that most of the soundtrack isn't spectacular; though I do love Rey's theme, and the March of the Resistance is fairly good.
Yeah, Kylo Ren is definitely the tone that would have been required for Skywalker, at latest in Ep. III. I like how is uncertainty is underscored by the erratic, sputtering blade of his jank light saber, while Anakin's old Jedi blade is calm. Now that he's "passed the test" and has lost his old weapon in the duel, I bet we will see him with a proper saber next time, and himself more assertive and more in control of himself.
I'm not too fuzzed about all the lucky coincidences at the start of the movie. A New Hope was also full of them. About the final battle being a rehash of the Death Star battle - yeah, but they go out of their way to show that the First Order has learned from past mistakes - the weak spot is heavily shielded and requires a lot of firepower to be dismantled. As soon as they realize it's a fighter attack they launch all squadrons, and support with ground fire etc. The actual weak point was Phasma refusing to die for the cause. I wonder how that will work out for her when she's asked about that by Hux or Snoke.
The First Order is much more equal opportunity than the old Empire - there was a female stormtrooper reporting in one scene.
And there's lots of various British accents in the galaxy, even in La Resistance, not to mention the Sco'ish pirate.
Big applause after the screening (strange for a Saturday afternoon screening). Friends all loved it, and it was fun to hear the kids in the audience chatter excitedly about the movie during the end titles. Unsurprisingly many girls seem to have latched onto Rey as their favorite character, but boys seem to love her, too (as a character ... not that way ... perverts!).
A friend said something quite fitting, I thought: where R2 seems like the sweet loyal dog BB-8 is the super cute little kitten.
Thankfully, Ep. VIII is scheduled for release "only" 18 months from now, in May 2017. :P
It'll be written/directed by Rian Johnson, who wrote/directed Looper and directed three episodes of Breaking Bad (Fly, Fifty-One and Ozymandias i.e. the episode that's rated 9.9/10 on IMDB with 70k votes).
Came from a second viewing today, I enjoyed it more this time around, knowing in advance the film's flaws. This audience was much better too, cheering when famous characters (or ships) make their first appearance, and with a very audible "gasp" when Solo died.
It still pisses me off that Han Solo ends his days with his body falling in some anonymous pit, his body consumed by an explosion later on. Would have loved a fitting farewell for him, but being pissed off at how a character dies is not that bad a thing I guess.
I agree with Berkut, Kylo Ren is probably one of my favorite parts of the movie.
Anyway bring on the next one.
I enjoyed it. Some of the references were overdone and I would have preferred a fresher storyline. But I definitely liked the characters. Han was perfect, Rey and Kylo Ren were very promising. Poe and Finn were okay, didn't like Snoke. I didn't get the political situation either. Why not start with an indecisive Republic as in Ep. I and have a small dedicated group actively fight? Strange duality of resistance and Republic.
Looking forward to see Luke as Jedi Master.
Like some said, as the film went along, it seemed to become obvious Han was going to die (and would not surprise if Ford said "yeah I'll play Han again, but only if he dies").
I suppose in the next film, we'll see if Mark Hamil can act. :P
Also, what the heck was the point of the female Chrome Trooper? Seemed like they made some mini-hype about it, and then just basically tossed her away. Seemed completely pointless, and just using some regular trooper wouldn't have changed anything.
If Rey is indeed Rey Skywalker the revelation "No, I am your father" would be the least surprising thing in the whole movie series. But she is just extremely similar to Luke in so many aspects. Let's see.
Quote from: Zanza on December 19, 2015, 10:02:35 PM
If Rey is indeed Rey Skywalker the revelation "No, I am your father" would be the least surprising thing in the whole movie series. But she is just extremely similar to Luke in so many aspects. Let's see.
I had suspicions before seeing it that they'd take the idea that Kylo was Han/Leia's son, and Rey would be their daughter...but as it became quickly apparent that wouldn't work.
So the "Luke's daughter" makes more sense. I am guessing that maybe Luke had a babe among the new Jedi he was teaching, and during the Knights of Ren breakup, Rey's mom/Rey got split-up/abandoned/left behind. And Luke would have had to thought Rey was dead as well, or else he looks like a major ass for not searching for her earlier.
I finally understand the politics.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/the-first-order
QuoteThe First Order
The New Republic's rise reduced the once-mighty Empire to a rump state hemmed in by strict disarmament treaties and punishing reparations. But in the galaxy's Unknown Regions, former Imperial officers, nobles and technologists plotted a return to power, building fleets and armies in secret. This movement became the First Order, ruled by Supreme Leader Snoke, and is now ready to reclaim the Imperial legacy.
http://www.starwars.com/databank/the-resistance
QuoteThe Resistance
A small, secretive private military force, the Resistance was founded by rebel hero Leia Organa to monitor the actions of the First Order. Most New Republic power brokers tolerate the Resistance while regarding Organa and her fighters as dead-enders with an unfortunate fixation on the past. Organa's cash-strapped movement relies on credits, ships and equipment quietly funneled to it from the few senators who share her concerns.
Again, a little bit of extra exposition in that regard wouldn't have hurt. :P
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense now. Could have been delivered with like 2-3 throwaway lines.
I hope there's more to Rey than "Luke's daughter", although that would still leave us the mystery of who's the mother, which could be interesting.
If I had to bet, I'd say that Rey is not Luke's daughter, because.... she doesn't have a father like Anakin.
Speculation based on Snoke=Plagueis. Anakin was never the chosen one to bring balance, but Plagueis' creature. This led to disaster. Rey was conceived by the Force to actually bring balance by bringing down Plagueis, who has been manipulating events since before Ep 1. She isn't a Skywalker at all, but she's the Chosen One.
Quote from: Hamilcar on December 20, 2015, 04:25:28 AM
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense now. Could have been delivered with like 2-3 throwaway lines.
Yes, just a short scene of Leia talking to her financiers via hologram, begging for money that the sympathizers want to give but can't, and using the scene to show an establishing shot of the capital and the senate would have been fine. 30 seconds or a minute is all it takes to establish that and could help underscore in what a precarious position the Resistance is, plus adding some impact to the destruction of the capital. Instead of just an anonymous crowd it could then add the face(s) we saw in the holo-call.
Quote from: Hamilcar on December 20, 2015, 04:40:56 AM
If I had to bet, I'd say that Rey is not Luke's daughter, because.... she doesn't have a father like Anakin.
Speculation based on Snoke=Plagueis. Anakin was never the chosen one to bring balance, but Plagueis' creature. This led to disaster. Rey was conceived by the Force to actually bring balance by bringing down Plagueis, who has been manipulating events since before Ep 1. She isn't a Skywalker at all, but she's the Chosen One.
George Lucas, leave Hamilcar's body! I exorcise you!
Quote from: Hamilcar on December 20, 2015, 04:40:56 AM
If I had to bet, I'd say that Rey is not Luke's daughter, because.... she doesn't have a father like Anakin.
Speculation based on Snoke=Plagueis. Anakin was never the chosen one to bring balance, but Plagueis' creature. This led to disaster. Rey was conceived by the Force to actually bring balance by bringing down Plagueis, who has been manipulating events since before Ep 1. She isn't a Skywalker at all, but she's the Chosen One.
Doesn't Edna Mode say that she's "seen those eyes before" or some such? That seems to indicate that Rey has parents.
Quote from: Kleves on December 20, 2015, 05:13:59 AM
Doesn't Edna Mode say that she's "seen those eyes before" or some such? That seems to indicate that Rey has parents.
Could be the eyes of someone created by the Force, aka Anakin.
She says that to Finn, not Rey. Unless I'm misremembering.
Speaking of Maz, I hope at some point we get a decent explanation of how Anakin's lightbaser ended up there. It was pretty laughable how they lampshaded it with that "good question, for another day" line.
That's an explanation I can live with for now, though. In myth and fairy tales, mythical weapons or artifacts have a tendency to resurface at opportune moments. I'm ok with, "There's a story here, but it's not important at the moment." Star Wars plots have always hinged on luck or "destiny", so I can suspend my disbelief in that regard to some degree. I don't think TFA is worse than ANH in that regard.
Quote from: Syt on December 20, 2015, 05:54:36 AM
I don't think TFA is worse than ANH in that regard.
Oh, it certainly is. Maybe later I'll make a list of all the implausibilities and plot contrivances TFA has. It's pretty ridiculous. You know, in ANH at least they bothered with disguising as stormtroopers while they roamed around the Death Star. Here, they just don't care and everybody walks around Starkiller base, capturing officers, lowering the shields, without anybody noticing. At one point I just got the feeling the writers just didn't give a damn.
Regarding Anakin's lightsaber, the last time we saw that lightsaber it was falling into a gas giant. Note, I'm happy that they made that weapon reappear - it ties the three generations of Skywalkers together -, I just wish they were less lazy about it.
With the base, they didn't disguise themselves, true, but it seemed to be a station somewhat apart from the main complex, and Han implied they need to hurry to not be discovered ("The longer we take, the less luck we'll have."). Disguising themselves as Stormtroopers would have been too much of a callback, IMHO.
Yes, that's when we last saw the light saber, and the One Ring was last seen falling into a river ... I don't find it implausible that there might be relic hunters finding it, or a gas miner finding it by luck, or maybe even Lando going back to Cloud City at some point and coming across it, or a combination of all the above. Maybe Maz recovered it herself, considering her long history, her being able to sense the Force, and having been a smuggler/pirate. There's plenty explanations that are plausible within the universe. It's a tantalizing mystery, but not one that takes me out of the movie.
Quote from: Syt on December 20, 2015, 06:12:57 AM
With the base, they didn't disguise themselves, true, but it seemed to be a station somewhat apart from the main complex, and Han implied they need to hurry to not be discovered ("The longer we take, the less luck we'll have."). Disguising themselves as Stormtroopers would have been too much of a callback, IMHO.
Yes, that's when we last saw the light saber, and the One Ring was last seen falling into a river ... I don't find it implausible that there might be relic hunters finding it, or a gas miner finding it by luck, or maybe even Lando going back to Cloud City at some point and coming across it, or a combination of all the above. Maybe Maz recovered it herself, considering her long history, her being able to sense the Force, and having been a smuggler/pirate. There's plenty explanations that are plausible within the universe. It's a tantalizing mystery, but not one that takes me out of the movie.
It's the station that controls the shields of the entire planet, it makes no sense that it's not more closely watched. It also makes no sense how a First Order fanatic like Phasma yields so easily. I actually was expecting she would trick them and set off the alarm, or something.
While we are talking of Maz. "Hello, I'm Han solo, smuggler legendary. I think we need a clean ship so you are not detected, and in order to get it I'm taking you to a place full of First Order spies. And you're not staying in the ship, you're coming with me so everybody can see you."
I'm fine with suspending disbelief, but TFA asked me to drink from that well too many times and it ended drying up.
Quote from: celedhring on December 20, 2015, 06:21:55 AMIt's the station that controls the shields of the entire planet, it makes no sense that it's not more closely watched. It also makes no sense how a First Order fanatic like Phasma yields so easily. I actually was expecting she would trick them and set off the alarm, or something.
Was also disappointed by Phasma, agreed. But in ANH, the Empire captures a ship that they have strongly suspect to have a connection to the missing droids they're looking for, Vader senses Kenobi has arrived with the ship, and they aren't sure if the ship is truly empty. So they leave it under guard by two(!) troopers (and a scanning crew), and two officers in their office in a huge ass hangar bay. Not what I would call tight security, either. Again, TFA is not worse than ANH. Similarly with both cantina scenes. Kenobi announces to the whole patronage that he has a frickin' lightsaber when he could probably have defused the situation otherwise (use force push to knock them out or whatever). And instead of getting out of there, he stays to negotiate passage to Alderaan. Not exactly his brightest moment.
I liked Rey, but it is a bit annoying that she is good at everything she does, especially stuff like using the force or sword fighting. It would have been better if they had shown her to use these skills unconsciously before or so.
I found it interesting that she received many offers during the movie that she refused - extra rations in exchange for the droid, joining Solo's crew, running away with Finn, being trained by Kylo Ren.
She also at first rejects the light saber and everything it stands for only to finally accept it in the last act of the movie. So in many ways it's about her trying to find her place in the world.
But yeah, she's good at everything, so I expect her to become some sort of super-Jedi, and I'm sure she will also be tempted by the dark side. I was kind of wondering about that in the duel against Kylo Ren, and I wonder if she would have killed him if the planet hadn't fallen apart - or if this would have been another offer she'd refuse.
Quote from: Zanza on December 20, 2015, 07:51:41 AM
I liked Rey, but it is a bit annoying that she is good at everything she does, especially stuff like using the force or sword fighting. It would have been better if they had shown her to use these skills unconsciously before or so.
Yeah, that's one of the things that slightly miffed me. In ANH Luke was naturally good at things, that's a trait of Force sensitives, but he still had to be trained by Obi Wan, and he didn't really use any Force "power" (telekinesis, etc...) until Ep V.
In Rey's case, I'm willing to defer judgement until we know more about who she really is, though.
Quote from: Syt on December 20, 2015, 06:34:47 AM
Quote from: celedhring on December 20, 2015, 06:21:55 AMIt's the station that controls the shields of the entire planet, it makes no sense that it's not more closely watched. It also makes no sense how a First Order fanatic like Phasma yields so easily. I actually was expecting she would trick them and set off the alarm, or something.
Was also disappointed by Phasma, agreed. But in ANH, the Empire captures a ship that they have strongly suspect to have a connection to the missing droids they're looking for, Vader senses Kenobi has arrived with the ship, and they aren't sure if the ship is truly empty. So they leave it under guard by two(!) troopers (and a scanning crew), and two officers in their office in a huge ass hangar bay. Not what I would call tight security, either. Again, TFA is not worse than ANH.
Actually no. In ANH they actually bother to give you a semi-plausible explanation ("One of the escape pods is missing, they must have fled"), that points at your heroes being smart and resourceful, and not just trusting that their enemies will be a bunch of idiots.
The fact that the plot is so derivative from ANH let's you compare a bunch of plot points that are very similar in both movies, but they are much better done in ANH. A few:
- The Death Star / Starkiller Base plans. Somebody should have told all those bothans that just sending a scout ship to the Death Star was enough to obtain detailed schematics.
- The aforementioned "sneaking into the enemy base" sequence, where in ANH they are disguised as troopers. Plus in ANH their ruse ends up failing (detention block scene), and they are discovered and have to fight their way out, etc... It's all fleshed out much better than in TFA.
- The "stuff hidden inside a droid" McGuffin. So, where does this map come from? I guess Luke left it in case he needed to be found? Why play puzzles though? Why R2-D2 suddenly decides to wake up and provide the other half? Who's this dude that has a part of it at the beginning of the flick? How come the Empire of all things had half of the map in his archives? It's all so confusing and contrived. In ANH is so much simpler and well, better. "We stole those plans of a secret weapon, we gave them to a Senator so she can use her diplomatic status to deliver them to the rebels, she got caught and hid them inside a droid", and they only need a scene to set all that up.
- The whole political situation. In ANH the opening crawl and further dialogue between Leia and Tarkin sets up the universe clearly. In TFA people have to go and check the official site to figure out what's going on.
Quote from: Syt on December 20, 2015, 08:13:13 AM
and I wonder if she would have killed him if the planet hadn't fallen apart - or if this would have been another offer she'd refuse.
See, that's another contrivance that annoyed me. Instead of having a main character face a big moral decision, let's have an earthquake separate them so we don't have to write that.
It annoys me because I do think they did the big things right (they gave us new characters and a new story that interest me and engage me), but they were so neglectful when fleshing out the plot that I just can't say "wow, that was great".
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
There's no gore, but they do aim better than in the first 6 movies.
5 years is maybe too young as there is more evil in this one than the others. And no ewoks to counter it.
There were kids aged two or three in the showing I went to, presumably so they can say later "I was there". It's too long for them to concentrate or go without a toilet break.
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
There's no gore, but they do aim better than in the first 6 movies.
Actually, me and a friend of mine were wondering if the scene where Finn gets blood smeared on his helmet was the most blood that's ever been shown in a Star Wars film. Is that true?
Quote from: celedhring on December 20, 2015, 08:59:59 AM
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
There's no gore, but they do aim better than in the first 6 movies.
Actually, me and a friend of mine were wondering if the scene where Finn gets blood smeared on his helmet was the most blood that's ever been shown in a Star Wars film. Is that true?
It could very well be. The slaughter of the villagers also seemed a step further than what the franchise has done before.
I wanted to see General Leia get all angry and vengeful when Had died. Kylo Ren was like some Harry Potter sixth form bully. And yes Phasma was desperately underused. Crap name anyhow.
Quote from: celedhring on December 20, 2015, 08:59:59 AM
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
There's no gore, but they do aim better than in the first 6 movies.
Actually, me and a friend of mine were wondering if the scene where Finn gets blood smeared on his helmet was the most blood that's ever been shown in a Star Wars film. Is that true?
I think the goriest scene was probably the cut off arm in the cantina in Ep. IV:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffuriousfanboys.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F09%2Fstar-wars-urban-legends-04.jpg&hash=70b706c9da5010b5e4b7dbf6788f51504ad1987c)
The Wampa in ESB-SE also had blood added, but I think it was more cartoonish. Later movies seem to get around this by having the wounds cauterized.
In TFA it obviously serves to make sure Finn stands out, and to have him touched by blood the first time (they later say it's his first combat assignment; and he worked sanitation before) and be horrified by it.
Btw - I agree with most faults you point out about the movie's script, but at the moment I just don't mind them enough. That might change when the "high" of the movie wears off for me. :)
Quote from: Syt on December 20, 2015, 09:09:59 AM
Quote from: celedhring on December 20, 2015, 08:59:59 AM
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 10:40:48 AM
There's no gore, but they do aim better than in the first 6 movies.
Actually, me and a friend of mine were wondering if the scene where Finn gets blood smeared on his helmet was the most blood that's ever been shown in a Star Wars film. Is that true?
I think the goriest scene was probably the cut off arm in the cantina in Ep. IV:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffuriousfanboys.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F09%2Fstar-wars-urban-legends-04.jpg&hash=70b706c9da5010b5e4b7dbf6788f51504ad1987c)
Ah yeah, the severed arm. That only stays on picture for a split second though. And I'll agree that Obi-Wan's actions in that scene have always bothered me; he would have scored a few Dark Side points in a KOTOR game :D
I liked the attack on the village a lot, by the way. I don't think the Empire ever looked that ruthless (except when Tarkin blew up Alderaan, of course). The First Order looks like a more fanatic version of it.
Quote
Btw - I agree with most faults you point out about the movie's script, but at the moment I just don't mind them enough. That might change when the "high" of the movie wears off for me. :)
That's fine. I was just pointing out why those things got in the way of me really embracing the film, but I'm aware others may not be as bothered.
I'm starting to think that the First Order is coming of as kind of the Third Reich to the Empire's Kaiserreich auf the original trilogy, at least when it comes to the military and the officers - more fanatical, more indoctrinated.
I thought Palatine = Augustus?
Random factoid: in canon, only one other character was ever adressed as "Supreme Leader": Asajj Ventress, but only in that horrible first episode of the Clone War animated series.
It bugs me a bit that Han Solo, one of the coolest characters in film, kinda went out like a chump.
Quote from: Kleves on December 20, 2015, 10:59:47 AM
It bugs me a bit that Han Solo, one of the coolest characters in film, kinda went out like a chump.
Yeah, it bothered me a bit too. At least Luke got to carry out the body of Vader and give him a proper funeral and sendoff. I know a bunch of people that hated the way Han went out.
But I think it's an instance of when it's good to piss off your audience. It helps build up Kylo's character and give him heat.
Incidentally, the mention of the "search for the first Jedi Temple" got my Star Wars geek juices flowing. I hope that we get to learn a bit about ancient Jedi history, and they don't completely jettison the "Tales of the Jedi" mythology.
The purpose of Captain Phasma is very simple. Have a distinctive character in the First Order besides Kylo Ren and General Hux (?). If you want to sell toys, a glittering silver storm trooper is the way to do it.
I guess I am with celedhring. The film is good enough and makes me look forward to more, but it could have been better. They took a lot of shortcuts, omitted some much needed scenes to explain the universe and added some unnecessary stuff, e.g. The scene with the two pirate gangs and Han. They could have spent those five minutes much better. It's not like Han Solo needed an introduction.
I noted the somewhat sudden cuts myself in a few places, though they did not diminish the enjoyment for me. It is obvious that Abrams had to cut quite a lot from the theatrical release, and I'll be waiting for the release of the three-hour extended edition. :)
I might even buy the novelization myself :blush:
A competent boxticker by the director and overall a serviceable reboot of the first Star Wars film and franchise. Finn and Poe were ok characters, the chick was a total Mary Sue. The little droid stole most of the scenes it was in.
Quote from: celedhring on December 20, 2015, 02:13:37 PM
I might even buy the novelization myself :blush:
I've been thinking about it. Alan Dean Foster is a pretty competent author; and I recall I really liked his novelization of ANH which he ghostwrote for Lucas and his novelizationsBlack Hole, Alien, and Aliens.
I'm also thinking about getting Lost Stars: http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Star-Wars-Force-Awakens/dp/1484724984
Yes, it's Young Adult, but the setup (a Rebel and Imperial in love, and spanning the events of the original trilogy and the aftermath) sounds pretty decent, and it's gotten overall good reviews.
Quote from: Syt on December 20, 2015, 05:17:28 PM
Quote from: celedhring on December 20, 2015, 02:13:37 PM
I might even buy the novelization myself :blush:
I've been thinking about it. Alan Dean Foster is a pretty competent author; and I recall I really liked his novelization of ANH which he ghostwrote for Lucas and his novelizationsBlack Hole, Alien, and Aliens.
He's a hack, but a talented one. Never read any of his novelization of movies but I did read his Humanx and a weird novel about rabbit people land on earth with wood paneled space ships. I might have liked that one because it had a little flip cartoon in it.
How many reboots has Abrams done now? Three?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 20, 2015, 06:59:31 PM
How many reboots has Abrams done now? Three?
Just one? MI and Star Wars were just sequels. Same actors, plot continuity and such.
Quote from: Legbiter on December 20, 2015, 04:45:39 PM
Finn and Poe were ok characters, the chick was a total Mary Sue. The little droid stole most of the scenes it was in.
I quite liked Finn and Poe. They're characters I would want to follow through future films (though maybe they could make Poe have a
little more difficulty mowing down TIEs). Han was another character I enjoyed, but...
Agree 100% on Rey though.
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 10:29:05 AM
Also, Rey is pretty much the most bad ass female hero I've ever seen.
Oh pleez.
No 100 lbs sexy female can beat a 200 lbs combat trained male.
Dream on.
Film was great and I will watch it again soon. My only worry now is if they don't make something new with these characters. TFA was a little too on the nose about being a reboot of the the original and if they try to reboot Empire and Jedi then they'll ruin the good start they've made for themselves. Now that they've "saved" Star Wars they need to take it somewhere new.
Rey, Finn, Po, and Kylo Ren are all good and interesting characters that deserve their own stories. Don't retread the entire thing, Disney. Be brave.
Quote from: FunkMonk on December 20, 2015, 10:04:48 PM
Don't retread the entire thing, Disney. Be brave.
:lmfao:
Oh wait you were being genuine :cry:
:cry:
I don't see it as a reboot of ANH, like some of you do.
Sure it has the Death Star/Trench run vibe...but ANH set itself easily as a standalone film (that was probably in case it was a bust)...but also one with a very happy/positive/heroic ending. This one had a very mixed/victorious-but-sad tone at the end. With Han's death, it felt more like a ESB ending than ANH. And, of course, it's counting on a sequel.
I just don't want them to fuck it up. But it's their cash cow now, they can do what they want with it.
Quote from: FunkMonk on December 20, 2015, 10:09:44 PM
I just don't want them to fuck it up. But it's their cash cow now, they can do what they want with it.
Oh neither do I, just the chances of hollywood studio doing something
brave is a refreshing but vain hope my Flip-i-can friend.
Saw it today.
Definitely a good movie, but hard to unpack it from all the baggage that comes along with being a Star Wars movie.
I generally agree with many of the comments, but one I disagree with is the notion that the movie needed more explanation and exposition. That's one of the things Ep 4 did so well - it dropped you right into the middle of the complex universe and didn't explain any of it. It threw terms like jedi, sith, the force, Clone Wars, Galactic Senate at you and never bothered to explain a one. And compare that to the prequels, which did explain the hell out of everything.
I agree the call-outs to earlier movies were a tad over-the-top. Some of the plot did seem to overly rely on amazing co-incidences, but I'm not sure it was any worse that the original.
One pet peeve though - Finn goes back to Jakku and, out of the entire planet, just so happens to land right where Rey is. It irks me because Abrams did the exact same thing in Star Trek (2009). :rolleyes:
I do hope that, having set up these new characters, they can now take them in a slightly more original direction. But I can't wait for Ep 8. :)
Oh, Kylo Ren is a fascinating bad guy. When you think about it, probably more interesting than even Vader was.
Kylo Ren could not exist without Vader. I suppose he's more interesting as a refinement, but I find it hard to classify him without including the Vader influences on my perception of him.
He's an excellent villain, though.
Also, while I enjoyed the movie, I really do wish that someone other than Abrams got to handle it. Maybe it's for the best that he did and that they didn't hand it off to someone untried, but...I am really eager to see what Rian Johnson does in 2017 with Episode VIII. There is no way we'll see a repeat of themes and plot devices a la Episode TFA...right?
Anyway, 8/10 from me.
I will also agree with the Snoke hate. Mainly in that I think he is a weaker "arch villian" than the Emperor was, and that he is mostly unnecessary.
He immediately looked to me like a rejected Voldomort costume concept, the Emperor was a much better developed nemesis. And if not solely for the reason that apparently Kylo Ren needs some kind of "teacher"...I think he could have worked just as well as a Luke-trained half-crazed, wanna be Sith lord with some ingrown inner conflict.
Depending on what they develop for him later, I thought he was kinda lame.
For the politics plot point...was I confused in that the movie seemed to portray the New Republic as basically existing on only one solar system?
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 21, 2015, 12:26:26 AM
For the politics plot point...was I confused in that the movie seemed to portray the New Republic as basically existing on only one solar system?
The whole political side of the movie was a giant mess. The Resistance/Rebellion/Republic stuff was basically hand-waved and the numbers were bizarre, at least to me. The quotes of something like "we're lost if the Resistance fleet is destroyed" and "we've lost half our fleet!" after a few X-wings were destroyed made me wonder what the hell was going on. Is the Resistance comprised of basically a single, large squadron? Why is it so tiny, and how could it possibly go up against the seeming legions of First Order TIEs and ships and hope to win?
Quote from: Habbaku on December 21, 2015, 12:34:09 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 21, 2015, 12:26:26 AM
For the politics plot point...was I confused in that the movie seemed to portray the New Republic as basically existing on only one solar system?
The whole political side of the movie was a giant mess. The Resistance/Rebellion/Republic stuff was basically hand-waved and the numbers were bizarre, at least to me. The quotes of something like "we're lost if the Resistance fleet is destroyed" and "we've lost half our fleet!" after a few X-wings were destroyed made me wonder what the hell was going on. Is the Resistance comprised of basically a single, large squadron? Why is it so tiny, and how could it possibly go up against the seeming legions of First Order TIEs and ships and hope to win?
Yeah, basically (according to web sources), the Empire got a Versailles treaty, and the Republic said, "Good enough," and went about its business. In the Unknown Regions, the First Order secretly rebuilt. Meanwhile, some veterans decided that they need to keep tabs on the remaining Imps and the First Order. They're only covertly supported by some sympathizers the Republic (it seems most see them as relics of the war who are a threat to peace?).
Which begs the question how the landscape changes with the Republic capital destroyed. Can the Republic still mount an organized defense? Or are they shattered and easily taken over by the First Order? Will there be open war, or will they surrender? Will the leaders of the Resistance (Leia, Ackbar) lead the war effort? I guess we will find out in May 2017.
In the end you could argue that the First Order largely reached its objective. They built Starkiller base - its first shot took out their primary target (and General Hux amusingly looked like he was creaming his pants when the weapon fired), and they only had enough sun left for a second shot, so this weapon was built for a very specific one time use in mind (which is IMHO why Snoke doesn't seem too fazed when it's destroyed).
Luke and Rey searching for the First Temple (vs First Order?) during their training would make for a decent story, accompanied by the military efforts of the Republicsistance against First Order run by Finn, Poe, Chewie etc. I expect that we'll get a story about Luke having to overcome his fear of failing again.
Quote from: Ender on December 20, 2015, 09:38:21 PM
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 10:29:05 AM
Also, Rey is pretty much the most bad ass female hero I've ever seen.
Oh pleez.
No 100 lbs sexy female can beat a 200 lbs combat trained male.
Dream on.
I don't see the relevance of this to a Star Wars movie.
Best guide to the cameos I've seen, though I'm sure there were plenty of other well-known actors in the background. Including most of the GoT cast.
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/photos/2015/12/star-wars-force-awakens-cameos-daniel-craig-ewan-mcgregor-kevin-smith (http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/photos/2015/12/star-wars-force-awakens-cameos-daniel-craig-ewan-mcgregor-kevin-smith)
The First order/Nazi analogy was extraordinarily heavy handed, what with the rally and all; far worse that any Empire shenanigans.
And if you're on a planet whose sun's energy has been entirely used up, it being a bit dark and cold would be the least of your worries.
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 20, 2015, 10:09:06 PMI don't see it as a reboot of ANH, like some of you do.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXR5kV9Z.jpg&hash=ef310990de240fa275410d40942964727e85b468)
It is what it is. ;)
Still not a reboot. :)
Rey doesn't meet Max von Sydow, and it's not confirmed (yet) that Kylo Ren and Rey and cousins.
Max von Sydow as Lor San Tekka smacks of lazy character replacement code.
Quote from: Ender on December 20, 2015, 09:38:21 PM
Quote from: Liep on December 16, 2015, 10:29:05 AM
Also, Rey is pretty much the most bad ass female hero I've ever seen.
Oh pleez.
No 100 lbs sexy female can beat a 200 lbs combat trained male.
Dream on.
My own headcanon is that lightsaber fights involve channeling tons of force energy, so muscular strength takes a back seat to force strength. That would explain Yoda, too.
Plus Kylo Ren seemed like kind of a bitch anyway.
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 10:03:49 AM
Plus Kylo Ren seemed like kind of a bitch anyway.
He's a hormonal teen bully with emotional and morality problems straight out of Harry Potter.
Star Wars needs a "super villain" who just looks like a completely normal guy.
Snoke, in addition to having a stupid name, looks like Gollum or something. Why would anyone follow him?
Kylo Ren feels like what Anakin should have been.
Kylo Ren being a tantruming, slightly ineffectual emo bish was great but it'd have been better if he'd been a bit more badass. Like if he had fought them both at the same time in the end fight and just beaten the shit out of them, playing with them, just "come on, kill me", throwing them their weapons back before countering all their attacks, daring them to put him down for him killing his dad. And then Mary Sue finally using the force pull to land a blow on him.
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 10:10:33 AM
Snoke, in addition to having a stupid name, looks like Gollum or something. Why would anyone follow him?
And Yoda looks like a muppet. Some people feel like following him, nonetheless.
Quote from: Legbiter on December 21, 2015, 10:25:19 AM
Kylo Ren being a tantruming, slightly ineffectual emo bish was great but it'd have been better if he'd been a bit more badass. Like if he had fought them both at the same time in the end fight and just beaten the shit out of them, playing with them, just "come on, kill me", throwing them their weapons back before countering all their attacks, daring them to put him down for him killing his dad. And then Mary Sue finally using the force pull to land a blow on him.
I thought it was obvious that he was not meant to be a big badass yet. That's why he had a somewhat hard time fighting (admittedly while wounded) and his lightsaber is made from junk. Snoke even says at the end that "it's time to finish his training". I expect he'll develop into more of a badass in later movies.
The whole "freeze a blaster shot mid-air" bit was pretty badass.
That was very cool, and made me jump a bit in my seat when it's finally released.
Also, I give the movie credit that they for the scenes where Kylo freezes or interrogates people. He's basically waving his hand and the other person freezes in place like in a kid's game; and in interrogation it's a lot of waving hand and looking intense. I think it would have been very easy to make these scenes silly and unintentionally funny. But with a combination of subtle nuances in facial expressions, music, and mise en scene they actually make those sequences credible and chilling.
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 10:10:33 AM
Star Wars needs a "super villain" who just looks like a completely normal guy.
Snoke, in addition to having a stupid name, looks like Gollum or something. Why would anyone follow him?
Well, there is that General Hux guy who seems like a fairly normal and competent dude. Excepting of course for the fact he seems like a fanatical Nazi :D
Quote from: Solmyr on December 21, 2015, 10:39:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 10:10:33 AM
Snoke, in addition to having a stupid name, looks like Gollum or something. Why would anyone follow him?
And Yoda looks like a muppet. Some people feel like following him, nonetheless.
Yoda was not the emperor, or supreme leader, or really any position that required massed followers to believe that he was their "leader". In fact, I always assumed that the reason he was really only a leader for Jedi was very much that his stature and weirdness would make it not likely that he could be a popular leader.
He was not particularly charismatic to the masses.
Charisma is important when it comes to populist leaders.
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 11:25:32 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on December 21, 2015, 10:39:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 10:10:33 AM
Snoke, in addition to having a stupid name, looks like Gollum or something. Why would anyone follow him?
And Yoda looks like a muppet. Some people feel like following him, nonetheless.
Yoda was not the emperor, or supreme leader, or really any position that required massed followers to believe that he was their "leader". In fact, I always assumed that the reason he was really only a leader for Jedi was very much that his stature and weirdness would make it not likely that he could be a popular leader.
He was not particularly charismatic to the masses.
Charisma is important when it comes to populist leaders.
Yet in the prequels he leads the Republic Army :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:
How I hate those films.
Quote from: celedhring on December 21, 2015, 11:28:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 11:25:32 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on December 21, 2015, 10:39:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 10:10:33 AM
Snoke, in addition to having a stupid name, looks like Gollum or something. Why would anyone follow him?
And Yoda looks like a muppet. Some people feel like following him, nonetheless.
Yoda was not the emperor, or supreme leader, or really any position that required massed followers to believe that he was their "leader". In fact, I always assumed that the reason he was really only a leader for Jedi was very much that his stature and weirdness would make it not likely that he could be a popular leader.
He was not particularly charismatic to the masses.
Charisma is important when it comes to populist leaders.
Yet in the prequels he leads the Republic Army :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:
How I hate those films.
Again, not the same thing at all. You can be assigned to lead an army without being particularly charismatic, and if it is a professional army, they will likely follow just fine.
But the idea that the "Supreme Leader" of a Nazi-like fascist political organization is this weird ass fucked up little/big troll thing is just silly.
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 11:25:32 AM
Charisma is important when it comes to populist leaders.
How do you know Snoke is a populist leader, though? There is nothing in the film that makes such an assumption. The only time we see the First Order staging a mass march/parade event, General Hux is the guy who speaks to the troops, and he is pretty charistmatic. Snoke does not interact with anyone in the Order except Hux and Kylo (and presumably the other Knights of Ren, off-screen), and seems to be more of a gray eminence/man behind the man type of leader.
Leia and Han seem to know who Snoke is just fine, so he isn't a "secret leader" behind the First Order.
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 11:41:17 AM
Quote from: celedhring on December 21, 2015, 11:28:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 11:25:32 AM
Quote from: Solmyr on December 21, 2015, 10:39:17 AM
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 10:10:33 AM
Snoke, in addition to having a stupid name, looks like Gollum or something. Why would anyone follow him?
And Yoda looks like a muppet. Some people feel like following him, nonetheless.
Yoda was not the emperor, or supreme leader, or really any position that required massed followers to believe that he was their "leader". In fact, I always assumed that the reason he was really only a leader for Jedi was very much that his stature and weirdness would make it not likely that he could be a popular leader.
He was not particularly charismatic to the masses.
Charisma is important when it comes to populist leaders.
Yet in the prequels he leads the Republic Army :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding: :bleeding:
How I hate those films.
Again, not the same thing at all. You can be assigned to lead an army without being particularly charismatic, and if it is a professional army, they will likely follow just fine.
But the idea that the "Supreme Leader" of a Nazi-like fascist political organization is this weird ass fucked up little/big troll thing is just silly.
He still felt utterly out of place commanding troops in the field.
Snoke was a weak character, though, I agree with that. It's also strange that an obviously racist organization (there's not a single alien in the First Order ranks) would follow a non-human.
Yeah, he is referenced, IIRC, as the "Supreme Leader". That suggests that there is some awareness of him amongst the masses.
I think criticism of Snoke's character is warranted but I also like the fact that Abrams just plopped us into the middle of this "new" galaxy without much of an explanation of what the hell is going on and who is what and why. They could have probably had just a few lines explaining this or that but there is a danger in having too much expository dialogue (the prequels). Yeah, there was no equivalent scene to the opening of A New Hope, but that is a pretty tall order to emulate.
It's worth remembering that this is only just part one of a new trilogy and I'm sure Disney has a bazillion star wars spinoffs in the meat grinder.
Quote from: FunkMonk on December 21, 2015, 12:07:28 PM
I think criticism of Snoke's character is warranted but I also like the fact that Abrams just plopped us into the middle of this "new" galaxy without much of an explanation of what the hell is going on and who is what and why. They could have probably had just a few lines explaining this or that but there is a danger in having too much expository dialogue (the prequels). Yeah, there was no equivalent scene to the opening of A New Hope, but that is a pretty tall order to emulate.
It's worth remembering that this is only just part one of a new trilogy and I'm sure Disney has a bazillion star wars spinoffs in the meat grinder.
A major Spanish newspaper carries a very apt headline today: "There's gonna be a Star Wars film every year until we all die".
I think there need to be at least 3 4 consecutive horrible Star Wars movie before I abandon the franchise.
Quote from: Liep on December 21, 2015, 12:36:08 PM
at least 3 4 consecutive horrible Star Wars movie
I see what you did there.
I'm just afraid they will dilute the story. But well, I'll go with it for now. It's going to be the EU, but in film. We need somebody to adapt KOTOR.
Quote from: FunkMonk on December 21, 2015, 12:07:28 PM
I think criticism of Snoke's character is warranted but I also like the fact that Abrams just plopped us into the middle of this "new" galaxy without much of an explanation of what the hell is going on and who is what and why. They could have probably had just a few lines explaining this or that but there is a danger in having too much expository dialogue (the prequels). Yeah, there was no equivalent scene to the opening of A New Hope, but that is a pretty tall order to emulate.
It's worth remembering that this is only just part one of a new trilogy and I'm sure Disney has a bazillion star wars spinoffs in the meat grinder.
There was an article I recall reading about Abrams working with Kasdan - that Kasdan was very much a proponent of "show, don't tell", and less exposition in general. And it definitely tells in the movie - and I think it's a move for the better.
Yeah, Snoke doesn't really make any sense. But we haven't really been given enough information about him. Remember we weren't even told of the Emperor's existence until Empire, and then his involvement was about the same as Snoke's was in this movie. We'll learn more about him soon enough - Episode 8 is due out May 2017.
Quote from: celedhring on December 21, 2015, 12:11:01 PM
Quote from: FunkMonk on December 21, 2015, 12:07:28 PM
I think criticism of Snoke's character is warranted but I also like the fact that Abrams just plopped us into the middle of this "new" galaxy without much of an explanation of what the hell is going on and who is what and why. They could have probably had just a few lines explaining this or that but there is a danger in having too much expository dialogue (the prequels). Yeah, there was no equivalent scene to the opening of A New Hope, but that is a pretty tall order to emulate.
It's worth remembering that this is only just part one of a new trilogy and I'm sure Disney has a bazillion star wars spinoffs in the meat grinder.
A major Spanish newspaper carries a very apt headline today: "There's gonna be a Star Wars film every year until we all die".
I have to say though - while this movie has me pumped for the major Star Wars Episodes, the new Rogue One, or the upcoming Han Solo prequel, sound very much like "wait till it comes out on streaming video" to me...
Apparently Poe Dameron was set to die in the original draft of the script, which would explain the really clumsy way in which he "reappears".
http://www.gq.com/story/star-wars-the-force-awakens-character-death
I saw it yesterday with the kids.
I liked it a lot, they loved it, and loved even all the quoting of episodes 4-6 (from the lightsaber force-gripped from the snow mound, to the manoeuvre the Falcon does when entering the hulk of the Empire's shipwreck, without pointing out the more obvious).
