Socialism

[Berkut]

Yi, given your hate for unions, you might want to consider that the main reason employees unionize is not for monetary gain.  A lot of research has shown that the main reason is that employees feel they need from protection from asshole managers.

I suspect that what such research really shows is that the reason given for the desire to unionize is the need to protect themselves from assholes.

I also suspect that the actual reason is for monetary gain.

You can't really trust survey's when the people being asked have a vested interest in the survey's results.

[crazy canuck]

Yi, given your hate for unions, you might want to consider that the main reason employees unionize is not for monetary gain.  A lot of research has shown that the main reason is that employees feel they need from protection from asshole managers.

I suspect that what such research really shows is that the reason given for the desire to unionize is the need to protect themselves from assholes.

I also suspect that the actual reason is for monetary gain.

You can't really trust survey's when the people being asked have a vested interest in the survey's results.

Yeah, because I am sure the researchers lack your keen wit and insight and have no idea how to properly structure their research to take into account inaccurate self reports.

[Berkut]

Yi, given your hate for unions, you might want to consider that the main reason employees unionize is not for monetary gain.  A lot of research has shown that the main reason is that employees feel they need from protection from asshole managers.

I suspect that what such research really shows is that the reason given for the desire to unionize is the need to protect themselves from assholes.

I also suspect that the actual reason is for monetary gain.

You can't really trust survey's when the people being asked have a vested interest in the survey's results.

Yeah, because I am sure the researchers lack your keen wit and insight and have no idea how to properly structure their research to take into account inaccurate self reports.

Depends in the motives of the researchers, and how careful they are - although I am unsure how their keen insight could adjust for such a thing. I would not simply assume that it could by magic.

Unless the research you are citing is NOT in fact a survey, but rather some objective evaluation of union actions in order to make inferences about what the motives of organizaing? That would be very challenging, I think.

Of course, one way to illuminate the issue a bit - just cite the actual research, and we can take a look at how they reached their conclusions.

So, where is this research you are referencing?

[Admiral Yi]

Really? Seems pretty clear to me - your management philosophy as you've laid it out seems counter-productive to me, so I wouldn't want to be subjected to it or introduce it into any organization over whichI had control.

What is it abou my "management philosophy" that you believe is counter-productive?

[crazy canuck]

The other thing for both Berk and Yi to consider is that the number one union avoidance strategy non union companies use to keep themselves union free is to set up systems which provide employees input into decision making and procedures under which asshat managers can be dealt with.

At least within jurisdictions where unionization is a viable option.  I suppose if you live in a jurisdiction which has laws which make unionization either very difficult or which diminishes the power of unions then the employer will not care as much and they are free to live under the Yi mantra that the only thing that matters is money.

[crazy canuck]

Depends in the motives of the researchers, and how careful they are - although I am unsure how their keen insight could adjust for such a thing. I would not simply assume that it could by magic.

Well you are certainly willing to assume they are inept.  Perhaps this has something to do with your own bias? 

[Admiral Yi]

Yeah, because I am sure the researchers lack your keen wit and insight and have no idea how to properly structure their research to take into account inaccurate self reports.

Getting people to reveal unpleasant truths in a survey is no easy thing, and I seriously doubt that the people who conducted the surveys you're referring to made the effort.

I'm willing to bet they just asked the question and recorded the answer.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, because I am sure the researchers lack your keen wit and insight and have no idea how to properly structure their research to take into account inaccurate self reports.

Getting people to reveal unpleasant truths in a survey is no easy thing, and I seriously doubt that the people who conducted the surveys you're referring to made the effort.

I'm willing to bet they just asked the question and recorded the answer.

Yeah, you would never want to reconsider your own bias.

[Jacob]

I suspect that what such research really shows is that the reason given for the desire to unionize is the need to protect themselves from assholes.

I also suspect that the actual reason is for monetary gain.

You can't really trust survey's when the people being asked have a vested interest in the survey's results.

Well... when I was younger I was instrumental in leading a union drive at the place of my work. I was the guy who reached out to several unions to see if any of them wanted to help organize us; I was the guy who met with the union reps to get the campaign started; and I was the guy who got the organizing drive going. We got enough support (majority) to start the certification process too - United Steelworkers of America, as a matter of fact.

I can tell you that my personal motivation - as well as the arguments we used to convince our coworkers - had nothing to do with monetary gain, and everything to do with the relationship to management. That was the actual reason. Our bargaining position for our first round of contract negotiation did not involve any monetary gain.

Don't worry, though, the story has a happy ending from your perspective - management's anti-union campaign was eventually successful and we got decertified, though by that time I'd left for my first job in the gaming industry.

[Admiral Yi]

Yeah, you would never want to reconsider your own bias.

I would want to reconsider my bias on a nonstop basis, and do so constantly.

On the other hand you don't seem to be advancing any actual arguments other than your own faith and your contempt for people who hold opinions different from your own.

[Jacob]

What is it abou my "management philosophy" that you believe is counter-productive?

1: Increase in time at work = increased productivity.

2: All matters of work satisfaction and productivity can ultimately and usefully be reduced to monetary value.

[crazy canuck]

Yeah, you would never want to reconsider your own bias.

I would want to reconsider my bias on a nonstop basis, and do so constantly.

On the other hand you don't seem to be advancing any actual arguments other than your own faith and your contempt for people who hold opinions different from your own.

Ok Yi.  I have no interest in having an internet fight with you over something like this.  This is where I make my money.  But I am sure you know best.

[Admiral Yi]

1: Increase in time at work = increased productivity.

2: All matters of work satisfaction and productivity can ultimately and usefully be reduced to monetary value.

#2 at least has the advantage of being CC's misrepresentation of my position.  #1 is completely out of left field.

[Admiral Yi]

Ok Yi.  I have no interest in having an internet fight with you over something like this.  This is where I make my money.  But I am sure you know best.

Damn, just when your faith and contempt were *this* close to winning me over too.

[Warspite]

I'm not a member of a union, but it's not because I want less money.