Star Wars Discussion Thread contains spoilers (and may contain nuts)

[Savonarola]

I gotta disagree on this. Characters don't require glaring "flaws" to be entertaining characters. It is possible to have highly skilled characters that work in fiction.

Characters require "flaws" (not sure why that requires quotation marks) to be believable and to be interesting.  Achilles without his hubris would be a very dull character indeed, no matter how skilled he was.

[MadImmortalMan]

I really hope Kennedy doesn't do to Rey what Jeri Taylor did to Janeway. It would be pretty tragic if the next star wars movie is Rey and Finn alone on an idyllic planet where Finn builds things while Rey studies bees.

[Malthus]

I gotta disagree on this. Characters don't require glaring "flaws" to be entertaining characters. It is possible to have highly skilled characters that work in fiction.

Characters require "flaws" (not sure why that requires quotation marks) to be believable and to be interesting.  Achilles without his hubris would be a very dull character indeed, no matter how skilled he was.

Unlike the clever and multiple-skilled Odysseus, whom everyone finds unbelievable and boring in the Sequel. 

Really, what matters is if the character is interesting. They can be interesting because they are greatly flawed, but that isn't the only way they can be interesting.

The notion that Luke is somehow a better and more interesting character because he is whiny and brooding strikes me as incorrect.

[viper37]

Instant buddies with Han Solo? Perhaps being a pretty chick, rather than a whiny dude, helps there.   

well, although at first she calls the Falcon a piece of junk, once she gets onboard and realizes what it is, she is in awe.  Luke on the other hand called it a piece of junk in the face of Han Solo, so that got things started on the wrong foot.  Insulting a sailor's wife is ok, but you never, never badmouth his ship

[MadImmortalMan]

I'm also thinking about getting Lost Stars: http://www.amazon.com/Journey-Star-Wars-Force-Awakens/dp/1484724984

Yes, it's Young Adult, but the setup (a Rebel and Imperial in love, and spanning the events of the original trilogy and the aftermath) sounds pretty decent, and it's gotten overall good reviews.

I read that and I don't recommend it. I kinda liked it at first, but the more I think about it the more I don't like it. I'd explain specifically why but I don't want to spoiler it for you.

[The Larch]

Just watched it and read this thread. As I said in the non-spoilery thread, I enjoyed it *but*. Too many call backs, too many winks to the old fans. I guess it was needed as a reconciliation with fandom after the prequels, and hope that the next ones are more original.

Some quick observations:

- McGuffin in a droid for starters, first check on the call back list right at the beginning.
- BB 8 is the cutest, plushiest droid ever, and basically behaves as if he was a pet puppy or something, rather than a droid.
- Finn was a terrible, terrible stormtrooper. I mean, he doesn't really do anything during that assault. He just freezes, wanders around and I'd swear that he doesn't even shoot. I could buy it if he was a green recruit, but he's supposed to have been dehumanized (to the point of not having a real name) and trained since he was a child. This bothered me a bit.
- Kylo Ren shows a huge potential in the use of the force (dat frozen blast shot!), but is still really rough around the edges. Liked the emo personality and the idea of a dark jedi tempted by the light. Really looking forward to his development.
- Phasma seems to be there just to look cool. Hope they do something better with her in the next movies.
- The first order seems really terrible at surveillance in their facilities. Finn and Poe get away basically just walking around, and later the resistance just waltz in and nobody seems to alert anyone.
- Really strong nazi vibe from the first order, just as intended. Nazis are really the best villains, just ask Indiana Jones.
- The big bad gave me a Wizard of Oz vibe in the holograms, I wouldn't be surprised if he's some kind of evil Yoda by the time we see him for real.
- I enjoyed seeing Han back on his roguish ways, and not as some bigwig in the resistance. The encounter with the two gangs was entertaining, even if it was pointless in the big picture.
- Han's death was really apparent to me when they showed the pit and the narrow path over it. It was such a big callback to when Vader cuts Luke's hands and reveals that he's his father, so it kinda had a *BIG DRAMATIC MOMENT* neon light over it.
- So much for the wookies' fierceness. I was counting on Chewie going apeshit after Han's death, and going down fighting. But he's actually cerebral and, even if he shoots Ren, basically sticks to the plan. I wonder what they have for him in store for the next films.
- The baddies' penchant for big, bulky and impractical superweapons is actually exacerbated from the original films. I chalk it also to the nazi paralels and the "Let's build a bigger one where the previous one failed" mentality.

I'm surely forgetting some stuff. More to come tomorrow after I let my thoughts simmer a bit.

[Tonitrus]

Just watched it and read this thread. As I said in the non-spoilery thread, I enjoyed it *but*. Too many call backs, too many winks to the old fans. I guess it was needed as a reconciliation with fandom after the prequels, and hope that the next ones are more original.

Some quick observations:

- Finn was a terrible, terrible stormtrooper. I mean, he doesn't really do anything during that assault. He just freezes, wanders around and I'd swear that he doesn't even shoot. I could buy it if he was a green recruit, but he's supposed to have been dehumanized (to the point of not having a real name) and trained since he was a child. This bothered me a bit.
- Phasma seems to be there just to look cool. Hope they do something better with her in the next movies.

Those were two things that bothered me too (in reverse order):

- Phasma was a total throw-away character.  They cannot even bring her back again unless they Boba-Fett-style explain how she survives the place blowing up  (but granted...they'll likely bring that General dude back, as he was told to evacuate, even if that seemed to be at a point where it was too late to do so, and it was never shown that he ever did).

- I actually thought Finn showed some good psychopathic tendencies...didn't want to shoot up villagers, but gleefully blows up his just-a-minute-ago-comrades in the Tie fighter bay.