My thoughts:
- how many million (or billion) workers were needed to build the Starkiller? Is it possible that no one in the galaxy had a clue about the construction going on on the planet?
- Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. And she's a badass and I love her character.
- E.T. is running a tavern? And how did s/he/it get Luke's lightsaber?
More to come
L.
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 11:25:32 AM
He was not particularly charismatic to the masses.
Charisma is important when it comes to populist leaders.
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away dressing in burlap and looking like a misshapen prune gave you real star power.
Quote from: Pedrito on December 21, 2015, 01:23:26 PM
- Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. And she's a badass and I love her character.
That would be super lame. How could she be their daughter without them knowing they had a daughter?
My daughter seemed to like the Rey character. I'm generally okay with her but the instant-expert at swordfighting thing bugged me.
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2015, 02:51:32 PM
My daughter seemed to like the Rey character. I'm generally okay with her but the instant-expert at swordfighting thing bugged me.
She wasn't an "instant expert" though. She had already proven herself as a more than capable melee fighter with her staff. Plus Rey had, at that point, had been shot by Chewie, had already had a gruelling fight with Finn (whose instant fighting skills are much more suspect, even though he ultimately lost), and had his confidence shaken by Rey when she resisted him / could out-force-pull the lightsabre.
The lightsabre duel actually kind of impressed me. Again after the prequels, where Lucas just tried to out-do each prior lightsabre battle with more blades, more spinning, and more jumping, this battle actually seemed much more realistic and not just delibertaely hitting the blades against each other.
Quote from: celedhring on December 21, 2015, 01:16:05 PM
Apparently Poe Dameron was set to die in the original draft of the script, which would explain the really clumsy way in which he "reappears".
http://www.gq.com/story/star-wars-the-force-awakens-character-death
Poe is pretty cool and badass and I'm glad they didn't kill him off yet.
They'll probably do it in one of the next movies and I'd be fine with it at that point though. Let us get attached to him before you kill him in spectacular fashion.
I think war is evil and this movie promotes warlike behavior in young kids. The bloodless desensitized battles from this movie are preparing the future generations of soldiers to be sent to fight and die for the wimp of the corporations.
Amen
Quote from: Barrister on December 21, 2015, 02:58:26 PM
Quote from: derspiess on December 21, 2015, 02:51:32 PM
My daughter seemed to like the Rey character. I'm generally okay with her but the instant-expert at swordfighting thing bugged me.
She wasn't an "instant expert" though. She had already proven herself as a more than capable melee fighter with her staff. Plus Rey had, at that point, had been shot by Chewie, had already had a gruelling fight with Finn (whose instant fighting skills are much more suspect, even though he ultimately lost), and had his confidence shaken by Rey when she resisted him / could out-force-pull the lightsabre.
The lightsabre duel actually kind of impressed me. Again after the prequels, where Lucas just tried to out-do each prior lightsabre battle with more blades, more spinning, and more jumping, this battle actually seemed much more realistic and not just delibertaely hitting the blades against each other.
I think the whole duel is set up well. As you say, the movie has already shown Rey is a capable hand-to-hand fighter, Kylo has been wounded twice (by Chewie and by Finn), and she's doing the "trust in the force" boost that Luke does at the end of ANH too.
Wasn't too miffed that Finn can hold up against Ren for a while, too. I presume hand-to-hand combat is part of stormtrooper training. The duel with that melee stromtrooper earlier in the movie actually establishes that.
I liked the duel too. After all the circus act duels in the prequels, it was a welcome change.
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on December 21, 2015, 01:23:26 PM
- Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. And she's a badass and I love her character.
That would be super lame. How could she be their daughter without them knowing they had a daughter?
Leia could have discovered she was pregnant after having sent away Han, and she could have left the baby on Jakku and did not recognize her once they met again.
L.
Something that sorta bugged me is that once they find out Luke's location, they apparently send just Rey (+Chewie), who's kinda still a nobody. I'd have thought Leia, for example, would have gone there to talk to Luke and get his help.
BTW, regarding that last scene. I have a new place I have to visit, whatever that Irish Island is called. I'm sure it will not be exactly the same as shown in the film, but it sure looked awesome.
Quote from: Pedrito on December 21, 2015, 03:40:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on December 21, 2015, 01:23:26 PM
- Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. And she's a badass and I love her character.
That would be super lame. How could she be their daughter without them knowing they had a daughter?
Leia could have discovered she was pregnant after having sent away Han, and she could have left the baby on Jakku and did not recognize her once they met again.
L.
Yes, that would be the very definition of "Lame". She had a daughter and abandoned her? Why would she do that? Why would she never mention her when talking to the daughters father? Why would she never check up on said daughter?
Quote from: celedhring on December 21, 2015, 03:43:54 PM
Something that sorta bugged me is that once they find out Luke's location, they apparently send just Rey (+Chewie), who's kinda still a nobody. I'd have thought Leia, for example, would have gone there to talk to Luke and get his help.
I think this is more of a "we don't have enough information", rather than "gaping plot hole".
Maybe they figured the chance to train a new powerful force-sensitive, one who already fought Ben Solo to at worst a draw (who was seemingly Luke's failed padawan / trainee), would be more of an incentive to get Luke to come back?
I can almost guarantee that although they found Luke, he's not just walking easily back to the galaxy he left behind years ago...
Dammit - I find myself wanting to go and see that movie again. Maybe sometime after Christmas I'll sneak out to a late showing. <_<
Still, it's weird that Leia - his sister - doesn't run to him after he's been gone so long.
Anyway, not a biggie.
Quote from: Barrister on December 21, 2015, 03:48:38 PM
Dammit - I find myself wanting to go and see that movie again. Maybe sometime after Christmas I'll sneak out to a late showing. <_<
Me and Jake saw it Saturday morning, and my sister and her family is visiting this weekend, so we are taking my brother in law to see it this coming Saturday.
However, this is not a ridiculous waste of money seeing the same movie again, since we are going to see it in Imax 3D this time...
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 03:52:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 21, 2015, 03:48:38 PM
Dammit - I find myself wanting to go and see that movie again. Maybe sometime after Christmas I'll sneak out to a late showing. <_<
Me and Jake saw it Saturday morning, and my sister and her family is visiting this weekend, so we are taking my brother in law to see it this coming Saturday.
However, this is not a ridiculous waste of money seeing the same movie again, since we are going to see it in Imax 3D this time...
Good point. Because I took the kid, I made a point of seeing it on regular 2d so we didn't have to fiddle with glasses...
I have seen it twice; once with friends and once with family. I will certainly go again at some point.
Quote from: Barrister on December 21, 2015, 03:54:08 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 03:52:14 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 21, 2015, 03:48:38 PM
Dammit - I find myself wanting to go and see that movie again. Maybe sometime after Christmas I'll sneak out to a late showing. <_<
Me and Jake saw it Saturday morning, and my sister and her family is visiting this weekend, so we are taking my brother in law to see it this coming Saturday.
However, this is not a ridiculous waste of money seeing the same movie again, since we are going to see it in Imax 3D this time...
Good point. Because I took the kid, I made a point of seeing it on regular 2d so we didn't have to fiddle with glasses...
That was a noble sacrifice you made for your family. It would not be at all unreasonable to reward yourself for that selfless act by going and seeing it again in 3D.
I watched it in 3D, not sure if I can do Imax, it usually gives me motion sickness. :(
I have another IMAX screening lined up for Wednesday evening (which will be my 3rd viewing), but I think that'll be sufficient for now. :blush:
Y'all a buncha crackheads.
Just make sure you don't stand in between me and my sweet, sweet crack. :mad:
Quote from: celedhring on December 21, 2015, 03:52:11 PM
Still, it's weird that Leia - his sister - doesn't run to him after he's been gone so long.
Anyway, not a biggie.
Well, they weren't exactly close growing up. :P
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 21, 2015, 04:47:26 PM
Quote from: celedhring on December 21, 2015, 03:52:11 PM
Still, it's weird that Leia - his sister - doesn't run to him after he's been gone so long.
Anyway, not a biggie.
Well, they weren't exactly close growing up. :P
I dunno - they had their moments.
(https://thesoniashow.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/leia-kisses-luke.gif)
Oh by the way one forgotten observation:
Timmy totally didn't recognize Han or Leia (or Luke for that matter). I guess they do look fairly different than 30 years ago. :(
In fact he thought Kylo Ren was Luke, because Ren said that Luke's lightsabre was "his".
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 03:47:07 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on December 21, 2015, 03:40:18 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 21, 2015, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on December 21, 2015, 01:23:26 PM
- Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. And she's a badass and I love her character.
That would be super lame. How could she be their daughter without them knowing they had a daughter?
Leia could have discovered she was pregnant after having sent away Han, and she could have left the baby on Jakku and did not recognize her once they met again.
L.
Yes, that would be the very definition of "Lame". She had a daughter and abandoned her? Why would she do that? Why would she never mention her when talking to the daughters father? Why would she never check up on said daughter?
your questions will be answered in the next two movies, but the reasons could be multiple.
Anyway, who could be her parents? The only family in the galaxy in which the Force is this strong is the descendants of Anakin; Luke is a jedi, and jedis are chaste as monks; eiher he broke the jedi code with a yet unknown woman to father Rey, or Rey's mother is Leia.
The script, then, strongly suggests some kind of link between Han and Rey: they finish each other's sentences, they have the same knack for mechanics, Chewie likes her from the beginning;
IMO, it's very plausible she's Han's daughter.
L.
Quote from: Pedrito on December 21, 2015, 05:05:39 PM
your questions will be answered in the next two movies, but the reasons could be multiple.
Anyway, who could be her parents? The only family in the galaxy in which the Force is this strong is the descendants of Anakin; Luke is a jedi, and jedis are chaste as monks; eiher he broke the jedi code with a yet unknown woman to father Rey, or Rey's mother is Leia.
The script, then, strongly suggests some kind of link between Han and Rey: they finish each other's sentences, they have the same knack for mechanics, Chewie likes her from the beginning;
IMO, it's very plausible she's Han's daughter.
L.
And indeed - I was kind of expecting Rey to be revealed as Rylo Ken's sister as I was watching the movie.
But since all of the people who might have identified her as such (Han, Leia, Rylo Ken) failed to do so, for her to subsequently be identified as Ken's sister would seem like a cheap head fake. Plus while I have no problem with the story of Star Wars generally being that of the Skywalker clan, not every single major character needs to be related.
My favourite bit of internet speculation is that Rey was a one-time youngling student of Luke's, but after whatever happened to drive Ken bad and Luke to go into exile, Rey was abandoned on Jakku. So that gives her a connection, gives her some explanation on how she implicitly understands the force without being trained in it, but not being a blood relation.
Quote
I think the whole duel is set up well. As you say, the movie has already shown Rey is a capable hand-to-hand fighter, Kylo has been wounded twice (by Chewie and by Finn), and she's doing the "trust in the force" boost that Luke does at the end of ANH too.
Kylo wasn't looking to kill, or maim even. Rey was. That's another advantage.
Quote from: celedhring on December 21, 2015, 11:53:58 AM
Leia and Han seem to know who Snoke is just fine, so he isn't a "secret leader" behind the First Order.
Yes, but again this does not mean that he is an especially public figure. After all, as I said, he does not seem to interact with the FO directly except with a couple of people, who then follow his orders. Even if he is known to the rest of the galaxy as some sort of spiritual leader/guide of the FO, it seems obvious that actual day-to-day governing is done by other people.
Also, regarding his appearance, we don't really know a lot about it either. He only appears as a hologram and only his upper body is seen. He could look like anything in the flesh.
Quote from: Solmyr on December 21, 2015, 05:32:35 PM
Also, regarding his appearance, we don't really know a lot about it either. He only appears as a hologram and only his upper body is seen. He could look like anything in the flesh.
I mean - hell - he could always pull a Wizard of Oz and just be putting on an act or costume in what we've seen so far.
But given that he's played by Andy Serkis he's presumably some kind of motion-capture CGI creature.
You know what would really mess with our heads? If they never tell us who Rey's parents are. They would be: :nelson: and we would be: :wacko: :cry: :mad:
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 21, 2015, 05:40:55 PM
You know what would really mess with our heads? If they never tell us who Rey's parents are. They would be: :nelson: and we would be: :wacko: :cry: :mad:
That would run afoul of Raz's favourite dramatic principle - that of Chekhov's gun. There's no way you can so obviously bring up a character's mysterious origins and parentage without making it a major plot point eventually.
Maybe they don't tell us specifically who Rey's parent's are, but you know her origin is going to be important down the road.
Quote from: Berkut on December 19, 2015, 12:47:44 PM
I want more backstory! What happened to the Republic? The old Empire? Give me more!
Seems like the rebellion managed to liberate the core worlds and set up a new republic there, while an Imperial successor state arose in the more outlying regions. The two governments seemed to be officially at peace at this point with the resistance being the successor to the rebels within First Order space.
Learning one's origin has been a staple of the hero's journey that has been used already to great effect in the saga ("I am your father"), so I expect they are going to play that card in a significant way on Rey's regard.
Quote from: Legbiter on December 21, 2015, 07:46:10 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 20, 2015, 10:09:06 PMI don't see it as a reboot of ANH, like some of you do.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXR5kV9Z.jpg&hash=ef310990de240fa275410d40942964727e85b468)
It is what it is. ;)
Rey never met Lars and Han didn't help her to escape from Jakku! :blurgh:
You guys are doing a lot of nitpicking. I thought it was a great movie.
Crazy theory: Luke had a passionate love affair (with a student?), but it fell apart and she left him. Luke is devastated, which causes him to mess up Kylo Ren's training (or just abandoning it, so that his students seek a new master - it would also explain Kylo's Vader obsession, he sees Luke as weak and Vader as strong). Luke's lover was pregnant and for some reason she dumped her kid on Jakku. Now that Rey found Luke he has to overcome his demons all the while reminded of his failure by Rey's existence. The whole Jedi celibacy thing will then be an issue again between Rey and ... Finn, maybe?
Quote from: Razgovory on December 21, 2015, 07:22:36 PM
You guys are doing a lot of nitpicking. I thought it was a great movie.
It's what fans do. -_-
It doesn't mean I didn't like the movie.
Quote from: Barrister on December 21, 2015, 05:10:58 PM
Quote from: Pedrito on December 21, 2015, 05:05:39 PM
your questions will be answered in the next two movies, but the reasons could be multiple.
Anyway, who could be her parents? The only family in the galaxy in which the Force is this strong is the descendants of Anakin; Luke is a jedi, and jedis are chaste as monks; eiher he broke the jedi code with a yet unknown woman to father Rey, or Rey's mother is Leia.
The script, then, strongly suggests some kind of link between Han and Rey: they finish each other's sentences, they have the same knack for mechanics, Chewie likes her from the beginning;
IMO, it's very plausible she's Han's daughter.
L.
And indeed - I was kind of expecting Rey to be revealed as Rylo Ken's sister as I was watching the movie.
But since all of the people who might have identified her as such (Han, Leia, Rylo Ken) failed to do so, for her to subsequently be identified as Ken's sister would seem like a cheap head fake. Plus while I have no problem with the story of Star Wars generally being that of the Skywalker clan, not every single major character needs to be related.
My favourite bit of internet speculation is that Rey was a one-time youngling student of Luke's, but after whatever happened to drive Ken bad and Luke to go into exile, Rey was abandoned on Jakku. So that gives her a connection, gives her some explanation on how she implicitly understands the force without being trained in it, but not being a blood relation.
Heh, they spend half the movie inserting clues that she's Han and Leia's daughter, and the other half inserting clues that she's Luke's daughter.
Why not split the difference? Rey is Luke and Leia's daughter. :P
Theory: that what really caused Luke to flee in shame to the other end of the galaxy was that one drunken night they gave in to incestuous passion ...
(https://thesoniashow.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/leia-kisses-luke.gif)
That explains why Han left, why Leia abandoned the child, why Luke fled, why Leia didn't follow him, and why Leia pretends not to know who Rey is.
Only problem: it's a Disney franchise. Oh well, I expect this theory to figure in the darker corners of fan-fictiondom. :P
My actual theory: that she's somehow related to this new evil leader Snoke. That would be typical for this franchise - the new hero discovers to their horror that they are the offspring of the existing big bad.
Nah, Snoke I suspect is a throw away villain.
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 09:55:27 AM
Nah, Snoke I suspect is a throw away villain.
Too much buildup and mystery for that, I believe.
Jar Jar = Snoke = Rey's father.
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 22, 2015, 10:24:47 AM
Jar Jar = Snoke = Rey's father.
Dammit, great minds think alike (see other thread). :P
Lots of things are silly, but nonetheless, it works admirably well.
My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight. :P The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 11:16:36 AM
My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight. :P The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. ;)
And that's why Kreia was right in Kotor 2 :)
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 11:16:36 AM
My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight. :P The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. ;)
I think you are right - this is something that Lucas created in his mish-mash of mythology that has no real sane consistency.
Even the "bad" guys would be better off without these fucking Sith getting in the way of everything all the time.
The Jedi consistently are shown to fail at almost everything they do in the long run. They go somewhere, kick ass, and then inevitably things are no better off than before they came along, and often vastly worse.
"The Force" in the SW universe is not at all a net positive.
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 11:16:36 AM
My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight. :P The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. ;)
I dunno - the prequels start out with the universe being at peace under the benevolent guidance of the Jedi. It is only once the Jedi are killed off that the evil galactic empire forms.
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 11:16:36 AM
My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight. :P The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. ;)
You want to turn it into the X Men movies?
Quote from: Barrister on December 22, 2015, 11:23:43 AM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 11:16:36 AM
My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight. :P The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. ;)
I dunno - the prequels start out with the universe being at peace under the benevolent guidance of the Jedi. It is only once the Jedi are killed off that the evil galactic empire forms.
I don't know the mythology/history of the Star Wars universe in depth, but isn't it the case that the downfall of the Jedi was inherent in the Force? Too much good is just as 'out of balance' as too much evil, so if the Jedi (or other "good" force users) take over the place, it is inevitable that some will turn to the Dark Side to 'restore balance'.
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 22, 2015, 11:26:02 AM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 11:16:36 AM
My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight. :P The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. ;)
You want to turn it into the X Men movies?
Not particularly. What care I if the Star Wars universe is a terrible place to live in? War and destruction makes more entertaining movies than peaceful progress. :D
I just fond it amusing that no-one in-universe appears to see that "good" Jedi are just inevitable breeding grounds for "bad" force users. Their kids have a definite tendency to 'turn to the dark side', which seems built-in to the whole concept of 'the Force'.
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 11:28:07 AM
Quote from: Barrister on December 22, 2015, 11:23:43 AM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 11:16:36 AM
My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight. :P The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. ;)
I dunno - the prequels start out with the universe being at peace under the benevolent guidance of the Jedi. It is only once the Jedi are killed off that the evil galactic empire forms.
I don't know the mythology/history of the Star Wars universe in depth, but isn't it the case that the downfall of the Jedi was inherent in the Force? Too much good is just as 'out of balance' as too much evil, so if the Jedi (or other "good" force users) take over the place, it is inevitable that some will turn to the Dark Side to 'restore balance'.
IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).
The ensuing war lasted a really, really, really long time. Waxed and waned, lots of people died, but eventually the Jedi won as a result of Sith infighting, and the galaxy saw a thousand years of peace and prosperity under jedi guidance, and it was believed that the Sith had been wiped out.
That sets up the framework for Ep. 1.
So the "Force" itself is truly neutral. It is just a tool that can be used.
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 11:35:47 AM
IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).
The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else. The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith. This is how they see it.
Quote from: viper37 on December 22, 2015, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 11:35:47 AM
IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).
The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else. The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith. This is how they see it.
The Jedi use the Force for good - they might SAY they "serve" the Force, but that is rather nonsensical, since the Force is not really animate. It is an attempt to *define* themselves as the only legit force users, since it implies that the Force is "good", and since they are "good", they are serving it.
If this were actually true, then it would not be the case that dark side users would be so successful, and they seem pretty darn successful. The "Force" could not care less how it is used, since it cannot care at all, except insofar as it is (apparently) a creation of living beings.
The Jedi have a good argument, since they are operating from the standpoint that the Force is a function of life, life is good, hence the force is good. But saying they "serve the Force" is only very narrowly meaningful - you basically have to be a Jedi to begin with for that standpoint to make any sense at all.
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 12:37:52 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 22, 2015, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 11:35:47 AM
IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).
The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else. The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith. This is how they see it.
The Jedi use the Force for good - they might SAY they "serve" the Force, but that is rather nonsensical, since the Force is not really animate. It is an attempt to *define* themselves as the only legit force users, since it implies that the Force is "good", and since they are "good", they are serving it.
If this were actually true, then it would not be the case that dark side users would be so successful, and they seem pretty darn successful. The "Force" could not care less how it is used, since it cannot care at all, except insofar as it is (apparently) a creation of living beings.
The Jedi have a good argument, since they are operating from the standpoint that the Force is a function of life, life is good, hence the force is good. But saying they "serve the Force" is only very narrowly meaningful - you basically have to be a Jedi to begin with for that standpoint to make any sense at all.
What "the Force" is is somewhat malleable within Star Wars, but it does seem to have a more metaphysical/spiritual side, and is not merely a, well, force of nature that can be used to whatever you might want. It seems roughly equivalent to taoism I think, and it's idea of qi.
I think what it is seems pretty well defined - it is a force created by living beings that somehow connects them with one another, and that can be manipulated and used by some.
It is certainly spiritual, and semi-religious. See that "dead" spirits of force users manifesting themselves, for example.
But I've never seen any reason to believe that the Jedi are right, and THEIR user of the force is in service to it, while dark users are perverting it.
One might say even the "good" force users also pervert it by manipulating people's minds for their own benefit. :sleep:
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 22, 2015, 12:59:25 PM
One might say even the "good" force users alos pervert it by manipulating people's minds for their own benefit. :sleep:
A Sith would say that, wouldn't they? :hmm:
Quote from: viper37 on December 22, 2015, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 11:35:47 AM
IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).
The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else. The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith. This is how they see it.
The notion of "balance" between good and evil seems important in this mythology. It would appear that the Force somehow seeks or actively encourages this "balance". That would indicate Sith and Jedi are both somehow patterns set by the very nature of the Force ...
Yeah, seems like the Sith particularly seem to come back no matter how many times they are snuffed out. Jedi also I guess, but it seems like more of a struggle for them.
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 01:47:09 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 22, 2015, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 11:35:47 AM
IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).
The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else. The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith. This is how they see it.
The notion of "balance" between good and evil seems important in this mythology. It would appear that the Force somehow seeks or actively encourages this "balance". That would indicate Sith and Jedi are both somehow patterns set by the very nature of the Force ...
I think the entire "balance" idea is something that Lucas pulled out of his ass without thinking about it.
It is, on its face, absolutely terrible as a moral or ethical concept.
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 01:50:16 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 01:47:09 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 22, 2015, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 11:35:47 AM
IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).
The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else. The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith. This is how they see it.
The notion of "balance" between good and evil seems important in this mythology. It would appear that the Force somehow seeks or actively encourages this "balance". That would indicate Sith and Jedi are both somehow patterns set by the very nature of the Force ...
I think the entire "balance" idea is something that Lucas pulled out of his ass without thinking about it.
It is, on its face, absolutely terrible as a moral or ethical concept.
Not necessarily, "balance" is important in taoism.
But what you don't typically see is balance between good and evil. Although zoroastrianism might come close, I don't know if they have a notion of balance.
Quote from: Barrister on December 22, 2015, 01:58:44 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 01:50:16 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 01:47:09 PM
Quote from: viper37 on December 22, 2015, 12:26:28 PM
Quote from: Berkut on December 22, 2015, 11:35:47 AM
IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).
The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else. The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith. This is how they see it.
The notion of "balance" between good and evil seems important in this mythology. It would appear that the Force somehow seeks or actively encourages this "balance". That would indicate Sith and Jedi are both somehow patterns set by the very nature of the Force ...
I think the entire "balance" idea is something that Lucas pulled out of his ass without thinking about it.
It is, on its face, absolutely terrible as a moral or ethical concept.
Not necessarily, "balance" is important in taoism.
I think it is rather obvious I was not talking about balance outside the scope under discussion.
You might as well respond "Not necessarily, balance is important when riding a bike!"
Quote
But what you don't typically see is balance between good and evil. Although zoroastrianism might come close, I don't know if they have a notion of balance.
The idea that balance between good and evil is desirable, is by definition evil.
They do have a whole Zen thing going on. I wouldn't discount eastern philosophy in the film making.
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 09:53:35 AMHeh, they spend half the movie inserting clues that she's Han and Leia's daughter, and the other half inserting clues that she's Luke's daughter.
Why not split the difference? Rey is Luke and Leia's daughter. :P
Jabba the Hutt is a possibility as well. :hmm:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fslaveleia%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fa1%2FLeia_Sleeps_by_Jabba.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20100523150451&hash=68a782b367c821feb19e51fc2bddca88d5830957)
:D
Quote from: Legbiter on December 21, 2015, 07:46:10 AM
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 20, 2015, 10:09:06 PMI don't see it as a reboot of ANH, like some of you do.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FXR5kV9Z.jpg&hash=ef310990de240fa275410d40942964727e85b468)
It is what it is. ;)
:lol:
That's exactly what I thought when I saw it today. I don't know why they bothered with all the secrecy; if you've seen the original Star Wars, you've seen this one.
Even with its utter lack of originality, it was an enjoyable experience. I'll see the next one at least.
Quote from: Legbiter on December 22, 2015, 04:14:17 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 09:53:35 AMHeh, they spend half the movie inserting clues that she's Han and Leia's daughter, and the other half inserting clues that she's Luke's daughter.
Why not split the difference? Rey is Luke and Leia's daughter. :P
Jabba the Hutt is a possibility as well. :hmm:
Thank you for that visual. :yuk: :x
Quote from: Legbiter on December 22, 2015, 04:14:17 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 09:53:35 AMHeh, they spend half the movie inserting clues that she's Han and Leia's daughter, and the other half inserting clues that she's Luke's daughter.
Why not split the difference? Rey is Luke and Leia's daughter. :P
Jabba the Hutt is a possibility as well. :hmm:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette2.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fslaveleia%2Fimages%2Fa%2Fa1%2FLeia_Sleeps_by_Jabba.jpg%2Frevision%2Flatest%3Fcb%3D20100523150451&hash=68a782b367c821feb19e51fc2bddca88d5830957)
Ewww ... :yuk:
:D
You guys are missing the obvious - she's an in vitro offspring of Luke and Han.
Quote from: Syt on December 22, 2015, 04:22:04 PM
You guys are missing the obvious - she's an in vitro offspring of Luke and Han.
I knew the gays would be to blame somehow. :mad:
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 22, 2015, 04:20:10 PMThank you for that visual. :yuk: :x
Just laying out the options man. She did get around a bit in the last trilogy. -_-
Quote from: Legbiter on December 22, 2015, 04:41:30 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 22, 2015, 04:20:10 PMThank you for that visual. :yuk: :x
Just laying out the options man. She did get around a bit in the last trilogy. -_-
Perhaps Hutts have a freakishly long gestation period ... :hmm:
Thankfully, Rey appears to have taken after her mother's side in appearance. Unless, like southern Italian women, she suddenly switches when she reaches her thirties. :P
Quote from: Legbiter on December 20, 2015, 04:45:39 PM
A competent boxticker by the director and overall a serviceable reboot of the first Star Wars film and franchise. Finn and Poe were ok characters, the chick was a total Mary Sue. The little droid stole most of the scenes it was in.
I thought that first Rey came across like Kaylee Frye (from Firefly); which I thought would have been a clever as Captain Mal owes a great deal to Han Solo. As the movie progressed it became obvious that she was Mary Sue Skywalker.
Did Maz Kanata remind anyone else of Edna Mode, the super fashion designer from "The Incredibles"?
Rey was obviously a retread female Luke Skywalker, but I liked her better. Less whiny (even though she has more reason to be ;) ). I didn't think she was a Mary Sue, any more than Luke was.
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 05:36:57 PM
Rey was obviously a retread female Luke Skywalker, but I liked her better. Less whiny (even though she has more reason to be ;) ). I didn't think she was a Mary Sue, any more than Luke was.
Well, Luke needed a bit more training before he started doing Force tricks. She certainly was a Mary Sue. I liked her character, mind. I expect she will be de-Mary Sued in Ep VIII, like it happened to Luke in Ep V
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 05:36:57 PM
Rey was obviously a retread female Luke Skywalker, but I liked her better. Less whiny (even though she has more reason to be ;) ). I didn't think she was a Mary Sue, any more than Luke was.
Luke actually failed his way to success, only wheeled out like an idiot savant for certain set pieces where his force powers were required and carefully kept alive by the more competent around him. First he got beat up by the Tuskan raiders, saved by Obi, saved again by Obi at the cantina from those two ruffians, saved by Han Solo at the trench run in the end, saved by Han on Hoth, etc, etc, etc. Even in the end Luke utterly fails to actually defeat the Emperor, only saved by Vader.
Rey on the other hand is a hobo in god mode from the first minute, expert force user, brilliant pilot, mechanic, instant best buddies with Han, light saber virtuoso, yaddayadda.
She is easier on the eyes though than Luke was, agreed.
Quote from: Legbiter on December 22, 2015, 05:48:55 PM
Luke actually failed his way to success, only wheeled out like an idiot savant for certain set pieces where his force powers were required and carefully kept alive by the more competent around him. First he got beat up by the Tuskan raiders, saved by Obi, saved again by Obi at the cantina from those two ruffians, saved by Han Solo at the trench run in the end, saved by Han on Hoth, etc, etc, etc. Even in the end Luke utterly fails to actually defeat the Emperor, only saved by Vader.
Pudding: overegged. Luke diced up that Walker pretty nicely.
edit: woops
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2015, 05:52:08 PM
Quote from: Legbiter on December 22, 2015, 05:48:55 PM
Luke actually failed his way to success, only wheeled out like an idiot savant for certain set pieces where his force powers were required and carefully kept alive by the more competent around him. First he got beat up by the Tuskan raiders, saved by Obi, saved again by Obi at the cantina from those two ruffians, saved by Han Solo at the trench run in the end, saved by Han on Hoth, etc, etc, etc. Even in the end Luke utterly fails to actually defeat the Emperor, only saved by Vader.
Pudding: overegged. Luke diced up that Walker pretty nicely.
[/quote]
Ep V is very well done in that regard though. Luke starts as billy big bollocks and then eats a nice big humble pie as the film progresses. First when Yoda shows him that he's still shit at that Force lark, and then when Vader emasculates him at Cloud City.
Quote from: celedhring on December 22, 2015, 05:48:49 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 05:36:57 PM
Rey was obviously a retread female Luke Skywalker, but I liked her better. Less whiny (even though she has more reason to be ;) ). I didn't think she was a Mary Sue, any more than Luke was.
Well, Luke needed a bit more training before he started doing Force tricks. She certainly was a Mary Sue. I liked her character, mind. I expect she will be de-Mary Sued in Ep VIII, like it happened to Luke in Ep V
She's shown learning force tricks by imitating what Han Solo Jr. tries doing to her.
From Wikipedia (which for a pop culture meme like Mary Sue, seems as authoritative as any:
QuoteOrigin and development of the meaning[edit]
The term "Mary Sue" comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale"[2]:15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[3] The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"), and satirized unrealistic Star Trek fan fiction.[4] Such characters were generally female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canonical adult characters, or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégées of those characters.[citation needed] By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked such characters, saying:
Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.[5]
"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies"[6] for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.[7]
I'm not sure if I would call Rey a Mary Sue. Clearly there's no element of wish-fulfillment or author-insertion.
But clearly Rey is very talented. So it's not without some merit. But is she any more talented than Luke (or Anakin in the prequels) was?
Yet again though, we're only shown a portion of the story. Much will depend on how her character develops.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 22, 2015, 05:52:08 PMPudding: overegged. Luke diced up that Walker pretty nicely.
Too bad about his copilot though. :contract:
Quote from: Legbiter on December 22, 2015, 05:48:55 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 05:36:57 PM
Rey was obviously a retread female Luke Skywalker, but I liked her better. Less whiny (even though she has more reason to be ;) ). I didn't think she was a Mary Sue, any more than Luke was.
Luke actually failed his way to success, only wheeled out like an idiot savant for certain set pieces where his force powers were required and carefully kept alive by the more competent around him. First he got beat up by the Tuskan raiders, saved by Obi, saved again by Obi at the cantina from those two ruffians, saved by Han Solo at the trench run in the end, saved by Han on Hoth, etc, etc, etc. Even in the end Luke utterly fails to actually defeat the Emperor, only saved by Vader.
Rey on the other hand is a hobo in god mode from the first minute, expert force user, brilliant pilot, mechanic, instant best buddies with Han, light saber virtuoso, yaddayadda.
She is easier on the eyes though than Luke was, agreed.
Rey has lived a different lifestyle than Luke. Luke was a farmhand. Rey lived as a scavenger, fighting off other scavengers. It isn't surprising she was better at infighting than Luke.
As for mechanic - she made her living climbing around inside starships and scavenging them.
Both characters suffered equally from "instantly good pilot" syndrome. Both had partial excuses, in that both "piloted" aircars (in Luke's case, blasting whomp-rats ;) ).
Instant buddies with Han Solo? Perhaps being a pretty chick, rather than a whiny dude, helps there. :D
Rey learns about the force by imitating what Han Solo Jr. tries on her.
If learning the Force was so easy as monkey sees, monkey does, Luke could have skipped Dagobah.
But I'm willing to give Rey's Mary-Sueness a pass until we know more about her, and what happens to her.
Quote from: Barrister on December 22, 2015, 05:58:14 PM
From Wikipedia (which for a pop culture meme like Mary Sue, seems as authoritative as any:
QuoteOrigin and development of the meaning[edit]
The term "Mary Sue" comes from the name of a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story "A Trekkie's Tale"[2]:15 published in her fanzine Menagerie #2.[3] The story starred Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet — only fifteen and a half years old"), and satirized unrealistic Star Trek fan fiction.[4] Such characters were generally female adolescents who had romantic liaisons with established canonical adult characters, or in some cases were the younger relatives or protégées of those characters.[citation needed] By 1976 Menagerie's editors stated that they disliked such characters, saying:
Mary Sue stories—the adventures of the youngest and smartest ever person to graduate from the academy and ever get a commission at such a tender age. Usually characterized by unprecedented skill in everything from art to zoology, including karate and arm-wrestling. This character can also be found burrowing her way into the good graces/heart/mind of one of the Big Three [Kirk, Spock, and McCoy], if not all three at once. She saves the day by her wit and ability, and, if we are lucky, has the good grace to die at the end, being grieved by the entire ship.[5]
"Mary Sue" today has changed from its original meaning and now carries a generalized, although not universal, connotation of wish-fulfillment and is commonly associated with self-insertion. True self-insertion is a literal and generally undisguised representation of the author; most characters described as "Mary Sues" are not, though they are often called "proxies"[6] for the author. The negative connotation comes from this "wish-fulfillment" implication: the "Mary Sue" is judged as a poorly developed character, too perfect and lacking in realism to be interesting.[7]
I'm not sure if I would call Rey a Mary Sue. Clearly there's no element of wish-fulfillment or author-insertion.
But clearly Rey is very talented. So it's not without some merit. But is she any more talented than Luke (or Anakin in the prequels) was?
Yet again though, we're only shown a portion of the story. Much will depend on how her character develops.
Bolded the most relevant parts. She instantly, without any schooling, force chokes the hell out of the Mary Sue criteria.
Quote from: celedhring on December 22, 2015, 06:05:43 PM
If learning the Force was so easy as monkey sees, monkey does, Luke could have skipped Dagobah.
But I'm willing to give Rey's Mary-Sueness a pass until we know more about her, and what happens to her.
Well, it may be the case that "monkey see, monkey do" only applies to 'while the monkey is torturing you', which sorta rules out the good guys using that particular technique on Luke. :D
Really, how much force-using does Rey do? She uses the 'suggestion' thingy on a stormtrooper, and she levitates Luke's lightsabre. The latter is at least partly because that object is 'rightfully' hers - her connection to it is established earlier, when she first finds it: for whatever reason, she has a bond with it (that explains why she could move it, while Han Solo Jr. can't).
Man, I choked the hell out of someone without any formal training. Sure he didn't die, but he was unconscious for like 20 minutes.
Quote from: Barrister on December 22, 2015, 05:58:14 PM
I'm not sure if I would call Rey a Mary Sue. Clearly there's no element of wish-fulfillment or author-insertion.
But clearly Rey is very talented. So it's not without some merit. But is she any more talented than Luke (or Anakin in the prequels) was?
Yet again though, we're only shown a portion of the story. Much will depend on how her character develops.
Anakin was ridiculous as well; force sensitive, child prodigy robot builder and only human who could compete in the chariot race. Anakin, though, obviously lacks emotional maturity; he's a very flawed character.
Luke skills aren't that unbelievable; he's a skilled pilot and a decent shot. Luke's flaws (until Return of the Jedi) are due to his youth; he's whines, he gets into scrapes and needs others to get him out.
Rey is an expert at hand to hand combat, a skilled pilot, a brilliant technician (to the point that she understands the Millennium Falcon better than Han Solo) and can do Force tricks without any training. More importantly she doesn't have any flaws. She might not be an according to Hoyle "Mary Sue," but she is an over-idealized character.
Quote from: Razgovory on December 22, 2015, 06:15:58 PM
Man, I choked the hell out of someone without any formal training. Sure he didn't die, but he was unconscious for like 20 minutes.
Good! Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you!
Quote from: Savonarola on December 22, 2015, 06:18:19 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 22, 2015, 05:58:14 PM
I'm not sure if I would call Rey a Mary Sue. Clearly there's no element of wish-fulfillment or author-insertion.
But clearly Rey is very talented. So it's not without some merit. But is she any more talented than Luke (or Anakin in the prequels) was?
Yet again though, we're only shown a portion of the story. Much will depend on how her character develops.
Anakin was ridiculous as well; force sensitive, child prodigy robot builder and only human who could compete in the chariot race. Anakin, though, obviously lacks emotional maturity; he's a very flawed character.
Luke skills aren't that unbelievable; he's a skilled pilot and a decent shot. Luke's flaws (until Return of the Jedi) are due to his youth; he's whines, he gets into scrapes and needs others to get him out.
Rey is an expert at hand to hand combat, a skilled pilot, a brilliant technician (to the point that she understands the Millennium Falcon better than Han Solo) and can do Force tricks without any training. More importantly she doesn't have any flaws. She might not be an according to Hoyle "Mary Sue," but she is an over-idealized character.
I gotta disagree on this. Characters don't require glaring "flaws" to be entertaining characters. It is possible to have highly skilled characters that work in fiction.
In her case, her "flaws" are pretty apparent: she is emotionally scarred by her abandonment, to the point where she is continually tempted to give up the quest just to return to almost certainly futile waiting around on her crapsack planet for her abandoners to return.
I actually liked the way they underplayed that aspect. Unlike Luke, they did not make her overly broody or whiny about it. I don't get that making her whiny would have been an
improvement, just so she could have obvious 'flaws'.
My primary complaint about the movie as a whole is that is was obviously a retread, not that Rey spoiled it.
Quote from: Syt on December 17, 2015, 05:21:06 AM
My main complaint so far is Andy Serkis' Supreme Leader. What the fuck kind of name is "Snoke"? That sounds like a villain for Teddy Ruxpin or the Gummy Bears, or a dastardly politician/industrialist/gangster in a 1930s pulp novel. And the creature in its CGI-ness looked out of place. And it reminded me decidedly too much of arse face from the Preacher comics.
Also, he's Gollum. :P
Rey's just too modest; which is the kind of "flaw" a Mary Sue would have. ;)
Quote from: Legbiter on December 22, 2015, 06:36:44 PM
Rey's just too modest; which is the kind of "flaw" a Mary Sue would have. ;)
:lol:
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 06:25:17 PM
I gotta disagree on this. Characters don't require glaring "flaws" to be entertaining characters. It is possible to have highly skilled characters that work in fiction.
Characters require "flaws" (not sure why that requires quotation marks) to be believable and to be interesting. Achilles without his hubris would be a very dull character indeed, no matter how skilled he was.
I really hope Kennedy doesn't do to Rey what Jeri Taylor did to Janeway. It would be pretty tragic if the next star wars movie is Rey and Finn alone on an idyllic planet where Finn builds things while Rey studies bees.
