Socialism

[crazy canuck]

Ok Yi.  I have no interest in having an internet fight with you over something like this.  This is where I make my money.  But I am sure you know best.

Damn, just when your faith and contempt were *this* close to winning me over too.

I have no interest in winning you over.  Your ideology is far too strong for such a thing to work.  Trying to convince you that money is not always the answer would be like trying to reform Marti into a decent human being.

[Berkut]

Depends in the motives of the researchers, and how careful they are - although I am unsure how their keen insight could adjust for such a thing. I would not simply assume that it could by magic.

Well you are certainly willing to assume they are inept.  Perhaps this has something to do with your own bias? 

I am not aware I have any bias on the issue of the ability of people taking surveys to get people to state the reasons they do the things they do.

Could you just cite the actual research, so we can take a look, rather that trying to impugn the motives of the people who are asking for your source?

[Berkut]

I suspect that what such research really shows is that the reason given for the desire to unionize is the need to protect themselves from assholes.

I also suspect that the actual reason is for monetary gain.

You can't really trust survey's when the people being asked have a vested interest in the survey's results.

Well... when I was younger I was instrumental in leading a union drive at the place of my work. I was the guy who reached out to several unions to see if any of them wanted to help organize us; I was the guy who met with the union reps to get the campaign started; and I was the guy who got the organizing drive going. We got enough support (majority) to start the certification process too - United Steelworkers of America, as a matter of fact.

I can tell you that my personal motivation - as well as the arguments we used to convince our coworkers - had nothing to do with monetary gain, and everything to do with the relationship to management. That was the actual reason. Our bargaining position for our first round of contract negotiation did not involve any monetary gain.

Don't worry, though, the story has a happy ending from your perspective - management's anti-union campaign was eventually successful and we got decertified, though by that time I'd left for my first job in the gaming industry.

That is all dandy, but doesn't speak to the issue at all. Anecdotes rarely do when the issue is claims made about the results of statistical surveys.

[crazy canuck]

This is the sort of thing that in the academic literature and so not easy to link with a google search to wiki.  If you guys are interested by all means go look it up.

If you have no interest and simply want to reject anything that does not conform to your existing belief system then that is also fine with me.

[Eddie Teach]

I'm not a member of a union, but it's not because I want less money.

It's a bit of a gamble anyway. You know you'll be out the money for dues, and are betting that the union will make up for it.

[Admiral Yi]

Our bargaining position for our first round of contract negotiation did not involve any monetary gain.

What about subsequent rounds?

[Jacob]

That is all dandy, but doesn't speak to the issue at all. Anecdotes rarely do when the issue is claims made about the results of statistical surveys.

Certainly, proper studies of significant data is much more valid than anecdotal data. You, however, have offered neither.

[Admiral Yi]

I have no interest in winning you over.  Your ideology is far too strong for such a thing to work.  Trying to convince you that money is not always the answer would be like trying to reform Marti into a decent human being.

Are there other posters who hope to win over with repeated expressions of faith and contempt?  Less biased, ideologically-blinkered posters perhaps?

[Jacob]

Our bargaining position for our first round of contract negotiation did not involve any monetary gain.

What about subsequent rounds?

Like I told you, the the bargaining unit eventually got decertified. There were no subsequent rounds.

[Jacob]

1: Increase in time at work = increased productivity.

2: All matters of work satisfaction and productivity can ultimately and usefully be reduced to monetary value.

#2 at least has the advantage of being CC's misrepresentation of my position.  #1 is completely out of left field.

Then I apologize for misunderstanding you, though I'd suggest that maybe you communicated with less than 100% clarity.

[crazy canuck]

I have no interest in winning you over.  Your ideology is far too strong for such a thing to work.  Trying to convince you that money is not always the answer would be like trying to reform Marti into a decent human being.

Are there other posters who hope to win over with repeated expressions of faith and contempt?  Less biased, ideologically-blinkered posters perhaps?

No.  I was merely intending to relate a piece of knowledge to you.  You and Berk have rejected it for your given reasons.  I have no interest in attempting to dismantle your ideoligical view of the world for the reasons already given.

The only person I would care to convince is someone who lives in this jurisdiction as the way they vote matters to me.  Jacob already seems to accept the premise so I need not press the matter further. 

[Eddie Teach]

The only person I would care to convince is someone who lives in this jurisdiction as the way they vote matters to me.  Jacob already seems to accept the premise so I need not press the matter further.

If you convince somebody in a different jurisdiction, they may go on to convince a dozen people in yours.

[Berkut]

This is the sort of thing that in the academic literature and so not easy to link with a google search to wiki.  If you guys are interested by all means go look it up.

If you have no interest and simply want to reject anything that does not conform to your existing belief system then that is also fine with me.

Ahh,  so you make a claim, I question the applicability, and the only options are "Look up my claim yourself" and "You are just rejecting anything I say!"

Are you sure there isn't some other possibilities in there?

[11B4V]

 

[crazy canuck]

The only person I would care to convince is someone who lives in this jurisdiction as the way they vote matters to me.  Jacob already seems to accept the premise so I need not press the matter further.

If you convince somebody in a different jurisdiction, they may go on to convince a dozen people in yours.

There is some chance of that.  But I think it highly unlikely that Yi or Berkut, given their particular political views, would have any impact at all on someone from BC.  Just as someone from BC would likely have zero chance of influencing the political views of someone living in their areas.

Time and again, it is readily apparent that our cultural/political viewpoints are too far separated for any meaningful influence.  But that is one of the things that makes Languish interesting.

I hear things like "money is the only way to create an incentive for productivity" and that is just so foriegn that it is at least interesting to explore the depths of the conviction of that kind of belief.