French police going Erdogan over al-niqab?

[Grey Fox]

Yes. And there's Duque & Malthus wall of text. :

Make some points, and I'll give you a wall of text all for yourself. 

Lower class muslim immigrants and their descendants from Algérie and Liban still cannot understand that the only way to be part of French society is too shed anything from before immigrations, starting with religion. The French while having accepted these refugees from their even more crazy brethrens don't actually consider them French. There is only 2 option in French society : Getthoization or Assimilation.

[Valmy]

So yeah... I'm wondering what reasoning - absurd or not - Yi is using to arrive at the statement that "Islam cannot distinguish between religion and politics"; then I'm testing the absurdity of the reasoning and the relevance to our discussion regarding the niqab in France by applying it to Christianity and seeing how that shakes out. I'm not particularly wedded to any given definition myself.

Well I do not know Yi's reasoning.  I was saying we should wait in good faith to see what he has to say about it before declaring it equivalent to something else.  If you do not know his reasoning how can you declare it absurd and apply it other places?  I was not sure what he was getting at either but I took exception to where Raz was going.

[Jacob]

Lower class muslim immigrants and their descendants from Algérie and Liban still cannot understand that the only way to be part of French society is too shed anything from before immigrations, starting with religion. The French while having accepted these refugees from their even more crazy brethrens don't actually consider them French. There is only 2 option in French society : Getthoization or Assimilation.

I expect that given that stark a choice, the French will see much more ghettoization than they otherwise would.

[Valmy]

Lower class muslim immigrants and their descendants from Algérie and Liban still cannot understand that the only way to be part of French society is too shed anything from before immigrations, starting with religion. The French while having accepted these refugees from their even more crazy brethrens don't actually consider them French. There is only 2 option in French society : Getthoization or Assimilation.

I expect that given that stark a choice, the French will see much more ghettoization than they otherwise would.

Indeed.  But most are assimilating, I wish the French would relax a bit about it but then I can hardly talk.  We have lots of people in this country incredibly irrational about immigration and we have centuries of continued and constant success in this area.

[Malthus]

Lower class muslim immigrants and their descendants from Algérie and Liban still cannot understand that the only way to be part of French society is too shed anything from before immigrations, starting with religion. The French while having accepted these refugees from their even more crazy brethrens don't actually consider them French. There is only 2 option in French society : Getthoization or Assimilation.

The fact is that many people, given that choice, are likely to choose ghettoization - because people have pride, rightly or wrongly, in their heritage. Being given that choice will make them angry and convince them that "the other" is the enemy.

If you really want to assimilate a people, don't attack that pride.

Look at the experience of Jews as an example. Thousands of years of attacks and (literal) ghetto-ization in Europe failed to assimilate the Jews, in spite of the fact that the Christian Church put considerable resources towards converting them, and the personal rewards of assimilating were great.

In North America, where few could care less about Jews, Jews are in serious danger of disappearing altogether as a group through assimilation.

[Jacob]

Well I do not know Yi's reasoning.  I was saying we should wait in good faith to see what he has to say about it before declaring it equivalent to something else.  If you do not know his reasoning how can you declare it absurd and apply it other places?  I was not sure what he was getting at either but I took exception to where Raz was going.

I'm not getting in between you and raz

[Valmy]

not getting in between you and raz

Raz and I called it off due to mutual incomprehension

[Grey Fox]

Lower class muslim immigrants and their descendants from Algérie and Liban still cannot understand that the only way to be part of French society is too shed anything from before immigrations, starting with religion. The French while having accepted these refugees from their even more crazy brethrens don't actually consider them French. There is only 2 option in French society : Getthoization or Assimilation.

The fact is that many people, given that choice, are likely to choose ghettoization - because people have pride, rightly or wrongly, in their heritage. Being given that choice will make them angry and convince them that "the other" is the enemy.

If you really want to assimilate a people, don't attack that pride.