Quote from: Savonarola on December 22, 2015, 06:44:39 PM
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 06:25:17 PM
I gotta disagree on this. Characters don't require glaring "flaws" to be entertaining characters. It is possible to have highly skilled characters that work in fiction.
Characters require "flaws" (not sure why that requires quotation marks) to be believable and to be interesting. Achilles without his hubris would be a very dull character indeed, no matter how skilled he was.
Unlike the clever and multiple-skilled Odysseus, whom everyone finds unbelievable and boring in the Sequel. ;)
Really, what matters is if the character is interesting. They can be interesting
because they are greatly flawed, but that isn't the
only way they can be interesting.
The notion that Luke is somehow a better and more interesting character
because he is whiny and brooding strikes me as incorrect.
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 06:02:19 PM
Instant buddies with Han Solo? Perhaps being a pretty chick, rather than a whiny dude, helps there. :D
well, although at first she calls the Falcon a piece of junk, once she gets onboard and realizes what it is, she is in awe. Luke on the other hand called it a piece of junk in the face of Han Solo, so that got things started on the wrong foot. Insulting a sailor's wife is ok, but you never, never badmouth his ship :D
Quote from: Syt on December 20, 2015, 05:51:57 PM
I'm also thinking about getting Lost Stars: http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Star-Wars-Force-Awakens/dp/1484724984
Yes, it's Young Adult, but the setup (a Rebel and Imperial in love, and spanning the events of the original trilogy and the aftermath) sounds pretty decent, and it's gotten overall good reviews.
I read that and I don't recommend it. I kinda liked it at first, but the more I think about it the more I don't like it. I'd explain specifically why but I don't want to spoiler it for you.
Just watched it and read this thread. As I said in the non-spoilery thread, I enjoyed it *but*. Too many call backs, too many winks to the old fans. I guess it was needed as a reconciliation with fandom after the prequels, and hope that the next ones are more original.
Some quick observations:
- McGuffin in a droid for starters, first check on the call back list right at the beginning.
- BB 8 is the cutest, plushiest droid ever, and basically behaves as if he was a pet puppy or something, rather than a droid.
- Finn was a terrible, terrible stormtrooper. I mean, he doesn't really do anything during that assault. He just freezes, wanders around and I'd swear that he doesn't even shoot. I could buy it if he was a green recruit, but he's supposed to have been dehumanized (to the point of not having a real name) and trained since he was a child. This bothered me a bit.
- Kylo Ren shows a huge potential in the use of the force (dat frozen blast shot!), but is still really rough around the edges. Liked the emo personality and the idea of a dark jedi tempted by the light. Really looking forward to his development.
- Phasma seems to be there just to look cool. Hope they do something better with her in the next movies.
- The first order seems really terrible at surveillance in their facilities. Finn and Poe get away basically just walking around, and later the resistance just waltz in and nobody seems to alert anyone.
- Really strong nazi vibe from the first order, just as intended. Nazis are really the best villains, just ask Indiana Jones.
- The big bad gave me a Wizard of Oz vibe in the holograms, I wouldn't be surprised if he's some kind of evil Yoda by the time we see him for real.
- I enjoyed seeing Han back on his roguish ways, and not as some bigwig in the resistance. The encounter with the two gangs was entertaining, even if it was pointless in the big picture.
- Han's death was really apparent to me when they showed the pit and the narrow path over it. It was such a big callback to when Vader cuts Luke's hands and reveals that he's his father, so it kinda had a *BIG DRAMATIC MOMENT* neon light over it.
- So much for the wookies' fierceness. I was counting on Chewie going apeshit after Han's death, and going down fighting. But he's actually cerebral and, even if he shoots Ren, basically sticks to the plan. I wonder what they have for him in store for the next films.
- The baddies' penchant for big, bulky and impractical superweapons is actually exacerbated from the original films. I chalk it also to the nazi paralels and the "Let's build a bigger one where the previous one failed" mentality.
I'm surely forgetting some stuff. More to come tomorrow after I let my thoughts simmer a bit.
Quote from: The Larch on December 22, 2015, 08:52:22 PM
Just watched it and read this thread. As I said in the non-spoilery thread, I enjoyed it *but*. Too many call backs, too many winks to the old fans. I guess it was needed as a reconciliation with fandom after the prequels, and hope that the next ones are more original.
Some quick observations:
- Finn was a terrible, terrible stormtrooper. I mean, he doesn't really do anything during that assault. He just freezes, wanders around and I'd swear that he doesn't even shoot. I could buy it if he was a green recruit, but he's supposed to have been dehumanized (to the point of not having a real name) and trained since he was a child. This bothered me a bit.
- Phasma seems to be there just to look cool. Hope they do something better with her in the next movies.
Those were two things that bothered me too (in reverse order):
- Phasma was a total throw-away character. They cannot even bring her back again unless they Boba-Fett-style explain how she survives the place blowing up (but granted...they'll likely bring that General dude back, as he was told to evacuate, even if that seemed to be at a point where it was too late to do so, and it was never shown that he ever did).
- I actually thought Finn showed some good psychopathic tendencies...didn't want to shoot up villagers, but gleefully blows up his just-a-minute-ago-comrades in the Tie fighter bay.
In novel General Hux gets away after rescuing Ren, and Christie (Phantasma) is signed for VIII.
My little guys were playing Star Wars tonight.
Timmy started out playing as Luke. Andrew couldn't decide who he wanted to be, but eventually decided he wanted to be the guy who turned into stone. We figured out he meant Han.
But then later Timmy decided he'd much rather be Rey. She was much cooler, like some sort of ninja (his words).
Yay, finally got a chance to get to the theater to see TFA. I wanted to be there for the midnight release, but you know, adulting and such. It sucks.
I was cautiously optimistic; my biggest worry was that either the new characters would just be there for purposes of advancing the plot for the older ones or vice versa. I was pleasantly surprised by the mix of callbacks and deliberate departures from formula. In fact, I've got exactly one complaint about TFA, which I'll get out of the way first:
Whose brilliant idea was it to have Finn be one of the crack stormtroopers there to murder the village in the first place? That ship was HUGE, easily carrying thousands of troops. Only 4 transports went down, which looked like about 10-15 passengers each. So to suppress an entire village, they bring a crack team of 40-60 stormtroopers, one of which happened to be a guy who had never before seen combat? Call me cynical or chalk it up to associating with an abundance of military personnel, but that was just stupid.
What I think they were trying to do, as shown by Kylo seeming to know he was weak, but letting him go anyway, was to show him projecting his doubts about his darksidedness. But it was kinda clumsy in how they did it.
Quote from: Tonitrus on December 22, 2015, 11:35:33 PM
What I think they were trying to do, as shown by Kylo seeming to know he was weak, but letting him go anyway, was to show him projecting his doubts about his darksidedness. But it was kinda clumsy in how they did it.
It was clumsy in that Finn's basically never established as a "stormtrooper." If Finn's defection had waited a couple of scenes, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as jarring. Finn was so clearly out of place that he never should have been on that transport in the first place. Phasma said it was his "first incident of nonconformity." One would think with that kind of conditioning, they would be able to spot body language so blatant it telegraphs through full body armor and a full face mask. Given the entire prequel trilogy, though, I think I can let one bad moment slide, especially when the rest of the movie's so good.
Quote from: Malthus on December 22, 2015, 06:15:18 PM
Quote from: celedhring on December 22, 2015, 06:05:43 PM
If learning the Force was so easy as monkey sees, monkey does, Luke could have skipped Dagobah.
But I'm willing to give Rey's Mary-Sueness a pass until we know more about her, and what happens to her.
Well, it may be the case that "monkey see, monkey do" only applies to 'while the monkey is torturing you', which sorta rules out the good guys using that particular technique on Luke. :D
And it didn't even work the first time she did it!
Persuasion is a very iffy proposition, and has as much to do with the strength of the mind being persuaded as it does the practitioner. I have no problem thinking that her ability to make it work on some random weak minded stormtrooper who has been indoctrinated since a young age to mindlessly follow any and all orders is not really an indication of the training required for true mastery.
She is exceptional, stormtrooper guy is exceptionally susceptible.
Hell, Rylo probably had an exaggerated sense of his own power, since he probably mostly used it on fascist troopers, who might be uniquely trained to be susceptible to exactly that!
Quote
Really, how much force-using does Rey do? She uses the 'suggestion' thingy on a stormtrooper, and she levitates Luke's lightsabre. The latter is at least partly because that object is 'rightfully' hers - her connection to it is established earlier, when she first finds it: for whatever reason, she has a bond with it (that explains why she could move it, while Han Solo Jr. can't).
Rylo could only not move it because Rey was actively opposing him though, right?
http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/harrison-ford-50-times-pay.html?mid=facebook_nymag
QuoteReport: Harrison Ford Was Paid More Than 50 Times More Than His Force Awakens Co-Stars
The Force Awakens is making a stupid amount of record-breaking money, so its stars must be, too, right? Well, yes, but especially if you are Harrison Ford, according to the Daily Mail. In a report published this weekend, the 73-year-old icon was cited as raking in a hefty eight-figure salary — one roughly 76 times greater than those of Daisy Ridley and John Boyega — for reprising his role as Han Solo.
Variety checked in late Monday, however, with updated flat fees:
Ford: $10 million-$20 million
Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher: low seven-figure range
Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac: mid-to-high six-figure range
Boyega, Ridley: $100,000-$300,000
Returning actors reportedly received a legacy pay scale that boosted them above the newer talent — Ford is highest because of that special plot-related reason you're suspecting. "Harrison is the key to making this movie work. He's the link between the old generation and the new," a source explained to Mail. "Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were good to get, but the film could have lived without them. You couldn't make it without Harrison Ford."
Variety added that Episode VIII participants will likely get to renegotiate their contracts and that the above numbers don't account for back-end bonuses, which activate once the film's worldwide box-office breaks $1 billion. In other words, the non-Ford stars are still making, or will likely soon be making, this kind of money, too. Read more about the paydays here.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on December 22, 2015, 11:46:23 PM
It was clumsy in that Finn's basically never established as a "stormtrooper." If Finn's defection had waited a couple of scenes, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as jarring. Finn was so clearly out of place that he never should have been on that transport in the first place. Phasma said it was his "first incident of nonconformity." One would think with that kind of conditioning, they would be able to spot body language so blatant it telegraphs through full body armor and a full face mask. Given the entire prequel trilogy, though, I think I can let one bad moment slide, especially when the rest of the movie's so good.
I think it would have sufficed to have him fully participate in the assault, shooting at the resisting villagers, up until the point where he has second thoughts about killing the unarmed/captured ones. But I guess Disney wanted him to be a 100% pure good guy.
Logical that Ford got paid more for ONE movie where his character is pretty central. And Hamill got a seven figure and did not even say a word!? Not bad!
Quote from: Syt on December 23, 2015, 10:08:33 AM
http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/harrison-ford-50-times-pay.html?mid=facebook_nymag
QuoteReport: Harrison Ford Was Paid More Than 50 Times More Than His Force Awakens Co-Stars
The Force Awakens is making a stupid amount of record-breaking money, so its stars must be, too, right? Well, yes, but especially if you are Harrison Ford, according to the Daily Mail. In a report published this weekend, the 73-year-old icon was cited as raking in a hefty eight-figure salary — one roughly 76 times greater than those of Daisy Ridley and John Boyega — for reprising his role as Han Solo.
Variety checked in late Monday, however, with updated flat fees:
Ford: $10 million-$20 million
Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher: low seven-figure range
Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac: mid-to-high six-figure range
Boyega, Ridley: $100,000-$300,000
Returning actors reportedly received a legacy pay scale that boosted them above the newer talent — Ford is highest because of that special plot-related reason you're suspecting. "Harrison is the key to making this movie work. He's the link between the old generation and the new," a source explained to Mail. "Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were good to get, but the film could have lived without them. You couldn't make it without Harrison Ford."
Variety added that Episode VIII participants will likely get to renegotiate their contracts and that the above numbers don't account for back-end bonuses, which activate once the film's worldwide box-office breaks $1 billion. In other words, the non-Ford stars are still making, or will likely soon be making, this kind of money, too. Read more about the paydays here.
100 000 - 300 000 is a laughable salary for a major role in an ultra-expensive blockbuster. I hope they negotiated a decent backend at the very least.
Quote from: celedhring on December 23, 2015, 10:20:04 AM
100 000 - 300 000 is a laughable salary for a major role in an ultra-expensive blockbuster. I hope they negotiated a decent backend at the very least.
That's what I was thinking. If you can afford to pay a guy 20 mil, you can afford to pay your leads better than 100k.
Quote from: celedhring on December 23, 2015, 10:20:04 AM
Quote from: Syt on December 23, 2015, 10:08:33 AM
http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/harrison-ford-50-times-pay.html?mid=facebook_nymag
QuoteReport: Harrison Ford Was Paid More Than 50 Times More Than His Force Awakens Co-Stars
The Force Awakens is making a stupid amount of record-breaking money, so its stars must be, too, right? Well, yes, but especially if you are Harrison Ford, according to the Daily Mail. In a report published this weekend, the 73-year-old icon was cited as raking in a hefty eight-figure salary — one roughly 76 times greater than those of Daisy Ridley and John Boyega — for reprising his role as Han Solo.
Variety checked in late Monday, however, with updated flat fees:
Ford: $10 million-$20 million
Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher: low seven-figure range
Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac: mid-to-high six-figure range
Boyega, Ridley: $100,000-$300,000
Returning actors reportedly received a legacy pay scale that boosted them above the newer talent — Ford is highest because of that special plot-related reason you're suspecting. "Harrison is the key to making this movie work. He's the link between the old generation and the new," a source explained to Mail. "Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were good to get, but the film could have lived without them. You couldn't make it without Harrison Ford."
Variety added that Episode VIII participants will likely get to renegotiate their contracts and that the above numbers don't account for back-end bonuses, which activate once the film's worldwide box-office breaks $1 billion. In other words, the non-Ford stars are still making, or will likely soon be making, this kind of money, too. Read more about the paydays here.
100 000 - 300 000 is a laughable salary for a major role in an ultra-expensive blockbuster. I hope they negotiated a decent backend at the very least.
Ridley and Boyega though were complete unknowns. They had precisely zero bagaining power. Plus appearing in this movie is going to completely make their careers. If anything they should have paid money to Abrams to be in The Force Awakens.
Driver and Isaac, in comparison, weren't huge stars or anything but they do have some experience.
And as for Fisher, Hamil and Ford... sure you could make the movie without them, but they're the people the fans wanted to see. They had plenty of bargaining power.
Quote from: Barrister on December 23, 2015, 11:44:57 AMPlus appearing in this movie is going to completely make their careers. If anything they should have paid money to Abrams to be in The Force Awakens.
Yeah, look at Hayden Christensen, he's killing it. :P
Quote from: Barrister on December 21, 2015, 04:53:10 PM
Timmy totally didn't recognize Han or Leia (or Luke for that matter). I guess they do look fairly different than 30 years ago. :(
Tommy was a little freaked out by how old Leia was.
I would have done it for free plus a percentage of the gross.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 23, 2015, 02:30:59 PM
I would have done it for free plus a percentage of the gross.
No one gets gross points, do they?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2015, 02:49:24 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 23, 2015, 02:30:59 PM
I would have done it for free plus a percentage of the gross.
No one gets gross points, do they?
YOu're stupid to take net points. Movies are infamous for never turning a profit.
IIRC some of the original Star Wars actors got some percentages, and of course earned enormous sums of money as a result.
I heard Ford got gross, yeah.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 23, 2015, 02:57:51 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 23, 2015, 02:56:27 PM
YOu're stupid to take net points.
:Embarrass:
Sony infamously argued that the Spiderman films had lost money in order to avoid paying Stan Lee his net (they ended up losing in court). So yeah, nobody trusts Hollywood's books nowadays.
Carrie has a frozen face now. It's pretty clear she hasn't acted in a while.
Seen the movie a third time. Still had a great time, but I think I'll wait till the blu ray comes out before watching again. :)
I'm tempted to fit a 3D session somewhere down the line. Is it: worth it?
IMAX 3D was awesome.
Quote from: katmai on December 23, 2015, 04:55:21 PM
IMAX 3D was awesome.
Done it twice, very worth it IMHO.
About the actor payments - I seem to recall that Ford was paid something like $10,000 for ANH. He only got the part because he was working as carpenter in the offices where the casting was done, and Lucas asked him to help out with the line readings. Ford nailed the part so well that he got the role.
On the other hand, "Guinness was one of the few cast members who believed that the film would be successful; he negotiated a deal for 2% of the one-fifth gross royalties paid to George Lucas, which made him quite wealthy in later life." (Wiki) I read somewhere that he made close to $100,000,000 from the movies.
https://twitter.com/KyloR3n
:lol:
Quote from: celedhring on December 23, 2015, 06:16:04 PM
https://twitter.com/KyloR3n
:lol:
:lol:
http://www.boredpanda.com/princess-leia-bikini-return-jedi-beach-shoot-1983-carrie-fisher (http://www.boredpanda.com/princess-leia-bikini-return-jedi-beach-shoot-1983-carrie-fisher)
:perv:
Quote from: Brazen on December 24, 2015, 04:49:36 AM
Quote from: celedhring on December 23, 2015, 06:16:04 PM
https://twitter.com/KyloR3n
:lol:
:lol:
http://www.boredpanda.com/princess-leia-bikini-return-jedi-beach-shoot-1983-carrie-fisher (http://www.boredpanda.com/princess-leia-bikini-return-jedi-beach-shoot-1983-carrie-fisher)
:perv:
Best christmas gift ever. :perv:
Quote from: derspiess on December 23, 2015, 01:44:34 PM
Quote from: Barrister on December 21, 2015, 04:53:10 PM
Timmy totally didn't recognize Han or Leia (or Luke for that matter). I guess they do look fairly different than 30 years ago. :(
Tommy was a little freaked out by how old Leia was.
I was freaked out too, guess the health problems have aged her a lot :(
Quote from: Brazen on December 24, 2015, 04:49:36 AM
Quote from: celedhring on December 23, 2015, 06:16:04 PM
https://twitter.com/KyloR3n
:lol:
:lol:
http://www.boredpanda.com/princess-leia-bikini-return-jedi-beach-shoot-1983-carrie-fisher (http://www.boredpanda.com/princess-leia-bikini-return-jedi-beach-shoot-1983-carrie-fisher)
:perv:
:blink: :perv: :worthy:
It appears someone at the Vatican didn't like the new SW:
http://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainment/topnews/vatican-paper-rips-star-wars-the-force-awakens/ar-BBnS55q?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignoutmd
G.
Quote from: celedhring on December 19, 2015, 05:04:44 AM
So I don't come across as a hater I'll say that I liked Rey and Kylo Ren a lot. Ren is the kind of insecure and powerful young man that Anakin Skywalker should have been in the prequels. Since both characters look like they will be the core of the new saga, I'm already sold on that aspect.
Ren is probably the only thing that sets this movie apart from being a mere retread of A New Hope, too.
When I first heard him speak through the mask I thought the voice was all wrong. Too weak and hollow. But then as the movie went on, that is exactly what they were going for. I thought the characters were much more compelling than the other movies.
I didn't find Rey to be that much of a Mary Sue. Highly competent yes, but the fight with Kylo Ren wasn't necessarily an example of it. It seems clear that either Kylo isn't much of a fighter or was a bit discombobulated after killing his father. Finn was able to hang with him far too long for Kylo to be on the level of the skilled practitioners of the lit sword from previous movies.
Quote from: Brazen on December 24, 2015, 04:49:36 AM
Quote from: celedhring on December 23, 2015, 06:16:04 PM
https://twitter.com/KyloR3n
:lol:
:lol:
http://www.boredpanda.com/princess-leia-bikini-return-jedi-beach-shoot-1983-carrie-fisher (http://www.boredpanda.com/princess-leia-bikini-return-jedi-beach-shoot-1983-carrie-fisher)
:perv:
Never saw those before. Very fun and sexy!
Quote from: frunk on December 24, 2015, 07:24:53 PM
I didn't find Rey to be that much of a Mary Sue. Highly competent yes, but the fight with Kylo Ren wasn't necessarily an example of it. It seems clear that either Kylo isn't much of a fighter or was a bit discombobulated after killing his father. Finn was able to hang with him far too long for Kylo to be on the level of the skilled practitioners of the lit sword from previous movies.
I would also speculate that Dark Side force users (and light side for that matter) would not really be very good swordsman in this universe.
After all, who would Ren practice against? He is one of a couple Sith Force users in the galaxy at this time, and any enemy he runs into he can dispatch easily without the need to get into some kind of saber duel.
There really isn't any reason to believe that he would be a better melee fighter than Rey, in fact - and running into another force user, where their force powers negate each other, he could find himself easily outmatched by someone who has NOT had the force to rely on all their lives.
Quote from: Barrister on December 22, 2015, 11:29:44 PM
My little guys were playing Star Wars tonight.
Timmy started out playing as Luke. Andrew couldn't decide who he wanted to be, but eventually decided he wanted to be the guy who turned into stone. We figured out he meant Han.
But then later Timmy decided he'd much rather be Rey. She was much cooler, like some sort of ninja (his words).
You let your boys play female characters?
Bad move, daddy.
I see a Martinus in your future.
Death Star architect defends exhaust port design:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agcRwGDKulw&feature=youtu.be
DUDE: http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/
"The motion picture event of a generation." :bleeding:
Just throttle it down and let word of mouth work for fuck's sake.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on December 25, 2015, 03:58:15 PM
"The motion picture event of a generation." :bleeding:
Just throttle it down and let word of mouth work for fuck's sake.
It's comfortably going to become the most watched film in the US since Titanic.
Quote from: Hamilcar on December 25, 2015, 05:51:41 AM
DUDE: http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/
Ugh. Spilling that much ink defending a series of bad movies is almost as much a waste of time as reading the defense.
1. The flashback scene was confusing but isn't one implication (possible?) that Rey was being trained at a very young age. That would explain her quick force learning on the fly.
2. At risk of taking the SW "theology" too seriously . . . it always seemed to me that one narrative theme of the prequels is the hubris of the Jedi Order being the cause of its tragic flaw. The Jedi have this constitutionally awkward position as unelected guardians in a Republic that respects democratic ideals; even worse their bizarre monastic lifestyles and suppression of emotions renders them kind of inhuman and fundamentally cutoff from the people they are supposed to be protecting. There are scenes at the prequels that hint at popular resentment of the Jedi, which makes sense. Throughout the prequels Palpatine is running rings around the Jedi - even the great Yoda - they are constantly falling into his traps, even incredibly obvious Ackbar size ones like the convenient clone army of mysterious provenance that happens to arrive just when needed. They are out of touch, consumed by their own "prophecies" and mumbo-jumbo and their inhuman codes of conduct. The obvious lesson is that there does need to be balance - but not as between "Light Jedi" and "Dark Sith" but balance within each person. Of course a balanced human with Force powers would raise the problem Malthus alludes to - such a person is just too dangerous to society at large. An institutions like the Jedi Order exists not to control the force, but to control force-users to reduce their danger to everyone else and make them useful to human society - the paradox is that can only be achieved by rendering them one-dimensional and inhuman - so that the effort is doomed to fail.
I really enjoyed the film. Beside the fact that Rey was too good too fast what bugged me was that the shields were taken down so easily from what seemed like a random console.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 26, 2015, 04:05:13 PM
1. The flashback scene was confusing but isn't one implication (possible?) that Rey was being trained at a very young age. That would explain her quick force learning on the fly.
Saw it again today, and I think you are right. I suspect Rey was at whatever Jedi training that Luke had setup and that Kylo Ren destroyed.
Watching it again, I don't think there can be too much doubt that she is Luke's daughter, and hence Ren's cousin.
Quote
2. At risk of taking the SW "theology" too seriously . . . it always seemed to me that one narrative theme of the prequels is the hubris of the Jedi Order being the cause of its tragic flaw. The Jedi have this constitutionally awkward position as unelected guardians in a Republic that respects democratic ideals; even worse their bizarre monastic lifestyles and suppression of emotions renders them kind of inhuman and fundamentally cutoff from the people they are supposed to be protecting. There are scenes at the prequels that hint at popular resentment of the Jedi, which makes sense. Throughout the prequels Palpatine is running rings around the Jedi - even the great Yoda - they are constantly falling into his traps, even incredibly obvious Ackbar size ones like the convenient clone army of mysterious provenance that happens to arrive just when needed. They are out of touch, consumed by their own "prophecies" and mumbo-jumbo and their inhuman codes of conduct. The obvious lesson is that there does need to be balance - but not as between "Light Jedi" and "Dark Sith" but balance within each person. Of course a balanced human with Force powers would raise the problem Malthus alludes to - such a person is just too dangerous to society at large. An institutions like the Jedi Order exists not to control the force, but to control force-users to reduce their danger to everyone else and make them useful to human society - the paradox is that can only be achieved by rendering them one-dimensional and inhuman - so that the effort is doomed to fail.
I love this kind of analysis, even when we all know it is likely we are reading much more into the entire thing that than the people who actually wrote it intended.
But I agree - the Jedi order are like Catholic priests - their very monasticy makes them almost incapable of actually shepherding the people. They are so far removed from normal people as to be alien. The dark side goes almost the opposite direction - so consumed by emotion that they become a farce, albeit a very dangerous one.
I think it would be cool to see a light side force user group arise that are NOT Jedi.
Quote from: HVC on December 26, 2015, 07:39:19 PM
I really enjoyed the film. Beside the fact that Rey was too good too fast
The more I think about this, the less it bothers me.
In fact, it is pretty easy to argue that she could have vastly more practical combat knowledge than Ren.
Except for the bit where apparently she knows how to pilot interstellar starships. That doesn't make much sense.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 26, 2015, 04:05:13 PM
2. At risk of taking the SW "theology" too seriously . . . it always seemed to me that one narrative theme of the prequels is the hubris of the Jedi Order being the cause of its tragic flaw. The Jedi have this constitutionally awkward position as unelected guardians in a Republic that respects democratic ideals; even worse their bizarre monastic lifestyles and suppression of emotions renders them kind of inhuman and fundamentally cutoff from the people they are supposed to be protecting. There are scenes at the prequels that hint at popular resentment of the Jedi, which makes sense. Throughout the prequels Palpatine is running rings around the Jedi - even the great Yoda - they are constantly falling into his traps, even incredibly obvious Ackbar size ones like the convenient clone army of mysterious provenance that happens to arrive just when needed. They are out of touch, consumed by their own "prophecies" and mumbo-jumbo and their inhuman codes of conduct. The obvious lesson is that there does need to be balance - but not as between "Light Jedi" and "Dark Sith" but balance within each person. Of course a balanced human with Force powers would raise the problem Malthus alludes to - such a person is just too dangerous to society at large. An institutions like the Jedi Order exists not to control the force, but to control force-users to reduce their danger to everyone else and make them useful to human society - the paradox is that can only be achieved by rendering them one-dimensional and inhuman - so that the effort is doomed to fail.
That chimes with a video I watched the other day that pretty much repeats these points, but also adds that Palpatine is right, that the Jedi are afraid of losing their power - by Episode III the chancellor has wide reaching powers, but up to this point he has followed the democratic process. He has promised to resign when the war is over or Grievous is defeated. The Jedi nevertheless decide to remove him from office if he refuses. Mace Windu is told by Anakin (who he doesn't trust much) that Palpatine might be the Sith Lord. He then immediately rushes off to arrest the chancellor - to which Palpatine says (possibly legally correctly?) that it's treason. During the fight Mace Windu decides that arresting Palpatine won't work and that he's too dangerous to be left alive, echoing Palpatine's words about Dooku, and showing to Anakin that Jedi and Palpatine are not that different from one another.
At any rate, the theory that Snoke is Darth Plagueis: We know through Palpatine that Plagueis (ostensibly his teacher) could use
midichlorians the Force to create life. What if he used that power to create Anakin as some sort of super Force user? He would choose a slave on a backwater planet outside the Republic, because it's unlikely the child will be discovered there by the Jedi. In the meantime, Plagueis wants to use Palpatine as puppet through which he can rule the Galaxy. Meanwhile, Palpatine finds his own apprentice in Darth Maul. Palpatine learns of the plan, kills his master Plagueis and puts his own plan for Galactic domination in motion. He takes on Dooku as new disciple, but already knows that he will be replaced by Anakin when he's lost his usefulness.
However, Plagueis was not dead. The attack from Sidious left him scarred, but his powers kept him alive or resurrected him. So basically he might be a lich now. When he wakes form his Odinsleep he starts forming the First Order. He realizes that Anakin had offspring who in turn had offspring. Luke can't be corrupted, and neither can his sister or Luke's daughter.He sees potential in Ben, and probably sees him as easy to corrupt. Maybe he appears to him as Vader? Kylo says in the movie show me *again* the power of the dark side, so he must have seen it before; though it may have been a vision, similar to the one Rey has when touching the lightsaber. Or maybe Ben Solo was jealous (of Rey? Because she learned her powers so quickly?). Anyways, he takes on Ben/Kylo as a student.
However, he remembers what Vader did: he was extremely powerful, and in the end sacrificed himself for his son. Which is why Plagueis doesn't give Kylo Ren his full training yet - he doesn't want him so powerful that he might be a threat if he has to choose between family and his master. Therefore Kylo Ren killing his father is a crucial proof that he doesn't have the same "flaw" that Vader had, and only then does Snoke/Plagueis agree to finish his training.
On Rey, there seems to be a theory that Lor San Tekka (Max von Sydow) was left with her as a guardian (during her vision we see a human hand holding her child arm), but that he left early to search for Luke's whereabouts. He's only just returned, but didn't make contact because he knew the First Order was on his heels. Another theory says that maybe Kylo Ren dropped her off there, because he couldn't bring himself to kill her (some seem to think the vision shows him saving her from a guy attacking her with a staff). But besides him flipping his shit when he hears that "a girl" helped the droid escape, he doesn't seem to recognize her in any way. I'm guessing that she was Luke's daughter and that her mother hid her on Jakku with a trustworthy person (but what became of that person?) to search for Luke after he sent them away. Regarding her Force powers I'm pretty sure she was at the Academy but forgot about it or (more likely) suppressed the traumatic memory (which comes back when she touches the familiar lightsaber). And it would be the most logical explanation for her being able to use the Force.
Quote from: Syt on December 27, 2015, 03:36:29 AM
(during her vision we see a human hand holding her child arm)
I went it saw it again with family, I could have sworn I saw something in that flashback that made me think the arm holding her was that alien dude on Jakku who was handing out the portions. But I'd need to see it again in slo-mo to be sure.
Quote from: Syt on December 27, 2015, 03:36:29 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 26, 2015, 04:05:13 PM
2. At risk of taking the SW "theology" too seriously . . . it always seemed to me that one narrative theme of the prequels is the hubris of the Jedi Order being the cause of its tragic flaw. The Jedi have this constitutionally awkward position as unelected guardians in a Republic that respects democratic ideals; even worse their bizarre monastic lifestyles and suppression of emotions renders them kind of inhuman and fundamentally cutoff from the people they are supposed to be protecting. There are scenes at the prequels that hint at popular resentment of the Jedi, which makes sense. Throughout the prequels Palpatine is running rings around the Jedi - even the great Yoda - they are constantly falling into his traps, even incredibly obvious Ackbar size ones like the convenient clone army of mysterious provenance that happens to arrive just when needed. They are out of touch, consumed by their own "prophecies" and mumbo-jumbo and their inhuman codes of conduct. The obvious lesson is that there does need to be balance - but not as between "Light Jedi" and "Dark Sith" but balance within each person. Of course a balanced human with Force powers would raise the problem Malthus alludes to - such a person is just too dangerous to society at large. An institutions like the Jedi Order exists not to control the force, but to control force-users to reduce their danger to everyone else and make them useful to human society - the paradox is that can only be achieved by rendering them one-dimensional and inhuman - so that the effort is doomed to fail.
That chimes with a video I watched the other day that pretty much repeats these points, but also adds that Palpatine is right, that the Jedi are afraid of losing their power - by Episode III the chancellor has wide reaching powers, but up to this point he has followed the democratic process. He has promised to resign when the war is over or Grievous is defeated. The Jedi nevertheless decide to remove him from office if he refuses. Mace Windu is told by Anakin (who he doesn't trust much) that Palpatine might be the Sith Lord. He then immediately rushes off to arrest the chancellor - to which Palpatine says (possibly legally correctly?) that it's treason. During the fight Mace Windu decides that arresting Palpatine won't work and that he's too dangerous to be left alive, echoing Palpatine's words about Dooku, and showing to Anakin that Jedi and Palpatine are not that different from one another.
In many ways, the Republic and the Jedi act like Vader and the Empire in the OT. The whole battle on Geonosis is a reversal of the battle on Hoth. Like the Rebels, the separatists fight of the Stormtroopers to try and get away. In Ep III, Padme even spells it out directly by asking Anaking basically "are we the bad guys?!"
While the separatists were organized by Sidious/Dooku/Grievous, they weren't the bad guys, just dupes.
Also, Qui-gon ~= Qigong, the "living force", transcending duality and ascension to balance & immortality.
Quote from: Hamilcar on December 27, 2015, 04:21:51 AM
While the separatists were organized by Sidious/Dooku/Grievous, they weren't the bad guys, just dupes.
Clearly. Otherwise they would have won the war very early on.
This movie in IMAX 3D is The Awesome. Was great to watch it a second time too, I really like this movie.
BTW, the imax screen is bigger than my house. LOL
I watched it the second time on an IMAX 3D. It just confirmed to me that 3D is teh stupid.
I liked the movie as a whole and enjoyed the tongue-in-cheek references to the old, good, movies, like the fact that Rey raids the crashed Star Destroyers for scrap payment and the stormtroopers on guard at the base talk about "the new TK-17 model...I hear it's really good". I really liked Rey as a character and some of the supporting roles (that ace pilot could have had a bigger role, forgot his name). Obviously bringing back Han, Chewie and Leia (and keeping Luke out of picture) is a stroke of genius. But...
There were scenes that could have been more enjoyable had they not felt too much like generic sci-fi set-ups, like when the two rival gangs just happen to confront Han Solo at exactly the same time on board his strange vessel and those tentacle monsters of course need to get loose. This was also true about the attack on Max von Sydow's (whoever he played?) village. Both scenes lacked the Star Wars feeling, to me.
On the other hand some scenes were just too repetitive of old familiar patterns (so too much Star Wars in a way) to be very interesting. To have a small group sneak their way into an unprotected rear entrance to a base that holds the key to destroy a gigantic weapon that soon, very soon, is within range/has fired up enough to destroy freedom in the galaxy, and MEANWHILE X-wing pilots are maneuvering narrow bombing alleys felt old in Return of the Jedi and unfortunately is beyond an homage or reminiscing here, it is just old and meh.
The biggest letdown of the movie was the bad guys though. First Order (whatever that is) appears to be a tired version of the Empire with even more incompetent Storm Troopers. Kylo Ren is a decent enough fledgling Vader but why the mask? And why is he super powerful sometimes and works telechinetics like a god but can't rip Finn to shreds properly (a nobody?) who picked up a light sabre five seconds ago? Why does General Huxx need to deliver a rallying speech to the Storm Troopers (reminded me of Pink Floyd's The Wall in aesthetics) when they are all brain-washed anyway? But the biggest letdown is Supreme Leader Snoke. A 7 meter tall cave troll just isn't good enough as a shit-your-pants evil leader.
So yes, Star Wars is back on track with this movie after a long desert walk, but to me this new episode relies too much on nostalgia and explains too little (or is too sloppy) about what's new in the galaxy. I gave it a 3.8 out of 5 coming out of the theatre, and that may have been generous. For one who knows absolutely nothing about anything Star Wars except the movies, and who is getting old and cranky, this movie is either very sloppy OR is a masterful preparation for the coming two installments. I hope it's the latter, of course, but just based on this single movie I say the hype is overrated. They have a lot of explaining to do in episode 8.
Kylo wears a mask not to hide his scars, but to hide his doubts. That part of the character is very well done; the first time he unmasks and you see that behind the scary mask there's just a boy is one of my favorite scenes in the film.
I'll agree with most of what you said, though. Too many plotholes and shortcuts, too derivative. But it's fun, and miles above the prequels.
The best I can say of the film is that I really want to see Episode 8 now.
Quote from: celedhring on December 28, 2015, 05:35:23 AM
The best I can say of the film is that I really want to see Episode 8 now.
Disney can live with this.
I want to see Episode 8 as well, but I'm still going to wait for the reviews before seeing Rogue One: A Star Wars Story.
Quote from: Delirium on December 28, 2015, 04:42:04 AM
The biggest letdown of the movie was the bad guys though. First Order (whatever that is) appears to be a tired version of the Empire with even more incompetent Storm Troopers. Kylo Ren is a decent enough fledgling Vader but why the mask? And why is he super powerful sometimes and works telechinetics like a god but can't rip Finn to shreds properly (a nobody?) who picked up a light sabre five seconds ago? Why does General Huxx need to deliver a rallying speech to the Storm Troopers (reminded me of Pink Floyd's The Wall in aesthetics) when they are all brain-washed anyway? But the biggest letdown is Supreme Leader Snoke. A 7 meter tall cave troll just isn't good enough as a shit-your-pants evil leader.
You dont know what the First Order is? Neither did I. But my boys did. Star Wars was has never been made for our demographic. But for the demographic they were going for they didnt need to fill in those "plot holes". Why the mask? Because he is trying his best to be his Grandfather. Or at least his view of what his grandfather was. That was the best explained theme in the movie. Why is he superpowerful at times but weak at others. Mainly because he has not completed his training. He is more like an Episode I or II Luke. Why can't he just rip Finn to shreds? Finn was trained as a storm trooper. The movie demonstrated that storm troopers are trained to use melee weapons. Why does Huxx give a speech? Because the brain washing needs reinforcement - ala the Nazi vibe they were going for. Who or what is Snoke - the question that apparently has social media all a twitter.
executive summary - if you were in the targeted demographic you would have enjoyed the movie a lot more. The best you can do is find someone who is so they can explain it all to you.
Not sure if I should feel young at heart or immature now. :hmm: :P
Quote from: crazy canuck on December 28, 2015, 09:16:31 AMYou dont know what the First Order is? Neither did I. But my boys did. Star Wars was has never been made for our demographic. But for the demographic they were going for they didnt need to fill in those "plot holes".
Aye, my sons who are 8 and 6 liked it quite a bit. :yes:
One thing about Snoke, IIRC we have only seen a projection of him so far............maybe there is something more scary behind the scenes.
Do you want a video of a dude in a Kylo Ren suit balancing over a BB-8 while playing "The Final Countdown" on flaming pipes? I bet you do!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=_YZfAJDYeOk
Quote from: celedhring on December 29, 2015, 04:58:11 AM
Do you want a video of a dude in a Kylo Ren suit balancing over a BB-8 while playing "The Final Countdown" on flaming pipes? I bet you do!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=16&v=_YZfAJDYeOk
I certainly didn't know I wanted to, but I can now say that I do.
Doesn't Anakin technically bring the force back in to balance BY killing thousands of jedi?
Quote from: Queequeg on December 29, 2015, 05:15:00 AM
Doesn't Anakin technically bring the force back in to balance BY killing thousands of jedi?
Palpatine's rise to power was unavoidable. With or without Darth Vader, there would be have been someone to hunt the Jedi down. Palpatine's plan was delayed by the death of Darth Maul and the victory of Naboo, but it all worked out in the end, even if the Republic won against the Seperatists.
Darth Vader was an agent of the Empire, one of many, one very talented, but there were others.
The balance he brought was by killing the Emperor, once the Force had gone way overboard with the Dark Side. No one else could have done that.
Avoided all spoilers and finally seen it.
My autocorrected splurge :
From the intro blurb - ok. That explains a lot of speculation . E.g. for luke being missing.
At the start it seems kind of like it's heading down the route of a flip of the first star wars. The way the pilot leaves the map with the DROID and gets captured. ...country girl introduced. ....she is going to save him ala luke and leia?
Storm trooper turning is nice and all. But why is he so special? What about all the others they slaughter without a care? Hin and his friend were already plotting to defect?
Han solos introduction and his lack of the Falcon doesn't quite make sense. But oh well.
The part on the cantina planet was the weakest part of the film. Just feels wrong. Finn and the girl change their minds too quickly from one thing to the other.
Who is the wee monster lady? Hmm.
It's all too typical of films alas to have this mid point crisis. Had hoped it wouldn't be done here but oh well.
Han solo dying. .... yeah. Not much of a shock actually. Kind of expected. Though makes me think - maybe they'll kill of an old main 3 in each of the new Trilogy?