[katmai]

In novel General Hux gets away after rescuing Ren, and Christie (Phantasma) is signed for VIII.

[Barrister]

My little guys were playing Star Wars tonight.

Timmy started out playing as Luke.  Andrew couldn't decide who he wanted to be, but eventually decided he wanted to be the guy who turned into stone.  We figured out he meant Han.

But then later Timmy decided he'd much rather be Rey.  She was much cooler, like some sort of ninja (his words).

[DontSayBanana]

Yay, finally got a chance to get to the theater to see TFA.  I wanted to be there for the midnight release, but you know, adulting and such.  It sucks.

I was cautiously optimistic; my biggest worry was that either the new characters would just be there for purposes of advancing the plot for the older ones or vice versa.  I was pleasantly surprised by the mix of callbacks and deliberate departures from formula.  In fact, I've got exactly one complaint about TFA, which I'll get out of the way first:

Whose brilliant idea was it to have Finn be one of the crack stormtroopers there to murder the village in the first place?  That ship was HUGE, easily carrying thousands of troops.  Only 4 transports went down, which looked like about 10-15 passengers each.  So to suppress an entire village, they bring a crack team of 40-60 stormtroopers, one of which happened to be a guy who had never before seen combat?  Call me cynical or chalk it up to associating with an abundance of military personnel, but that was just stupid.

[Tonitrus]

What I think they were trying to do, as shown by Kylo seeming to know he was weak, but letting him go anyway, was to show him projecting his  doubts about his darksidedness.  But it was kinda clumsy in how they did it.

[DontSayBanana]

What I think they were trying to do, as shown by Kylo seeming to know he was weak, but letting him go anyway, was to show him projecting his  doubts about his darksidedness.  But it was kinda clumsy in how they did it.

It was clumsy in that Finn's basically never established as a "stormtrooper."  If Finn's defection had waited a couple of scenes, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as jarring.  Finn was so clearly out of place that he never should have been on that transport in the first place.  Phasma said it was his "first incident of nonconformity."  One would think with that kind of conditioning, they would be able to spot body language so blatant it telegraphs through full body armor and a full face mask.  Given the entire prequel trilogy, though, I think I can let one bad moment slide, especially when the rest of the movie's so good.

[Berkut]

If learning the Force was so easy as monkey sees, monkey does, Luke could have skipped Dagobah.

But I'm willing to give Rey's Mary-Sueness a pass until we know more about her, and what happens to her.

Well, it may be the case that "monkey see, monkey do" only applies to 'while the monkey is torturing you', which sorta rules out the good guys using that particular technique on Luke. 

And it didn't even work the first time she did it!

Persuasion is a very iffy proposition, and has as much to do with the strength of the mind being persuaded as it does the practitioner. I have no problem thinking that her ability to make it work on some random weak minded stormtrooper who has been indoctrinated since a young age to mindlessly follow any and all orders is not really an indication of the training required for true mastery.

She is exceptional, stormtrooper guy is exceptionally susceptible.

Hell, Rylo probably had an exaggerated sense of his own power, since he probably mostly used it on fascist troopers, who might be uniquely trained to be susceptible to exactly that!

Really, how much force-using does Rey do? She uses the 'suggestion' thingy on a stormtrooper, and she levitates Luke's lightsabre. The latter is at least partly because that object is 'rightfully' hers - her connection to it is established earlier, when she first finds it: for whatever reason, she has a bond with it (that explains why she could move it, while Han Solo Jr. can't). 

Rylo could only not move it because Rey was actively opposing him though, right?

[Syt]

http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/harrison-ford-50-times-pay.html?mid=facebook_nymag

Report: Harrison Ford Was Paid More Than 50 Times More Than His Force Awakens Co-Stars

The Force Awakens is making a stupid amount of record-breaking money, so its stars must be, too, right? Well, yes, but especially if you are Harrison Ford, according to the Daily Mail. In a report published this weekend, the 73-year-old icon was cited as raking in a hefty eight-figure salary — one roughly 76 times greater than those of Daisy Ridley and John Boyega — for reprising his role as Han Solo.

Variety checked in late Monday, however, with updated flat fees:

Ford: $10 million-$20 million

Mark Hamill, Carrie Fisher: low seven-figure range

Adam Driver, Oscar Isaac: mid-to-high six-figure range

Boyega, Ridley: $100,000-$300,000

Returning actors reportedly received a legacy pay scale that boosted them above the newer talent — Ford is highest because of that special plot-related reason you're suspecting. "Harrison is the key to making this movie work. He's the link between the old generation and the new," a source explained to Mail. "Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher were good to get, but the film could have lived without them. You couldn't make it without Harrison Ford."

Variety added that Episode VIII participants will likely get to renegotiate their contracts and that the above numbers don't account for back-end bonuses, which activate once the film's worldwide box-office breaks $1 billion. In other words, the non-Ford stars are still making, or will likely soon be making, this kind of money, too. Read more about the paydays here.

[derspiess]

It was clumsy in that Finn's basically never established as a "stormtrooper."  If Finn's defection had waited a couple of scenes, it wouldn't have been anywhere near as jarring.  Finn was so clearly out of place that he never should have been on that transport in the first place.  Phasma said it was his "first incident of nonconformity."  One would think with that kind of conditioning, they would be able to spot body language so blatant it telegraphs through full body armor and a full face mask.  Given the entire prequel trilogy, though, I think I can let one bad moment slide, especially when the rest of the movie's so good.

I think it would have sufficed to have him fully participate in the assault, shooting at the resisting villagers, up until the point where he has second thoughts about killing the unarmed/captured ones.  But I guess Disney wanted him to be a 100% pure good guy.