Look at the experience of Jews as an example. Thousands of years of attacks and (literal) ghetto-ization in Europe failed to assimilate the Jews, in spite of the fact that the Christian Church put considerable resources towards converting them, and the personal rewards of assimilating were great.

In North America, where few could care less about Jews, Jews are in serious danger of disappearing altogether as a group through assimilation.

Small wall but a wall nonethe less. Next time don't forget to break down my quote line by line.

[Malthus]

Small wall but a wall nonethe less. Next time don't forget to break down my quote line by line.

Hey, I'm boring you as fast as I can. 

[Grey Fox]

Lower class muslim immigrants and their descendants from Algérie and Liban still cannot understand that the only way to be part of French society is too shed anything from before immigrations, starting with religion. The French while having accepted these refugees from their even more crazy brethrens don't actually consider them French. There is only 2 option in French society : Getthoization or Assimilation.

The fact is that many people, given that choice, are likely to choose ghettoization - because people have pride, rightly or wrongly, in their heritage. Being given that choice will make them angry and convince them that "the other" is the enemy.

If you really want to assimilate a people, don't attack that pride.

Look at the experience of Jews as an example. Thousands of years of attacks and (literal) ghetto-ization in Europe failed to assimilate the Jews, in spite of the fact that the Christian Church put considerable resources towards converting them, and the personal rewards of assimilating were great.

In North America, where few could care less about Jews, Jews are in serious danger of disappearing altogether as a group through assimilation.

True but this is being driven by fear. Fear of the jews (in many forms) led eventually to the shoa.

[Jacob]

True but this is being driven by fear. Fear of the jews (in many forms) led eventually to the shoa.

Seems that a fair bit of the anti-Muslim legislation is being driven by fear as well.

[Grey Fox]

True but this is being driven by fear. Fear of the jews (in many forms) led eventually to the shoa.

Seems that a fair bit of the anti-Muslim legislation is being driven by fear as well.

Yes. My point, exactly.

[merithyn]

Lower class muslim immigrants and their descendants from Algérie and Liban still cannot understand that the only way to be part of French society is too shed anything from before immigrations, starting with religion. The French while having accepted these refugees from their even more crazy brethrens don't actually consider them French. There is only 2 option in French society : Getthoization or Assimilation.

See, I made this point, and Valmy is disappointed in me. You, he agrees with. 

[grumbler]

Um rejecting your absurd requirements that go way beyond any standard I have ever heard of before in my life does not prove the absurd hypothesis that all religions fail to distinguish between politics and religion.  I bet they have similarities and differences in how they view the relationship between politics and religion.

Islam has an entire set of laws, which some Muslims believe comprise the only laws a nation or society needs to have.  I don't know of any "Christian" (or Buddhist, or whatever) set of laws about divorce, property rights, inheritance, child custody, criminal trial and punishment, etc, etc.  To imply, however, that "Muslims don't distinguish between politics and religion" is to go too far, however.  Many Muslims believe that the concepts behind Sharia law are valid as moral precepts, but that the law of the land should be secular (and thus recognize a distinction between religion and politics).  Others believe that Sharia should be binding on Muslims but not on non-Muslims, and thus believe in a limited separation between politics and religion.  Others believe Sharia is divine law binding on everyone, and thus reject the separation of politics and religion.

I'd say that it is easy to generalize about a religion from extreme examples while ignoring counter-evidence (see that argument that non-Catholics are magical thinkers while Catholics are not).  It doesn't seem very useful, though.

[Valmy]

Lower class muslim immigrants and their descendants from Algérie and Liban still cannot understand that the only way to be part of French society is too shed anything from before immigrations, starting with religion. The French while having accepted these refugees from their even more crazy brethrens don't actually consider them French. There is only 2 option in French society : Getthoization or Assimilation.

See, I made this point, and Valmy is disappointed in me. You, he agrees with. 

That is not what you said.