Leia...just me or did she used to have a posh accent?
Amusing that the main villain is an angsty teen. I guess it makes for interesting development as he will become far more of a real villain as the girl becomes a real jedi. Though he does have a bit of of a headstart... which raises a point - how come Finn and the girl were able to go up against him in a sword fight so quickly?
really nice that they are keeping the villain and.not having him be thrown away like maul and the forgettable ones of 2 and 3.
Very nice ending with luke actually being shown. Feels more satisfying than what it seemed they were going to do and have a big long boring setup for the next film "the search for luke"
I don't quite get the first order and the resistance. How come the Republic can't fight these new empire guys themselves? Why do they need to go straight to being a rebellion?
I do find it interesting that all the first order guys all seem very very young. In the original trilogy they were old. I guess that side of things makes sense- the empire is dead and gone....but to these people who were just kids back then it still holds appeal, ready to be exploited by giant gollum (alas probably not actually a giant :( ) whoever he is.
I like the football DROID. He works.
As do all the nice little comedic touches. I shall have to examine more closely to figure out how this film works so well where the prequels just didn't.
Not related to the film so much....but saw it in imax 3D. Underwhelmed. The background was fuzzy and faded. Impossible to see when things move too fast. Wonder why. 3D films in the past haven't had this issue
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 21, 2015, 03:46:50 PM
BTW, regarding that last scene. I have a new place I have to visit, whatever that Irish Island is called. I'm sure it will not be exactly the same as shown in the film, but it sure looked awesome.
We should have a Languish meet there. It's called Skellig Michael, google it. Bucket list material, looks stunning.
I have a feeling this is going to do wonders for Irish tourism. :P
I wonder if there's a trade in there somewhere.
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on December 29, 2015, 05:54:07 PM
I have a feeling this is going to do wonders for Irish tourism. :P
I wonder if there's a trade in there somewhere.
Yes. I imagine so.
A pretty interesting read; a summary of known deleted scenes from the Force Awakens.
http://www.slashfilm.com/star-wars-the-force-awkens-deleted-scenes/
They address some of the confusing parts of the film (chiefly how the lightsaber ended up at Maz's castle, and the relationship between the Republic and the Resistance) - although the scenes don't look too great on paper themselves.
The only one that looks interesting is the one of Kyle Ren boarding the Millenium Falcon.
Are those scenes that are going to end up in a Directors Cut?
The article quotes Abrams saying that there won't be a Director's Cut. I think we'll certainly get them as extras in the home video releases though.
Finnaly, I can read this thread.
Shouldn't Luke get a giant "Best Hide and Seek" trophy?
How does he eat on that rock?
Fish and moss.
Quote from: Grey Fox on December 31, 2015, 01:31:04 PM
How does he eat on that rock?
Chinese takeout? Pizza delivery? :unsure:
He talks to the fish "You want to jump onto land."
Same way the monks did - fish and a gardern. Quite zen.
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 31, 2015, 12:22:24 PM
Shouldn't Luke get a giant "Best Hide and Seek" trophy?
I still don't get how the map ended up on Jakku. Let's see of that's explained. Why not give R2 the whole map?
Quote from: Zanza on December 31, 2015, 05:18:35 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 31, 2015, 12:22:24 PM
Shouldn't Luke get a giant "Best Hide and Seek" trophy?
I still don't get how the map ended up on Jakku. Let's see of that's explained. Why not give R2 the whole map?
First we need to figure out why was there a map to begin with.
Quote from: Zanza on December 31, 2015, 05:18:35 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 31, 2015, 12:22:24 PM
Shouldn't Luke get a giant "Best Hide and Seek" trophy?
I still don't get how the map ended up on Jakku. Let's see of that's explained. Why not give R2 the whole map?
Because Ming had it.
It sounds like the new Republic is as bad or worse than the old one was. If its gone from new beginnings to that level of corruption in under 30 years it wasn't worth saving.
Maybe the new trilogy will have a mourning, revenge-filled Princess Leia turning towards the dark side and having the Resistance take over the Republic as a tyrannical, militaristic regime.
I can't say I disagree with much of what he is saying here, in the broad strokes:
http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/12/star-wars-the-force-awakens-nostalgia-and-expectations/422154/?utm_source=SFFB
I don't know how it will shake out, the overall cultural assessment of the movie. I suspect his conclusion is right on though:
QuoteEventually, a critical consensus will emerge, as it did with The Phantom Menace and its sequels. But that consensus will almost certainly depend on subsequent installments of the new trilogy: If they break new ground, and send our younger generation of heroes spinning off in novel directions, The Force Awakens will likely be seen as a much-needed reset, one that cleansed the palate of the prequels and rediscovered the cinematic flavor of the original trilogy. If, on the other hand, we again find our heroes lassoing AT-ATs on a snow-covered planet, the darkest predictions of our cultural decline may be vindicated.
Quote from: katmai on December 31, 2015, 08:03:35 PM
Quote from: Zanza on December 31, 2015, 05:18:35 PM
Quote from: lustindarkness on December 31, 2015, 12:22:24 PM
Shouldn't Luke get a giant "Best Hide and Seek" trophy?
I still don't get how the map ended up on Jakku. Let's see of that's explained. Why not give R2 the whole map?
Because Ming had it.
...and he likes to play with things a while before annihilation? :hmm:
Just saw the movie. Absolutely fantastic! I love this movie and I can't wait to see more. Good balance of showing what the old gang is doing and introducing the next generation of heroes. The Han Solo death scene was really well-done. Lots of call-backs to the old series. Fast-paced, non-stop action. The comedy works and I laughed out loud on multiple occasions. The new villain is miles better than Darth Maul in Episode 1. Love the new heroes. I greatly enjoyed the show and this is a worthy successor to the franchise.
Some nitpicks -
Too many coincidences. Escaping in the Millennium Falcon then bumping into Han Solo in the universe? Infiltrate a planet and bump into the girl you are looking for randomly? Bump into Luke's light saber? These aren't convincing at all.
Taking down the shield was way too easy.
The general political situation was not well-explained. What is the relationship between the republic and the resistance?
The Starkiller planet consumes a star then shoots it? Unless the planet can move at warp speed to another system, it can only shoot once.
Don't read this post if you're emotionally invested in the movie and you're very sensitive.
I didn't like it. Celery mentioned plot holes, but, although I saw plenty, was not bothered by them. The movie is a sequence of set pieces, and how they move you from set piece to set piece is not all that important. But the set pieces don't work. All the scenes with Harrison Ford looked like Classic Tunes of the 80's infomericials. All the scenes with Ford and Fischer look like badly lit Love Boat scenes. X Wings go in and it was like Inside Llewynn Davis channelling Pearl Harbor the Awful Remake. Han getting ginzued was too much like Sigourney Weaver taking the blame for the crapitude of Aliens 3 and diving into a vat of molten steel to atone for her sins.
On the other hand, I think the mentats at Disney have figured out some magical formula for repeat viewings.
If I have to rank the 7 movies, it will be -
5, 4, 7, 6, 3, 2, 1. 3 and above are greats. 1 is a little bit disappointing, but still ok. 2 is merely good.
1 is crap (saved barely by Liam Neeson)
2 is crappier
3 swings by on its action sequences. You have to ignore the horrible misuse of two major villains, weak dialogue, and ridiculous action scenes.
4 and 5 is a classic
6 was lazy. "We're building a SECOND Death Star!"
7 was good but its definitely manufactured to trigger nostalgia. Its finale is a mix of ROTJ and ANH.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 04, 2016, 01:04:40 AM
Don't read this post if you're emotionally invested in the movie and you're very sensitive.
I didn't like it. Celery mentioned plot holes, but, although I saw plenty, was not bothered by them. The movie is a sequence of set pieces, and how they move you from set piece to set piece is not all that important. But the set pieces don't work. All the scenes with Harrison Ford looked like Classic Tunes of the 80's infomericials. All the scenes with Ford and Fischer look like badly lit Love Boat scenes. X Wings go in and it was like Inside Llewynn Davis channelling Pearl Harbor the Awful Remake. Han getting ginzued was too much like Sigourney Weaver taking the blame for the crapitude of Aliens 3 and diving into a vat of molten steel to atone for her sins.
On the other hand, I think the mentats at Disney have figured out some magical formula for repeat viewings.
I'm not offended, but I think you're crazy.
I personally didn't think the action scenes in Ep VII were all that. Serviceable, but nothing truly remarkable. The only noteworthy one was the escape from Jakku and it's Rey and Finn's interplay what lights it up.
The saber fight at the end too, and that's because the film manages to get me invested in the characters. But the whole attack on the Death Star 3 for example was actually meh.
Go to hell Yi.
Burn with your dark master.
Quote from: Monoriu on January 03, 2016, 08:52:05 PM
Some nitpicks -
Too many coincidences. Escaping in the Millennium Falcon then bumping into Han Solo in the universe? Infiltrate a planet and bump into the girl you are looking for randomly? Bump into Luke's light saber? These aren't convincing at all.
They are guided by the Force.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on December 26, 2015, 04:05:13 PM
1. The flashback scene was confusing but isn't one implication (possible?) that Rey was being trained at a very young age. That would explain her quick force learning on the fly.
2. At risk of taking the SW "theology" too seriously . . . it always seemed to me that one narrative theme of the prequels is the hubris of the Jedi Order being the cause of its tragic flaw. The Jedi have this constitutionally awkward position as unelected guardians in a Republic that respects democratic ideals; even worse their bizarre monastic lifestyles and suppression of emotions renders them kind of inhuman and fundamentally cutoff from the people they are supposed to be protecting. There are scenes at the prequels that hint at popular resentment of the Jedi, which makes sense. Throughout the prequels Palpatine is running rings around the Jedi - even the great Yoda - they are constantly falling into his traps, even incredibly obvious Ackbar size ones like the convenient clone army of mysterious provenance that happens to arrive just when needed. They are out of touch, consumed by their own "prophecies" and mumbo-jumbo and their inhuman codes of conduct. The obvious lesson is that there does need to be balance - but not as between "Light Jedi" and "Dark Sith" but balance within each person. Of course a balanced human with Force powers would raise the problem Malthus alludes to - such a person is just too dangerous to society at large. An institutions like the Jedi Order exists not to control the force, but to control force-users to reduce their danger to everyone else and make them useful to human society - the paradox is that can only be achieved by rendering them one-dimensional and inhuman - so that the effort is doomed to fail.
Really liked your analysis. :cool:
There was a brief moment during the movie when I hoped (not really expected though) that they would build Darth Emo as a doubting but major threat over time, and likewise build the Death Star as a threat into the next movie and do something else as climax here. When I realized they would destroy the Death Star a 3rd time already in this movie I was disappointed. Now the situation going into the next movie is that New Order took their best shot and were humiliated in general (and Darth Emo personally). They are the laughing stock of the galaxy. Yawn.
Quote from: Berkut on December 26, 2015, 10:18:54 PM
I love this kind of analysis, even when we all know it is likely we are reading much more into the entire thing that than the people who actually wrote it intended.
Well, isn't that the power of a true myth - being able to read more into it than its authors consciously intended? ;)
So I am planning to see it on Wednesday (we have a public holiday here). Should I watch any of the Star Wars movies before I do so? I have seen all of them a long time ago.
Quote from: Martinus on January 04, 2016, 02:24:01 PM
So I am planning to see it on Wednesday (we have a public holiday here). Should I watch any of the Star Wars movies before I do so? I have seen all of them a long time ago.
You don't have to watch anything. As long as you know who the major characters are (Luke, Leia, Han) then you'll be fine.
That being said it's never a bad idea to watch Star Wars movies. :cool:
4 would be the most important to see (lots of visual cues and references to that movie), then 5 and 6.
You do not need to watch 1-3 at all. They aren't referenced in the slightest. I'm on record though for saying that while they're not great, they're not horrible and if you're in the mood, go ahead and watch them.
Quote from: Martinus on January 04, 2016, 02:24:01 PM
Should I watch any of the Star Wars movies before I do so? I have seen all of them a long time ago.
Yes, especially the newest trilogy, I'd watch 2 or 3 times to be sure to understand it perfectly.
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 04, 2016, 01:04:40 AM
Don't read this post if you're emotionally invested in the movie and you're very sensitive.
Yi posting a trigger warning. What is the world coming to? :(
Neil degrasse Tyson is a buzzkill
http://thechive.com/2016/01/04/buzzkill-physicist-tears-into-star-wars-10-photos/
Star Wars is not really science fiction so big deal. They have never bothered with any of that science stuff.
Quote from: Valmy on January 04, 2016, 10:03:23 PM
Star Wars is not really science fiction so big deal. They have never bothered with any of that science stuff.
Lucas introduced midiclorians. he made it science fiction. once again he ruins everything :lol:
I wonder how much of the star's energy gets depleted by the process of transporting a bolt of pure energy instantaneously through hyperspace. :P
The dudes that bashed Fury Road for being anti-male propaganda are at it again, this time with TFA.
http://www.returnofkings.com/75991/why-star-wars-the-force-awakens-is-a-social-justice-propaganda-film
That must be some elaborate comedy, surely? They out themselves when praising the character development of Anakin Skywalker in the prequels.
Quote from: celedhring on January 05, 2016, 12:09:30 AM
The dudes that bashed Fury Road for being anti-male propaganda are at it again, this time with TFA.
http://www.returnofkings.com/75991/why-star-wars-the-force-awakens-is-a-social-justice-propaganda-film
That must be some elaborate comedy, surely? They out themselves when praising the character development of Anakin Skywalker in the prequels.
Lol, the comments discussion devolves into an argument about how white men have lost control of their women as the source of the problem.
http://hellogiggles.com/theory-rey-star-wars/
QuoteOK, since you're still here and have seen the movie (RIGHT?), let's chat. When we last left our new favorite heroine, Rey, she was stretching her arm out to return Luke Skywalker's lightsaber to him, having no clue what to do past that. Everyone watching from the comfort of their movie theaters all had one question on their minds: Is she meeting her father for the first time? After all, Rey's parentage is never disclosed during the film, as she herself has no idea whom she is waiting for on her home planet of Jakku. The Force is obviously strong with her, as shown throughout the events of the film, and she is able to wield Luke's lightsaber to defeat Kylo Ren in a duel with, as far as we know, zero Jedi training.
For these reasons, she could absolutely be Luke's daughter. The other big theory is that she could be the sister (or even twin sister) of Kylo Ren. Given Rey's rough beginnings on a desert planet and her story trajectory that's uncannily similar to Luke's in Star Wars: A New Hope, as well as her obvious connection to the Force and the ease at which she takes Han's place (I'm still sobbing) next to Chewie on the Millennium Falcon at the end of the movie, we viewers are encouraged along both of these paths in the films.
But director/co-writer J.J. Abrams – one of the masterminds behind LOST, lest we forget – may not let us off that easily. According to Reddit user nyteryder79 (and me, who called it as soon as I left the theater and I'm totally taking credit, SORRY), Rey is neither a Solo-Organa nor a Skywalker. She is a Kenobi.
Dun dun DUNNNN. At first, I know there are lots of arguments against it. "But the Jedi code!" "But she was given Luke's lightsaber!" "But Daisy Ridley looks nothing like Ewan McGregor or Sir Alec Guinness!"
But stay with me. There is so much evidence to support this theory, outlined so graciously by nyteryder79, that it isn't even funny. Here are the biggies.
The Jedi Order is over, meaning its vows are kind of null and void
Yes, Obi-Wan was extremely loyal to the Jedi Order/would've been a Hufflepuff in the Harry Potter world, and this includes its vows of celibacy. But as nyteryder79 notes, the Jedi Order kind of dissolved at the end of Revenge of the Sith, meaning Obi-Wan didn't really have anything to vow to anymore. It's a huge possibility that he could've found love and fathered one or more children he either never knew about or chose not to disclose to our original heroes, who could then have gone on to have Rey.
Obi-Wan has a past with that lightsaber, too
Yes, Rey feels called to by Luke's lightsaber and can wield it skillfully, especially considering her lack of training (though to be fair, Finn is able to do this fairly well too). But let's not forget that Obi-Wan Kenobi was also in possession of that lightsaber, which was originally Anakin Skywalker's, for at least 18 years before he delivered it to Luke. The Skywalker lightsaber was also based heavily on the design of Obi-Wan's own lightsaber, so the connection is definitely significant here.
Obi-Wan speaks to her during her lightsaber-fueled vision
James Arnold Taylor, who has voice Obi-Wan Kenobi in multiple Star Wars animated projects, confirmed on Twitter three days ago that Ewan McGregor (aka Obi-Wan in episodes I-III) was the voice who called out to Rey in the hallucination she experiences after touching Luke's lightsaber for the first time.
Why would he be the one speaking to her in a vision if Rey has never met him or has no connection to him whatsoever? This is really subtle – and simultaneously really huge.
Her mannerisms, personality, upbringing, and fighting style all parallel Obi-Wan's
A few of nyteryder79's observations, such as Rey's patience and intelligence, are fairly broad speculation. But it can't be ignored that, like Obi-Wan, Rey has survived on a desert planet in a fairly solitary environment with no known family. She also fights just like Obi-Wan; as nyteryder79 points out, she battles defensively and "moves her lightsaber just like Obi-Wan did with it extended out straight in front of her and moving it in a circular pattern." Rey's behaviors aboard the Starkiller Base – scaling walls, sneaking around – also parallel those of Obi-Wan aboard the base's predecessor, the Death Star.
Her accent matches Obi-Wan's
The fact that Daisy Ridley was allowed to keep her British accent while portraying Rey might seem like a slight detail at first. But it begs the question: Would John Boyega, who is also British, have been asked to use an American accent for Finn if there wasn't a significant reason? After all, the Star Wars universe is far, far away from places where accent differences matter. This detail is definitely worth considering important, as Obi-Wan Kenobi is pretty much the only character in main canon with a British accent that comes to mind. Unless you count C-3PO, which I almost always do, but not in this case.
Of course, there's also the possibility that Rey could be Obi-Wan's granddaughter and Luke's daughter, if Obi-Wan fathered a daughter whom Luke had Rey with. This genetic lottery win could explain why Rey is able to channel the powers of the Force so easily compared to others we've seen in the past, alongside her potential ingrained Padawan training (she was dropped off on Jakku as a young child, after all, and may not remember beginning to be trained) and the survival instincts she had time to build on Jakku.
Whatever Rey's background, I think it's safe to say that May 26, 2017 cannot get here fast enough.
I love all these theories. :lol:
I read that theory over a week ago, now I had not even thought about the possibility of a double whammy, "the possibility that Rey could be Obi-Wan's granddaughter and Luke's daughter". Now that would be awesome.
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 05, 2016, 10:12:57 AM
I read that theory over a week ago, now I had not even thought about the possibility of a double whammy, "the possibility that Rey could be Obi-Wan’s granddaughter and Luke’s daughter". Now that would be awesome.
Maybe she is the daughter of Luke AND Kenobi! They spent a lot of time together on the Falcon, and the ways of the Force are mysterious...
Someone suggested that she's a female clone of Luke Skywalker.
Ben had a daughter?
Maybe she's vaders illegitimate kid. Emo boy finds out and tries to temp her her to the dark side. Mirroring the original trilogy even more. Dysney execs would love it.
Quote from: HVC on January 05, 2016, 10:25:59 AM
Maybe she's vaders illegitimate kid. Emo boy finds out and tries to temp her her to the dark side. Mirroring the original trilogy even more. Dysney execs would love it.
Disney is also about dead parents in many of their productions. :P
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 04, 2016, 10:30:00 PM
I wonder how much of the star's energy gets depleted by the process of transporting a bolt of pure energy instantaneously through hyperspace. :P
there. that's the reason why they need an entire star's energy to destroy a few planets :P
Vader did "torture" Leia in the Death Star...ok, incest is probably not ok with Disney...
Quote from: Berkut on January 05, 2016, 10:16:09 AM
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 05, 2016, 10:12:57 AM
I read that theory over a week ago, now I had not even thought about the possibility of a double whammy, "the possibility that Rey could be Obi-Wan's granddaughter and Luke's daughter". Now that would be awesome.
Maybe she is the daughter of Luke AND Kenobi! They spent a lot of time together on the Falcon, and the ways of the Force are mysterious...
:hmm:
Quote from: Berkut on January 05, 2016, 10:28:45 AM
Vader did "torture" Leia in the Death Star...ok, incest is probably not ok with Disney...
:hmm:
Whatever you do, do not search for either of these theories from work, something tells me these ideas have been floated around already for years. :lol:
Quote from: Berkut on January 05, 2016, 10:28:45 AM
Vader did "torture" Leia in the Death Star...ok, incest is probably not ok with Disney...
You have to watch the XXX parody for that (though it's "just" a blowjob). It does have a threesome with Luke/Han/Leia, though.
The parody had some funny bits of dialogue and decent production values, but was overall not that great.
Ben: Your father was the best pilot in the galaxy. And he was a good friend.
Luke: My Uncle says he was a psychotic whiner.
Ben: ... and he was a good friend.
Luke: How did my father die?
Ben: A young Jedi named Darth Vader who was a pupil of mine until I cut his arms and legs off and left him burning in a river of lava ...
Luke: I-I think I want to go home now.
The prequels never got the "good friend" part across, though. Anakin goes from sweet young child in Ep. I to whiny bitch in Ep. 2 who constantly gives Obi-Wan lip. Ep. 3 is slightly better, but "BFF" is not a vibe I got. Which is a shame, because that was one of the main points the prequels needed to establish to raise the stakes for the final confrontation and the "reunion" in Ep. IV.
I guess you would have to rely on the Clone Wars cartoon series for that development in the friendship of Anakin and Obi Wan. Chalk it up to another failure of the prequels.
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 05, 2016, 10:25:57 AM
Ben had a daughter?
He was close to that Mandalorian girl once. We don't know anything else.
If Obi Wan had a kid with that Mandalorian chick, she'd have to be like 50 by now.
Quote from: Jaron on January 06, 2016, 12:26:58 AM
If Obi Wan had a kid with that Mandalorian chick, she'd have to be like 50 by now.
carbonite. The nostalgia circle is complete :lol:
I received the Visual Dictionary for Ep. VII yesterday. It has some good news for KotOR fans. It has a map that lists the usual systems - Tatooine, Coruscant, Yavin, Mandalore, Naboo, Korriban Moraband <_< , etc. (And the Resistance base and Starkiller base are on literally opposite ends of the galaxy, which makes me wonder just how fucking fast traveling through hyperspace is.)
It also includes Rakata Prime. Pablo Hidalgo, who wrote the book, has confirmed its canon status. The book also explains that Kylo Ren's lightsaber is an ancient dating back thousands of years to the Great Scourge of Malachor. The Clone Wars show of course included some Old Republic material (e.g. the planets Ilum and Onderon, for example). And the book Aftermath had a short scene taking place on Taris (it didn't speak of its history, and it seems to be a crappy slum planet now; at least from what's seen in the book).
I'm guessing it's mostly fan service, though.
:nerd:
Really enjoyed the movie. Just the right amount of fan service and new stuff - positively surprised with the parts featuring the "oldies".
Also, gotta say that I didn't have the same problem as some people here with "unrealistic" plot developments.
Ray kicking Kylo Ren's ass actually made sense to me - not in the "beginner's luck" sense, but because he sucks. As a Sith lord he is well above everyone around him but he is not someone who is constantly training or getting better - he is mainly brooding, trashing equipment and commanding other people to do stuff. He didn't have any peer competition for so long, he got rusty. Meanwhile, Ray is a survivor from a bad neighbourhood - of course she was going to kick his ass.
Now, I can easily imagine him becoming a badass by the second movie - he is going obsess about this failure so much.
Quote from: Jaron on January 06, 2016, 12:26:58 AM
If Obi Wan had a kid with that Mandalorian chick, she'd have to be like 50 by now.
She was trapped in a space time continuum for many years... Oops, wrong show ;)
she could have had a kid herself with someone else, including Luke.
Unless ObiWan fathered a child while in exile on Tatooine, shortly before leaving with Luke, she can't be Obi Wan's kid for sure.
No one (maybe?) is thinking she is Ben's kid, grand daughter at best.
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2016, 08:53:13 AM
As a Sith lord he is well above everyone around him
He is not a Sith Lord. He hadnt even finished his training yet. That combined with your observation that he was a moody whiner who didnt spend much time training explains why the Fremen like girl kicked his ass.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 06, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2016, 08:53:13 AM
As a Sith lord he is well above everyone around him
He is not a Sith Lord. He hadnt even finished his training yet. That combined with your observation that he was a moody whiner who didnt spend much time training explains why the Fremen like girl kicked his ass.
Yup.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 06, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2016, 08:53:13 AM
As a Sith lord he is well above everyone around him
He is not a Sith Lord. He hadnt even finished his training yet. That combined with your observation that he was a moody whiner who didnt spend much time training explains why the Fremen like girl kicked his ass.
He took a wookie blaster bolt straight in the chest.
There's like three scenes in the movie about how powerful a wookie blaster is.
It's also pretty clear during his fight with Rey that he has no interest in killing her. That's a major disadvantage when you're fighting with laser sticks that slice through solid metal doors like......a laser stick through butter.
Quote from: Queequeg on January 06, 2016, 12:16:18 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 06, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2016, 08:53:13 AM
As a Sith lord he is well above everyone around him
He is not a Sith Lord. He hadnt even finished his training yet. That combined with your observation that he was a moody whiner who didnt spend much time training explains why the Fremen like girl kicked his ass.
He took a wookie blaster bolt straight in the chest.
There's like three scenes in the movie about how powerful a wookie blaster is.
It's also pretty clear during his fight with Rey that he has no interest in killing her. That's a major disadvantage when you're fighting with laser sticks that slice through solid metal doors like......a laser stick through butter.
Taking a wookie blast can mean a lot of things other than he is a powerful force user. You are ignoring that he has not finished his training. There may be a lot of potential there but it is wasted on his tantrums and moodiness. Attributes that brought him to the dark side and perhaps once he finishes his training they will be attributes that make him strong with the dark side. But right now Rey clearly has the more powerful raw talent.
IDK. They clearly set him up as powerful, and the wookie bowcaster as extremely powerful. He's clearly in great distress.
My theory:
Snoke is Darth Plageius. Both Snoke and Luke are attempting to reform their respective orders in light of the catastrophe that was the Rise and Fall of the Empire for both.
I think Plageius/Snoke is a more complex figure than most of the previous Darths. He's introduced in Revenge of the Sith as a Sith Lord with "loved ones" and an intense emotional relationship with his mentor, the soon-to-be-Emperor. This seems more in line with, say, a Revan than a Malak or even a Sidious. The betrayal of Darth Sidious and Sidious' disastrous Empire made him rethink fundamental Sith tenants, reforming the Order as the Knights of Ren. "Ren" is the Japanese word for Compassion, and this seems to be in line with Abrams' teasing that the Dark Side think of themselves as the good guys.
Saw the movie last night. It was ridiculous but it totally worked because the characters were right. I loved baby Solo the bad guy. He is the best Sith Lord ever, he is what Anakin was supposed to be but I actually buy it.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 06, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2016, 08:53:13 AM
As a Sith lord he is well above everyone around him
He is not a Sith Lord. He hadnt even finished his training yet. That combined with your observation that he was a moody whiner who didnt spend much time training explains why the Fremen like girl kicked his ass.
I know his moody whineness is glorious. That works for bad guys so much better than good guys. And it was kind of ridiculous how the Dark Side is all about losing yourself in anger and passion when the Sith rarely displayed that in the movies...until this guy. Now that is a Sith wannabe. Loved it. When he lost his shit every time something went wrong I almost cheered. And needing his Dad's support in killing him was great. I was so worried they would kill him off in that light saber fight, I want to see more of that guy.
And Ray is a fucking badass force savant. She is so awesome she is almost more of a plot device than a character...but I thought it worked. She and that rebel pilot were almost too awesome to be real. But again I actually thought that worked fine. She better be Luke's secret daughter. Space Opera convention demands it. Don't get cute on us Abrams.
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:10:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 06, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2016, 08:53:13 AM
As a Sith lord he is well above everyone around him
He is not a Sith Lord. He hadnt even finished his training yet. That combined with your observation that he was a moody whiner who didnt spend much time training explains why the Fremen like girl kicked his ass.
I know his moody whineness is glorious. That works for bad guys so much better than good guys. And it was kind of ridiculous how the Dark Side is all about losing yourself in anger and passion when the Sith rarely displayed that in the movies...until this guy. Now that is a Sith wannabe. Loved it. When he lost his shit every time something went wrong I almost cheered. And needing his Dad's support in killing him was great. I was so worried they would kill him off in that light saber fight, I want to see more of that guy.
And Ray is a fucking badass force savant. She is so awesome she is almost more of a plot device than a character...but I thought it worked. She and that rebel pilot were almost too awesome to be real. But again I actually thought that worked fine. She better be Luke's secret daughter. Space Opera convention demands it. Don't get cute on us Abrams.
Hehe, yeah. Couldn't agree more. She is the Campbellian hero - her main "weakness" is that she doesn't want this but wants to go back to her home planet. The plot twist is that it's her, not Finn, who is the "hero" of the story.
Quote from: Jaron on January 06, 2016, 12:26:58 AM
If Obi Wan had a kid with that Mandalorian chick, she'd have to be like 50 by now.
Even older, since any sexual encounter would have had to happen when Obi was a padawan, which would make her at least 62 by TFA. The timeline of Rey being Obi's granddaughter could work, but only if Luke went for a somewhat older woman. It wouldn't work genetically, though, since Obi-wan (red hair)+Satine (blonde) would produce a red or blonde child, so Luke (blond) + Obi's daughter (blond/red) wouldn't produce dark-haired Rey. :nerd:
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:10:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 06, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2016, 08:53:13 AM
As a Sith lord he is well above everyone around him
He is not a Sith Lord. He hadnt even finished his training yet. That combined with your observation that he was a moody whiner who didnt spend much time training explains why the Fremen like girl kicked his ass.
I know his moody whineness is glorious. That works for bad guys so much better than good guys. And it was kind of ridiculous how the Dark Side is all about losing yourself in anger and passion when the Sith rarely displayed that in the movies...until this guy. Now that is a Sith wannabe. Loved it. When he lost his shit every time something went wrong I almost cheered. And needing his Dad's support in killing him was great. I was so worried they would kill him off in that light saber fight, I want to see more of that guy.
And Ray is a fucking badass force savant. She is so awesome she is almost more of a plot device than a character...but I thought it worked. She and that rebel pilot were almost too awesome to be real. But again I actually thought that worked fine. She better be Luke's secret daughter. Space Opera convention demands it. Don't get cute on us Abrams.
I agree with everything you said...
except about Rey being Luke's daughter. That's such an obvious conclusion that it better be a fucking head fake by Abrams. <_<
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:22:49 PM
except about Rey being Luke's daughter. That's such an obvious conclusion that it better be a fucking head fake by Abrams. <_<
I disagree. This is Star Wars not the Usual Suspects.
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:22:49 PM
except about Rey being Luke's daughter. That's such an obvious conclusion that it better be a fucking head fake by Abrams. <_<
I disagree. This is Star Wars not the Usual Suspects.
Snoke was Luke all along! :hmm:
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:22:49 PM
except about Rey being Luke's daughter. That's such an obvious conclusion that it better be a fucking head fake by Abrams. <_<
I disagree. This is Star Wars not the Usual Suspects.
Come on - "Luke I am your father" came out of absolutely nowhere! It was a huge shocker back in the day.
Rey is probably someone's daugher. It could be Obi-Wan, or Wedge Antilles, or Lando, or Boba Fett, or Lobot, or whomever. But I hope she's not a Skywalker.
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:35:58 PM
Come on - "Luke I am your father" came out of absolutely nowhere! It was a huge shocker back in the day.
Rey is probably someone's daugher. It could be Obi-Wan, or Wedge Antilles, or Lando, or Boba Fett, or Lobot, or whomever. But I hope she's not a Skywalker.
Of course she is a Skywalker. The whole series is about the Skywalker family. Wedge Antilles :lol: really?
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:37:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:35:58 PM
Come on - "Luke I am your father" came out of absolutely nowhere! It was a huge shocker back in the day.
Rey is probably someone's daugher. It could be Obi-Wan, or Wedge Antilles, or Lando, or Boba Fett, or Lobot, or whomever. But I hope she's not a Skywalker.
Of course she is a Skywalker. The whole series is about the Skywalker family. Wedge Antilles :lol: really?
Wedge Antilles gets a laugh, and not Lobot? :yeahright:
"Star Wars is about the Skywalker family" is what George Lucas used to say. This isn't Lucas' baby any more.
Quote from: Malthus on January 06, 2016, 01:30:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:22:49 PM
except about Rey being Luke's daughter. That's such an obvious conclusion that it better be a fucking head fake by Abrams. <_<
I disagree. This is Star Wars not the Usual Suspects.
Snoke was Luke all along! :hmm:
You know that theory is out there. :lol:
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:39:28 PM
Wedge Antilles gets a laugh, and not Lobot? :yeahright:
"Star Wars is about the Skywalker family" is what George Lucas used to say. This isn't Lucas' baby any more.
True but Abrams is a Star Wars fanboy. He will do the right thing. Finn is also somebody's son which is why he was able to resist the brainwashing that worked on 99.999999% of the other Storm Troopers.
Sorry I didn't know who Lobot was.
What does Abrams have to do with it anymore, he's one and done.
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Lobot is the dude on the right with the headgear.
Quote from: katmai on January 06, 2016, 01:42:41 PM
What does Abrams have to do with it anymore, he's one and done.
Oh he is? Who is doing episode VIII?
Quote from: katmai on January 06, 2016, 01:42:41 PM
What does Abrams have to do with it anymore, he's one and done.
:yeahright:
He's still the Executive Producer for 8 and 9.
Valmy - Rian Johnson is directing Ep 8.
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:45:23 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 06, 2016, 01:42:41 PM
What does Abrams have to do with it anymore, he's one and done.
:yeahright:
He's still the Executive Producer for 8 and 9.
Valmy - Rian Johnson is directing Ep 8.
Johnson is also the writer if i recall correctly.
Huh. I don't remember anybody ever calling him by a name in that film. It must have been hard for Lobot to raise a family after he lost his lucrative job at Cloud City. No wonder he had to abandon his only child :weep:
Quote from: katmai on January 06, 2016, 01:48:22 PMJohnson is also the writer if i recall correctly.
Was he the writer for this film as well? If so then I am alright with it. I look forward to 'The First Order Strikes Back'
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:49:36 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 06, 2016, 01:48:22 PMJohnson is also the writer if i recall correctly.
Was he the writer for this film as well? If so then I am alright with it. I look forward to 'The First Order Strikes Back'
Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan co wrote VII
Quote from: katmai on January 06, 2016, 01:48:22 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:45:23 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 06, 2016, 01:42:41 PM
What does Abrams have to do with it anymore, he's one and done.
:yeahright:
He's still the Executive Producer for 8 and 9.
Valmy - Rian Johnson is directing Ep 8.
Johnson is also the writer if i recall correctly.
That's what IMDB says.
But surely they've laid out the broad brushes of where this story is going to go, right? Or is that asking too much from the man who brought us Lost. :(
Quote from: katmai on January 06, 2016, 01:52:39 PM
Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan co wrote VII
Well then color me confused. I hope he does a decent job with that opening scene on the Ice Planet.
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:39:28 PM
Quote from: Malthus on January 06, 2016, 01:30:35 PM
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:29:12 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:22:49 PM
except about Rey being Luke's daughter. That's such an obvious conclusion that it better be a fucking head fake by Abrams. <_<
I disagree. This is Star Wars not the Usual Suspects.
Snoke was Luke all along! :hmm:
You know that theory is out there. :lol:
It's obvious once you think about it!
- Han Solo Jr.? Who just happens to 'turn to the dark side'? And who is now "Snoke"'s loyal follower? Who trained him in the force? Luke!
- You never actually see "Snoke". Just a hologram projection. That could be anyone from anywhere.
- Luke's "disappearance" may be when his GF found him transmitting as "Snoke". She flees, drops their kid off at a nearby planet, Luke kills her. Luke makes himself scarce in case anything incriminating turned up, leaving his faithful pupil - Han Solo Jr. - to carry on his "work".
- This explains why Luke was glaring at Rey when she turned up. He was all "WTF do you know about me?"
- The First Order wasn't really hunting Luke. They were hunting anyone who knew shit about Luke, to keep his secret. That's why they killed everyone in that little village.
:D
Sounds reasonable. :P
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2016, 02:33:43 AM
I received the Visual Dictionary for Ep. VII yesterday. It has some good news for KotOR fans. It has a map that lists the usual systems - Tatooine, Coruscant, Yavin, Mandalore, Naboo, Korriban Moraband <_< , etc. (And the Resistance base and Starkiller base are on literally opposite ends of the galaxy, which makes me wonder just how fucking fast traveling through hyperspace is.)
It also includes Rakata Prime. Pablo Hidalgo, who wrote the book, has confirmed its canon status. The book also explains that Kylo Ren's lightsaber is an ancient dating back thousands of years to the Great Scourge of Malachor. The Clone Wars show of course included some Old Republic material (e.g. the planets Ilum and Onderon, for example). And the book Aftermath had a short scene taking place on Taris (it didn't speak of its history, and it seems to be a crappy slum planet now; at least from what's seen in the book).
I'm guessing it's mostly fan service, though.
:nerd:
there was a moment in the movie where I could not be think: this is reference to KOTOR.
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:10:48 PM
Don't get cute on us Abrams.
he's not involved in anything Star Wars for the foreseeable future, so it shouldn't be a problem ;)
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2016, 02:05:58 PM
Sounds reasonable. :P
Search your heart, you know it to be true. ;)
It also fits with the general "mirror-ing" of the new movies: in the first set, the big twist was that Luke found out his dad was, and that it was Darth Vader - that is, the good guy finds out his dad is the Big Bad.
In the second set, the big twist is that the new heroine - Rey - not only finds out her dad is Luke, but that he's really the Big Bad.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 06, 2016, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2016, 02:33:43 AM
I received the Visual Dictionary for Ep. VII yesterday. It has some good news for KotOR fans. It has a map that lists the usual systems - Tatooine, Coruscant, Yavin, Mandalore, Naboo, Korriban Moraband <_< , etc. (And the Resistance base and Starkiller base are on literally opposite ends of the galaxy, which makes me wonder just how fucking fast traveling through hyperspace is.)
It also includes Rakata Prime. Pablo Hidalgo, who wrote the book, has confirmed its canon status. The book also explains that Kylo Ren's lightsaber is an ancient dating back thousands of years to the Great Scourge of Malachor. The Clone Wars show of course included some Old Republic material (e.g. the planets Ilum and Onderon, for example). And the book Aftermath had a short scene taking place on Taris (it didn't speak of its history, and it seems to be a crappy slum planet now; at least from what's seen in the book).
I'm guessing it's mostly fan service, though.
:nerd:
there was a moment in the movie where I could not be think: this is reference to KOTOR.
Kylo Ren's appearance blatantly draws from Revan, imho.
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:39:28 PM
You know that theory is out there. :lol:
there are theories everywhere.
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:49:36 PM
I look forward to 'The First Order Strikes Back'
More the "Republic Strikes Back" after the destruction of their rotating capital.
Given there was lots of pacifists and pro First Order Senators preventing full on war between the biggest military machine in the galaxy and the Empire's offshoot wannabes, it could be interesting. The Republic marches to war, crush all resistance mercilessly, hunts down all Stormtroopers with Phasma being the last remnant of a dying order.
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:53:52 PM
But surely they've laid out the broad brushes of where this story is going to go, right? Or is that asking too much from the man who brought us Lost. :(
isn't "Executive producer" more of an honorary title, something you negotiate to get a piece of the money a movie/tv show will generate while not actually being involved in its creation?
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:54:12 PM
Quote from: katmai on January 06, 2016, 01:52:39 PM
Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan co wrote VII
Well then color me confused. I hope he does a decent job with that opening scene on the Ice Planet.
I can imagine the scene: a fleet of Star Destroyer entering hyperspace just as the text finishes rolling. An angry Kylo Ren receiving report that there's now a powerful shield above the 6th planet in the sector proceeds to trash his console immediatly after ordering an invasion. Once on the ground, they realize it's a decoy, just as the planet explodes, killing everyone on it, then a fleet of NNR ships (New New Republic) comes out of hyperspace with a few interdictor cruisers, trap the Imperials, bombard the shocked survivors into oblivion before disapearing once again into the far depts of space.
Quote from: celedhring on January 06, 2016, 02:14:28 PM
Kylo Ren's appearance blatantly draws from Revan, imho.
Would go with the Old Republic inspired light saber.
Quote from: celedhring on January 06, 2016, 02:14:28 PM
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 06, 2016, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2016, 02:33:43 AM
I received the Visual Dictionary for Ep. VII yesterday. It has some good news for KotOR fans. It has a map that lists the usual systems - Tatooine, Coruscant, Yavin, Mandalore, Naboo, Korriban Moraband <_< , etc. (And the Resistance base and Starkiller base are on literally opposite ends of the galaxy, which makes me wonder just how fucking fast traveling through hyperspace is.)
It also includes Rakata Prime. Pablo Hidalgo, who wrote the book, has confirmed its canon status. The book also explains that Kylo Ren's lightsaber is an ancient dating back thousands of years to the Great Scourge of Malachor. The Clone Wars show of course included some Old Republic material (e.g. the planets Ilum and Onderon, for example). And the book Aftermath had a short scene taking place on Taris (it didn't speak of its history, and it seems to be a crappy slum planet now; at least from what's seen in the book).
I'm guessing it's mostly fan service, though.
:nerd:
there was a moment in the movie where I could not be think: this is reference to KOTOR.
Kylo Ren's appearance blatantly draws from Revan, imho.
that too, indeed. Very much indeed. The reference was something spoken though, iirc. Can't quite remember what it was however.
Quote from: Crazy_Ivan80 on January 06, 2016, 02:45:26 PM
that too, indeed. Very much indeed. The reference was something spoken though, iirc. Can't quite remember what it was however.
Dude...don't do this to me.
Gay romance between Finn and Poe incoming.
Star Wars Bad Lip Reading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w8Z0UOXVaY
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2016, 03:04:08 PM
Star Wars Bad Lip Reading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w8Z0UOXVaY
That's really well done. :lol:
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2016, 03:04:08 PM
Star Wars Bad Lip Reading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w8Z0UOXVaY
It is crazy how talented some of these internet spoof artists are.
Ep. V & VI are also good, but they really shine in Redneck Avengers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOQnk-hRVuc
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 03:21:08 PM
Quote from: Syt on January 06, 2016, 03:04:08 PM
Star Wars Bad Lip Reading: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1w8Z0UOXVaY
It is crazy how talented some of these internet spoof artists are.
Are these the same guys that did that Got parody a while back?
Also, Bushes of Love is possibly my new favourite song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RySHDUU2juM
Quote from: Valmy on January 06, 2016, 01:10:48 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 06, 2016, 11:47:24 AM
Quote from: Martinus on January 06, 2016, 08:53:13 AM
As a Sith lord he is well above everyone around him
He is not a Sith Lord. He hadnt even finished his training yet. That combined with your observation that he was a moody whiner who didnt spend much time training explains why the Fremen like girl kicked his ass.
I know his moody whineness is glorious. That works for bad guys so much better than good guys. And it was kind of ridiculous how the Dark Side is all about losing yourself in anger and passion when the Sith rarely displayed that in the movies...until this guy. Now that is a Sith wannabe. Loved it. When he lost his shit every time something went wrong I almost cheered. And needing his Dad's support in killing him was great. I was so worried they would kill him off in that light saber fight, I want to see more of that guy.
And Ray is a fucking badass force savant. She is so awesome she is almost more of a plot device than a character...but I thought it worked. She and that rebel pilot were almost too awesome to be real. But again I actually thought that worked fine. She better be Luke's secret daughter. Space Opera convention demands it. Don't get cute on us Abrams.
:yes:
I finally saw it, on a cam recorded torrent since I couldn't muster enough enthusiasm to suffer crowds in a public venue.
I pretty much agree with Delirium's assessment: derivative and over indulging in self-references.
As for specifics, I'll simply reply to Tyr.
Quote from: Tyr on December 29, 2015, 03:38:21 PM
...
Who is the wee monster lady? Hmm.
...
Obviously a cash-in on Yoda. I'm guessing we'll be seeing more of her in the next installments. More nostalgia wallowing *shakes head*.
Quote
Leia...just me or did she used to have a posh accent?
I don't recall the accent but I sure can see how the tales of Fisher's years of substance abuse were true: she looks ancient and worn out, even under all the set makeup!
Quote
Amusing that the main villain is an angsty teen.
Strangely, in the bad recording I saw, he looked super cute and made me think of a young Snapes in Harry Potter. I googled him afterwards and he's actually not that cute - mid 30s I'd say - and sporting a beard most of the time. Thank all the gods there are it's not one of those horrid full bush beards young men seem to fancy so much recently. My guess is it's motivated by some subconscious desire to not look so weak when compared to the 'romantic' jihadis who are constantly all over the news...
Quote
I don't quite get the first order and the resistance. How come the Republic can't fight these new empire guys themselves? Why do they need to go straight to being a rebellion?
If I had to guess I'd say Abrams promised his handlers to deliver a cash cow - hence all the derivative stuff - and we'll see his *real* movie with the next one. He'll have been - hell he already is - successful - so he'll be allowed to craft his own vision moving forward.
Quote
Very nice ending with Luke actually being shown. Feels more satisfying than what it seemed they were going to do and have a big long boring setup for the next film "the search for luke".
Much gravitas in that last scene - my favorite in fact. I would say Luke looked somewhat... upset to see the girl - and the saber she carries... Perhaps Malthus was right about his own tongue-in-cheek speculation; him becoming mastermind of the dark side would certainly be an interesting twist. We shall see if Disney allows *that*.
As for the future, my one hope is to have Luke or someone else make some abrasive cynical comment about 'how could this 'First Order' ever gain momentum following someone named 'Snoke'? It belongs in a circus - not at the helm of a fearsome galaxy spanning organization. But then again, if Malthus is right, it could be more smokescreen - both the name and the offhand remark...
So overall, and while I will try to find a 1080 copy of it in order to re-watch it with better sound *and* to avoid the above mentioned fanboy crowds, I'd say it's a middle of the road movie. It accomplishes what it set out to do - revamp a franchise damaged by its hubris-mad creator by stroking every SW fan's wallet - but there's nothing original there. The next film is the one to watch; if it's more of the same I'll lose interest completely. I suspect the man will take liberties with number 8 - and we'll see if they turn out to be happy ones. Does anyone know if there's a time frame for the next release?
G.
Well yeah Grallon we all expected it to be derivative. But, as I said, that's alright. Keep it simple.
QuoteStrangely, in the bad recording I saw, he looked super cute and made me think of a young Snapes in Harry Potter. I googled him afterwards and he's actually not that cute - mid 30s I'd say - and sporting a beard most of the time. Thank all the gods there are it's not one of those horrid full bush beards young men seem to fancy so much recently. My guess is it's motivated by some subconscious desire to not look so weak when compared to the 'romantic' jihadis who are constantly all over the news...
I had never heard that one before. Your obsession with Islam is getting a bit ridiculous.
QuoteMuch gravitas in that last scene - my favorite in fact. I would say Luke looked somewhat... upset to see the girl - and the saber she carries... Perhaps Malthus was right about his own tongue-in-cheek speculation; him becoming mastermind of the dark side would certainly be an interesting twist. We shall see if Disney allows *that*.
As for the future, my one hope is to have Luke or someone else make some abrasive cynical comment about 'how could this 'First Order' ever gain momentum following someone named 'Snoke'? It belongs in a circus - not at the helm of a fearsome galaxy spanning organization. But then again, if Malthus is right, it could be more smokescreen - both the name and the offhand remark...
:lol: You have got to be kidding. And no cynicism like that in Star Wars would be lame as hell.
I am shocked that grallon is not attracted to a guy who is only several years his junior (but not enough to be his son) and shows signs of being past puberty. :lol:
That being said, the movie was definitely not packed with male hotness - personally, I felt General Hux was the closest to my usual type.
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 01:13:21 AM
That being said, the movie was definitely not packed with male hotness - personally, I felt General Hux was the closest to my usual type.
What about the negro?
Quote from: Martinus on January 07, 2016, 01:13:21 AM
That being said, the movie was definitely not packed with male hotness - personally, I felt General Hux was the closest to my usual type.
Not female hotness either, Daisy Ridley is merely cute by Hollywood standards. Definitely not a hot cast.
She is perfect nerd bait. She's not hot enough that she wouldn't give the time of day to the legion of neck bearded star wars nerds. She's pretty enough to be eye candy, but ordinary enough looking that SW geeks can day dream of meeting her at the local arcade and having a wookiee themed wedding.
I've watched a few interviews with John Boyega. He seems like a funny, but very grounded and humble guy. I hope he stays that way. :)
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In only 20 days Episode VII has dismantled Avatar's all time U.S. revenue record (Avatar needed 7 months for that). :lol:
Quote from: Syt on January 07, 2016, 09:08:00 AM
In only 20 days Episode VII has dismantled Avatar's all time U.S. revenue record (Avatar needed 7 months for that). :lol:
Wow, they did go all out on advertisements but that's just insane. At least it's a better movie than Avatar so there's that.
http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/01/star-wars-box-office-record
QuoteStar Wars: The Force Awakens has made more than $761 million at the domestic box office, not only besting Avatar to become the highest-grossing film of all time, but doing so at an astonishing pace. It took Avatar 34 weeks in theaters, plus a "special edition" re-release, to make the old record of $760.5 million; The Force Awakens did it in just 20 days, and some forecasters now expect it to cross the billion mark at home before all is said and done.
Worldwide, the record is within sight as well; Avatar remains the champion by a large margin, with $2.788 billion compared to The Force Awakens's $1.55, but time is on the side of J.J Abrams and company. The next global titan to beat will be The Avengers, and from there the newest Star Wars film has to get past one recent blockbuster (Jurassic World) and two James Cameron behemoths (Avatar and Titanic) to take its place as king of the world/galaxy.
It has a long, long way to go, though, before besting a very sentimental record: the domestic box office of the original Star Wars, adjusted for inflation. Studios don't like doing this, because it's much more fun to proclaim your film the biggest of all time, but the actual all-time record holder remains Gone With the Wind, which made a staggering $1.7 billion in American theaters alone. The second-place finisher when you make the inflation adjustment? Star Wars: A New Hope, with a gigantic $1.53 billion.
There's no saying The Force Awakens won't get there—and in doing so, would be the first film since Titanic to crack the top 10. At the rate it's going, no record seems beyond its galactic grasp.
UPDATE, 8:30 a.m.: Below a list, compiled by Disney, of all of the various domestic box office records The Force Awakens has broken thus far.
Fastest film to reach $100M (21 hours), $200M (3 days), $300M (5 days), $400M (8 days), $500M (10 days), $600M (12 days), and $700M (16 days)
Biggest all-time debut and biggest December debut ($247.966M), propelling the industry to the biggest overall moviegoing weekend of all time ($313.3M for all films, Dec. 18-20)
Biggest second weekend of all time ($149.2M), propelling the industry to the biggest overall Christmas weekend of all time ($296.4M for all films, Dec. 25-27)
Biggest third weekend of all time ($90.2M)
Biggest Thursday preview gross ($57M)
Biggest Friday, opening, and single day ($119.1M)
Biggest Sunday ($60.55M), Monday ($40.1M), and Tuesday ($37.3M)
Biggest Christmas Day ($49.3M) and New Year's Day ($34.39M)
Highest per-theater average for a wide debut ($59,982)
Biggest opening week ($390.85M)
Biggest IMAX debut ($30.1M)
Also, I didn't know that Jurassic World made so much money. :hmm:
Wow, that's a lot of $.
Quote from: Liep on January 07, 2016, 09:11:28 AM
Quote from: Syt on January 07, 2016, 09:08:00 AM
In only 20 days Episode VII has dismantled Avatar's all time U.S. revenue record (Avatar needed 7 months for that). :lol:
Wow, they did go all out on advertisements but that's just insane. At least it's a better movie than Avatar so there's that.
I read an article about Avatar the other day basically saying how strange it is that such an extremely profitable movie has left barely no mark whatsoever on pop culture in the long run. They blamed Cameron for taking so long to do the announced sequels.
Considering the hype and fandom it briefly had it's indeed a bit surprising. I thought at the time that it created a fan response (and fanatacism) similar to what Star Wars (with people being depressed that they couldn't live there) had done, but then it quietly disappeared.
Quote from: Syt on January 07, 2016, 10:43:48 AM
Considering the hype and fandom it briefly had it's indeed a bit surprising. I thought at the time that it created a fan response (and fanatacism) similar to what Star Wars (with people being depressed that they couldn't live there) had done, but then it quietly disappeared.
It definitely ushered the era of 3d, gotta give Cameron that.
True, but it seems to be its only lasting impact for now. I mean, do you remember the names of the characters? I sure don't.
Quote from: Syt on January 07, 2016, 11:04:39 AM
True, but it seems to be its only lasting impact for now. I mean, do you remember the names of the characters? I sure don't.
I just check the development of the sequels and apparently they're scheduled for Christmas 2017 and 2018 (they had been originally scheduled for 2016 and 2017, but were pushed back one year ago). I'm a bit unsure if there's another one scheduled for 2019, as they talk about a trilogy, but I don't know if they're already taking into account the original one from 2009.
Quote from: Syt on January 07, 2016, 11:04:39 AM
True, but it seems to be its only lasting impact for now. I mean, do you remember the names of the characters? I sure don't.
I remember their names: naked blue people and the crippled marine.
Does anyone actually want to see a sequel? I'm not planning on it at least.
Quote from: Liep on January 07, 2016, 11:26:11 AM
Does anyone actually want to see a sequel? I'm not planning on it at least.
When it comes on Blu-Ray and I can rent it for 4,50$? Why not :)
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Ewan-McGregor-Being-Courted-Obi-Wan-Kenobi-Trilogy-71818.html
QuoteEwan McGregor Being Courted For A New Obi-Wan Kenobi Trilogy
Since Disney bought out Lucasfilm back in 2012 and announced they were expanding the Star Wars universe far beyond anything we've ever seen, there has been a constant stream of rumors and speculation about what we might see in the future. One that just won't go away is a potential trilogy based on legendary Jedi Obi-Wan Kenobi, and those rumors just got another boost.
There's been a lot of talk about the standalone spinoff movies lately, but while those are concrete, the idea of an Obi-Wan-centric series of movies has been more nebulous. Ewan McGregor is reportedly in talks with Disney for an unknown project, but according to Schmoes Know's sources, the discussions are specifically about him reprising his role as the venerable Jedi Knight. This is all super unconfirmed and unofficial in every way, so be sure to take it with a huge grain of salt, but it is an interesting proposition to consider.
It's possible he could show up as a Force ghost, popping in to advise Luke Skywalker on some important matter or another, but according to the source that's not the case and he's being recruited: not to be a force ghost, but for a post-Episode III Kenobi.
And again, they go on to mention the possibility that an entire Obi-Wan trilogy could be in the works. The Jedi is obviously a hugely important figure in the overall Star Wars mythology, and McGregor's performance, taking over the role from Alec Guinness, is one of the high points of the much-maligned prequel trilogy. So maybe this isn't actually as crazy as it initially sounds.
Should this come to pass, it appears it would exist outside of the Episode movies, like Star Wars: The Force Awakens, as well as the Anthology films, like Gareth Edwards' Rogue One. Especially as the latter films sound like they focusing on elements of the universe that aren't directly related to the Jedi and the Force.
There is definitely a lot of ground that could be explored, and many stories that fall into this general timeframe. Revenge of the Sith ends with Obi-Wan delivering an infant Luke to Owen and Beru on Tatooine, and we don't see him again until Luke is a teen. For a man on a mission, you know there are some awesome stories in these years.
A trilogy of films like this could serve to fill in some knowledge gaps in the franchise, which is something many of the new Star Wars properties seek to accomplish, as well as give fans more from one of their favorite characters. The post-Sith, pre-A New Hope era is also territory currently being covered by the animated Star Wars Rebels, where Obi-Wan has popped up, and we know that this is a time of great turmoil, strife, and change in that far away galaxy. If that doesn't have the makings of a potentially great story, what does?
That could be interesting. Ewan McGregor's Obi-Wan was one of the few highlights of the prequels
I could go for that, McGregor's Obi Wan deserves to be in a decent Star Wars story. Not a trilogy though.
Quote from: Barrister on January 06, 2016, 01:43:49 PM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.starwarsuncut.com%2Fassets%2Ffilm_2%2Fhd%2F400.jpg&hash=e4d1dba23b6f9a0ef736c4775bd44f6d4ad80ce7)
Lobot is the dude on the right with the headgear.
I always got a Robert Duvall vibe from that dude.
How come he wasn't issued a moustache, like the rest of Lando's guys? Grandfathered in?
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 07, 2016, 04:51:21 PM
How come he wasn't issued a moustache, like the rest of Lando's guys? Grandfathered in?
Lobot has no hair whatsoever - not even any eyebrows. Yet you focus in on his base lip?
Quote from: Barrister on January 07, 2016, 04:54:48 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 07, 2016, 04:51:21 PM
How come he wasn't issued a moustache, like the rest of Lando's guys? Grandfathered in?
Lobot has no hair whatsoever - not even any eyebrows. Yet you focus in on his base lip?
How do you know he has NO hair, anywhere?
Quote from: celedhring on January 07, 2016, 04:07:58 PM
I could go for that, McGregor's Obi Wan deserves to be in a decent Star Wars story. Not a trilogy though.
I dunno - I'm kind of not interested in prequels. We know how the story ends up! That goes for the Rogue One as well.
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 07, 2016, 04:57:25 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 07, 2016, 04:54:48 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 07, 2016, 04:51:21 PM
How come he wasn't issued a moustache, like the rest of Lando's guys? Grandfathered in?
Lobot has no hair whatsoever - not even any eyebrows. Yet you focus in on his base lip?
How do you know he has NO hair, anywhere?
:ph34r:
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 07, 2016, 04:57:25 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 07, 2016, 04:54:48 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 07, 2016, 04:51:21 PM
How come he wasn't issued a moustache, like the rest of Lando's guys? Grandfathered in?
Lobot has no hair whatsoever - not even any eyebrows. Yet you focus in on his base lip?
How do you know he has NO hair, anywhere?
Rule 34!
Quote from: lustindarkness on January 07, 2016, 04:57:25 PM
Quote from: Barrister on January 07, 2016, 04:54:48 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on January 07, 2016, 04:51:21 PM
How come he wasn't issued a moustache, like the rest of Lando's guys? Grandfathered in?
Lobot has no hair whatsoever - not even any eyebrows. Yet you focus in on his base lip?
How do you know he has NO hair, anywhere?
Star Wars can be blamed for a number of subsequent trends.
Another theory that's out there: Kylo Ren joined the Dark Side in order to destroy it from within. "I will finish what you started" would mean "bring balance to the Force" or "destroy the Dark Side." His lure to the light side would be because he knows he has to embrace the dark side in order to pull this off, but is afraid of it. And it would put a different spin on his killing his father, making Solo's death the ultimate sacrifice to ensure the Dark Side will be defeated.
It's pretty tenuous and I think some scenes contradict it, but it would be an interesting arc for him.
Has there been any leaks yet about Kylo Stimpy? I guess he's in Ep 8.
Quote from: Syt on January 09, 2016, 03:09:54 AM
It's pretty tenuous and I think some scenes contradict it, but it would be an interesting arc for him.
too tenuous for a SW or Disney movie ;)
Quote from: Syt on January 09, 2016, 03:09:54 AM
Another theory that's out there: Kylo Ren joined the Dark Side in order to destroy it from within. "I will finish what you started" would mean "bring balance to the Force" or "destroy the Dark Side." His lure to the light side would be because he knows he has to embrace the dark side in order to pull this off, but is afraid of it. And it would put a different spin on his killing his father, making Solo's death the ultimate sacrifice to ensure the Dark Side will be defeated.
It's pretty tenuous and I think some scenes contradict it, but it would be an interesting arc for him.
It seems fairly obvious that Ren will eventually come to the Light Side in a cathartic moment much like his Grandfather. But I am not sure how the whiny insecure Ren now has that as his plan.
If he is redeemed, it would be seconds before his death by Rey. I can't see them repeating VI all over again. Even Disney has more imagination than that.
Quote from: viper37 on January 09, 2016, 03:13:10 PM
If he is redeemed, it would be seconds before his death by Rey.
Because she will have gone to the dark side by then.
That would be cool. :cool:
just saw it.
Brilliant.
Yeah, it paraellels the original film a lot, but still thought it was enjoyable.
Shame about Han, really Ford is the only of the Big Original Three who could act.
One thing, I'm pretty sure the chick is Luke's daughter. She has all the good Force/Jedi abilities without training already. The Old Lady said Luke's saber was drawn to her or somesuch.
I thought Han's son was a bit weak. He could barely contain a Storm Trooper in battle, and the chick gave him the fight of his life. He should have killed them both with ease.
Quote from: Josephus on January 09, 2016, 05:55:06 PM
I thought Han's son was a bit weak. He could barely contain a Storm Trooper in battle, and the chick gave him the fight of his life. He should have killed them both with ease.
he was injured, and his goal was to capture her, not kill her.
Kylo Ren must have some impressive neck and shoulder muscles because they make it look like that helmet weighs a lot.
Saw it yesterday. Really liked it despite some caveats.
Caveats: Uber Death Star was way over the top and felt tacked on. Kerry Fisher should be dropped. If she can't care to act at least on her 70s level, she can go and don't give a damn without the salary. Mark Hamill acted twice as much in that one moment of looking rugged into the camera than she did the whole movie, and having Hamill and "acting" in the same sentence is quite something.
I wasn't particularly impressed with Harrison Ford either.
But I guess the best you can hope for from this movie is what happened to me: I'd be happy to see the old cast sidelined/dropped and see what happens to the new ones.
As for Kylo Ren, I believe him being a relative weakling was the main point and what probably impressed me most about the story: based on trailers and his initial schenangians he seemed to be just Vader Mark 2 which would have fitted in the fan-servicy feel of the movie.
But instead he turns out to be this troubled young lad who is trying desperately to fit into some pretty huge shoes he chose for himself, and failing more than not.
Quote from: Josephus on January 09, 2016, 05:55:06 PM
I thought Han's son was a bit weak. He could barely contain a Storm Trooper in battle, and the chick gave him the fight of his life. He should have killed them both with ease.
That is because he is still weak. he still needs to finish his training.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 10, 2016, 10:23:45 AM
Quote from: Josephus on January 09, 2016, 05:55:06 PM
I thought Han's son was a bit weak. He could barely contain a Storm Trooper in battle, and the chick gave him the fight of his life. He should have killed them both with ease.
That is because he is still weak. he still needs to finish his training.
He had more trainng than Rey and Finn combined
He was wounded and of unsound mind. I think it's fine.
Quote from: Josephus on January 10, 2016, 04:20:49 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 10, 2016, 10:23:45 AM
Quote from: Josephus on January 09, 2016, 05:55:06 PM
I thought Han's son was a bit weak. He could barely contain a Storm Trooper in battle, and the chick gave him the fight of his life. He should have killed them both with ease.
That is because he is still weak. he still needs to finish his training.
He had more trainng than Rey and Finn combined
You don't know how much training either Rey or Finn has had...
We can assume not much, especially with saber rattling.
Yeah but Finn is a trained soldier, obviously. I'm sure that includes hand-to-hand.
Hey, did the original stormtrooper laser rifles look like Christmas edition AR-15s, or is that new?
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 10, 2016, 10:03:14 PM
Hey, did the original stormtrooper laser rifles look like Christmas edition AR-15s, or is that new?
this is what they looked like in 1977.
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.propstore.com%2Fcontent%2Fblaster%2Fblaster1.jpg&hash=7eddaa804627e014f6c05cc9e99eb7f407a0a217)
Quote from: Josephus on January 10, 2016, 07:57:27 PM
We can assume not much, especially with saber rattling.
Based on the fight between Finn and the other storm trooper (who pulled out a melee weapon) I think we can assume that storm troopers receive training with melee weapons. Also, based on Ren's inability to deal with frustration, I think we can assume he has not been particularly committed to his training.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 11, 2016, 10:53:02 AM
Quote from: Josephus on January 10, 2016, 07:57:27 PM
We can assume not much, especially with saber rattling.
Based on the fight between Finn and the other storm trooper (who pulled out a melee weapon) I think we can assume that storm troopers receive training with melee weapons. Also, based on Ren's inability to deal with frustration, I think we can assume he has not been particularly committed to his training.
We do know he kicks ass when up against consoles and chairs though.
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 11, 2016, 10:53:02 AM
Based on the fight between Finn and the other storm trooper (who pulled out a melee weapon) I think we can assume that storm troopers receive training with melee weapons.
There's a tie in book with stories about Finn, Rey, and Poe that take place before the movie that depicts them actually training melee combat with those batons. Fans found that the way he shouts "TRAITOR!" seemed very personal and nicknamed the stormtrooper TR-8R. Disney meanwhile have said that he's FN-2199 a buddy of Finn's with whom he trained in the story.
Watched it again, with a friend, his kids, and mine; it holds up. :)
Just for a refresher, we watched Return of the Jedi before it. It was a Star Wars Sunday. :D
We all agreed that the new movie was better than RoTJ. Jabba the Hutt was great (particularly that little laughing parasite creature!), but the Ewoks were just so wrong - the kids were all groaning in places at that sequence (just how menacing can the Empire's Troops be if they can be taken down by primitive teddy bears? No wonder the Empire fell :hmm: ). In the new movie, the kids were riveted to their seats the whole time. Not a single groanworthy spot. ;)
Some of the sequences were just breathtaking - particular favorite: the downed wreckage on that desert planet.
Bad guy armor still seems utterly pointless, though.
:yes:
Quote from: Syt on January 11, 2016, 11:04:07 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on January 11, 2016, 10:53:02 AM
Based on the fight between Finn and the other storm trooper (who pulled out a melee weapon) I think we can assume that storm troopers receive training with melee weapons.
There's a tie in book with stories about Finn, Rey, and Poe that take place before the movie that depicts them actually training melee combat with those batons. Fans found that the way he shouts "TRAITOR!" seemed very personal and nicknamed the stormtrooper TR-8R. Disney meanwhile have said that he's FN-2199 a buddy of Finn's with whom he trained in the story.
We know Rey is good at it, because we are shown in the movie her beating up a couple of mooks with her staff - and indeed, taking down Finn. ;)
I wonder what led to Finn being moved from sanitation into villager slaughter; strikes me that would be pretty high up on the ranking of storm trooper jobs, whilst sanitation. ....less so
Maybe it's part of the rotation?
Sanitation => Genocide => TIE-Fighter Maintenance => Kitchen Duty => Street Patrols => repairing chicken soup dispensers etc.
Quote from: Syt on January 11, 2016, 11:23:09 AM
repairing chicken soup dispensers
I see what you did there :cool:
Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2016, 11:04:27 AM
Bad guy armor still seems utterly pointless, though.
Rylo Ken's armor seems pretty awesome, actually. I mean, he took a wookie blaster bolt to the side and kept on going...
Quote from: Berkut on January 11, 2016, 11:34:37 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2016, 11:04:27 AM
Bad guy armor still seems utterly pointless, though.
Rylo Ken's armor seems pretty awesome, actually. I mean, he took a wookie blaster bolt to the side and kept on going...
I was thinking more of the low-level stormtroopers. ;)
Hell, in RoTJ, the armor doesn't help them against teddy bears throwing rocks and shooting arrows, much less "modern" blasters etc.
In the new movie, no teddy bears, but lots of blasters and the like - it doesn't seem to do shit against them. Why bother wearing it?
Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2016, 11:37:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 11, 2016, 11:34:37 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2016, 11:04:27 AM
Bad guy armor still seems utterly pointless, though.
Rylo Ken's armor seems pretty awesome, actually. I mean, he took a wookie blaster bolt to the side and kept on going...
I was thinking more of the low-level stormtroopers. ;)
Hell, in RoTJ, the armor doesn't help them against teddy bears throwing rocks and shooting arrows, much less "modern" blasters etc.
In the new movie, no teddy bears, but lots of blasters and the like - it doesn't seem to do shit against them. Why bother wearing it?
I actually liked how the first scene of the movie is the first time I can ever recall Stormtroopers being competent at performing their mission.
Although really after that they went back to incompetent - you're trying to capture a droid, a girl, and a renegade trooper. Why go in with tie fighters blasting everything? Why not just calmly surround the location (Maz'a cantina, or the village at Jakuu) and then start questioning people?
Quote from: Barrister on January 11, 2016, 11:51:26 AM
Although really after that they went back to incompetent - you're trying to capture a droid, a girl, and a renegade trooper. Why go in with tie fighters blasting everything? Why not just calmly surround the location (Maz'a cantina, or the village at Jakuu) and then start questioning people?
They read the script? :unsure:
:P
The film has way too many contrivances to keep the story moving forward, sadly.
Imperial ground troops are also pretty competent in Hoth, I'd say. Although the navy's mistakes (Admiral Ozzel), cost them an overwhelming victory.
Quote from: Barrister on January 11, 2016, 11:51:26 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2016, 11:37:58 AM
Quote from: Berkut on January 11, 2016, 11:34:37 AM
Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2016, 11:04:27 AM
Bad guy armor still seems utterly pointless, though.
Rylo Ken's armor seems pretty awesome, actually. I mean, he took a wookie blaster bolt to the side and kept on going...
I was thinking more of the low-level stormtroopers. ;)
Hell, in RoTJ, the armor doesn't help them against teddy bears throwing rocks and shooting arrows, much less "modern" blasters etc.
In the new movie, no teddy bears, but lots of blasters and the like - it doesn't seem to do shit against them. Why bother wearing it?
I actually liked how the first scene of the movie is the first time I can ever recall Stormtroopers being competent at performing their mission.
Although really after that they went back to incompetent - you're trying to capture a droid, a girl, and a renegade trooper. Why go in with tie fighters blasting everything? Why not just calmly surround the location (Maz'a cantina, or the village at Jakuu) and then start questioning people?
On re-watching, that actually sorta made sense - that first order general dude is shown wanting to destroy the droid and its info, not capture it - while Ren wants it captured. There seems to be a bit of cross-purposes at work here - the general may not want the droid etc. captured, but rather "killed in action", but doesn't want to flagrantly disobey; so issues 'shoot on sight' orders, with the idea of claiming afterwards the killings were necessary.
My mother in law finally went yesterday to watch it, she had somehow not spoiled it for herself and had no idea Han dies. My daughter tells me she was more watching her grandmother's reaction than the screen and said it was just awesome. :D
I didn't know Han died when I watched it. Good job Languish!
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 10, 2016, 08:50:57 PM
Yeah but Finn is a trained soldier, obviously. I'm sure that includes hand-to-hand.
he spent most of his time in sanitation. ;)
Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2016, 11:04:27 AM
Watched it again, with a friend, his kids, and mine; it holds up. :)
Just for a refresher, we watched Return of the Jedi before it. It was a Star Wars Sunday. :D
We all agreed that the new movie was better than RoTJ. Jabba the Hutt was great (particularly that little laughing parasite creature!), but the Ewoks were just so wrong - the kids were all groaning in places at that sequence (just how menacing can the Empire's Troops be if they can be taken down by primitive teddy bears? No wonder the Empire fell :hmm: ). In the new movie, the kids were riveted to their seats the whole time. Not a single groanworthy spot. ;)
Some of the sequences were just breathtaking - particular favorite: the downed wreckage on that desert planet.
Bad guy armor still seems utterly pointless, though.
Oh yeah, I've no doubt that this one will rate highly overall. It was more or less end-to-end action, no annoying creatues like the Ewoks or Jar Jar, no complicated blockade plot line, while it hinted at a blossoming romance, it didn't play that up at all, and it played up the nostalgia angle fine, but was entertaining throughout even for newbies. We can argue how the plot was more or less the same as A New Hope, but that didn't take away the enjoyment. Hey, I watched it the first time knowing Han was doomed and still enjoyed it. I'd rate this up there with A New Hope.
Quote from: Josephus on January 11, 2016, 12:24:41 PM
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on January 10, 2016, 08:50:57 PM
Yeah but Finn is a trained soldier, obviously. I'm sure that includes hand-to-hand.
he spent most of his time in sanitation. ;)
Every Marine a Rifleman. I assume the same applies to stormtroopers. :P
I gotta say - I LIKE the Ewoks! :mad:
Maybe because I remember seeing the movie as a kid in the theatre, but the idea of assymetrical warfare is surely not a new one to you guys. They may be technologically inferior, but they're fighting on their own home turf. There are examples from Viet Nam to Afghanistan of the technologically inferior locals defeating the technologically superior invaders (particularly when they get some outside guidance and advisors)...
As for spoilers, I'm still pissed at the one mainline news report that commented that unlike Hammill and Fisher, Ford wasn't talking about working with the Episode 8 director during interviews... :mad:
Though once he stepped out on the bridge you knew something was going to happen, and that something wasn't going to be Rylo Ken turning to the light side.
Fun aside: gave my three boys little lightsabres for Christmas. TImmy got a blue "Anakin" lightsabre, Joshua got a green "Luke" lightsabre, and because it looks cool, I got Andrew a red "Kylo Ren" lightsabre (complete with hilt). But Only Timmy has seen the movie, so Andrew doesn't know who Rylo Ken is. Timmy is trying to tell him, but says his name is "Ben".
Yeah, that's kind of how i knew han solo died....it was mostly based on stuff Harrison Ford wasn't saying in interviews
Quotebut the idea of assymetrical warfare is surely not a new one to you guys. They may be technologically inferior, but they're fighting on their own home turf. There are examples from Viet Nam to Afghanistan of the technologically inferior locals defeating the technologically superior invaders (particularly when they get some outside guidance and advisors)...
Ok if the security and future of the US depended on us holding a strategic place in Vietnam, that losing it would literally mean the total and absolute destruction of the United States as a political unit, and we had sent our most elite troops to hold it would it be realistic for the Viet Cong to seize it in a direct assault? But the Viet Kong were using assault rifles not sticks and stones and the US Army was not a futuristic space empire.
I mean I was five when I saw the movie and I just found that part confusing. But you put up with it because the much cooler confrontation with the Emperor is going on.
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2016, 01:06:58 PM
Quotebut the idea of assymetrical warfare is surely not a new one to you guys. They may be technologically inferior, but they're fighting on their own home turf. There are examples from Viet Nam to Afghanistan of the technologically inferior locals defeating the technologically superior invaders (particularly when they get some outside guidance and advisors)...
Ok if the security and future of the US depended on us holding a strategic place in Vietnam, that losing it would literally mean the total and absolute destruction of the United States as a political unit, and we had sent our most elite troops to hold it would it be realistic for the Viet Cong to seize it in a direct assault? But the Viet Kong were using assault rifles not sticks and stones and the US Army was not a futuristic space empire.
I mean I was five when I saw the movie and I just found that part confusing. But you put up with it because the much cooler confrontation with the Emperor is going on.
In the long run, of course the Empire would steamroll the Ewoks. But hubris has always been one of the weaknesses of the Empire. They didn't even acknowledge the Ewoks could be a threat to them, didn't plan or account for them. So when the Ewoks did a surprise attack the Empire was caught off guard and the Ewok/Rebel alliance was able to gain a tactical victory on that one occasion.
That singular victory of course went on to defeat the entire Empire due to the actions of the Rebel fleet and the Skywalkers.
Plus, the Ewoks gave the final battle some emotional heft. The movie had never really introduced us to any of the rebel fighter pilots, so it's hard to get worked up at fleet losses. But when the Empire is killing all those poor Ewoks, when there's that one scene where one ewok tries to wake up his deceased buddy... that's where the movie shows you the true cost of war.
As far as I know that was the only Ewok casualty :P
Anyway as a kid I wanted some badass battles not fuzzy bears throwing stones.
And as for not accounting for the Ewoks well true but they say in the movie that an entire legion of elite Imperial troops were there to stop just a handful of Rebel commandos. That should have accounted for any unforseen issues. But granted I don't know how big a legion is.
Quote from: Barrister on January 11, 2016, 12:44:53 PMMaybe because I remember seeing the movie as a kid in the theatre, but the idea of assymetrical warfare is surely not a new one to you guys. They may be technologically inferior, but they're fighting on their own home turf. There are examples from Viet Nam to Afghanistan of the technologically inferior locals defeating the technologically superior invaders (particularly when they get some outside guidance and advisors)...
It was one of the points Lucas wanted to make. Originally he wanted a climax with tribal Wookiees (this has been picked up in the comic that was released a few years ago based on an early draft of the movie), but for the original movie he had to drop the idea and went with only one Wookiee instead.
By ROTJ Chewie was established as tech savvy, so he had to drop the Wookiee climax and instead switched the syllables around to Ewok and made them miniature Wookiees instead.
Quote from: Syt on January 11, 2016, 01:33:58 PM
It was one of the points Lucas wanted to make. Originally he wanted a climax with tribal Wookiees (this has been picked up in the comic that was released a few years ago based on an early draft of the movie), but for the original movie he had to drop the idea and went with only one Wookiee instead.
By ROTJ Chewie was established as tech savvy, so he had to drop the Wookiee climax and instead switched the syllables around to Ewok and made them miniature Wookiees instead.
Well he did a bad job by proclaiming that force was 'an entire legion of my best troops'. So the message is that the Empire sucks ass. If they had put a small skeleton force because they did not take the Ewoks seriously then hey that message would have been delivered. It would be like expecting us to think the message of Napoleon sending his Imperial Guard against you is because he was too arrogant to take you seriously.
But I guess that is the artistry of Lukas. Like having a war between robots and clones draw our attention to our attitude towards the disposability of soldiers...by making them actually disposable. It really makes you think.
Quote from: Barrister on January 11, 2016, 12:44:53 PM
I gotta say - I LIKE the Ewoks! :mad:
Maybe because I remember seeing the movie as a kid in the theatre, but the idea of assymetrical warfare is surely not a new one to you guys. They may be technologically inferior, but they're fighting on their own home turf. There are examples from Viet Nam to Afghanistan of the technologically inferior locals defeating the technologically superior invaders (particularly when they get some outside guidance and advisors)...
All I can say is, you are less critical than a trio of pre-teen boys. :D
Technologically inferior troops can of course win - but not by head-on confrontation. They win by wearing their enemies down over a long period. Directly attacking a superior enemy may create a moral/propaganda win, but usually not a military one (see "Tet Offensive").
Some teddy bears ambushing and overwhelming a small patrol of unwary storm troopers? Sure, I could buy that. A tribe of teddy bears taking on a "legion" of battle-ready troops, who needed to do nothing but defend a single position for a few minutes to win? Seems rather unlikely. Pushes the suspension of disbelief too hard - worse, makes the "legion" look like utter pushovers.
I think a post-movie explanation was that the Ewoks created a diversion to pull as many troopers from the bunker as possible to allow the Rebels to do their thing.
Quote from: Tyr on January 11, 2016, 11:18:16 AM
I wonder what led to Finn being moved from sanitation into villager slaughter; strikes me that would be pretty high up on the ranking of storm trooper jobs, whilst sanitation. ....less so
it's sanitation, just of a different kind.
Quote from: Malthus on January 11, 2016, 01:41:51 PM
All I can say is, you are less critical than a trio of pre-teen boys. :D
Technologically inferior troops can of course win - but not by head-on confrontation. They win by wearing their enemies down over a long period. Directly attacking a superior enemy may create a moral/propaganda win, but usually not a military one (see "Tet Offensive").
Some teddy bears ambushing and overwhelming a small patrol of unwary storm troopers? Sure, I could buy that. A tribe of teddy bears taking on a "legion" of battle-ready troops, who needed to do nothing but defend a single position for a few minutes to win? Seems rather unlikely. Pushes the suspension of disbelief too hard - worse, makes the "legion" look like utter pushovers.
The Tet Offensive is probably a good example.
Yes, the VC/NVA were defeated - but in the initial assault the US/South Vietnamese troops were beaten back in several locations. The element of surprise can be powerful.
And stormtroopers have always looked like pushovers. I commented earlier that the opening scenes of TFA was the first time we've ever seen them look competent or menacing (though I was reminded of the off-camera murder of Luke's aunt and uncle, and of the jawas).
Quote from: Barrister on January 11, 2016, 02:01:48 PM
And stormtroopers have always looked like pushovers.
Untrue. They always won except when fighting the heroes (and even then the good guys were usually running away and the Stormtroopers just inexplicably failed to hit them. They won a big battle rather easily at the beginning of both of the first two movies.
Quote from: Barrister on January 11, 2016, 02:01:48 PM
The Tet Offensive is probably a good example.
Yes, the VC/NVA were defeated - but in the initial assault the US/South Vietnamese troops were beaten back in several locations. The element of surprise can be powerful.
And stormtroopers have always looked like pushovers. I commented earlier that the opening scenes of TFA was the first time we've ever seen them look competent or menacing (though I was reminded of the off-camera murder of Luke's aunt and uncle, and of the jawas).
There's looking incompetent, and then there's
being beaten up by teddy bears. :D
That's a problem, visually. Maybe even moreso for the pre-teen crowd. Adults may rationalize 'well, sure they
look sorta like teddy bears, but really they are ferocious savages, and so presumably cunning and violent', but what it looks like on screen is a bunch of elite soldiers
being beaten up by teddy bears. That's something a kid can look at and go 'that shit just wouldn't happen'.
Yeah as a five year old I found it silly. Also that is not what I wanted from Star Wars. I always played that I was Luke Skywalker battling Darth Vader and piloting my star fighter not a teddy bear. And as I got older I cynically took it as a way to market toys to kids. Now that may have played a role, but now I actually do think it is Lukas bungling imagery. He clearly wanted a technologically inferior people to be the difference but the way he did it was incompetent, that could have worked if done well.
Ok so possible Knights of the Old Republic inspired stuff in the movies that I thought of:
1. Kylo Ren's mask looks like Revan's.
2. The Star Map quest leading to the Soul Forge and the Star Map leading to Luke Skywalker. Plus I guess looking for the Jedi Master in hiding just like KOTOR II.
3. The Chrome Storm Trooper is kind of like the Chrome Sith troopers from KOTOR. Always such nice shiny targets.
4. The ultimate weapon drains power from a star just like the Star Forge.
That's all I got. Maybe something was inspired by KOTOR but nothing direct that gives one hope that the game is considered to be in the same universe.
Visual Dictionary (canon) has Rakata Prime on a map and refers to "The Scourge of Malachor" thousands of years ago.
In the Clone Wars cartoon, there's two bounty hunters from Manaan. There's a few episodes set on Onderon. Taris is mentioned in a canon novel.
Kylo's sabre is a KOTOR artifact.
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 11, 2016, 02:45:06 PM
Kylo's sabre is a KOTOR artifact.
Is it? I don't remember that.
Are you thinking of the MMO? I never played that.
Quote from: Syt on January 11, 2016, 02:33:23 PM
Visual Dictionary (canon) has Rakata Prime on a map and refers to "The Scourge of Malachor" thousands of years ago.
In the Clone Wars cartoon, there's two bounty hunters from Manaan. There's a few episodes set on Onderon. Taris is mentioned in a canon novel.
Awesome. Now we just need somebody to play Pazaak.
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2016, 02:46:13 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 11, 2016, 02:45:06 PM
Kylo's sabre is a KOTOR artifact.
Is it? I don't remember that.
Are you thinking of the MMO? I never played that.
Oh, that I don't know. I just read that it was canonically established as such
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2016, 02:46:13 PM
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 11, 2016, 02:45:06 PM
Kylo's sabre is a KOTOR artifact.
Is it? I don't remember that.
Are you thinking of the MMO? I never played that.
It's said to be fashioned after the sabers from the time of the Great Scourge of Malachor thousands of years ago. I don't recall seeing it in the KOTOR games, though.
But yeah, we see what was to be expected: new creators adapting stuff they liked from the EU to fit into the new continuity.
Quote from: Valmy on January 11, 2016, 02:29:21 PM
Ok so possible Knights of the Old Republic inspired stuff in the movies that I thought of:
1. Kylo Ren's mask looks like Revan's.
2. The Star Map quest leading to the Soul Forge and the Star Map leading to Luke Skywalker. Plus I guess looking for the Jedi Master in hiding just like KOTOR II.
3. The Chrome Storm Trooper is kind of like the Chrome Sith troopers from KOTOR. Always such nice shiny targets.
4. The ultimate weapon drains power from a star just like the Star Forge.
That's all I got. Maybe something was inspired by KOTOR but nothing direct that gives one hope that the game is considered to be in the same universe.
I think this kind of stuff is how old games and novels will live on in "canon" Star Wars. They won't be adopted wholesale, but in bits and pieces.
Just picked at random - apparently the Chiss race are considered "canon" by the nerds at Wookiepedia, even if Grand Admiral Thrawn is not.
Revan was very close to be included in the canon, but his appearance in the Clone Wars series as a force ghost was cut out.
Did I miss some inside joke as to why people keep typing "Rylo Ken"?
Quote from: celedhring on January 11, 2016, 03:03:09 PM
Revan was very close to be included in the canon, but his appearance in the Clone Wars series as a force ghost was cut out.
I think they went with Darth Bane instead.
Quote from: Grey Fox on January 11, 2016, 02:45:06 PM
Kylo's sabre is a KOTOR artifact.
i just figured he took the crystal from faders pyre along with his helmet and that's why it's all messed up.
So, the casting call for Ep VIII went out and there's something interesting...
http://www.moviecastingcall.org/2015/12/star-wars-episode-viii-casting-new-lead-and-supporting-roles.html
Look up the listed actors and characters, towards the end of the document. :hmm:
Probably a mistake? No way they are bringing him back. Although it could be some vision/nightmare sequence of Kylo Ren.
A flashback wouldn't be out of the question. I imagine Ford would still get several million dollars, however. Seems like a waste of budget.
Oh how i wish i could work in london
Quote from: katmai on January 11, 2016, 09:08:19 PM
Oh how i wish i could work in london
Too many outstanding warrants?
:P
Too many English AC's who are qualified to work there.
Undercover Boss: Kylo Ren.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOSCASqLsE
:lol:
that was very funny :P
It looks like John Williams got nominated again for best score. I did not find the score at all memorable - the best parts were when they reused pieces from the original trilogy.
Also very funny:
https://twitter.com/kylor3n?lang=en
Quote from: celedhring on January 17, 2016, 06:03:26 PM
Undercover Boss: Kylo Ren.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaOSCASqLsE
:lol:
That was good. :D
Quote from: Kleves on January 18, 2016, 01:57:25 PM
It looks like John Williams got nominated again for best score. I did not find the score at all memorable - the best parts were when they reused pieces from the original trilogy.
Agreed. My friends and I have all discussed and reached that same conclusion. There is just nothing that stands out. It's entirely forgettable, which is a shame.
Quote from: Benedict Arnold on January 19, 2016, 04:32:19 PM
Quote from: Kleves on January 18, 2016, 01:57:25 PM
It looks like John Williams got nominated again for best score. I did not find the score at all memorable - the best parts were when they reused pieces from the original trilogy.
Agreed. My friends and I have all discussed and reached that same conclusion. There is just nothing that stands out. It's entirely forgettable, which is a shame.
Which is odd since his score for the prequels was pretty good.
He is getting up there in age though. Though I think someone here said that the way Abrams worked with him was fairly different than how Lucas did.
I think Williams tried to hard to tie themes from before into the new characters, which has led to speculation about Rey and Snoke in particular about who they are just based on the music used in their scenes. But you can't do that without repeating a lot.
Episode 8 is being pushed back 7 months.
http://imgur.com/IVunCKQ
Quote from: Queequeg on January 21, 2016, 04:43:56 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FIVunCKQ&hash=ec82bff2047ff3e403f5bbba87dfb0f2690e703b)
Quote from: Admiral Yi on January 21, 2016, 06:57:49 AM
Quote from: Queequeg on January 21, 2016, 04:43:56 AM
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FIVunCKQ&hash=ec82bff2047ff3e403f5bbba87dfb0f2690e703b)
Smartasses.
The latest Star Wars Rebels episode features a 14-15 year old Princess Leia, and - for the fans of Old Republic - this ship design, the Hammerhead Corvette:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvignette4.wikia.nocookie.net%2Fstarwars%2Fimages%2Fc%2Fc5%2FHammerhead_corvette.png&hash=530d0ec450ee35d6ba9901acd5a0b16991e98dd4)
Based off the Hammerhead Cruiser first seen in KotOR:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg3.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20110405145539%2Fswtor%2Fimages%2Fb%2Fbd%2FRepublic_Hammerhead_Cruiser_1.jpg&hash=3757d6ed5c9e75bee8de8c390190a7a0735892da)
Nice to see that the team keeps drawing from the Expanded Universe for inspiration. And also nice to see the "old" AT-AT design inspired by Ralph McQuarrie paintings again:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.kinja-img.com%2Fgawker-media%2Fimage%2Fupload%2Fs--qqsDBt7C--%2Fc_scale%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_80%2Cw_800%2F1485469370798091664.jpg&hash=54c6f3c503b012a37ec3b82c563d262f6a2de0ef)
(Different episode, but the design is the same)
:nerd: :nerd: :nerd:
http://imgur.com/gallery/HP8td
Sav called it.
45 minute video covering a large amount of references/cameos/easter eggs in Force Awakens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DglBQf3U5Xs
It closes with pointing out that Force Awakens has quite a few parallels to the story of King Arthur and Mordred which are also the subject here: https://www.reddit.com/r/FanTheories/comments/3xkvlh/star_wars_the_force_awakens_spoilers_tfa_is_based/
QuoteI believe the real purpose of Kylo's saber is for the medieval imagery, to subconsciously remind us of Arthurian tales. The tri-sword obviously resembles a medieval broadsword. On top of that, Kylo also wears more of a tunic than robes like we've seen in the past, his cape on one shoulder is also reminiscent of what we see in some medieval movies. He has long curly hair like Jon Snow. Kylo is basically a Mordred/Sherriff of Nottingham type character. His helmet is much like a black knight. Maz Kanata is in a castle, which is decorated with banners much like medieval times, and we see lots of huge stone blocks - the appearance is very simlar to something we would see in England. Stormtroopers have shields. Kylo has his own Knights (like an evil Knights of the Round Table), which wear medieval style armor and helmets. Phasma has metallic armor like a knight. The sword fighting is now more medieval style, with large swings and heavy hits. Even most of the places they go are like European settings, with normal forests and lakes. You could imagine a LOTR or Game of Thrones battle happening in front of Maz's castle, in the snowy woods, or Luke's island. Luke of course, would be Merlin.
So then we have Rey, who is basically a poor peasant. She comes along and basically takes what Kylo believes is his birthright. He thinks his bloodline grants him the right to rule the galaxy like Vader because he is Vader's grandson. He probably had Snoke filling him with ideas of grandeur throughout his youth, like an evil Morgana/Morgan le Fay (Snoke was even supposed to be a woman at one point). But Rey is the true heir to Skywalker's legacy, like Arthur (Even with a British accent!). She was hidden when the Empire/Kingdom fell apart, but now has returned from obscurity to take her place. Mordred who Kylo is probably based on is famous for being King Arthur's traitorous nephew. Maz tells her the sword belonged to Vader and Luke, and now it calls to her - Maz bestows the sword that she has been saving all this time to Rey like the Lady of the Lake. Kylo sees the sword later and says it belongs to him. But then they have a sword in the stone moment and he can't pull it to himself. We are surprised when it suddenly flies out past him and to Rey instead. The sword chose her. The sword is much like Excalibur, a legendary sword with great importance and symbolizes Rey as the true successor.
Edit: As pointed out below, Rey means King in Spanish. Maz's castle is on a lake (Lady of the Lake).
In King arthur there is a magical island called Avalon where Arthur goes to hide after losing in battle to his nephew Mordred. It is a place associated with magic and Excalibur was forged there. After recovering from his wounds he returns from Avalon to lead his allies against his enemies. This parallels Luke losing to his nephew and leaving to find the ancient Jedi Temple, which happens to be on an island.
The video also surmises that Rey's vision is actually Psychometry, a jedi skill to see an object's past and connections to beings as previously used by Quinlan Vos (who appeared in the EU and also Clone Wars, so this power is technically canon).
Quotereminiscent of what we see in some medieval movies
Stopped reading there.
I suppose general Star Wars discussion goes here now? I didn't want to start a new thread. :unsure:
I've finished the Aftermath trilogy of novels, and have to admit I liked it a lot. The hectic narrative style of the 1st book calms down in books 2 and 3, but it remains present tense which will put people off. Though it works pretty well for the action scenes.
Plot and spoilers to follow.
The series takes place after Endor, with the Empire reeling and trying to find its footing. The New Republic is facing internal struggle. Chancellor Mon Mothma is careful to avoid military build up (in fact, the military is largely decentralized), but the Empire is retreating faster than the NR can fill the void.
Ostensibly the Empire is led by Grand Admiral Rae Sloane, but behind her is the elusive puppet master Gallius Rax, an orphan from Jakku who was groomed by Palpatine to be the "contingency" in case Palpatine dies.
Over the course of the story, Sloane and Rax fall out, with Rax taking as much of the Imperial remnant to Jakku where he instills a brutal training regimen and also prepares for the Empire's future.
The "contingency", as envisioned by Palpatine, was that if the Emperor dies, the Empire has failed and doesn't deserve to survive. Basically, it's time to flip the board and move on to a new game. The plan is to draw the New Republic to Jakku for a climactic battle, then collapse the planet, destroying both fleets. A core of Imperials moves into the Unknown Regions to build a new Empire in a new galaxy.
To keep things short, the plan fails, mostly, the Imperial fleet is destroyed, and the NR triumphs. However, Sloane, with a few survivors making it to Palpatine's hidden flagship, the Eclipse, in the unknown regions where they start rebuilding (Sloane doesn't hold with the whole moving to a new galaxy thing, or Force mysticism; neither did Rax). Along for the ride is Brendol Hux, and his son, Armitage Hux (the redhead general from Ep. VII) who aim to indoctrinate kids from a young age to make them killing machines.
The characters were pretty decent. On NR side you have Leia, Han, Chewie, Wedge, and Mon Mothma as known folks. "Snap" Wexley (the, uhm, big boned, bearded pilot in Ep. VII) is still a youngster, and he's accompanied by his modified B1 battle droid who is both childlike, singing, dancing, and murderous with retractable blades ("I HAVE PERFORMED VIOLENCE, MASTER"), and overall pretty funny, almost reaching HK-47 levels (in fact, he has a trowaway line where he speaks like HK, so it's a clear homage). Wexley's mom, Norra, a Rebel veteran pilot, carries much of the plot. They're joined by a female Zabrak bounty hunter, a niece of Sugi who showed up in Clone Wars, and Sinjir Rath Velus a former Comissar Imperial Loyalty Officer who provides a heavy dose of cynicism and snark, and is probably the first major gay character in canon Star Wars. He redeems himself by the end and finds love.
On Imperial side you have Rae Sloane who believes in the Empire as a guarantor of peace, order, and stability. Gallius Rax, the puppet master envisions a more vicious, brutal, animalistic Empire.
The trilogy explains the beginning transformation of The Empire to the First Order. It establishes that Palpatine had an array of observatories in the Outer Rim, to chart the hazardous Unknown Regions, and to find the source of the Dark Side which he believed to be outside the galaxy. In fact, he kept around Thrawn, an alien, mostly because as a Chiss he knew those regions very well.
They made the Eclipse canon? Is it the huge one from the comics?
Quote from: MadImmortalMan on March 17, 2017, 05:52:12 AM
They made the Eclipse canon? Is it the huge one from the comics?
Undetermined. It's probably just the name carried over, as it's stated that the Empire had 13 SSDs without any comment on the ship being bigger/special; Sloane tries to determine the fate of each one, and only comes up empty for the Eclipse, because it was secretly sent out of the galaxy.
Random notes: Wendig continued to use "interludes", short scenes not directly connected to the main plot showing what happens elsewhere in the galaxy; some of them are "mini trilogies." E.g. the Acolytes of Beyond are young fanatics worshipping Vader and the Dark Side, and turning into a terrorist force, or the Church of the Force, returning kyber crystals to their origins. Taris is canon, but little is known about its history, except that at some point it was a city planet that got destroyed. It's generally a shit place to live. Pazaak still exists. As do giskas. :D
Are those new books?
Yes, the newest was released this month. Next month a canon novel by Timothy Zahn comes out: Thrawn. It's part of the new (coordinated) canon. It connects with Clone Wars, the original and prequel movies, the new movies, etc. They're also pulling in legends ideas where it fits. E.g. the planet of Taris, or - in Rebels - Grand Admiral Thrawn, the TIE-Defender, etc.
I've started following the new canon - some of it is good (Luceno's Tarkin novel is very good, and his Catalyst novel - a prequel to Rogue One - was also pretty decent, later Clone Wars, some episodes of Rebels), some a mixed bag (early Star Wars Rebels and early Clone Wars, some of the comics). It's seems better coordinated than the original EU on which I gave up at some point. I've started reading Twilight Company, a book to tien into the new Battlefront game, and it's surprisingly ok. Lost Stars was also decent, with a couple fighting on opposite sides of the Galactic Civil War.
Btw, the Star Wars audiobooks are pretty good - their use of music/sound effects may seem cheesy, but overall they can enhance an otherwise meh story.
Syt, going through the new EU so I don't have to. :thumbsup:
Quote from: celedhring on March 17, 2017, 07:45:57 AM
Syt, going through the new EU so I don't have to. :thumbsup:
:P
To be clear: this is not high literature or anything. It's a Star Wars fix for me, and between the movies, books, comics (thanks, Marvel Unlimited), and TV shows it's not too overwhelming.
I know a lot of people bemoan the end of the old EU, but when I look at stuff like the Yuzhan Vong invasion (or however you spell that) I don't feel like touching much it with a ten foot pole.
But I know the feeling - before the Thrawn trilogy, the only EU I knew of were the Marvel comics from the 70s/80s, and the Brian Daley and L. Neil Smith books about Han Solo and Lando. Almost all of it got wiped when the 90s EU took off. I hope that the Old Republic comics on which the KotOR games were originally based will be made canon in some form again. Exar Kun. :(
The Tales of the Jedi comics were absolute boss. I love the mix of sci-fi and sword of sorcery, plus there were some neat stories in them. I wish the Kotor games actually incorporated that aesthetic, although I guess it wouldn't have been as recognizable to the general public.
Yeah, the KotOR games always seemed like more of a re-imagining of Star Wars to me. Taking the same concepts, technology, and locations, but doing different stories with them that don't have to worry about continuity.
Quote from: Syt on March 17, 2017, 07:53:19 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 17, 2017, 07:45:57 AM
Syt, going through the new EU so I don't have to. :thumbsup:
:P
To be clear: this is not high literature or anything. It's a Star Wars fix for me, and between the movies, books, comics (thanks, Marvel Unlimited), and TV shows it's not too overwhelming.
I know a lot of people bemoan the end of the old EU, but when I look at stuff like the Yuzhan Vong invasion (or however you spell that) I don't feel like touching much it with a ten foot pole.
But I know the feeling - before the Thrawn trilogy, the only EU I knew of were the Marvel comics from the 70s/80s, and the Brian Daley and L. Neil Smith books about Han Solo and Lando. Almost all of it got wiped when the 90s EU took off. I hope that the Old Republic comics on which the KotOR games were originally based will be made canon in some form again. Exar Kun. :(
There's a good chance they'll just be brought into the canon because otherwise detangling Revan's presence in canon would be too complicated.
Some of the new canon is weird, though. Like Lando smuggling an inflatable sniffing pig. Or Dr. Aphra and her two murderous companions, not-C-3PO and not-R2-D2 (between them, Mr Bones, and HK-47, the murderous droid dark humor is getting a bit tired, though).
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com%2F46%2F36%2F0938255333f2c3e7c52be297fbc59e97.jpg&hash=286f84080485dc4cbbfc52ced91970c99f544ca9)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUH-_7LUEAAv8Km.png)
I liked Inspector Thanoth in the Vader comics (see avatar) - he hunts criminals and looks and talks much like a Victorian gentleman detective. :lol:
Not sure the dialog on those panels qualifies as "humor" though. Not a patch on HK.
Quote from: celedhring on March 17, 2017, 08:24:45 AM
Not sure the dialog on those panels qualifies as "humor" though. Not a patch on HK.
It's pretty hamfisted. It's basically, "What if C-3PO and R2 were evil?"
Mr Bones from Aftermath had his own (simple) personality at least.
Quote from: Syt on March 17, 2017, 08:27:11 AM
Quote from: celedhring on March 17, 2017, 08:24:45 AM
Not sure the dialog on those panels qualifies as "humor" though. Not a patch on HK.
It's pretty hamfisted. It's basically, "What if C-3PO and R2 were evil?"
Mr Bones from Aftermath had his own (simple) personality at least.
There's that bit in Kotor 2 where an HK-50 tries to make you believe that he's a protocol droid that does the "what if C-3PO was evil" shtick much better than what those panels suggest. "My task is to facilitate communications and terminate hostilities" :lol:
True. :)
0-0-0 and BT are a bit better in context, but they seem a lazy idea to me.
I come again to Mister Bones. Clearly, HK was the inspiration, but he gets his own traits, personality, and heart, plus a bit of character devlopment, clearly caring for his master and the ones close to his master. And he's wonderfully creepy and funny.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/dc/65/98/dc6598db4944f9a282c57a682416aa7a.jpg)
Looking around the web, the audience reaction to him is pretty positive, and he's probably a standout character for many (personally, my favorites were Sinjir and Sloane).
I would consider a new Thrawn book by Zahn (which you mentioned) but all the other stuff doesn't entice me.
Quote from: Zanza on March 18, 2017, 04:06:34 AM
I would consider a new Thrawn book by Zahn (which you mentioned) but all the other stuff doesn't entice me.
This is the third time around "establishing" a "new" canon. By now, it's pretty much established that the early entries are fairly cringe-inducing until an established/talented author starts firming up some things (Splinter of the Mind's Eye and some of the highly-serialized Luke/Leia/Han books that came between Shadows of the Empire and the Thrawn Trilogy come to mind).
Bringing Zahn back on this early in the game is a really good move; he's incredibly consistent- even his "pulp fiction" in the Cobra (non-Star Wars sci fi)books has fairly consistent quality.
Quote from: DontSayBanana on March 18, 2017, 07:45:01 AM
Quote from: Zanza on March 18, 2017, 04:06:34 AM
I would consider a new Thrawn book by Zahn (which you mentioned) but all the other stuff doesn't entice me.
This is the third time around "establishing" a "new" canon. By now, it's pretty much established that the early entries are fairly cringe-inducing until an established/talented author starts firming up some things (Splinter of the Mind's Eye and some of the highly-serialized Luke/Leia/Han books that came between Shadows of the Empire and the Thrawn Trilogy come to mind).
Bringing Zahn back on this early in the game is a really good move; he's incredibly consistent- even his "pulp fiction" in the Cobra (non-Star Wars sci fi)books has fairly consistent quality.
The Zahn books are the only ones I have of the EU. shame they weren't all Zahn....
I didn't care much for the Thrawn books. They had some good characters, but overall I found them very silly between anti-force-lizards, a confused force clone, and unpronounceable names. They are better than much of the old EU, though.
EU?
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 18, 2017, 03:20:08 PM
EU?
Expanded Universe. What's now called "Legends". Most comics/novels/games that were released from the 90s till Disney takeover.
Quote from: Syt on March 18, 2017, 03:17:52 PM
I didn't care much for the Thrawn books. They had some good characters, but overall I found them very silly between anti-force-lizards, a confused force clone, and unpronounceable names. They are better than much of the old EU, though.
The Thrawn books were very entertaining, but never felt much like Star Wars stories to me. I liked the Jedi Academy trilogy more.
I think I mentioned it before, but I generally didn't care for "what happened after Endor" stuff where you had the warlord of the month, Emperor clones and Alien not-Aztec invaders.
I did like stories that focused on side characters, or "filled gaps" between the movies. As that's what the new expanded universe is focused on I guess it's why I generally like the new material.
Quote from: Syt on March 18, 2017, 03:27:01 PM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on March 18, 2017, 03:20:08 PM
EU?
Expanded Universe. What's now called "Legends". Most comics/novels/games that were released from the 90s till Disney takeover.
Gotcha.
You shouldn't know this much.
Quote from: Syt on March 18, 2017, 04:00:13 PM
I think I mentioned it before, but I generally didn't care for "what happened after Endor" stuff where you had the warlord of the month, Emperor clones and Alien not-Aztec invaders.
I did like stories that focused on side characters, or "filled gaps" between the movies. As that's what the new expanded universe is focused on I guess it's why I generally like the new material.
I like both type of stories, but never read anything pre-Yavin though.
I loved the Thrawn books when I first read them as they were Star Wars and they were new. When I tried re-reading them years later, I was significantly less impressed. I tried to keep up with the EU for a while, but there was just too much content coming out. I left Star Wars material entirely for years before coming back for the Clone War era books and shows. The Karen Traviss books are my favorite piece of EU material. I wasn't pleased when they axed her contract and ret-conned them out. I need to get new copies of the books as I gifted them out to a friend years ago.
I like the James Luceno books. Tarkin was already pretty good, and Catalyst added a lot of good character background and history to Kalen Erso and Orsen Krennic (and the construction of the Death Star, incidentally) and gave more information about the transformation from Republic to Empire (which Tarkin also deals with to some degree).
I have yet to read his old EU material, though (most prominently, Darth Plagueis).
NERDS
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 19, 2017, 07:49:24 PM
NERDS
Says the guy who filled notebooks with lessons from the GOR novels...
Quote from: PDH on March 19, 2017, 07:53:50 PM
Quote from: Ed Anger on March 19, 2017, 07:49:24 PM
NERDS
Says the guy who filled notebooks with lessons from the GOR novels...
HEY NOW
Sometimes those covers were the closest thing to porn we could get.
Quote from: Syt on March 18, 2017, 04:00:13 PM
I think I mentioned it before, but I generally didn't care for "what happened after Endor" stuff where you had the warlord of the month, Emperor clones and Alien not-Aztec invaders.
I did like stories that focused on side characters, or "filled gaps" between the movies. As that's what the new expanded universe is focused on I guess it's why I generally like the new material.
Agreed on pretty much all counts. Making names sound "alien" by pretending vowels didn't exist and ysalimiri (the aforementioned anti-force lizards for those not up on former SW canon) were pretty much the low points of the EU. And side-character driven stories were pretty much the high points (I was partial to the Rogue Squadron stuff in general), and my absolute favorite EU book was
I, Jedi, a noir-styled first person narrative that took Corran Horn from a fighter pilot to a Jedi with an interesting twist (his Force powers were almost exclusively illusions- none of the Darth Maul-esque flippy saber fights for this guy).
The latest Star Wars Rebels episode was pretty good, with the final confrontation of Kenobi and Maul.
It was wonderfully understated, and a good end to a pretty broken person. There were complaints about the fight being too short, but it reminded me of the samurai duels of Akira Kurosawa, or some of Leone's best shoot outs - building up tension, both combatants getting ready, close ups, and then a quick explosive conclusion. :nerd:
Maul had an interesting arc between Clone Wars and Rebels. From mad, feral half-cyborg to iron fisted ruler of Mandalore to a broken husk seeking revenge against Kenobi and (maybe) Palpatine.
yeah pretty good. I thought the anti-climatic fight was very fitting, given the really tough fight of Episode I, and 40 years have passed since then, and Maul was seen as a super badass so far, it was very touching that it was so short.
I don't know if I should post it here or in the movies megathread, but anyway, a nice long interview with a special effect guy from Star Wars and Aliens, by a well known Languishite:
http://factor-tech.com/feature/scrap-over-cgi-how-waste-made-star-wars/ (http://factor-tech.com/feature/scrap-over-cgi-how-waste-made-star-wars/)
Awesome!
The current canon timeline:
https://www.geek.com/culture/the-current-canonical-star-wars-timeline-1683840/
EDIT: It seems to miss Lost Stars, but it's hard to place since it runs from before A New Hope to after Endor.
https://youtu.be/NYD3QtyEGGM?list=PL8s6sSjUyaxUk3mCUqiNuJiMNxs9QdthO
Sgt. Peppers Lonely Heart's Club Band parodied with a star wars theme
QuoteDPRK News Service @DPRK_News 12h
"Star Wars" is science fiction tale of lazy peasant, whose neglect of agricultural quotas leads to destruction of his friends and family.
Some people need to get out more. They take this stuff way too seriously.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DgssbQ9X4AA9etW.jpg:large)
Jesus Christ people just watch different movies.
"To push an agenda of masculine inferiority". So it's from some men's rights nutjobs, can safely disregard the whole thing then.
Quote from: celedhring on June 27, 2018, 12:34:58 PM
"To push an agenda of masculine inferiority". So it's from some men's rights nutjobs, can safely disregard the whole thing then.
They state they are doing so in the name and authority of the "free market of the world" and deny that they are just a bunch of fat, white alt-right nutbars. So safe to say the are a bunch of fat, white, alt-right nutbars.
I'm not exactly sure what direction they thought the new movies were going to go with the old characters - the actors are well in to their 60s and 70s by now. Obviously they're going to use the old characters to launch new ones so they can keep this whole thing going another 40 years.
Solo dying by his son's hand was powerful - and very effective in getting Kylo Ren over as a bad guy.
As for Luke - while he may have started as a crotchety old man his character did grow and he DID save his sister. If anything his passing was over-sold - what with him sitting on that rock up against twin sons, obviously echoing the first time we saw him in Ep 4.
And Leia - I thought the scene of her saving herself from space using the force was very effective as it was finally pay off for her being Luke's sister and powerful in the force in her own right. And while obviously they won't be able to give her an effective send-off, that has nothing to do with Disney and everything to do with Carrie Fisher's death.
I know you inexplicably like those crap movies BB but that is not really the point here. These guys may or may not be right about the how the characters were used but they are clearly nutballs.
Quote from: crazy canuck on June 27, 2018, 12:45:39 PM
Quote from: celedhring on June 27, 2018, 12:34:58 PM
"To push an agenda of masculine inferiority". So it's from some men's rights nutjobs, can safely disregard the whole thing then.
They state they are doing so in the name and authority of the "free market of the world" and deny that they are just a bunch of fat, white alt-right nutbars. So safe to say the are a bunch of fat, white, alt-right nutbars.
Oh trust me, they have plenty of nutters of other races. If this kind of insanity were reserved to fat, white people things would be much better in this country.
I did notice a lot of toxicity from "real fans" of the movies against the new installments, especially VIII (which I thought was quite ok and fun to watch, but not great).
Quote from: Syt on June 27, 2018, 01:21:11 PM
I did notice a lot of toxicity from "real fans" of the movies against the new installments, especially VIII (which I thought was quite ok and fun to watch, but not great).
It has been rather hard not to notice. If anybody has ruined Star Wars it is those assholes.
Amusing to see these crazies run to the defense of Lucas, when he was responsible for the entire prequel triology.
If they really were concerned about masculine inferiority, take aim at the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker as a shallow, whiney brat.
How can you say a single bad word about any other SW movie while exonerating the man who give us Jar-Jar.
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2018, 04:29:55 PM
How can you say a single bad word about any other SW movie while exonerating the man who give us Jar-Jar.
I should have made that my new signature line quote :Embarrass:
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2018, 04:29:55 PM
Amusing to see these crazies run to the defense of Lucas, when he was responsible for the entire prequel triology.
If they really were concerned about masculine inferiority, take aim at the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker as a shallow, whiney brat.
How can you say a single bad word about any other SW movie while exonerating the man who give us Jar-Jar.
Yeah I thought they hated Lucas for ruining Star Wars. There was even a movie about it.
So confused.
Quote from: Valmy on June 27, 2018, 05:47:02 PM
Yeah I thought they hated Lucas for ruining Star Wars. There was even a movie about it.
So confused.
I think it is nostalgia plus the concept of Lucas at least buying them a nice dinner (original trilogy) before throwing shit at them (the prequels) as opposed to Disney who many view as skipping the dinner and just throwing shit. I don't necessarily agree, but I know a lot of people who have gone full rage on the franchise/Disney. I also think the inundation of Star Wars now has just worn people out.
Quote from: Valmy on June 27, 2018, 05:47:02 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on June 27, 2018, 04:29:55 PM
Amusing to see these crazies run to the defense of Lucas, when he was responsible for the entire prequel triology.
If they really were concerned about masculine inferiority, take aim at the portrayal of Anakin Skywalker as a shallow, whiney brat.
How can you say a single bad word about any other SW movie while exonerating the man who give us Jar-Jar.
Yeah I thought they hated Lucas for ruining Star Wars. There was even a movie about it.
So confused.
A lot of it is idiotic alt-right "incels" angry at a world they think is victimizing them, so launching a culture war about Star Wars of all places is actually not all that surprising.
I wish those incels would just go to a brothel and stop sublimating their frustration into internet rage.
That gets expensive pretty quick.
Star Wars is just a vehicle for flogging merchandise. It died years ago. Let it rest in peace. Zombie Star Wars isn't worth getting emotional over.
There's a traveling Star Wars exhibit put on by the Smithsonian and the Lucas Museum concerning the costumes: Star Wars and the Power of Costume (http://www.powerofcostume.si.edu/costumes.html). I saw it when I was last in Detroit Detroit Institute of Arts (https://www.dia.org/starwars) where it will be until September (unfortunately that's the last stop for the exhibit.)
The exhibit has everything from storyboards to droids (and, as you probably guessed, an elaborate gift shop.) Some of the highlights:
Princess Leia Slave Bikini
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/a98a624de7c393bee55318166953890fd5c0f5a5/c=136-0-2264-1600/local/-/media/2018/05/17/DetroitFreeP/DetroitFreePress/636621789039092664-slave-costume.jpg?width=540&height=405&fit=crop)
There was some tut-tutting about objectifying women in the exhibit notes. Still, Carrie did massive amounts of cocaine worked hard to have that body, she might as well show it off.
Cantina Storyboard
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/19e49d99b3bba40e025047adfdb423d5b0accf03/c=125-0-2276-1617/local/-/media/2018/05/18/DetroitFreeP/DetroitFreePress/636622259103306648-starwars-051718-424.jpg?width=540&height=405&fit=crop)
To me it was surprising how much thought went into the costuming. I had assumed that, for the Cantina scene, they had just raided the wardrobe department (which is why the devil is a customer there.)
How to Dress Darth Vader:
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/14c7489ede9d693adccde4d73de295b2870a7822/c=87-0-2215-1600/local/-/media/2018/05/17/DetroitFreeP/DetroitFreePress/636621690217211072-darth-vader-directions.jpg?width=540&height=405&fit=crop)
They made a point to tell about how difficult it was to get into or around in the costumes. They had a take where Padme and Anakin break out into giggles as C3PO runs into a wall.
Padme's Wedding Gown
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/085971b7b99abdb7e11a9061d458294657a4da40/c=53-0-2307-1695/local/-/media/2018/05/17/DetroitFreeP/DetroitFreePress/636621693313463939-wedding-dress.jpg?width=540&height=405&fit=crop)
Natalie Portman described her character as a "Brave, no-nonsense woman with the prettiest dresses in the galaxy." In almost every scene she wears something different, so they had a ton of her costumes.
Finn's jacket:
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/a98a624de7c393bee55318166953890fd5c0f5a5/c=136-0-2264-1600/local/-/media/2018/05/18/DetroitFreeP/DetroitFreePress/636622259070728851-starwars-051718-423.jpg?width=540&height=405&fit=crop)
The exhibit explains how they got the look of the rebel pilots from old World War II movies (and Imperial officers as well.) Deriving the costuming from real world cultures allowed you to immediately (and subconsciously) identify the character's "Type." (There was some tut-tutting on that as well concerning the Sand People, since their costuming derived from Bedouin culture.)
Darth Maul concept art
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/9a2584644b865e089be87a3c8486aa52fb8f764b/c=104-0-2296-1648/local/-/media/2018/05/18/DetroitFreeP/DetroitFreePress/636622259032625080-starwars-051718-421.jpg?width=540&height=405&fit=crop)
George Lucas told the concept artist to draw his worst nightmare. Upon seeing this he told him to draw his second worst nightmare.
They modified a lot of real world props, because it was cheaper and faster than creating new ones, especially for the first movie. Which is why most guns in A New Hope are pretty easily identifiable if you know your WW2 weaponry. ;)
A lot of the detail on the Death Star came from model building kits where they took e.g. motor and engine parts and rearranged them.
Bossck's suit was based on a flight suit used by the Royal Air Force. It was even used in an old Doctor Who episode:
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-p_0cUEPBhC8/U2a_9GlbgPI/AAAAAAAAXMg/wW3eIlIx_2A/s1600/bossk-suit-from-doctor-who.jpg)
Quote from: Syt on July 13, 2018, 10:24:00 AM
They modified a lot of real world props, because it was cheaper and faster than creating new ones, especially for the first movie. Which is why most guns in A New Hope are pretty easily identifiable if you know your WW2 weaponry. ;)
A lot of the detail on the Death Star came from model building kits where they took e.g. motor and engine parts and rearranged them.
Bossck's suit was based on a flight suit used by the Royal Air Force. It was even used in an old Doctor Who episode:
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-p_0cUEPBhC8/U2a_9GlbgPI/AAAAAAAAXMg/wW3eIlIx_2A/s1600/bossk-suit-from-doctor-who.jpg)
Interesting stuff. I've read that the space ship in "Alien" was made from a bunch of Star Wars model kits that they rearranged to make a new space ship.
So, the show The Mandalorian.
https://www.starwars.com/news/the-mandalorian-revealed
QuoteTHE MANDALORIAN FIRST IMAGE, DIRECTORS REVEALED
DETAILS EMERGE FOR LUCASFILM'S LIVE-ACTION SERIES HELMED BY JON FAVREAU.
Production on the first Star Wars live-action streaming series has begun! After the stories of Jango and Boba Fett, another warrior emerges in the Star Wars universe. The Mandalorian is set after the fall of the Empire and before the emergence of the First Order. We follow the travails of a lone gunfighter in the outer reaches of the galaxy far from the authority of the New Republic. The series will be written and executive produced by Emmy-nominated producer and actor Jon Favreau, as previously announced, with Dave Filoni (Star Wars: The Clone Wars, Star Wars Rebels) directing the first episode. Additional episodic directors include Deborah Chow (Jessica Jones), Rick Famuyiwa (Dope), Bryce Dallas Howard (Solemates), and Taika Waititi (Thor: Ragnarok). It will be executive produced by Jon Favreau, Dave Filoni, Kathleen Kennedy, and Colin Wilson. Karen Gilchrist will serve as co-executive producer. Stay tuned to StarWars.com for updates.
(https://starwarsblog.starwars.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/the-mandalorian-1024x809.jpg)
I'm getting a bit of a wild west vibe from this (lone gunfighter, lawless regions of the galaxy, ...).
Dave Filoni directing the first episode kinda makes me wonder if The Mandalorian will be one of the Mandalorians from Clone Wars or Rebels, and if he was picked to establish the overall tone. The build of the character looks male, so that would eliminate Bo-Katan Kryze or Sabine Wren. Besides, Sabine's outfit would be more colorful. However, Rebels ended with Asokah and Sabine going to find Ezra Bridger after the events of Return of the Jedi (not to mention that Thrawn is also still unaccounted for after the Rebels finale). Maybe Sabine's brother trying to find her?
:hmm:
You just made me start watching Clone Wars, which I've been putting off for years. :lol:
So far they've managed to make Anakin likeable, which is an impressive feat.
Quote from: celedhring on October 07, 2018, 02:57:21 PM
You just made me start watching Clone Wars, which I've been putting off for years. :lol:
So far they've managed to make Anakin likeable, which is an impressive feat.
I thought the first two seasons of Clone Wars rather uneven. It becomes better in the later seasons. Rebels suffers IMHO from a similar problem.
The episode with the rookies defending the early warning outpost is the first one I genuinely liked. Actually the show seems to pick up whenever they shift focus to clone soldiers.
I don't know how Grevious managed to retain command until the last movie, he comes across as rather incompetent.
Yeah, there's some lame stuff to suffer through. I agree that the Clone Trooper focused episodes tend to be good. The outpost episode was the one that made me stick it out through the first two seasons. Season 2 has a couple of "let's remake an old movie concept in Star Wars" which was ... mostly not good. Mid season 3 has some ... trippy stuff that's IMHO pretty interesting. Which kinda gets picked up again in the final season of Rebels. Rebels, overall, did the whole mystery of the Force very well.
Rebels I watched the first two seasons of, and then I dropped it. Seems I missed the good parts, then.
Yeah, Season 3 becomes better, but seasons 4 and 5 is really where it's at. The introduction of Thrawn was pretty good, and it comes together for a pretty big final arc.
I'll definitely go back to Rebels once I finish with Clone Wars. But I'm going to watch this first. For starters, the surprise character reveal at the end of Rebels' first season meant nothing to me, since I didn't know who the heck [spoiler]Ashoka Tano [/spoiler]was.
I'm up to CW 01*08 - a Jar Jar Binks-centric episode. This will be tougher than I thought.
Quote from: celedhring on October 09, 2018, 05:21:54 AM
I'm up to CW 01*08 - a Jar Jar Binks-centric episode. This will be tougher than I thought.
You SW nerds are really masochists. :x
Suffering is the path to enlightenment.
There are some Jar Jar episodes, yes. They're, on general, not good (he does get an ok-ish send off near the end of the show). Also: Hondo Onaka (who unfortunately also shows up in Rebels).
I saw the latest Star Wars, Han Solo's younger years. It was ok, not great. I like the genre of space based movies and TV shows so I like the SW stuff. I also like the new Star Trek and new characters. So for me, I'm happy to see these movie sagas continue, prequel and otherwise. I mostly liked the SW sequels with the new characters and story lines.
I thought Solo was entertaining enough, though many other characters were more interesting than Han. I even wanted to see more of Darth Maul, so I guess I'll have to watch the animated series sometime.
Haven't watched Solo yet. Bringing back Maul seemed like the stupidest thing at first, but he became a pretty decent character in the two animated shows.
I think that Solo was pretty ok myself. My expectations were very low, but I was pleasantly surprised. I think its biggest problem was that several of the supporting characters end up being more interesting than Solo himself. The filmmakers didn't fully commit to making him a more nuanced/egotistical character (or making a convincing case as of why he becomes one) - I guess so out of worry of making him unlikeable.
Maul seemed a cliffhanger for a followup that fortunately seems it won't happen. Solo and the Force just wouldn't mix pre-original trilogy.
I would love to see an attempt to do something like redeeming an evil character, maybe someone like Maul.
See if you can show the story from the other side in a manner that makes the viewer think "OK, I can see why these previously 'evil' characters have done what they did, why it makes sense for them..."
This was done kind of with Vader, but not really. Anakin was a good guy who became evil, and then returned to good. I would like to see an attempt to tell the story from the side of a antagonist that makes you understand better why it makes sense for them other than "Because I am evil!"
Good idea Berk. A character driven story line from that angle would have some strong substance to it, fleshing out a whole other side and story line. It'll be interesting if something like that's in the works as a change of pace. I wonder how audiences would like such a change?
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2018, 09:48:45 AM
I would love to see an attempt to do something like redeeming an evil character, maybe someone like Maul.
See if you can show the story from the other side in a manner that makes the viewer think "OK, I can see why these previously 'evil' characters have done what they did, why it makes sense for them..."
This was done kind of with Vader, but not really. Anakin was a good guy who became evil, and then returned to good. I would like to see an attempt to tell the story from the side of a antagonist that makes you understand better why it makes sense for them other than "Because I am evil!"
There is a well developed lore explaining the dark side and the motivations of characters who turn to the dark side which already goes beyond explaining their motivations as "because I am evil".
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2018, 09:48:45 AM
This was done kind of with Vader, but not really. Anakin was a good guy who became evil, and then returned to good. I would like to see an attempt to tell the story from the side of a antagonist that makes you understand better why it makes sense for them other than "Because I am evil!"
I think Kreia, from KOTOR2 was a better villain than all subsequent ones. In fact, even the other, underdeveloped villains of KOTOR2 have kernels of stories more interesting than what we have seen since then.
But otherwise, I am divided on making evil character understandable/relatable. We have had a number of all-too relatable villains in recent tv productions, and I think it backfires into a celebration of might and 'badassery' , rather than building empathy for a character's torment... Star Wars was a fairy tale epic at its base, not a character study. Fairy tale villains serve the purpose of asserting clearly the antagonist as an ideal-typical incarnation of evil.
I think in Star Wars you have different types of villains:
- truly evil ones: e.g. Palpatine, Jabba. In it purely for themselves.
- those who want to do good and end up corrupted: Anakin, possibly Kylo Ren, Assaj Ventress to some degree, ...
- those who think that the "evil" side - e.g. the Empire - is, warts and all, on the whole doing the right thing: e.g. Thrawn, many "just doing their job" Imperials
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 10, 2018, 10:42:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2018, 09:48:45 AM
This was done kind of with Vader, but not really. Anakin was a good guy who became evil, and then returned to good. I would like to see an attempt to tell the story from the side of a antagonist that makes you understand better why it makes sense for them other than "Because I am evil!"
I think Kreia, from KOTOR2 was a better villain than all subsequent ones. In fact, even the other, underdeveloped villains of KOTOR2 have kernels of stories more interesting than what we have seen since then.
But otherwise, I am divided on making evil character understandable/relatable. We have had a number of all-too relatable villains in recent tv productions, and I think it backfires into a celebration of might and 'badassery' , rather than building empathy for a character's torment... Star Wars was a fairy tale epic at its base, not a character study. Fairy tale villains serve the purpose of asserting clearly the antagonist as an ideal-typical incarnation of evil.
Or to use the analysis of Joseph Campbell, the Star Wars villains serve the purpose of villains in mythology.
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 10, 2018, 10:42:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2018, 09:48:45 AM
This was done kind of with Vader, but not really. Anakin was a good guy who became evil, and then returned to good. I would like to see an attempt to tell the story from the side of a antagonist that makes you understand better why it makes sense for them other than "Because I am evil!"
I think Kreia, from KOTOR2 was a better villain than all subsequent ones. In fact, even the other, underdeveloped villains of KOTOR2 have kernels of stories more interesting than what we have seen since then.
But otherwise, I am divided on making evil character understandable/relatable. We have had a number of all-too relatable villains in recent tv productions, and I think it backfires into a celebration of might and 'badassery' , rather than building empathy for a character's torment... Star Wars was a fairy tale epic at its base, not a character study. Fairy tale villains serve the purpose of asserting clearly the antagonist as an ideal-typical incarnation of evil.
I think that is fair, and would probably agree if the franchise was limited to just a singular storyline, say the movies.
But it seems to be branching off quite a bit into different viewpoints, and looking for a more expanded identity than just the straight up good vs. evil fairy tale trope.
I think sticking to just that model is inevitably going to get stale. It isn't a bad model, but it is rather limited, there is only so many times you can tell the basic story of good guy/badguywhoonlyexiststoopposethegoodguy in the same universe before you need to start getting a little more expansive in your approach, IMO.
That seems more likely to happen in the new TV show than in the movies. It's hard to build a blockbuster film around a villain figure (it's been done, mind) and Disney aren't going to take the risk.
I could see it working for one of the "A Star Wars Story" movies they're doing. The main franchise setting should stay with the typical tropes though in my opinion. The opening of the universe/setting is, for me, one of the most interesting aspects of the Disney buyout. I loved the Clone Trooper novels by Karen Traviss, the Clone focused animated episodes, and the background character/non-main character driven books and cartoon episodes for the most part. The ability to bring a movie level of production to such things is awesome, a la Rogue One. While imperfect, it was definitely my favorite of the new movies that have been made.
Quote from: Oexmelin on October 10, 2018, 10:42:13 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2018, 09:48:45 AM
This was done kind of with Vader, but not really. Anakin was a good guy who became evil, and then returned to good. I would like to see an attempt to tell the story from the side of a antagonist that makes you understand better why it makes sense for them other than "Because I am evil!"
I think Kreia, from KOTOR2 was a better villain than all subsequent ones. In fact, even the other, underdeveloped villains of KOTOR2 have kernels of stories more interesting than what we have seen since then.
But otherwise, I am divided on making evil character understandable/relatable. We have had a number of all-too relatable villains in recent tv productions, and I think it backfires into a celebration of might and 'badassery' , rather than building empathy for a character's torment... Star Wars was a fairy tale epic at its base, not a character study. Fairy tale villains serve the purpose of asserting clearly the antagonist as an ideal-typical incarnation of evil.
I completely agree. I don't think Star Wars works at all outside of that fairy tale concept it is based on. I find the attempts to explore the concepts behind it really bad.
Thought KOTOR2 really worked and I think the reason was that it was a computer RPG so you, the viewer, were able to react to what Kreia and the other two villains were saying and doing instead of being told how you should react to it. So it was a very well done deconstruction of the themes. But I do not think it works outside of that format. Well ok it may work for somebody but it really does not work for me.
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2018, 11:08:13 AM
I think sticking to just that model is inevitably going to get stale. It isn't a bad model, but it is rather limited, there is only so many times you can tell the basic story of good guy/badguywhoonlyexiststoopposethegoodguy in the same universe before you need to start getting a little more expansive in your approach, IMO.
Well that is the thing. There is just not that much meat on the Star Wars bone to chew on. Star Wars is very well designed to tell that basic story but little else. At least that is my feeling.
Quote from: Valmy on October 11, 2018, 08:24:19 AM
Star Wars is very well designed to tell that basic story but little else. At least that is my feeling.
the beauty of Star Wars is all the holes that can be filled by talented authors.
I recently read a novel centered on Asaj Ventress and some Jedi who appeared in one the Clone Wars episode. I really liked that novel. It's Star Wars, it's Good vs Evil, it's corruption and redemption, but damn, it works so well... It's targetted at teenagers, mostly, but it's so mature compared to twilightesque-crap they get these days...
I don't want to defend Twilight more than necessary but how is it not mature?
I've only seen half a Twilight movie but it definitely was not mature. Outcast girl meets dark handsome stranger teenage fantasy.
Quote from: Grey Fox on October 11, 2018, 01:48:31 PM
I don't want to defend Twilight more than necessary but how is it not mature?
love triangles, teenage love fantaisies, vampires that sparkle in sunlight, etc,
Finished the first season of Clone Wars. Such an odd show - it's blatantly written as a children's program, and not a particularly sophisticated one (Rebels definitely aimed older), yet the death toll per episode can reach the thousands, with several onscreen ones.
Season 1 is incredibly uneven. If I would have to single out memorable episodes or moments it would be the Clone Trooper focused ones Rookies (with the troopers defending an outpost) and Innocents of Ryloth where Waxer and Boil find themselves in the company of a Twi'Lek child. Lair of Grievous was the first hint at some darkness in the show when one of the Junior Jedi just gets killed. And I liked the introduction of Cad Bane in the last episode of the season. One of the cooler bounty hunter characters in Star Wars.
Quote from: Syt on October 11, 2018, 05:08:58 PM
Season 1 is incredibly uneven. If I would have to single out memorable episodes or moments it would be the Clone Trooper focused ones Rookies (with the troopers defending an outpost) and Innocents of Ryloth where Waxer and Boil find themselves in the company of a Twi'Lek child. Lair of Grievous was the first hint at some darkness in the show when one of the Junior Jedi just gets killed. And I liked the introduction of Cad Bane in the last episode of the season. One of the cooler bounty hunter characters in Star Wars.
Yeah, those were definitely the highlights. I also liked the one where Ventress rescues Nute Gunray.
So, read this theory on the font of all knowledge and stupidity, reddit. TL;DR: Palpatine remote-sapped Padme's life to keep dying Anakin alive. Interesting premise, but I find the evidence flimsy.
QuotePretty much the scene of Vader's "birth" and Padme's death are synced down to the heart beats. Anakin's goes away, then Padme's does, then Vader's comes back. Suggesting Padme's death gives life to Vader. Sound design has stated this was done intentionally.
They make it explicit that the droids could not find any medical reason why she was dying. It wasn't from a broken trachea or something. Also, Obi Wan made sure she was ok before he dueled Anakin after he choked her. Something else was at play. The droid suggested her will to live was slipping which I think is the red herring. It doesn't make sense for many reasons (having just given birth is a pretty good reason to want to live, hormones and all). She hasn't given up on Anny. Something else has to be to blame/influencing her will/capacity to live. A droid cannot sense the Force. Yoda said that they had lost their ability to sense what was going on so Obi Wan was blind too.
Next, is that Palpatine told Vader Anakin killed her. He has NO way of knowing her state as she was taken by Obi Wan well before he arrived. Unless he was able to sense and possibly manipulate the strong ties/connection between the two through the Force. His knowing about Padme is a clue that he played a part.
The smirk/smile is what sells it imo. Palpatine says "you killed her", Vader cracks and is fully under his control, and he knows that his plans have come to fruition. By blaming Vader for what he (Palpatine) did, he can leverage that guilt to his own ends. It's all manipulation through lies. Also, Padme alive was the greatest threat to his plans and capacity to control Vader. She needed to be out of the picture, and convincing Vader he was to blame is the best way.
And finally, the whole point of Anakin teaming up with Palpatine was to use the Force to "create and preserve life". Palpatine never explained how this is done or what the costs were. And here we have Anakin preserved and the birth of Vader. Palpatine never lied about this power being real. But he used it to make Vader, not save Padme. Padme was the sacrifice.
You'd think something this big like this would have been canonized in some of the Luceno books dealing with Vader/Tarkin/Palpie and the early Empire or in some other form by now.
Not the worst idea, but certainly it's not on the screen.
Pretty cool, actually.
I suspect the people who actually wrote that entire plot would read this and think "Damn, I wish we had actually thought of that!"
I prefer evil jar jar as far as theories go.
https://www.starwars.com/news/pedro-pascal-revealed-as-the-mandalorian
QuoteLucasfilm is pleased to announce the cast of the first-ever Star Wars live-action series — The Mandalorian.
Pedro Pascal (Narcos) has been cast in the title role as a lone Mandalorian gunfighter in the outer reaches of the galaxy. He is joined by Gina Carano (Deadpool), Giancarlo Esposito (Breaking Bad), Emily Swallow (Supernatural), Carl Weathers (Predator), Omid Abtahi (American Gods), Werner Herzog (Grizzly Man), and Nick Nolte (Affliction).
"We're having a great time working with this incredibly talented group and excited for everyone to see what we're up to," says Executive Producer Jon Favreau.
Currently in production, The Mandalorian is written and executive produced by Jon Favreau, with Dave Filoni (Star Wars: The Clone Wars, Star Wars Rebels) directing the first episode and serving as executive producer alongside Kathleen Kennedy and Colin Wilson. Additional episodic directors include Deborah Chow (Jessica Jones), Rick Famuyiwa (Dope), Bryce Dallas Howard (Solemates), and Taika Waititi (Thor: Ragnarok).
The highly-anticipated series will be exclusive to Disney+, The Walt Disney Company's upcoming direct-to-consumer streaming service, which is set to launch in the U.S. in late 2019.
I always thought Star Wars needed more Werner Herzog. :lol: :hmm:
(https://pm1.narvii.com/6317/ab663651ef9db476c4873e4c6c4ad3f7baf7fb45_hq.jpg)
Definately on my watchlist!
What are the odds this is going to be actually good, and force me to subscribe to yet another streaming service? :hmm:
Quote from: Barrister on December 12, 2018, 03:55:32 PM
What are the odds this is going to be actually good, and force me to subscribe to yet another streaming service? :hmm:
Pretty high. It's Star Wars. Even when it's bad, it's great. ;) :D
Paging Syt. For a Christmas present I was thinking on buying some of the new-canon Star Wars novels, since i know Syt's read some would love to know which ones don't suck. The recipient is a 30-something who is a huge Star Wars geek.
Quote from: celedhring on December 13, 2018, 04:15:21 PM
Paging Syt. For a Christmas present I was thinking on buying some of the new-canon Star Wars novels, since i know Syt's read some would love to know which ones don't suck. The recipient is a 30-something who is a huge Star Wars geek.
Trouble with this is a huge 30-something Star Wars geek may have already read the new novels.
Haven't read the latest, but of new canon I've read:
- Aftermath trilogy
Liked it a lot, but the style is highly divisive - present tense, short sentences, more how you would narrate the plot to someone. Also features gay characters (though it's not a central defining trait or paraded around - this person is living with a same sex partner, or person A comes on to person B who refuses because they prefer their own gender - they later have a partner).
Covers the aftermath of Endor, the liberation of Kashyyk and the Battle of Jakku. Lots of background backstory. Also adds little vignettes/scenes showing what's happening in other parts of the galaxy. Adds some really cool characters like Grand Admiral Rae Sloane, or the murderous, childlike, dancing droid Mr Bones.
- Catalyst
Prequel novel to Rogue One, stretching from the Clone Wars to when the Ersos move to their little exile. Great backstory, doing a good job of fleshing out Krennic and Galen Erso, and making the movie better for it.
- Thrawn
About how Thrawn joined the Empire. It's all right. Also covers the rise of Governor Pryce. I don't like Zahn's style of writing; it feels amateurish, but the yarn is ok. The weakest of the books I've read.
- Twilight Company
A tie in with the first EA Battlefront game that ended up very good. Follows a Rebel infantry squad through a series of missions. It's kind of Band of Brothers in Star Wars.
- Tarkin
Early days of the Empire, with Tarkin and Vader dealing with conspiracy and sedition.
- Lost Stars
Young adult novel. Two kids from an Imperial backwater join the Imperial Academy. Alderaan becomes a turning point. She stays with the Empire, he ends up with smugglers and later Rebels. They intersect during key points of the original trilogy, and fall in love. They're reunited at the battle of Jakku in a dramatic moment. Slightly sappy at times, but I thought it was interesting to see an inside view of how Imperials dealt with the destruction of Alderaan and the Death Star, and the rationalizations they make to keep following the regime.
A link to all current canon adult novels is here (it's not many): http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Canon_adult_novels
Quote- Thrawn
About how Thrawn joined the Empire. It's all right. Also covers the rise of Governor Pryce. I don't like Zahn's style of writing; it feels amateurish, but the yarn is ok. The weakest of the books I've read.
I liked it a lot, and I'm a fan of Zhan's style of writing :)
To each their own tastes. :)
Thanks Syt!
He loved Rogue One, might buy him the prequel one then.
Quote from: Barrister on December 13, 2018, 04:30:41 PM
Quote from: celedhring on December 13, 2018, 04:15:21 PM
Paging Syt. For a Christmas present I was thinking on buying some of the new-canon Star Wars novels, since i know Syt's read some would love to know which ones don't suck. The recipient is a 30-something who is a huge Star Wars geek.
Trouble with this is a huge 30-something Star Wars geek may have already read the new novels.
Checked with his wife, and he hasn't yet.
Here's a special something. A Chinese bootleg comic of original Star Wars from 1980. It seems the artist hasn't seen the movie, but probably has seen pictures of Empire, because designs from that movie keep showing up (including Mandalorians as Stormtroopers), but nothing from the original movie.
It's rather fascinating. How to tell a story you've only had narrated to you/read about? :D
The links come with translations of the Chinese texts.
http://www.nickstember.com/chinese-star-wars-comic-part-1-6/
http://www.nickstember.com/chinese-star-wars-comic-part-2-6-jedi/
http://www.nickstember.com/chinese-star-wars-comic-part-3-6-hyper-speed/
http://www.nickstember.com/chinese-star-wars-comic-part-4-of-6-thx-1138/
http://www.nickstember.com/chinese-star-wars-comic-part-5-6-find-weak-point-death-star-destroy/
http://www.nickstember.com/chinese-star-wars-comic-part-6-6/
Over 140 amazing pictures. A few here:
Capturing the princess:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua15-1024x824.jpg&hash=d4062d677f5a6c526c4a3d135d5eb75c0b4eacbe)
Luke, Owen, and Beru having dinner:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua33-1024x840.jpg&hash=6260760902fc767b989a5c227e5d873c8aa330bd)
Sandpeople:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua42-1024x804.jpg&hash=379776e068fbbd297c17368b3fb9287c3dec6437)
Jedi Knight Obi-Wan Kenobi:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua-53-1024x786.jpg&hash=aacf9b4b8514a2d29d960acbcd67a0c2ec7956d0)
Tarkin, Vader, and the Princess:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua-66-1024x819.jpg&hash=b15c9c3fa3473b14e8385e07e3ea2912d644c25b)
Ben digs out the lightsaber for Luke:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua-54-1024x781.jpg&hash=edcddcce4170476d577252c1f53065303b664876)
Vader on board the Death Star:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua-781-1024x826.jpg&hash=97deb5a7794276115b02c3ae29eeb3ecd99474b3)
Vader addresses a Stormtrooper squad:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua-811-1024x809.jpg&hash=8ebb8ab0a5f05579da00ba611224b7690c052fa8)
In the Death Star. Or at Starfleet HQ in San Francisco, take your pick. :P
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua-87_Page_08-1024x836.jpg&hash=dfa05dc187ed829af9fc336c96a576af0930b6e4)
Rebels get ready, Solo gets his reward:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua-87_Page_34-1024x824.jpg&hash=7eeba0cebf135ef3d3d4d4c26383726e02fdef33)
Luke Waves at the Millennium Falcon:
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nickstember.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F06%2FChinese_star_wars_comic_manhua_llianhuanhua-138-1024x788.jpg&hash=aafff125853cb64a1ee6632ff57d4700ed4d027c)
Just a small selection from a rather trippy comic.
Rather blatant product placement at Obi Wan's. :lol:
Quote from: The Larch on December 17, 2018, 02:21:26 PM
Rather blatant product placement at Obi Wan's. :lol:
Even bootlegs have ads :lol:
Love the "Kennedy Space Center" being "The Target". :D
Quote from: Syt on December 17, 2018, 01:57:07 PM
It's rather fascinating. How to tell a story you've only had narrated to you/read about? :D
It's a crucial part of Dai Sije's
Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress, which is partly autobiographical. In it, the narrator, sent to reeducation in a distant village during the Cultural Revolution, is periodically freed from his agricultural labor to go see movies in town, and narrate them back to the village.
Quote from: Oexmelin on December 17, 2018, 03:06:03 PM
Quote from: Syt on December 17, 2018, 01:57:07 PM
It's rather fascinating. How to tell a story you've only had narrated to you/read about? :D
It's a crucial part of Dai Sije's Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress, which is partly autobiographical. In it, the narrator, sent to reeducation in a distant village during the Cultural Revolution, is periodically freed from his agricultural labor to go see movies in town, and narrate them back to the village.
:cool:
Interesting story.
Quote from: Malthus on December 17, 2018, 02:56:20 PM
Love the "Kennedy Space Center" being "The Target". :D
Perfectly coherent with the Rebel Alliance being the NASA. There's a method to the madness indeed :lol:
So looks like the old fan theory is now canon:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DvWSd0xWsAISh_m.jpg)
So goofy. Why couldn't they have just made that whole exchange from Episode I non-canon? The whole midi-chlorians thing has been awful since it was brought up. This is the (hopefully) final cherry on top.
Everything done with the approval of the IP holder at the time is canon.
Finally watched Solo. Mindless and ultimately somewhat forgettable action flick, but I was ok with that. Interesting to see how elements of the non-movie canon are crossing over to the big screen, like the Pyke, or Kessel, which were previously only seen in Clone Wars. The battle sequence with the Imperials on Mimban made me wish we would get a proper war movie at some point.
In tone and writing, this mostly felt like something that could have been a longer arc in the Rebels animated series.
I doubt that there's going to be a sequel. However, I could imagine that there could be some cross-over with Maul and potentially Emily Clarke's character in the Mandalorian series. Their paychecks should be affordable for a Disney TV show.
I saw Solo a while back and it was ok, though not a strong showing in the series. But it was kinda cool seeing his back story.
Everything in Solo that wasn't fanservice was actually decent. Harrelson's and Clarke's characters were pretty interesting, and they probably do a better job of portraying what Han Solo's arc should have been than Han Solo himself.
Quote from: celedhring on February 07, 2019, 10:27:21 AM
Everything in Solo that wasn't fanservice was actually decent.
Yep. The movie was actually pleasantly surprising, but still pretty run-of-the-mill due to the fan-service junk weighing it down.
I wanted to see more Stormtrooper trench warfare. :(
Btw, I'm really looking forward to the new Clone Wars episodes that are being worked on. When Clone Wars was canceled, some of the scripts were very advanced in production, some stories were considered canon, and some were later put into comic form (I think the planned Darth Maul arc was an example).
Quote from: celedhring on February 07, 2019, 10:27:21 AM
Everything in Solo that wasn't fanservice was actually decent. Harrelson's and Clarke's characters were pretty interesting, and they probably do a better job of portraying what Han Solo's arc should have been than Han Solo himself.
The Han Solo or the Indiana Jones fan service? :P
I admit the soundtrack was completely forgettable, except for the call outs to the TIE-Fighter attack in ANH and the Asteroid Field music in ESB. Not gonna lie, those moments gave me chills.
When I first saw the marauders my first thought was, "Wait, are those like the Cloud Riders from the old Marvel comics?" Apparently the similarity was unintentional, but when the production crew noticed, they adopted the gang's name. Also, one of their rides is a Arrogantus-X Skyblade-221, a reference to Serji-X Arrogantus from the (daft) Marvel story (the Marvel arc was basically Seven Samurai/Magnificent Seven ... except they were 8).
I liked Solo a lot when I watched it last week. Unfortunately I felt bold enough to watch Last Jedi just after and that one really really sucked. Of the later movies Rogue One and Solo have been the ones with decent amounts of quality and proper Star Wars feel to them, Force Awakens and Last Jedi just poor quality in just about everything.
I agree that the main plotline movies have been mediocre to bad since about the third movie, but that the movies set in the universe have been pretty good. The problem is, I think, that the whole concept of the Force wasn't very well thought out, and so the main plot about the use of the Force for good or evil just never jelled. It seems that any directors who want to make a movie that features the Force should, by that very desire, be disqualified from making one.
It doesn't help that FA and TLJ were bad movies in every way, even ignoring the bad plots. Even the Ep 1-3 movies were better (assuming that the silly JarJar Binks stuff was supposed to pay off and Lucas just lost his nerve).
Quote from: Delirium on February 09, 2019, 09:02:37 AM
I liked Solo a lot when I watched it last week. Unfortunately I felt bold enough to watch Last Jedi just after and that one really really sucked. Of the later movies Rogue One and Solo have been the ones with decent amounts of quality and proper Star Wars feel to them, Force Awakens and Last Jedi just poor quality in just about everything.
THANK YOU! I feel exactly the same way.
FA was ok, a retread of the previous stories with the Abrams "I enjoyed that, as long as I don't think about it at all and realize how it's incredibly dumb" tax. I actually liked TLJ a bit just for being so wacky and different even though it had serious failings.
Rogue One is definitely the best post Empire Star Wars movie. I haven't finished Solo. It felt like such a generic heist flick with a genre wrapping I quit about 2/3rds through.
I'll still take any of them over the prequels though.
TLJ was a failed movie... I appreciate what they were aiming for (subverting the saga's cliches) but the execution was really flawed and unexciting - at the end of the day there's a reason why those clichés are clichés, so if you want to do away with them, you better have something really good in place.
Also, there were some genuine "am I watching a prequel?" moments (the space casino sequence) that scared the hell out of me.
TLJ definitely took some inspiration from Lucas's prequels. Of the new movies I suspect it's Lucas's favorite.
I'm of the opinion that all the movies after ESB suck, though ROTJ is acceptable. Prequels were embarrassing, TFA was wank fan service, TLJ blew up like the Death Star (or should I say Starkiller Base?), Rogue One was utterly wooden fan service, and I never saw Solo because I don't think I'm ever going to watch another new Star Wars movie ever again.
I freely admit I suppose I just don't like Star Wars anymore ( except for the OT) :P
Right there with you FunkMonk.
One advantage that Rogue One and Solo share may be that they do not try to do too much, they just need to be cool films set in the Star Wars universe, no depth required, no need to reinvent anything. Ep 7 and 8 try to do that because they need to shake off ep 1-3 but just do not succeed...I just cannot see any redeeming qualities in FA or LJ at all. Plot, script, characters, everything is just too weak. Very disappointing. Phantom Menace looks really good now, in comparison...at least there is some logic and fairly interesting characters there. Plus the Queen's Gambit board game is quite good.
I have to question someone's opinion on the new Star Wars movies when they say insane shit like that.
Quote from: celedhring on February 10, 2019, 08:04:07 AM
Quote from: Delirium on February 09, 2019, 08:27:56 PM
Phantom Menace looks really good now
No. Just no.
Phantom Menace is easily better than TLJ. That doesn't make it good, of course, but the first 15 minutes of TLJ has more "kill me now to make it stop" moments than are in all of TPM.
The entire idea of the new movies is just kind of stupid.
The New Order, the "good guys" suddenly being some kind of rag tag outfit after the war was won against the Empire, none of it makes any fucking sense at all.
The most annoying thing to me is that none of it is necessary. Any semi-competent writer could create a plausible world where the protagonists have a meaningful conflict with whatever it is you need to create in a universe as large as the entire fictional galaxy.
I tend to agree. Obviously of all the Empire's structure wouldn't just fall apart either...but the new plot just feels like it's recycling the Rebel Alliance back into being the RA again, and created a new, lamer version of the Emperor...who was also seemingly above the Emperor's level the entire time. Makes the Sith look some bad multi-level marketing scheme.
The genre of the original trilogy was epic. It followed the tropes of the genre, which made it recognizable, but with incredible visual flair. Ever since, all attempts to continue (or extend) *that* story with other forms of sensibility that would otherwise preserve the epic nature of the original story have failed, for good reason. You can't begin with the good guys triumphant in an epic. Nor can an epic have the moral ambiguity and political manoeuvering that, say, a "let's now win the peace" storyline would have imposed. That's why when Sauron dies, the orcs vanish - Tolkien's conceit to his time, and his war experience, was the return to the Shire - and that bit is now clearly the least understood of LoTR (with perhaps the songs, in the books).
The prequel could have done it, with more Beowulf, and less Days of Our Lives - the doomed journey of a cursed hero. But after? I can't see a good way to do it with the same characters/universe that would preserve the epic tone, unless perhaps on the model of the curse which requires the young inexperienced hero to seek out the wise and benevolent emperor from afar, i.e. Rey seeking Luke for whatever reason could have taken a lot longer. But it would have changed the scale quite a bit into a much more personal journey - which is what I thought it would be after seeing that beautiful trailer for TFA.
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 10, 2019, 01:18:26 PM
Makes the Sith look some bad multi-level marketing scheme.
Only less evil.
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2019, 12:54:54 PM
The entire idea of the new movies is just kind of stupid.
The New Order, the "good guys" suddenly being some kind of rag tag outfit after the war was won against the Empire, none of it makes any fucking sense at all.
The most annoying thing to me is that none of it is necessary. Any semi-competent writer could create a plausible world where the protagonists have a meaningful conflict with whatever it is you need to create in a universe as large as the entire fictional galaxy.
It's explained somewhat, but mostly in novels - which, I agree, is not ideal when you just want to watch and follow the movies as most people will do, and to most people it won't make sense. I've always been of the opinion that movies should stand on their own. Additional media like books or comics can fill in some blanks, or add more background, but they shouldn't be required to understand the story.
(After Endor the Empire retreats faster than the Republic can follow, creating a vacuum of power in various places. After the scorched earth policy of the Empire and the final battle at Jakku, the remnants of the Imperials head to the Unknown Regions as part of a contingency. They rebuild there. Meanwhile, the Republic is struggling internally, mostly thanks to two factions - one supporting strong decentralization, the other a strong central authority. Leia and the Resistance believe the First Order is violating the disarmament treaties and plan an attack, but they're considered paranoid, relics of a bygone war who can't let go of the conflict. Some worlds support them covertly.
The "Centralist" faction is meanwhile covertly supported by the First Order, and when the Hosnian System is destroyed by Starkiller base, they support the First Order openly which allows them to take over.
At least that's my understanding, might be off a bit. :P
Much of the info re: Republic vs. Resistance vs. First Order is contained in a cut scene from TFA where Leia talks to her liaison on Hosnian Prime who is trying to gather more support - kind of inexplicable to me why this was cut.)
Quote from: Syt on February 10, 2019, 04:33:40 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 10, 2019, 12:54:54 PM
The entire idea of the new movies is just kind of stupid.
The New Order, the "good guys" suddenly being some kind of rag tag outfit after the war was won against the Empire, none of it makes any fucking sense at all.
The most annoying thing to me is that none of it is necessary. Any semi-competent writer could create a plausible world where the protagonists have a meaningful conflict with whatever it is you need to create in a universe as large as the entire fictional galaxy.
It's explained somewhat, but mostly in novels - which, I agree, is not ideal when you just want to watch and follow the movies as most people will do, and to most people it won't make sense. I've always been of the opinion that movies should stand on their own. Additional media like books or comics can fill in some blanks, or add more background, but they shouldn't be required to understand the story.
(After Endor the Empire retreats faster than the Republic can follow, creating a vacuum of power in various places. After the scorched earth policy of the Empire and the final battle at Jakku, the remnants of the Imperials head to the Unknown Regions as part of a contingency. They rebuild there. Meanwhile, the Republic is struggling internally, mostly thanks to two factions - one supporting strong decentralization, the other a strong central authority. Leia and the Resistance believe the First Order is violating the disarmament treaties and plan an attack, but they're considered paranoid, relics of a bygone war who can't let go of the conflict. Some worlds support them covertly.
The "Centralist" faction is meanwhile covertly supported by the First Order, and when the Hosnian System is destroyed by Starkiller base, they support the First Order openly which allows them to take over.
At least that's my understanding, might be off a bit. :P
Much of the info re: Republic vs. Resistance vs. First Order is contained in a cut scene from TFA where Leia talks to her liaison on Hosnian Prime who is trying to gather more support - kind of inexplicable to me why this was cut.)
I appreciate that Syt but I am pretty sure the book writers came up with that to explain the ridiculous premise of the new movies.
i kind of like Force Awakens, except for the new Death Star idiocy.
Last Jedi was incredibly horrible. I struggle to think of a worse movie overall, let alone in the Star Wars universe. Allegedly, whatever overarching plot lines Abrams had in mind when making FA has been thrown out by the hack making Last Jedi, so the whole sequel trilogy is now guaranteedly ruined.
Solo was ok.
Rogue One was pretty good, and easily the best of the new bunch.
However, I am really getting de-sensitised for Star Wars stuff, with all this stuff coming out. When all you had was 3 movies, that made every scene, ship, etc. special and let your imagination fill in a lot of the holes. Now with SW coming out of our ears its less fun.
I don't think I'll even go to the 3rd movie in the sequel trilogy, but mostly because the Last Jedi ruined all chance of me being interested in the story. Is it even releasing this year? Or at all?
The best hope we have is that critical backlash against TLJ is such that they have to make a comeback for the trilogy finale.
But it feels like that's going to be a Hail Mary.
I feel like it's going to be another JJ Abrams nostalgia-fest. Probably a 4th Death Star, too.
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 11, 2019, 12:23:17 PM
The best hope we have is that critical backlash against TLJ is such that they have to make a comeback for the trilogy finale.
But it feels like that's going to be a Hail Mary.
They have nothing.
There is really nothing more to do with Star Wars after the original trilogy. People have been trying to find something interesting about it ever since and have failed every single time.
I got a little interested again with the KOTOR series but I think that was just an aberration. And besides it was largely just Bioware making a Bioware game and Obsidian making an Obsidian game and they just happened to take place in a Star Wars context more than anything else.
Quote from: Habbaku on February 11, 2019, 12:27:59 PM
I feel like it's going to be another JJ Abrams nostalgia-fest. Probably a 4th Death Star, too.
I remember as a Kindergartner thinking it was dumb to bring back the Death Star for The Return of the Jedi. Not only did Abrams bring it back but he fucking made fun of himself for doing it in his own movie. I mean if you know it is lame then don't do it, apologizing for it in the script is not going to make up for it.
Quote from: Valmy on February 11, 2019, 12:30:03 PM
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 11, 2019, 12:23:17 PM
The best hope we have is that critical backlash against TLJ is such that they have to make a comeback for the trilogy finale.
But it feels like that's going to be a Hail Mary.
They have nothing.
There is really nothing more to do with Star Wars after the original trilogy. People have been trying to find something interesting about it ever since and have failed every single time.
I got a little interested again with the KOTOR series but I think that was just an aberration. And besides it was largely just Bioware making a Bioware game and Obsidian making an Obsidian game and they just happened to take place in a Star Wars context more than anything else.
And EA has destroyed Star Wars as a video game brand with its last Star Wars game, Battlefront 2.
Star Wars is dead lmao
Quote from: Valmy on February 11, 2019, 12:30:03 PM
They have nothing.
There is really nothing more to do with Star Wars after the original trilogy. People have been trying to find something interesting about it ever since and have failed every single time.
I got a little interested again with the KOTOR series but I think that was just an aberration. And besides it was largely just Bioware making a Bioware game and Obsidian making an Obsidian game and they just happened to take place in a Star Wars context more than anything else.
There are plenty of things you can do with Star Wars, but recycling the hits like TFA did is the worst option for developing the franchise. That only leads to dead ends. TLJ didn't work but at least it tried something different.
Rogue One is the one real bright spot, but considering the way the studio handled Solo I doubt they'll be allowing much creative freedom in future Star Wars movies.
Quote from: Tonitrus on February 11, 2019, 12:23:17 PM
The best hope we have is that critical backlash against TLJ is such that they have to make a comeback for the trilogy finale.
But it feels like that's going to be a Hail Mary.
The thing is TLJ didn't have a "critical backlash". Critics enjoyed it. It has a 91% "Tomatometer" score, for example. And I thought it was a great movie. But yes a minority of fans really, really hated it.
I hope they continue to do something interesting with Episode 9, but since it's Abrams again I am afraid it is going to be a fanservice-filled crowd pleaser.
Quote from: Barrister on February 11, 2019, 02:42:53 PM
It has a 91% "Tomatometer" score, for example.
:wacko: I wonder what they praised? I have seen B movies with more artistic value, and at least those are fun.
Though to be fair I didn't hate it. I just thought it was a terrible story, terribly told about terribly conceived characters. But I lack the emotional attachment to really hate it. But then I have never really been a Star Wars fan outside of enjoying the KOTOR games and liking the original movies when I was a small child.
Quote from: Valmy on February 11, 2019, 02:50:58 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 11, 2019, 02:42:53 PM
It has a 91% "Tomatometer" score, for example.
:wacko: I wonder what they praised? I have seen B movies with more artistic value, and at least those are fun.
Though to be fair I didn't hate it. I just thought it was a terrible story, terribly told about terribly conceived characters. But I lack the emotional attachment to really hate it. But then I have never really been a Star Wars fan outside of enjoying the KOTOR games and liking the original movies when I was a small child.
It has many scenes that are just beautifully shot. Going out and breaking so many sci-fi tropes was awesome to see.
I think the problem people have with the movie are many plot holes or instances which don't seem to fit within the "rules" of Star Wars.
I think it was just not a good movie. :hmm:
I think critics went all critic and rated the trope-breaking, plus it indeed was very well shot.
As I said, I appreciated them wanting to try different things, I just think these different things weren't much good.
Quote from: Barrister on February 11, 2019, 02:42:53 PMBut yes a minority of fans really, really hated it.
Some of which celebrated the relatively low box office results of Solo as proof that their boycott campaign worked. :wacko:
Quote from: Syt on February 11, 2019, 05:14:07 PM
Quote from: Barrister on February 11, 2019, 02:42:53 PMBut yes a minority of fans really, really hated it.
Some of which celebrated the relatively low box office results of Solo as proof that their boycott campaign worked. :wacko:
Are they the incels who think the SJWs have ruined Star Wars? :lol:
"Rey is a Mary Sue!! There are no positive portrayals of white males in TLJ!!!!!"
Tbf there aren't any positive portrayals of nearly anybody in TLJ.
I saw the movie. It seemed okay to me. Note: I don't normally care that much about Star Wars.
The plot holes alone ruined it for me. Like when purple hair admiral lady went to warp speed and destroyed the big bad ship. I laughed out loud in the theater and wasn't alone.
In the 7 movies preceding that, there were countless times when this strategy would have saved the day. Most notably against the death stars. If one person alone can pilot a huge ass ship and then just warp it into another then huh I dunno. Why don't they use that all the time then.
It was just dumb, non-sensical stuff all movie long. Pretty boring too.
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 10, 2019, 02:23:34 PM
You can't begin with the good guys triumphant in an epic. Nor can an epic have the moral ambiguity and political manoeuvering that, say, a "let's now win the peace" storyline would have imposed.
Obviously, you have never read anything written in what is now the "Legends Universe" over the last 30 years.
No, I haven't read any of those, as they have zero interest for me. I am talking about the conventions of a genre. If you start with good guys triumphant, you are going against the general conventions of an epic. It doesn't mean you can't write sprawling, convoluted narratives - it means that to make it back into an epic, you have to find a way to bring your hero low again, and invent yet another existential threat. It can be done, but it dilutes the strengths of the genre (and frequently makes for mediocre storytelling). Similarly, a subtle narrative of political intrigue doesn't fit well with epic, for they deal in absolutes - partly why the prequels had trouble interweaving the corruption of Anakin with the corruption of the Republic. It required a different genre.
Quote from: Zoupa on February 11, 2019, 07:34:53 PM
The plot holes alone ruined it for me. Like when purple hair admiral lady went to warp speed and destroyed the big bad ship. I laughed out loud in the theater and wasn't alone.
hyperspace.
Also, not really a plot hole. Just something they picked from the formerly known as
Expanded universeQuote
In the 7 movies preceding that, there were countless times when this strategy would have saved the day. Most notably against the death stars. If one person alone can pilot a huge ass ship and then just warp it into another then huh I dunno. Why don't they use that all the time then.
Really, I don't know... Why won't a destroyer sink an aircraft carrier by ramming it? It seems a viable strategy to me, it's faster and it can punch quite a hole.
In WWII the Japanese used airplanes loaded with explosives to sink a carrier or two. Why didn't they win the war that way?
Think.
It's been told since the first Star Wars what are the risks of a blind jump.
They used that strategy because their vessel was damaged and was of similar size to the New Order one and was devoid of any life sign except the captain who sacrificed herself.
If you're dealing with a fleet to fleet battle, how efficient do you think it would be? Wouldn't the other ships just all switch fire to the ramming carrier? And if you are desperate for resources and you face an ennemy which has plenty of, how efficient do you think your strategy would be to win the war?
It was used as a desperate measure because the Empire was tracking this particular carrier through hyperspace. It was a damaged ship requiring extensive repairs. They only needed time to evacuate all of their people to an old base, where hopefully they could launch a distress signal and evade to fight another day. Classic defensive move, sacrifice a unit to save the rest.
Nothing dumb about that part.
Quote
It was just dumb, non-sensical stuff all movie long. Pretty boring too.
there are many worst things than that in the movie. Like the traval to another planet, far-far away, take their sweet time, come back, in what? less than a day? That doesn't conform to existing travel time within the Star Wars universe.
A Jedi can extend air, that is known since Kotor II. But they can't survive the cold void of space, they can't form a personal shield. They can't do reverse telekinesis either, Obi Wan told us the Force is what surrounds every living thing. It doesn't surround a fixed wall. You can push the air to go through the wall, you can enhance your muscles too. But nope, can't survive the cold void of space and drag yourself back to the ship, even by meditating prior to the explosion.
That you don't like the plots built by previous book is totally okay. In 30 years, there was a lot of crap written and drawn. That you don't respect basic rules established by the previous, very popular movies is just dumb.
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 14, 2019, 04:36:41 PM
No, I haven't read any of those, as they have zero interest for me. I am talking about the conventions of a genre. If you start with good guys triumphant, you are going against the general conventions of an epic. It doesn't mean you can't write sprawling, convoluted narratives - it means that to make it back into an epic, you have to find a way to bring your hero low again, and invent yet another existential threat. It can be done, but it dilutes the strengths of the genre (and frequently makes for mediocre storytelling). Similarly, a subtle narrative of political intrigue doesn't fit well with epic, for they deal in absolutes - partly why the prequels had trouble interweaving the corruption of Anakin with the corruption of the Republic. It required a different genre.
I dunno - Star Wars itself is just a throwback to the early 1930s serials, which seemed to have little problem coming up with an existential threat of the week.
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 14, 2019, 04:36:41 PM
No, I haven't read any of those, as they have zero interest for me.
Then why do you assume that there are "conventions" which can't be moved, at the risk of creating a bad story when you deliberately ignore what does not fit to your pre-determined conclusion? :)
QuoteIt can be done, but it dilutes the strengths of the genre (and frequently makes for mediocre storytelling). Similarly, a subtle narrative of political intrigue doesn't fit well with epic, for they deal in absolutes - partly why the prequels had trouble interweaving the corruption of Anakin with the corruption of the Republic. It required a different genre.
I totally disagree. Most of the Star Wars books start with a strong Republic and the Jedi order, or at least Luke, is at the top. But yeah, obviously, there isn't much of a story with an invincible hero.
So of course, it needs to be in jeopardy by something. The New Republic needs to be threatend, Luke needs to be threatened, there must be struggles to overcome the apparent deficit in skills/strategy, obviously.
But it makes for really, really interesting stories. Sometimes.
So, yeah, you can make an excellent story when the "heroes" start in a position of power. And you don't need to utterly destroy everything around them or cut them of from all support to make it work.
re: Admiral Holdo jumping to lightspeed into the imperial ship - no it's definitely a plot hole. Consider if you will that in Episode 7 Han takes the Millenium Falcon into lightspeed from inside the other ship.
Quote from: Barrister on February 14, 2019, 04:48:55 PM
re: Admiral Holdo jumping to lightspeed into the imperial ship - no it's definitely a plot hole. Consider if you will that in Episode 7 Han takes the Millenium Falcon into lightspeed from inside the other ship.
in EP7 the ship was condemned and breaking apart. But that would likely be the plot hole, since it was deemed impossible prior to that, as well as entering hyperspace from within a planet's atmosphere or gravitational well.
However, if you pay attention to any SW visual material, you never see a ship entering hyperspace without having a clear sky in front of it.
In Rogue One, when Vader's fleet arrives you see the ship preparing to enter hyperspace veering away (autonav) from the newly found solid object.
In EP8, the ship barely enters hyperspace. I keep rewatching the scene:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2hM1tyEL0U
It's been known in the EU that you can make a blind jump, but it's extremely risky since you don't know what you will hit. Figure a normal, seaship with autopilot. It's great while you are on the open ocean, not so great when you arrive in port. Imagine if the captain let the autopilot on at full speed? ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TESKO52YSA
In all likely hood, she made a jump for a fraction of a second. Say, enter hyperspace for .3 seconds and disengage. Or hit the lever and manually release it immediatly.
All of this is established as feasible in the SW universe.
the Han Solo scenes had no precedent, but they've been sort of retconned from what I read on Wookiepedia.
If what she did was possible, then the best possible weapon would be a ship that was just a giant hyperspace bullet. So why don't we see that all the time?
You don't even need to put a person on it, a droid will do - no kamikaze is necessary.
I imagine something pretty small going at hyperspace speed would destroy the Death Star - it certainly could not dodge it, and would be impossible to miss.
The presumption is that it isn't possible, because if it WAS possible, that would be by far the most effective possible capital ship weapon, and the entire mechanics of combat would be radically different.
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 14, 2019, 04:36:41 PM
No, I haven't read any of those, as they have zero interest for me. I am talking about the conventions of a genre. If you start with good guys triumphant, you are going against the general conventions of an epic. It doesn't mean you can't write sprawling, convoluted narratives - it means that to make it back into an epic, you have to find a way to bring your hero low again, and invent yet another existential threat. It can be done, but it dilutes the strengths of the genre (and frequently makes for mediocre storytelling). Similarly, a subtle narrative of political intrigue doesn't fit well with epic, for they deal in absolutes - partly why the prequels had trouble interweaving the corruption of Anakin with the corruption of the Republic. It required a different genre.
I think you're right here. I also think that's one of the reasons the wooden dialogue worked okay in the first movies. People in epic literature don't speak the way real humans do.
Quote from: viper37 on February 14, 2019, 04:06:02 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 10, 2019, 02:23:34 PM
You can't begin with the good guys triumphant in an epic. Nor can an epic have the moral ambiguity and political manoeuvering that, say, a "let's now win the peace" storyline would have imposed.
Obviously, you have never read anything written in what is now the "Legends Universe" over the last 30 years.
Ugh, the old EU was an inconsistent mess of 10% good stuff, 30% mediocre stuff and 60% hot garbage, with a lot of it being "imperial warlord of the week" or similar nonsense. Don't @ me. :P
Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2019, 12:25:06 AM
So why don't we see that all the time?
Again, why didn't the Japanese use destroyer to ram US aircraft in WWII?
Answer:
a) because other ships&crafts in the fleet would maul the ship before it gets there.
b) because the attacked ship may have time to move out of the way if it isn't concentrated on other ships.
c) because you need to be very, very close to the other ship, otherwise you are in hyperspace
d) because you need a ship of similar mass&size
Quote
You don't even need to put a person on it, a droid will do - no kamikaze is necessary.
I'm not sure droids can do it They seem to be very limited in what they can do, hence why there is always a biological pilot in this universerse and never fully automated ships.
You need a droid or a computer to calculate the hyperspace route, but they don't seem to fly the ship by themselves in and out of hyperspace.
QuoteI imagine something pretty small going at hyperspace speed would destroy the Death Star - it certainly could not dodge it, and would be impossible to miss.
The SSD going through the 2nd death star caused tremendous damage, but it didn't blow up the death star in itself, it was only with the blown reactor that it exploded.
Quote
The presumption is that it isn't possible, because if it WAS possible, that would be by far the most effective possible capital ship weapon, and the entire mechanics of combat would be radically different.
Lots of things are possible. I can have my arm cut and re-attached. That is entirely possible and there are many examples of re-attached limbs in the world. Didn't they transplant a human head not so long ago? Why not do it more often? I'm super rich, I don't like my head&face, I get another one. It IS possible.
Being possible and being practical are two different things.
Al-Queada attacked and severly damaged a US destroyer with a small kamikaze boat. Logically, something just a tad bigger could ram&sink the ship. Why is the US still building destroyers? Clearly they should build fleets of fishing ships filled to the brim with explosives and ram their ennemies ships. It IS possible to sink an ennemy vessel that way. Why don't all navies of the world do it instead of spending billions on big, bad ships?
Like I said, practicallity.
In the SW universe, unlike Star Trek, they don't have super evolved networked computers and they require tons of personal to operate a carrier or any kind of big ship, really. Somehow, the creators of the first movies didn't anticipate the power of personal computers in the future :P
So, to use a really big ship to ram another one, you need lots of people to get it there first. And then you need a diversion, preferablly not your escape pods that are shot down by the ennemy fleet. And you need a really cheap ship that you can sacrifice that way, otherwise, well, you risk losing the war when you can't replace them. And a really cheap ship that can be sacrificed isn't going to resist long to ennemy fire. You also need a human pilot who can deactivate the safeties and program a microjump. What happenned was the ship entered and exited hyperspace almost immediatly. It didn't magically get away.
The USS Cole was caught off guard. I do not the specifics of your navy, by I am pretty confident that adjustments have been made to your ships&policies to prevent the success of such an attack in the future, especially when docked at the harbour while refueling.
So if I'm going to attack a US destroyer with a small craft, I need to be able to resist ennemy fire long enough to deliver my explosive package. Why aren't kamikaze airplanes a thing in modern wars? Because by the end of WWII, the US had already adapted to that strategy and mitigated its success. Steel deck instead of wooden deck, anti-aircraft defense, better radars on all ships, fighter screen further ahead, etc, etc.
I'm guessing that, eventually, if you use the same strategy over&over, your ennemy would find ways to adapt too. Maybe they wouldn't be so confident in one huge ship and start having multiple smaller ships so one loss isn't so important (funnily, it seemed to be the strategy of the Rebel Alliance vs Empire in all previous movies).
Quote from: Syt on February 15, 2019, 01:15:04 AM
Quote from: viper37 on February 14, 2019, 04:06:02 PM
Quote from: Oexmelin on February 10, 2019, 02:23:34 PM
You can't begin with the good guys triumphant in an epic. Nor can an epic have the moral ambiguity and political manoeuvering that, say, a "let's now win the peace" storyline would have imposed.
Obviously, you have never read anything written in what is now the "Legends Universe" over the last 30 years.
Ugh, the old EU was an inconsistent mess of 10% good stuff, 30% mediocre stuff and 60% hot garbage, with a lot of it being "imperial warlord of the week" or similar nonsense. Don't @ me. :P
Nah, reverse the proportions :P
Ok, maybe not that much :D I'm not counting comic books. Never read them, don't know what they're worth. Maybe you're right after all :P
Of what I have read:
Shadows of the Empire
Hand of Judgment duology
Thrawn trilogy
Jedi Academy Trilogy
I, Jedi
The Correllian Trilogy
Thrawn duology (Hand of Thrawn)
Survivor's Quest
Maybe 50-75% of the Vong series
Legacy of the Force
Fate of the Jedi
Crucible
I haven't read the pre-Episode IV stuff. Might be good, might be a mess.
Quote from: viper37 on February 15, 2019, 03:00:45 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2019, 12:25:06 AM
So why don't we see that all the time?
Again, why didn't the Japanese use destroyer to ram US aircraft in WWII?
Because destroyers dont fly very well.
Answer:
a) because other ships&crafts in the fleet would maul the ship before it gets there.
[/quote]
Assuming you mean why don't DDs attacks aircraft carriers, this isn't comparable since DDs don't have a "hyperspace" setting.
Quote
b) because the attacked ship may have time to move out of the way if it isn't concentrated on other ships.
Again, not if the missile is moving at hyperspace speed - by definition, you cannot dodge. Also: See Death Star. Size of a small moon. Cannot dodge, and doesn't even know a hyperspace missile is being lined up on it.
Quote
c) because you need to be very, very close to the other ship, otherwise you are in hyperspace
Apparently you don't have to be that close, since the rebel ship was far enough away that it was able to put up with continous fire on it for, what, hours? Days?
Quote
d) because you need a ship of similar mass&size
Who says? An object energy is 1/2mvsquared. You do not need comparable size, just has to be moving really damn fast.
Quote
Quote
You don't even need to put a person on it, a droid will do - no kamikaze is necessary.
I'm not sure droids can do it They seem to be very limited in what they can do, hence why there is always a biological pilot in this universerse and never fully automated ships.
You need a droid or a computer to calculate the hyperspace route, but they don't seem to fly the ship by themselves in and out of hyperspace.
I've seen droids weild light sabers competently against any human. I am sure they could press a big red button.
Quote
QuoteI imagine something pretty small going at hyperspace speed would destroy the Death Star - it certainly could not dodge it, and would be impossible to miss.
The SSD going through the 2nd death star caused tremendous damage, but it didn't blow up the death star in itself, it was only with the blown reactor that it exploded.
I am sure if the damage done was only in the range of a SSD crashing into it, that would be an acceptable weapon.
Quote
Quote
The presumption is that it isn't possible, because if it WAS possible, that would be by far the most effective possible capital ship weapon, and the entire mechanics of combat would be radically different.
Lots of things are possible. I can have my arm cut and re-attached. That is entirely possible and there are many examples of re-attached limbs in the world. Didn't they transplant a human head not so long ago? Why not do it more often? I'm super rich, I don't like my head&face, I get another one. It IS possible.
Being possible and being practical are two different things.
So you think warfare is pretty much similar to having your limbs amputated? That's you best analogy to rebut an obvious glaring deus ex machina writing barf?
Quote
Al-Queada attacked and severly damaged a US destroyer with a small kamikaze boat. Logically, something just a tad bigger could ram&sink the ship. Why is the US still building destroyers? Clearly they should build fleets of fishing ships filled to the brim with explosives and ram their ennemies ships. It IS possible to sink an ennemy vessel that way. Why don't all navies of the world do it instead of spending billions on big, bad ships?
Errrh, no - that isn't the same thing at all. The US actually does in fact consider ramming attacks a factor, and defends against them (sometimes more successfully than not). But if you had a msall boat capable of going a couple thousand times faster than a DD...oh wait, there are such things. They are called missiles, and they do in fact define the mechanics and tactics of modern combat. Of course, a modern missile's speed compared to a boat is still a fraction of the speed of a ship flying at hyperspace speed.
Quote
Like I said, practicallity.
In the SW universe, unlike Star Trek, they don't have super evolved networked computers and they require tons of personal to operate a carrier or any kind of big ship, really. Somehow, the creators of the first movies didn't anticipate the power of personal computers in the future :P
Fair point, but in SW, you need lots of people to operate lots of different, and disparate, systems. In this case, you just need one person who clearly is perfectly capable of operating the only system that matters - the hyperspace drive. Everything else is immaterial, if you can destroy ships by simply hyperspeeding into them.
Quote
So, to use a really big ship to ram another one, you need lots of people to get it there first. And then you need a diversion, preferablly not your escape pods that are shot down by the ennemy fleet. And you need a really cheap ship that you can sacrifice that way, otherwise, well, you risk losing the war when you can't replace them. And a really cheap ship that can be sacrificed isn't going to resist long to ennemy fire. You also need a human pilot who can deactivate the safeties and program a microjump. What happenned was the ship entered and exited hyperspace almost immediatly. It didn't magically get away.
The USS Cole was caught off guard. I do not the specifics of your navy, by I am pretty confident that adjustments have been made to your ships&policies to prevent the success of such an attack in the future, especially when docked at the harbour while refueling.
So if I'm going to attack a US destroyer with a small craft, I need to be able to resist ennemy fire long enough to deliver my explosive package. Why aren't kamikaze airplanes a thing in modern wars? Because by the end of WWII, the US had already adapted to that strategy and mitigated its success. Steel deck instead of wooden deck, anti-aircraft defense, better radars on all ships, fighter screen further ahead, etc, etc.
I'm guessing that, eventually, if you use the same strategy over&over, your ennemy would find ways to adapt too. Maybe they wouldn't be so confident in one huge ship and start having multiple smaller ships so one loss isn't so important (funnily, it seemed to be the strategy of the Rebel Alliance vs Empire in all previous movies).
So now your claim is that this is a New and Exciting strategy that nobody ever thought of before?
I love it when fanbois fanboi. *pops popcorn*
Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2019, 04:58:28 PM
Assuming you mean why don't DDs attacks aircraft carriers, this isn't comparable since DDs don't have a "hyperspace" setting.
They have flanking speed.
Quote
Again, not if the missile is moving at hyperspace speed - by definition, you cannot dodge. Also: See Death Star. Size of a small moon. Cannot dodge, and doesn't even know a hyperspace missile is being lined up on it.
Cannot dodge once it enters hyperspace very close to you.
Can dodge if it's further away: just let it enter the hyperspace lane, it's another dimension, apparently. A ship would have to exit hyperspace precisely were the target is, or just before it. Very difficult to do as you get further away.
Quote
Apparently you don't have to be that close, since the rebel ship was far enough away that it was able to put up with continous fire on it for, what, hours? Days?
You can see the ship slowing down, turning, facing the ennemy and keep on advancing a little before entering hyperspace.
If you are chasing me with your car and I have a similar speed to you, but then you focus on another target and I vear toward you. Assuming you keep constant speed and I slowed down before turning and facing you, are you closer to me than before my manoeuver or at exactly the same distance?
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Who says? An object energy is 1/2mvsquared. You do not need comparable size, just has to be moving really damn fast.
a) Imagine you are driving on the highway, in your car. Suddenly, a wasp hits your windshield.
b) Imagine you are driving on the highway, in your car. Suddenly, a deer crosses the road in front of you and you can't evade it.
Both objects are much smaller than your car. But which one has created more damages, potentially crippling your car?
So, you do need something nearly as big to create damage.
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I've seen droids weild light sabers competently against any human. I am sure they could press a big red button.
I have never seen that in Star Wars. I have, however, seen some kind of reptilian humanoid life form rebuilt with a robotic shell, but his heart and mind was still there (literally).
A robot can not use the Force. A non Force sensitive biological life form could not adequately weild a lightsaber. They can activate it and use it to cut an animal, but trying a fight with this would likely result in serious accidents. Otherwise, everyone would built lightsaber weilding droids with shields, they would be near unstoppable.
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I am sure if the damage done was only in the range of a SSD crashing into it, that would be an acceptable weapon.
If the object is not completely destroyed, can still move and fire, how good is the attack that deprived you of a massive ship?
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So you think warfare is pretty much similar to having your limbs amputated?
Nope. But I think in warfare like in biology, there are lots of things possible. They just aren't practical.
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Errrh, no - that isn't the same thing at all. The US actually does in fact consider ramming attacks a factor, and defends against them (sometimes more successfully than not). But if you had a msall boat capable of going a couple thousand times faster than a DD...oh wait, there are such things. They are called missiles, and they do in fact define the mechanics and tactics of modern combat. Of course, a modern missile's speed compared to a boat is still a fraction of the speed of a ship flying at hyperspace speed.
See, it is more efficient to use missiles and torpedoes than use small man operated objects loaded with explosives.
Hence why they do it in Star Wars.
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Fair point, but in SW, you need lots of people to operate lots of different, and disparate, systems. In this case, you just need one person who clearly is perfectly capable of operating the only system that matters - the hyperspace drive. Everything else is immaterial, if you can destroy ships by simply hyperspeeding into them.
Ok, fine. How do you get the ship to the battle and manage to get it very close to the ennemy ship you want to target with only one pilot?
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So now your claim is that this is a New and Exciting strategy that nobody ever thought of before?
No.
I'm saying it was one trick that worked in this case, because there were special circumstances that allowed it.
Are you aware of many attacks similar to USS Cole?
How many airplanes crashed in buildings since 9/11?
Are they "plot holes" or are they something therotically practical that happend due to lots of other circumstances?
What are the odds today of a terrorist group hijacking multiple airplanes and crashing them on many different targets?
Before 9/11, in an hostage taking operation aboard an aircraft, the m.o. was to let the terrorists land the plane, make their demands and then either acknowledge them or storm the plane to free the hostages.
Since 9/11, military fighters will escore any craft slightly deviating from target, and passengers are likely to revolt and cause the airplane to crash in a field instead of a city.
But it was a very valid strategy at the time. Even though we have airplanes for one hundred years before that, even though kamikaze actions were known since 60 years prior to that, it was the first and only time commercial aircrafts were used in that way.
Is that one of history's plot hole?
When Tom Clancy wrote it in his book, was it a plot hole that Japanese terrorists crashed their plane on the Capitol?
Uggh, never mind. Fan boys will do their fan boy thing. Your right, this was just like 9/11, and amputating arms. At the same time.
It was totally plausible, and you win.
Quote from: viper37 on February 15, 2019, 06:39:41 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2019, 04:58:28 PM
Assuming you mean why don't DDs attacks aircraft carriers, this isn't comparable since DDs don't have a "hyperspace" setting.
They have flanking speed.
:lol:
Sorry, didn't read the rest of the desperate fanboi-ism. When you lead with your chin, it isn't necessary - the rest is predictable.
Personally I liked the bombing run scene at the beginning a lot. It pays homage to the tradition of Star Wars space battles as WWII Pacific Warfare in space. Yes, it doesn't make sense - this people have mastered hyperspace travel but for some reason never developed stand-off ordinance - but at least it's consistent with the universe as presented.
Hyperspace should be several hundreds or thousands times the speed of light. Small stones at that speed ought to put the Death star out of commission.
If hyperspace is magical and you don't hit anything in hyperspace, well then, slab an engine on an asteroid and have a droid or a human drop out of hyperspace inside the Death star. If the alternative is that the Death star kills a planet you will find lots of volunteers.
Or don't open that can of worms with lazy writing.
And flank speed is just all out top speed. A canoe has flank speed. A log has flank speed.
Something that's always bugged me: why is flank speed called flank speed? Google isn't giving me a satisfactory answer.
My own folk etymology is that it's the kind of speed you'd use when trying to flank or avoid getting flanked in a battle?
Quote from: Threviel on February 16, 2019, 10:57:51 AM
Hyperspace should be several hundreds or thousands times the speed of light. Small stones at that speed ought to put the Death star out of commission.
If hyperspace is magical and you don't hit anything in hyperspace, well then, slab an engine on an asteroid and have a droid or a human drop out of hyperspace inside the Death star. If the alternative is that the Death star kills a planet you will find lots of volunteers.
Or don't open that can of worms with lazy writing.
And flank speed is just all out top speed. A canoe has flank speed. A log has flank speed.
Theoretically yes. My head-canon is that this would only work as occasional surprise tactic. Interdiction tech, i.e. the ability to create a mass shadow that prevents others from going to hyperspace, or pulling them out of it, if they're in it, exists in the new canon (interdictor cruiser showed up in Rebels), and if this was used more commonly, surely most capital ships would probably be accompanied by interdictors or have the capability added to their designs.
EDIT: I found it much more puzzling that the First Order is worried about conserving fighters (sending them to attack the fleeing Resistance would be a one way trip due to limited range of fighters), and that there was no clear reason why they didn't use hyperjumps to get around their opponents and cut them off.
Well. They had a situation where that shit wasn't done. They didn't need to explain it, for magical reasons there are no standoff weapons. They don't need to explain. Unless they of course introduce standoff weapons, then there is a whole lot if stuff about it to explain.
I often find in films that certain obvious tactical choices can't be done for, well, story reasons. In the bad ones they have bad explanations for character actions.
Quote from: Syt on February 16, 2019, 11:23:55 AM
EDIT: I found it much more puzzling that the First Order is worried about conserving fighters (sending them to attack the fleeing Resistance would be a one way trip due to limited range of fighters), and that there was no clear reason why they didn't use hyperjumps to get around their opponents and cut them off.
maybe they have more limited resources than the original Empire did? They don't want to lose pilots because they can't afford to train new ones yet? They're still upstarts too, despite having crushed the New Republic, the war is not over.
Or maybe it was easier to just shoot them with the ship's guns. Who knows.
As for hyperspace jump, maybe they do not want to do a very risky blind microjump with their flagship, with the Emperor - I mean, Supreme Leader, #2 and #3 onboard? A slight miscalculation and they end up inside the rebel carrier. Bad guys don't like sacrificing themselves in movies :P
Quote from: grumbler on February 15, 2019, 08:05:51 PM
Quote from: viper37 on February 15, 2019, 06:39:41 PM
Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2019, 04:58:28 PM
Assuming you mean why don't DDs attacks aircraft carriers, this isn't comparable since DDs don't have a "hyperspace" setting.
They have flanking speed.
:lol:
Sorry, didn't read the rest of the desperate fanboi-ism. When you lead with your chin, it isn't necessary - the rest is predictable.
So destroyers are unable to move faster than an aircraft carrier?
I stand corrected then.
Quote from: Berkut on February 15, 2019, 06:57:56 PM
Uggh, never mind. Fan boys will do their fan boy thing.
haters gonna hate :)
The movie had many flaws. This wasn't one of them. It might be one of the two or three readeaming feature of the entire movie.
Quote from: viper37 on February 16, 2019, 05:16:52 PM
So destroyers are unable to move faster than an aircraft carrier?
I stand corrected then.
Generally speaking no, they cannot. At best, they might have two knots or so.
But the problem isn't catching the carrier, it is surviving to do so. Even if the carrier is, for some fantastic plot reason, unaccompanied, it is armed with sufficient weapons and fire control to sink the destroyer long before the destroyer can get a ram in. And even if the destroyer rammed the carrier, its small size and minuscule relative speed means that it isn't going to inflict much damage on the armored hull of the carrier. This all assumes, of course, that it doesn't have any torpedoes (again, for some fantastic plot reason).
Face it: plot loopholes are plot loopholes, and bad movies are full of them. Extraordinarily bad movies combine them with "yo momma" jokes.
Quote from: celedhring on February 16, 2019, 11:13:26 AM
Something that's always bugged me: why is flank speed called flank speed? Google isn't giving me a satisfactory answer.
My own folk etymology is that it's the kind of speed you'd use when trying to flank or avoid getting flanked in a battle?
My understanding is that it comes from the fact that one would spur the flanks of a horse to get it to maximum speed. The flanking in battle bit makes a lot less sense in a naval context (formations don't have flanks), and makes even less sense when you discover that the White Ensign Navies don't use it.
We used to call emergency engine orders "bendix" because the space beyond ahead flank/back full was filled with the name of the manufacturer, Bendix corp, something like this:
(https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/323381837244_/WW2-Vintage-Navy-Ships-Engine-Order-Telegraph-Bendix.jpg)
Quote from: grumbler on February 16, 2019, 10:16:48 PM
And even if the destroyer rammed the carrier, its small size and minuscule relative speed means that it isn't going to inflict much damage on the armored hull of the carrier. This all assumes, of course, that it doesn't have any torpedoes (again, for some fantastic plot reason).
yeah, well, we do have to work within the parameters of the movie: not enough torpedoes to bypass the ship's defenses in time and the ships guns are elsewhere, and just as the Rebel ship is turning around the Imperials think it is running away and keep on firing the small escape shuttles.
Had the SSD been firing relentlessly on the Rebel ship, it would never have survived a close encounter, that's why they made the Imperials superbly dumb in all of the movies. Except Palpatine, maybe. Just overconfident.
Quote
Face it: plot loopholes are plot loopholes, and bad movies are full of them. Extraordinarily bad movies combine them with "yo momma" jokes.
My analogy was bad, because I did not know enough about modern navies.
But I did say a destroyer attempting such a manoeuver would be mauled before reaching the carrier, even if it was alone (which would be very unlikely to happen).
I thought a destroyer was way, way faster than a carrier.
I stand corrected, thank you.
Quote from: viper37 on February 17, 2019, 12:18:27 AM
My analogy was bad, because I did not know enough about modern navies.
But I did say a destroyer attempting such a manoeuver would be mauled before reaching the carrier, even if it was alone (which would be very unlikely to happen).
I thought a destroyer was way, way faster than a carrier.
I stand corrected, thank you.
There is the historical account of destroyer HMS Glowworm ramming cruiser KMS Hipper during WW2, if you want to see what actually happens in such cases.
Quote from: Syt on February 16, 2019, 11:23:55 AM
Theoretically yes. My head-canon is that this would only work as occasional surprise tactic. Interdiction tech, i.e. the ability to create a mass shadow that prevents others from going to hyperspace, or pulling them out of it, if they're in it, exists in the new canon (interdictor cruiser showed up in Rebels), and if this was used more commonly, surely most capital ships would probably be accompanied by interdictors or have the capability added to their designs.
Whas it Thrawn who used interdictor cruisers to precisely time his exit from hyperspace so all ships would come out at the same spot at the same time ready to fire. Otherwise, that kind of synchrocinity seems unable to be achieved by their conventional means.
And was it in the books or in Rebels?
Quote
EDIT: I found it much more puzzling that the First Order is worried about conserving fighters (sending them to attack the fleeing Resistance would be a one way trip due to limited range of fighters), and that there was no clear reason why they didn't use hyperjumps to get around their opponents and cut them off.
Bad guys are dumb. ;)
Once the ennemy is destroyed, even out of fuel, the fighters could be towed back in the ship.
I believe they have tractor beams in the SW universed, or they at least have some kind of grappling hook.
No big deal. The Resistance is crushed, everyone falls in line, what's a few hours more to get the ships and pilot back?
Quote from: viper37 on February 18, 2019, 05:48:07 PM
Whas it Thrawn who used interdictor cruisers to precisely time his exit from hyperspace so all ships would come out at the same spot at the same time ready to fire. Otherwise, that kind of synchrocinity seems unable to be achieved by their conventional means.
And was it in the books or in Rebels?
Not sure. I think in Rebels the main purpose was to prevent Rebels from fleeing and interdicting their hyperspace travel.
I've watched the pilot double episode of Resistance. I was originally rather put off by the art style based on stills and promo material. However, I find in motion it looks pretty damn good to me and the visuals during the race scene were very nice to look at.
The plot was, overall, typical Saturday morning cartoon fair - which IMHO is fine if you introduce the characters. The cast seems likable so far. I found Neeku rather funny - like Drax in Guardians of the Galaxy he takes pretty much everything literally, and doesn't understand sarcasm. At the same time he's a happy, positive nerd. I presume he will not be popular with Languishites. :P
The episodes have very mediocre scores on IMDB which was a bit of a surprise to me. I found this much easier to watch than the pilots for Rebels or Clone Wars (and in fact, there's some pretty weak episodes in those shows in their respective first seasons) and look forward to seeing more.
Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker
Trailer is out today.
So does that mean that Rey really is a Skywalker? It looks like Kylo Ren rebuilds his mask. Is that the Emperor we hear cackling at the end?
So is JJ Abrams just going to reverse all the narrative changes that Johnson made in 8?
Oh it's confirmed that was Ian McDiarmid's evil laugh at the end.
Probably JJ reversing some of the narrative in some hamfisted way, yeah.
But I don't think he'll make Rey a Skywalker. Though it would make the Rey/Kylo mutual attraction into a Luke/Leia incest situation as well, so it's in keeping with tradition. :hmm:
In trying to understand the title...
What if, in this new universe where there are no Jedis anymore, Skywalker becomes not a name but a title? The Skywalker Order if you will?
It's either that or Luke's force ghost pops up to say "Ren was lying to you - you're really my daughter".
I agree it's likely that Skywalker becomes a title.
Fuck, I hope that's right.
Also "Jedi" not "Jedis", unless you also say moosen.
Moosemen
Quote from: Habbaku on April 12, 2019, 02:37:59 PM
Fuck, I hope that's right.
Also "Jedi" not "Jedis", unless you also say moosen.
I say meese.
Trailer looked ok. Lando is fucking old. Hopefully it can rescue the franchise from Johnson's clusterfuck.
There was wreckage of the Death Star in the trailer. So I'm guessing we're going to either Endor or Yavin IV. Though with the Emperor in the picture we might be on Endor. Then again, Yavin IV had those temples ...
And what would they want from the debris? Kyber crystals?
I'm guessing Tattoine for the desert scenes and Endor at the end, probably to defeat a resurgent Emperor. I guess the galaxy is a pretty small place after all.
Quote from: Barrister on April 12, 2019, 12:43:17 PM
Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker
Trailer is out today.
So does that mean that Rey really is a Skywalker? It looks like Kylo Ren rebuilds his mask. Is that the Emperor we hear cackling at the end?
So is JJ Abrams just going to reverse all the narrative changes that Johnson made in 8?
Kylo Ren is a Skywalker too.
Not a fan about the Emperor showing up. It seems lazy.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 12, 2019, 03:42:48 PM
Trailer looked ok. Lando is fucking old. Hopefully it can rescue the franchise from Johnson's clusterfuck.
Billy Dee Williams is 82. He is fucking old.
Quote from: celedhring on April 12, 2019, 03:51:05 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 12, 2019, 12:43:17 PM
Star Wars IX: The Rise of Skywalker
Trailer is out today.
So does that mean that Rey really is a Skywalker? It looks like Kylo Ren rebuilds his mask. Is that the Emperor we hear cackling at the end?
So is JJ Abrams just going to reverse all the narrative changes that Johnson made in 8?
Kylo Ren is a Skywalker too.
Twice now they've swerved on whether Ren can be "saved": first with his father, then again with Rey. Doing it a third time just wouldn't seem right.
If they want to give closure to the story, he's headed to a redemption of some kind.
Quote from: celedhring on April 12, 2019, 04:02:29 PM
If they want to give closure to the story, he's headed to a redemption of some kind.
You're the screenwriter, but why does his end have to be redemption? Luke may have given him the final push to the dark side, but it's clear now that he has chosen his path.
In fact why does there have to be an "end" at all? I know this is the end of this trilogy, but Disney will want to re-visit Star Wars again, so why kill off one of your most interesting current characters?
I doubt Adam Driver wants to do any more of this crap.
I honestly can't think of another way - the main dramatic thrust has been Kylo and Rey's relationship, and they won't finish the trilogy without a payoff for it. And evil has to be defeated etcetera.
I think Disney spent all the "we're going to be cute with dramatic clichés" allowance in the middle film, and this is going to be really safe.
Quote from: Zoupa on April 12, 2019, 04:19:52 PM
I doubt Adam Driver wants to do any more of this crap.
Why? He seems to be doing reasonably well in his movie career besides Star Wars (unlike Daisey Ridley who *checks google* has really only done voice work and only one movie outside of Star Wars). Driver seems like he's having fun with the role. Give it a break of a few years and why wouldn't he want to return (plus get another mountain of cash thrown at him)?
Quote from: Barrister on April 12, 2019, 04:25:25 PM
(unlike Daisey Ridley who *checks google* has really only done voice work and only one movie outside of Star Wars).
and she wasnt even a skywalker
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D3-pAR_UcAA4Ihx?format=png&name=small)
:lol:
Silly but intriguing theory from 2015:
http://adamserwer.tumblr.com/post/135932691418/who-is-rey
Quote[...]
So here is my theory: Rey is a clone of Anakin Skywalker.
Think about it: The only reference to the prequels in the entire movie is Ren mentioning the possibility of replacing storm troopers with clones. Rey is great with machines, she's a fantastic pilot, and she is effortless with the force. Not even Luke was that much of a natural–only ::shudder:: Anakin. This would explain the violence of Rey's flashback–she was looking at what was essentially a past life. (Obi Wan, on the other hand, had no use for machines, wasn't a great pilot, and was strong with the Force but not effortlessly).
This theory also explains why she is hidden away. It would be extremely hard for a parent to part with a child (if she were Luke's daughter) but if she were a clone of Anakin, Luke would be more frightened of the possibility of training her, especially given what happened to Kylo Ren.
So who cloned Vader? My theory is that Palpatine cloned Vader in case he needed a spare, and that the clone process began as soon as Vader died. Luke and the rebellion find her, and horrified, Luke hides her away, unwittingly replicating his father's upbringing as a slave on a desert planet (which he had no way of knowing about, not knowing his father well and having all information about him suppressed by those who knew both Luke and Anakin).
The other thing about this theory is that it is perfect torture for Kylo Ren: His biggest fear is that he will never be as powerful as darth vader. And Rey IS Darth Vader. Couldn't be more perfect.
So of course maybe I'm wrong, and we won't find out for a while, but that's my theory.
Driver is great and he's the best actor in the new trilogy.
Quote from: FunkMonk on April 12, 2019, 08:01:19 PM
Driver is great and he's the best actor in the new trilogy.
The last bit in your sentence says a lot. ;)
:D
Quote from: Valmy on October 11, 2018, 08:24:19 AM
Quote from: Berkut on October 10, 2018, 11:08:13 AM
I think sticking to just that model is inevitably going to get stale. It isn't a bad model, but it is rather limited, there is only so many times you can tell the basic story of good guy/badguywhoonlyexiststoopposethegoodguy in the same universe before you need to start getting a little more expansive in your approach, IMO.
Well that is the thing. There is just not that much meat on the Star Wars bone to chew on. Star Wars is very well designed to tell that basic story but little else. At least that is my feeling.
The Clone Wars animated series made Anakin a way deeper character than all six movies he was in combined. Lucas is just shitty at character development.
Ian McDiarmid is a good actor and I'm happy that he's still working.
If only Ed were still here. :weep:
http://geekxgirls.com/article.php?ID=11424&fbclid=IwAR1MG81SDbOrsm4cgrG2iZNVAnESI5l7_vSuHdort9deTxe6tJwyF43mO9k
(https://languish.org/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fgeekxgirls.com%2Fimages%2F_articles%2Fhan-solo-carbonite-pop-tarts-01.jpg&hash=2d1c293cbbe2285a7e4ba53135eff024674de3b4)
https://io9.gizmodo.com/yes-lucasfilm-is-developing-something-for-knights-of-t-1834093809
QuoteYes, Lucasfilm Is Developing Something for Knights of the Old Republic
Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic is an era and subset of Star Wars that fans have been clamoring to see in live action for a long time. And while that wait will continue, Lucasfilm head Kathleen Kennedy just confirmed that something based on the classic video game is potentially bubbling.
"You know we talk about [Knights of the Old Republic] all the time," Kennedy told MTV at Star Wars Celebration. "Yes, we are developing something to look at. Right now I have no idea where things fall but we have to be careful that there is a cadence to Star Wars that doesn't start to feel like too much." Here's the full interview, which has some other good nuggets as well.
Way to casually drop into conversation that one of the most popular games in Star Wars history, telling a wholly unique story in a totally new era of Star Wars history, may just become something in the future, Kathy! We've reached out to Lucasfilm to see if we could get clarification and will update when and if we hear.
It's important to note Kennedy's choice of words here, though. "Developing something to look at" doesn't make it sound like it's a project that's in the pipeline or anything. More like someone is working on a pitch and if that pitch works, maybe it becomes something. And it doesn't even sound like it has to be a movie or a TV show. Just "something to look at." It could also be the Benioff and Weiss movies. We just don't know.
And yet, any chance a story set thousands of years before the Empire could be coming out, and becoming canon, is exciting indeed.
Hopefully the cat chick with big boobs is in it.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: Caliga on April 23, 2019, 04:29:19 PM
Hopefully the cat chick with big boobs is in it.
Kat Dennings?
Chewbacca died (https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2019/05/02/peter-mayhew-known-playing-chewbacca-star-wars-dies/?utm_term=.3020eb66ef52)
R.I.P. Peter Mayhew. :(
:(